Joe Paterno Dies

[Enigma869]

Looks like it's official this time.


http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ncer-fight

[YoungJRNY]

A very sad ending to such a CLASSIC and LEGENDARY career. RIP JOE PA! Thoughts go out to Paterno's family as well as the students and alumni of Penn State University.

[Ehwmatt]

I knew Paterno wasn't long for this world even before he announced the lung cancer. Like those stories you hear of an old couple dying within months of each other, Paterno lost his will live to live when he lost football. Unfortunately, I don't think history is going to be kind to him. This scandal was just too big and too heinous.

[ebake02]

[steveo777]

Jerry Sandusky is what killed JoePa. Admit it. There is no way this man could have lived with the fallout from this scandal. I believed it accelerated his death.

RIP Joe

[Red13JoePa]

Will Sandy be at the funeral?

He will try to be....he already released a fuckin statement!!!!! Of all the crazy things.

[Michigan Girl]

So sad it had to end this way ...
A true legend and a class act from beginning to end.
My heart is heavy for his family and Happy Valley.

[ebake02]

Can't believe Westboro plans to protest his funeral. All I have to say is they had better say a prayer for themselves. They should know not to poke a lion with a stick, especially a lion that is willing to fiercely defend what they hold near and dear to their heart.

[Red13JoePa]

Yea there will be trouble if that scum decides to invade.

They will blink I have to think.

[donnaplease]

I knew Paterno wasn't long for this world even before he announced the lung cancer. Like those stories you hear of an old couple dying within months of each other, Paterno lost his will live to live when he lost football. Unfortunately, I don't think history is going to be kind to him. This scandal was just too big and too heinous.

I said the exact same thing, Matt. Aren't we brilliant? Then again, would've been happy to be wrong about this one...

[Red13JoePa]

Yep once I read the word "treatable" in the family's press release I went "uh oh."

[Enigma869]

I'm just sad that it all ended the way it did for Joe. I will say this, and I suspect I'm in the minority here. That said, it's tough to overlook the fact that the guy presided over the biggest scandal in the history of college football. That doesn't mean I'm an advocate of scumbags picketing his funeral or pissing on his grave. I think Joe Paterno was a decent man who made mistakes. I'm simply not willing to overlook the fact that children were abused on his watch. He did the absolute minimum that was required, but he is a guy who always did more than what was required in every other facet of life, so he needed to be held to a higher standard. At the very minimum, it's simply inexcusable that he didn't fire that sick fuck, Sandusky, given the knowledge he had about what Sandusky was doing. I think Paterno deserved to be fired. I understand those connected to Penn State viewed the guy as an iconic God, and believe that he could do no wrong. It doesn't alter what the sad reality is. I believe Joe did a lot of great things in his life and had a positive impact on countless lives. I also believe that he made the most egregious error, EVER, when he decided to keep Sandusky on his staff. If he fired the guy immediately, none of this would be on his hands, at all, and his legacy would remain unblemished.

[Red13JoePa]

Joe said he didn't know a thing about Sandusky's alleged predilections until 2002, though, 3 years after he stopped working for Joe.

[Enigma869]

Joe said he didn't know a thing about Sandusky's alleged predilections until 2002, though, 3 years after he stopped working for Joe.

That, I wasn't aware of. The reports I have heard were that he did know and kept the guy on his staff. If that's the case, I would feel a whole lot better about Joe. I always liked the guy and always believed that he did things the right way in the world of college football, where things are almost never done the right way.

[Red13JoePa]

Joe said he didn't know a thing about Sandusky's alleged predilections until 2002, though, 3 years after he stopped working for Joe.

That, I wasn't aware of. The reports I have heard were that he did know and kept the guy on his staff. If that's the case, I would feel a whole lot better about Joe. I always liked the guy and always believed that he did things the right way in the world of college football, where things are almost never done the right way.

A lot of people aren't aware of a lot of what did or didn't go down, especially in the media who has tried and closed Joe's case in public.

However, John, I like you, will be very disapointed if we never find out that Joe did more than just kick Mcqueary's story up to Curley/Schultz once and left it at that. Right NOW, that is what we know he did, though.

[Rockindeano]

Joe said he didn't know a thing about Sandusky's alleged predilections until 2002, though, 3 years after he stopped working for Joe.

That, I wasn't aware of. The reports I have heard were that he did know and kept the guy on his staff. If that's the case, I would feel a whole lot better about Joe. I always liked the guy and always believed that he did things the right way in the world of college football, where things are almost never done the right way.

A lot of people aren't aware of a lot of what did or didn't go down, especially in the media who has tried and closed Joe's case in public.

However, John, I like you, will be very disapointed if we never find out that Joe did more than just kick Mcqueary's story up to Curley/Schultz once and left it at that. Right NOW, that is what we know he did, though.

Sorry Ben. Joe must be judged on his ENTIRE time on Earth. Sure he was great coach, a great leader, made his kids go to class and graduate, but a man of his stature, through his own success, he raised the bar, and that bar was unfortunately not meant with the Sandusky issue. He messed up, and there is NO debating that. You seem to be making the case the "entire story hasn't come out yet." Sorry, we know enough- Enough to know what he did do- and that was simply reporting what was told to him to an higher up. Sorry, while that may be "legally good enough," it sure as Hell isn't good enough for a great man, and a man of Paterno's stature. I have NO doubt he died knowing he could have and should have done more. Instead of grieving for JoePa's death, think about the dozens of little boys who had their innocence striiped from them by a member of Paterno's staff, who he KEPT ON THE THE FUCKING STAFF AFTER KNOWING WHAT HE WAS TOLD. Man, I loved the old guy too, but sorry, this scandal is the biggest, darkest scandal in sports history, and he could have done so much more....maybe and probably stopped more assrapings. Goddammit, open your eyes and put aside your fucking stupid PSU alegiance- these boys were violated by a demon, a demon employed and NOT fired by Mr. Paterno.

I am sick of the PSU community crying over this. There is absolutely NO doubt Joe knew about what he knew, and certainly could have and should have done more; a LOT MORE.

[Ehwmatt]

I'm just sad that it all ended the way it did for Joe. I will say this, and I suspect I'm in the minority here. That said, it's tough to overlook the fact that the guy presided over the biggest scandal in the history of college football. That doesn't mean I'm an advocate of scumbags picketing his funeral or pissing on his grave. I think Joe Paterno was a decent man who made mistakes. I'm simply not willing to overlook the fact that children were abused on his watch. He did the absolute minimum that was required, but he is a guy who always did more than what was required in every other facet of life, so he needed to be held to a higher standard. At the very minimum, it's simply inexcusable that he didn't fire that sick fuck, Sandusky, given the knowledge he had about what Sandusky was doing. I think Paterno deserved to be fired. I understand those connected to Penn State viewed the guy as an iconic God, and believe that he could do no wrong. It doesn't alter what the sad reality is. I believe Joe did a lot of great things in his life and had a positive impact on countless lives. I also believe that he made the most egregious error, EVER, when he decided to keep Sandusky on his staff. If he fired the guy immediately, none of this would be on his hands, at all, and his legacy would remain unblemished.

You pretty much summed up my EXACT feelings (although I woulda used a paragraph break or two, lol). The merits of what he did and didn't do are played out (at least on the facts we know, and perhaps it's all we'll ever know given Joe's passing), so I'm not interested in discussing that. But:

It is an absolute shame that he will end up being viewed and remembered the way he will be remembered, even after all the good he also apparently did.

I think the whole thing is a nice little lesson for anybody in a leadership, management, executive, or publicly visible position of power and authority: don't overstay your welcome/your advancing age in the interest of maintaining power. Joe should have retired no later than 2001 when he broke Bear Bryant's record (against a powerhouse OSU program, no less). Had he done that, continued to be a presence in State College (which he presumably loved), and contributing to the university and the community, he would have dodged the very worst of this scandal.

Ultimately, I do believe Paterno was a good man, and not a wolf in sheep's clothing. But I believe that like all of us, he had at least one serious flaw: his love of power and authority attendant to being THE face of not only Penn State football, but also Penn State university and State College/Happy Valley at large.

He just couldn't let go when his legend was at its highest, and the law of averages shows that if you stick around long enough in a position like this, something bad is bound to happen. Best case scenario, the program takes a nosedive, mid-case scenario you simply burn out or lose the sharpness or skills that led you to success in the first place (think a lot of these old bands that are getting worse by the year, e.g., Journey), and worst case scenario, you preside over a monumental scandal like this.

[Red13JoePa]

Dan dug this up:

"Should you call the police yourself? You, with possibly the most widely recognized face -- and voice -- in Pennsylvania? You call and they'll recognize you, even if you call anonymously. And the story will get out, because it always does (as it did now). And it will be, "Joe Paterno called the police to report sexual assault of a minor." Well, on whom was he reporting? That road leads back to Sandusky. And even if he's innocent, he's destroyed.

And the media would still crucify you. You can just imagine the questioning:

Reporter: So, you reported the sexual assault?

Paterno: Yes.

Reporter: Can you describe what you saw?

Paterno I didn't see anything.

Reporter: What?

Paterno: My graduate assistant told me about it.

Reporter: He told you about it?

Paterno: Yes.

Reporter: But you didn't see it yourself?

Paterno: I did not.

Reporter: Did anyone else tell you about it?

Paterno: No.

Reporter: So you turned in a man for sexual assault of a minor solely on the word of one of your graduate assistants?
The questioning would likely go downhill from there.

How about calling child welfare? The child abuse hotline? Same problem -- you'd be recognized and the story would get out -- further complicated by the fact that you don't know the identity of the child involved.

You see where I'm going with this. You, Joe Paterno, are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Look at what I've presented above. Look at the scenarios. In my opinion, there is no easy answer for Paterno. What he did here is understandable, rational and reasonable under the circumstances.

In this situation, Paterno was in over his head, and he knew it. He turned it over to people who had the authority and the expertise to investigate it and pursue it as far as it needed to go. That they did not and instead covered it up is not on Paterno. He did what he was supposed to do. If he had tried to go further ... well, you saw above what probably would have happened.

Now, you may say, "The easy answer is to do what's best for the children." I understand that, whatever that means. But my question to you is, "What if Sandusky is innocent?"

Based on the grand jury presentment and the charges of multiple incidents, it looks like the chances of Sandusky being innocent are slim. But, based on what I've seen so far, that is not what Joe Paterno knew or was told. He saw nothing. He was told of a single incident witnessed by a single assistant coach.

The assistant's allegation is obviously extremely serious, but it's also slim on the evidence. Maybe McQueary was somehow mistaken in what he saw. What if Sandusky is innocent?

The bosses at Penn State could see if there is more evidence to either prove or disprove the charge here -- question Sandusky, find the child, etc. But that is not something Joe Paterno could do. He is a football coach.

That the Penn State administration allegedly did not is inexcusable. But that is not on Joe Paterno.

I know I'm probably in a minority position on this one. But just give it some thought. Paterno's case is not as easy as it it being made out to be."

[Michigan Girl]

Joe said he didn't know a thing about Sandusky's alleged predilections until 2002, though, 3 years after he stopped working for Joe.

That, I wasn't aware of. The reports I have heard were that he did know and kept the guy on his staff. If that's the case, I would feel a whole lot better about Joe. I always liked the guy and always believed that he did things the right way in the world of college football, where things are almost never done the right way.

A lot of people aren't aware of a lot of what did or didn't go down, especially in the media who has tried and closed Joe's case in public.

However, John, I like you, will be very disapointed if we never find out that Joe did more than just kick Mcqueary's story up to Curley/Schultz once and left it at that. Right NOW, that is what we know he did, though.

Sorry Ben. Joe must be judged on his ENTIRE time on Earth. Sure he was great coach, a great leader, made his kids go to class and graduate, but a man of his stature, through his own success, he raised the bar, and that bar was unfortunately not meant with the Sandusky issue. He messed up, and there is NO debating that. You seem to be making the case the "entire story hasn't come out yet." Sorry, we know enough- Enough to know what he did do- and that was simply reporting what was told to him to an higher up. Sorry, while that may be "legally good enough," it sure as Hell isn't good enough for a great man, and a man of Paterno's stature. I have NO doubt he died knowing he could have and should have done more. Instead of grieving for JoePa's death, think about the dozens of little boys who had their innocence striiped from them by a member of Paterno's staff, who he KEPT ON THE THE FUCKING STAFF AFTER KNOWING WHAT HE WAS TOLD. Man, I loved the old guy too, but sorry, this scandal is the biggest, darkest scandal in sports history, and he could have done so much more....maybe and probably stopped more assrapings. Goddammit, open your eyes and put aside your fucking stupid PSU alegiance- these boys were violated by a demon, a demon employed and NOT fired by Mr. Paterno.

I am sick of the PSU community crying over this. There is absolutely NO doubt Joe knew about what he knew, and certainly could have and should have done more; a LOT MORE.

This is bullshit!! #1 Sandusky NO LONGER worked for Joepa. #2 He could not and would not have saved anyone.
The police were not able to stop Sandusky, a parent confronting Sandusky was unable to stop Sandusky, and I'm convinced, nothing but death can/will stop a
a child predator (alleged). Sandusky, the alleged rapist, is not good enough for you people ...you're reaching, reacting out of anger for the victims, it's normal!!

[Michigan Girl]

Dan dug this up:

"Should you call the police yourself? You, with possibly the most widely recognized face -- and voice -- in Pennsylvania? You call and they'll recognize you, even if you call anonymously. And the story will get out, because it always does (as it did now). And it will be, "Joe Paterno called the police to report sexual assault of a minor." Well, on whom was he reporting? That road leads back to Sandusky. And even if he's innocent, he's destroyed.

And the media would still crucify you. You can just imagine the questioning:

Reporter: So, you reported the sexual assault?

Paterno: Yes.

Reporter: Can you describe what you saw?

Paterno I didn't see anything.

Reporter: What?

Paterno: My graduate assistant told me about it.

Reporter: He told you about it?

Paterno: Yes.

Reporter: But you didn't see it yourself?

Paterno: I did not.

Reporter: Did anyone else tell you about it?

Paterno: No.

Reporter: So you turned in a man for sexual assault of a minor solely on the word of one of your graduate assistants?
The questioning would likely go downhill from there.

How about calling child welfare? The child abuse hotline? Same problem -- you'd be recognized and the story would get out -- further complicated by the fact that you don't know the identity of the child involved.

You see where I'm going with this. You, Joe Paterno, are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Look at what I've presented above. Look at the scenarios. In my opinion, there is no easy answer for Paterno. What he did here is understandable, rational and reasonable under the circumstances.

In this situation, Paterno was in over his head, and he knew it. He turned it over to people who had the authority and the expertise to investigate it and pursue it as far as it needed to go. That they did not and instead covered it up is not on Paterno. He did what he was supposed to do. If he had tried to go further ... well, you saw above what probably would have happened.

Now, you may say, "The easy answer is to do what's best for the children." I understand that, whatever that means. But my question to you is, "What if Sandusky is innocent?"

Based on the grand jury presentment and the charges of multiple incidents, it looks like the chances of Sandusky being innocent are slim. But, based on what I've seen so far, that is not what Joe Paterno knew or was told. He saw nothing. He was told of a single incident witnessed by a single assistant coach.

The assistant's allegation is obviously extremely serious, but it's also slim on the evidence. Maybe McQueary was somehow mistaken in what he saw. What if Sandusky is innocent?

The bosses at Penn State could see if there is more evidence to either prove or disprove the charge here -- question Sandusky, find the child, etc. But that is not something Joe Paterno could do. He is a football coach.

That the Penn State administration allegedly did not is inexcusable. But that is not on Joe Paterno.

I know I'm probably in a minority position on this one. But just give it some thought. Paterno's case is not as easy as it it being made out to be."

Interesting indeed!!
Just as DA Gricar did not have enough evidence to prosecute
Sandusky in 1998 despite an alleged confession, testimony by two law
enforcement officers and an extensive investigation, because, and I quote ...
"If you're going to target someone, you really work very hard to be sure
you have a case because if you don't, you could end up ruining someone's
reputation and livelihood"

[Ehwmatt]

The JoePa apologists (and critics, for that matter) are really quite silly getting into the merits ONCE AGAIN of what Joe did and didn't know/do. The fact of the matter is this: Sandusky, a highly touted defensive coordinator at a powerhouse program, retires in his early 50s (despite having several kids... gross) and never goes elsewhere?

Something tells me that a LOT of people knew this guy was "off" long before anyone knew of these allegations.

So, I really doubt ignorance played much of a role at all in this, except maybe willful ignorance.

[Michigan Girl]

The fact of the matter is this: Sandusky,

Smartest thing said since this whole thing went down ...

[Ehwmatt]

The fact of the matter is this: Sandusky,

Smartest thing said since this whole thing went down ...

This is a really hard case to digest, especially thinking about the other players like Paterno and McQueary (Sandusky is unequivocally a monster, no debating or hard thinking needed there). See my longer post above about Paterno.

But I'm really wondering if any JoePa loyalists feel like I do: the guy should have let go of his beloved position long before this scandal reached its height. I wonder if the loyalists will at least admit that if nothing else, he was flawed in wanting to maintain his power grip on the football program, the university, and the community and that ultimately, that brought his legacy down (and believe me, this will forever tarnish his image in a big way).

[Red13JoePa]

[ But I'm really wondering if any JoePa loyalists feel like I do: the guy should have let go of his beloved position long before this scandal reached its height. I wonder if the loyalists will at least admit that if nothing else, he was flawed in wanting to maintain his power grip on the football program, the university, and the community and that ultimately, that brought his legacy down (and believe me, this will forever tarnish his image in a big way).

In answer I'm torn on this. Part of me says yest but part says since 2004 he had righted the ship and they were back to making runs at the title again periodically (05, 08, Kinda 09).

[Michigan Girl]

But I'm really wondering if any JoePa loyalists feel like I do: the guy should have let go of his beloved position long before this scandal reached its height. I wonder if the loyalists will at least admit that if nothing else, he was flawed in wanting to maintain his power grip on the football program, the university, and the community and that ultimately, that brought his legacy down (and believe me, this will forever tarnish his image in a big way).

As far as the football/coaching is concerned, I'm w/Red, just when you thought they were down for the count, Bam, they were back.

He may have been guilty of being addicted to the power/adoration/respect, who wouldn't be ...but I viewed his involvement more as an old man loving
what he did and without it, what?!? He made PSU his life, a lot of people cease living upon retirement. I certainly don't think that
he felt he had anything to run from. But in hindsight, would his absence from the field have kept his name out of this mess?! IMO, NO ...'tis
the media who made this what it is, Paterno's part in it anyway. Who knows!!

[hoagiepete]

Can't believe Westboro plans to protest his funeral. All I have to say is they had better say a prayer for themselves. They should know not to poke a lion with a stick, especially a lion that is willing to fiercely defend what they hold near and dear to their heart.

Please ignore them.

[Rockindeano]

The JoePa apologists (and critics, for that matter) are really quite silly getting into the merits ONCE AGAIN of what Joe did and didn't know/do. The fact of the matter is this: Sandusky, a highly touted defensive coordinator at a powerhouse program, retires in his early 50s (despite having several kids... gross) and never goes elsewhere?

Something tells me that a LOT of people knew this guy was "off" long before anyone knew of these allegations.

So, I really doubt ignorance played much of a role at all in this, except maybe willful ignorance.

Are you insinuating other programs, coaches, etc knew of the problems at Happy Valley? You think Switzer down in Norman knew of this? You think Bo knew in Ann Arbor? I am seriously asking. If you are suggesting this, it does make sense. The fraternity of head coaches and staffs for that matter in NCAA is a pretty close knit family.

[Ehwmatt]

The JoePa apologists (and critics, for that matter) are really quite silly getting into the merits ONCE AGAIN of what Joe did and didn't know/do. The fact of the matter is this: Sandusky, a highly touted defensive coordinator at a powerhouse program, retires in his early 50s (despite having several kids... gross) and never goes elsewhere?

Something tells me that a LOT of people knew this guy was "off" long before anyone knew of these allegations.

So, I really doubt ignorance played much of a role at all in this, except maybe willful ignorance.

Are you insinuating other programs, coaches, etc knew of the problems at Happy Valley? You think Switzer down in Norman knew of this? You think Bo knew in Ann Arbor? I am seriously asking. If you are suggesting this, it does make sense. The fraternity of head coaches and staffs for that matter in NCAA is a pretty close knit family.

I don't think they knew the scope of the problems. I do suspect people in that tightknit community knew something was weird about Sandusky, and perhaps had even heard he "enjoyed" young people in a way that some found disturbing.

Think about it; you don't think people got wind of him flying certain boys down to bowl games and the like? I guarantee that people saw some things that were offputting and dismissed as merely being "weird," but I'll bet a lot of people's sixth senses were warning them about this fuckhead.

[Red13JoePa]

This was from an email battle Saint John and I and two other people were engaged in, reproduced with permission:
"I'll admit, this subject does get me upset. I see a good man being trashed and I won't sit idly fucking by and stand for it. For decades, Joe Paterno was "just a football coach." That's what everyone reminded us. And they were right, that is all he was. But as a football coach, he took it upon himself to go above and beyond his coaching duties and mold good kids, donate tirelessly, give back and exemplify what a good family man is. And no matter fucking what, you or anyone else can't take that away. There's no proof in what he "should have morally done." That's imaginative supposition and reeks of desperately trying to find a scapegoat. However, the proof about the man is in the facts ... and the facts show 5 very successful children, a wife of 50+ years, and a guy that, along with Sue, exemplified what a husband and wife should be. And he carried that over into the locker room, and, to a man, his players will tell you that.

Fast forward to the Sandusky allegations. Joe was the only person that did anything. Jerry Sandusky was investigated and later exonerated in 1998. Poof ... he retires from Joe's staff next year. Why didn't the DA warn people, make a stink or followup??? Why didn't the police that investigated the 1998 incident??? Why didn't Dottie come forward??? Why didn't his kids come forward??? How about 28 year old eye witness Mike McQueary???No ... you all want Joe ... the same Joe that was "just a football coach" to now conveniently be an omnipotent deity. You see, your jealousy, along with that of everyone else that tried to minimize everything he did for so long is very transparent. Joe was a civilian and "just a football coach when he did things right for 50 years, but you expect him to be Joe Omnipotent Sherlock Holmes Paterno when something went wrong. Minimal credit for all of the good, and all of the credit for everything bad. Then, in the most disgusting of manners, you hold the regrets ("In hindsight I wish I would have done more") against him! Had he said, "I did what I was supposed to" you and every other bar stool cowboy would have tarred and feathered him for that, too!

The minute Jerry Sandusky roped in his first victim this was ultimately going to fall on Joe, and there wasn't a fucking thing he could've done about it. You want proof??? Look no further than Jerry Sandusky, an alleged child rapist FORTY TIMES OVER, having one camera in front of his house, while Joe Paterno has a block's worth. The witch hunt was on from day one ... facts, Grand Jury testimony and evidence be damned. Ironically, Joe's life of decency and giving ultimately worked against him. But it didn't to me. If it walks like a great man, gives like a great man, graduates kids like a great man and reproduces offspring like a great man ... it's a fucking great man. And that's what Joe was ... from start to finish. And anyone that thinks otherwise can go suck Jerry Sandusky's old cock.

_________________

[Michigan Girl]

Excellent ...and imo, accurate!!