MR

So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?
And what's the format for a gig? How many sets are you expected to play each night? What time does a gig usually kick off and end?
How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?
Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?
Are the venues Bars? Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?
And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?
If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

I know its twenty questions, but I'm curious.


If we play a Club or Bar, it's either 3 x 30 minutes sets or 2 x 45 minutes.
A private function is usually 3 x 40 minutes of 'dinner music' plus either 1 x 60 minute or 2 x 45 of 'pop' to dance to.

The Agent takes 15% of the fee and we have to pay VAT of 20% on that 15%.
If we get a private booking, we don't have to pay anything to the Agent.

We couldn't make a living doing original stuff but we can make a living doing covers.
We get an average of three gigs a week.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.


So, generally, how's it work in the States and Countries other than the UK?

SusieP wrote:So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?

Well, for Connecticut...it's "Cover-Band Central:"

And what's the format for a gig?

Max. 3 sets

How many sets are you expected to play each night?

Please see above

What time does a gig usually kick off and end?

Right about 9, 9:30, 9:45

How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?

Well, if this is your WHOLE LIFE - you can make a decent living....as an excellent "tribute / oddity" Band.

Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?

Well, we market TRAG as an Original Band, but "...oh, yeah - we DO know kickass covers!"
You need to have that in my State.....or else, they won't even LOOK at you

Are the venues Bars?

Yup....or GLORIOUS places like "Toad's Place" in New Haven, CT...where HUGE BAND have played!
**shameless plug here** We are playing at Toad's Place on April 7th...email me at nora_104@yahoo.com for REDUCED ADMISSION TICKETS!!

Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?

HELL no....we're not a "Wedding Band"....I've done that....NEVER AGAIN

And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?

Nope...just SHEER WILL.

If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

NOTHING...it's aaaaallll ours.

Back when I was playing clubs in the 80's, usually it was three 50 minute sets. Usually started about 9pm and played till about 1am. We did play at the beach in Massachusetts and had to play SIX 50 minute sets. 3 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. My guitar was pretty heavy and my shoulder never recovered from it.

We also played a club in New York that had us start playing at 11pm and played til 3am .The only time we played there, there was a huge snowstorm and 3 people showed up. The owner felt bad and couldn't pay us our fee so he let us drink Alabama Slammers for free all night.

We mainly played covers. There was no money to be made playing original material. In fact, if you wanted to play originals, you would have to PAY some clubs to play there.

you coming over susie, taking the band on the road?

Lula wrote:you coming over susie, taking the band on the road?

Probably not after she reads the last two posts. It is really sad, and it's gotten much worse with the economy. I have many friends who play out and the places that used to pay $400- $500 per night for a band now want to pay $200- $300. Many of them switch to the karaoke thing so they don't have to pay for entertainment and get shitloads of drinking customers in the door who think they're the next Steve Perry.

Many clubs are also trying to find solo acoustic acts so they can give them $75-$100 a night. What irks the hell out of me is that if you're a decent band who brings 40-50 people to a show, that's all profit for bars. The two main bands I played in would draw anywhere from 100-300 people every time we played. The bars made a TON of money because most of our friends were heavy drinkers. With that said, many places would only pay $300 and free beer. By the time you set up all of the equipment, do a sound check, play for 3 hours, load all of the gear, $300 for 6 people and a sound guy is a fucking crime!!! Hell, we probably made those bars $2000 just off of our regulars and friends!!!

Pretty sad time to be in a working band...

No plans to come over.
My passport expired in 1999! And we're broke. Living week to week as best we can.

And we are really struggling to make ends meet over here. And the venues really want their pound of flesh.
I was just wondering what its like for others in the same kind of work.


Sadly we can't make a full live band pay any more. Had to split into Duo's to make it pay.
My partner plays sax, drums, bongos, congas, keyboards and blues harp and sings backing vocals. I sing lead. Every song. ALL night.


But even though we have the basic piano and light drums on a backing track for our 'cocktail jazz' stuff he plays the other stuff live over it.
Same with the 80's but the track is a bit more full.

We hate to use even a basic backing track but he can't play piano and drums at the same time or when he's playing sax.
We got sick of guitarists turning up their amps and making me try to hear myself over them and sick of keyboard players not turning up at all or turning up drunk or cancelling the morning of a job etc - so we had to take this route if we wanted to still play and sing for our living.

We have made sure that our backing tracks are good quality, but it still pains us to have to do it.
But fortunately because we are now offering three sets of the jazzy stuff plus two sets of the 80s stuff for dancing, we are picking up some nice quality work at golf clubs, posh function venues and stuff.
OK its not rock n roll but we seem to be appreciated and are getting rebooked for other functions.

The best thing is that I sit and sing the cool jazzy stuff, Andy stands up to play his jazz kit and sax and keyboards [mainly uses the jazz organ sound and the vibraphone sound to play over the piano on the track] and it's all soft and smooth,

but then after dinner, we crank up the PA, change the jazz kit for 80s rototoms etc and hit 'em between the eyes with the Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams" - it's the 'WOW' on their faces when they realise they aren't getting more of the 'tinkly tinkly' cocktail music just played a bit faster!

Hee hee. Love that part of the evening.
They don't expect two of us to sound like a band - but with the fuller backing tracks and our 2.5K rig cranked up, we [hopefully] do.

This is the only way we can keep making music our living.

But with 3 sets of 40 minutes dinner music from about 7pm, and either 1 x 6o minutes of 80s or 2 x 45 of 80s, we work really hard and the most we seem to be able to squeeze out of the venues is £400.
We wish we could get that every gig. It's more often £300.

But as long as we can keep gigging and paying the bills we are happy.


I've worked as a Civil Servant, in a Bank, in a Real Estate Agent office, a jewellery store - and I hated all of it.
I'm truly happy doing what I do and will do all I can to carry on.


But I was just curious to know how others are coping.

JrnyScarab wrote:We did play at the beach in Massachusetts and had to play SIX 50 minute sets. 3 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. My guitar was pretty heavy and my shoulder never recovered from it.

We also played a club in New York that had us start playing at 11pm and played til 3am .The only time we played there, there was a huge snowstorm and 3 people showed up. The owner felt bad and couldn't pay us our fee so he let us drink Alabama Slammers for free all night.

Not surprised your shoulder suffered!

But are you sure you didn't have too many Alabama Slammers that night too?


Re - the NY gig - if only 3 people showed up why did the owner make you stay????

Were the roads home blocked??

G.I.Jim wrote:

Lula wrote:you coming over susie, taking the band on the road?

Probably not after she reads the last two posts. It is really sad, and it's gotten much worse with the economy. I have many friends who play out and the places that used to pay $400- $500 per night for a band now want to pay $200- $300. Many of them switch to the karaoke thing so they don't have to pay for entertainment and get shitloads of drinking customers in the door who think they're the next Steve Perry.

Many clubs are also trying to find solo acoustic acts so they can give them $75-$100 a night. What irks the hell out of me is that if you're a decent band who brings 40-50 people to a show, that's all profit for bars. The two main bands I played in would draw anywhere from 100-300 people every time we played. The bars made a TON of money because most of our friends were heavy drinkers. With that said, many places would only pay $300 and free beer. By the time you set up all of the equipment, do a sound check, play for 3 hours, load all of the gear, $300 for 6 people and a sound guy is a fucking crime!!! Hell, we probably made those bars $2000 just off of our regulars and friends!!!

Pretty sad time to be in a working band...

But it's still better than having to do a day job you hate down to the depths of your soul, Jimbo. Isn't it? Well, it is for me. xxxx


What pisses me off here is the restaurants who have 'jazz nights.' Loads of them around us.
They are good mid week gigs to top up what the Agent gets us at weekends.

They'll play a guy with a guitar who doesn't sing so good or a Michael Buble "tribute" £150.

So that must mean they think £150 is a fair fee for one performer.
So, why won't they pay double that if there are two people then? One singing well and the other playing sax, jazz kit, bongos, congas, keyboards and blues harp? Especially when they'd have to pay more than double if it was a four or five piece Band playing that many instruments individually.

We've just come to the conclusion that we'll have to take low fees rather than not gig at all in the hope that our reasonable fee plus a job well done will encourage these venues to book us every few weeks, thus making it worth it in the long run.

Better to have regular gigs at a low fee than a one off gig for a bit more.


But who knows what's the right thing to do.



But Jim, if your mates came to our gigs and spent $2000 dollars on beer, I think we'd be awarded a lifetime residency!!!!!!

Not exactly the same thing but my son does trance music on the side.
He may get five to six gigs on a good month. Three to five hour set. A mix of original stuff with other artists.
Anywhere from 150 bucks for private gigs (he uses his own equipment and free lances as much as he wants) to $1,500 at the clubs depending how many people show up and drink (300 people is the most he has played for at once).
The clubs have him use their equipment and usually want certain music played for the most part.
He likes it and it covers his car and insurance payments but he won't be quitting his day job any time soon.
Facebook is where he usually networks to get gigs. He has his personal page and then a like page where people listen to his samples and then private message him if the have something or know somebody who is looking for someone to perform.

Living in L.A. helps a lot and his friends and their connections are quite diverse so he can be playing anything from a Quinceañera to a Bar Mitzvah to Chan Dara on New Year's Eve, he's not too picky.

SusieP wrote:

G.I.Jim wrote:

Lula wrote:you coming over susie, taking the band on the road?

Probably not after she reads the last two posts. It is really sad, and it's gotten much worse with the economy. I have many friends who play out and the places that used to pay $400- $500 per night for a band now want to pay $200- $300. Many of them switch to the karaoke thing so they don't have to pay for entertainment and get shitloads of drinking customers in the door who think they're the next Steve Perry.

Many clubs are also trying to find solo acoustic acts so they can give them $75-$100 a night. What irks the hell out of me is that if you're a decent band who brings 40-50 people to a show, that's all profit for bars. The two main bands I played in would draw anywhere from 100-300 people every time we played. The bars made a TON of money because most of our friends were heavy drinkers. With that said, many places would only pay $300 and free beer. By the time you set up all of the equipment, do a sound check, play for 3 hours, load all of the gear, $300 for 6 people and a sound guy is a fucking crime!!! Hell, we probably made those bars $2000 just off of our regulars and friends!!!

Pretty sad time to be in a working band...

But it's still better than having to do a day job you hate down to the depths of your soul, Jimbo. Isn't it? Well, it is for me. xxxx


What pisses me off here is the restaurants who have 'jazz nights.' Loads of them around us.
They are good mid week gigs to top up what the Agent gets us at weekends.

They'll play a guy with a guitar who doesn't sing so good or a Michael Buble "tribute" £150.

So that must mean they think £150 is a fair fee for one performer.
So, why won't they pay double that if there are two people then? One singing well and the other playing sax, jazz kit, bongos, congas, keyboards and blues harp? Especially when they'd have to pay more than double if it was a four or five piece Band playing that many instruments individually.

We've just come to the conclusion that we'll have to take low fees rather than not gig at all in the hope that our reasonable fee plus a job well done will encourage these venues to book us every few weeks, thus making it worth it in the long run.

Better to have regular gigs at a low fee than a one off gig for a bit more.


But who knows what's the right thing to do.



But Jim, if your mates came to our gigs and spent $2000 dollars on beer, I think we'd be awarded a lifetime residency!!!!!!

You'd think you'd get treated better here as these bars make a TON of money off of a lot of bands, but they don't. At the same time, I fault musicians. There are so many shitty bands out there that will play for $200 a night just for the chance to say they were on a stage, that you almost can't fault the club owners for not wanting to pay more when they can get it for cheaper.

I'll be retiring in a few years and I'll probably be out there trying to make a buck in the bars again too. Hopefully the scene will improve before then!

Don wrote:Not exactly the same thing but my son does trance music on the side.
He may get five to six gigs on a good month. Three to five hour set. A mix of original stuff with other artists.
Anywhere from 150 bucks for private gigs (he uses his own equipment and free lances as much as he wants) to $1,500 at the clubs depending how many people show up and drink (300 people is the most he has played for at once).
The clubs have him use their equipment and usually want certain music played for the most part.
He likes it and it covers his car and insurance payments but he won't be quitting his day job any time soon.
Facebook is where he usually networks to get gigs. He has his personal page and then a like page where people listen to his samples and then private message him if the have something or know somebody who is looking for someone to perform.

Living in L.A. helps a lot and his friends and their connections are quite diverse so he can be playing anything from a Quinceañera to a Bar Mitzvah to Chan Dara on New Year's Eve, he's not too picky.

That's great!
My partner has done a few nightclub gigs playing sax and percussion to a trance DJ.
He quite enjoyed it - but that music is really for young kids. I don't think he could stand playing to that stuff again.

G.I.Jim wrote:

SusieP wrote:

G.I.Jim wrote:

Lula wrote:you coming over susie, taking the band on the road?

Probably not after she reads the last two posts. It is really sad, and it's gotten much worse with the economy. I have many friends who play out and the places that used to pay $400- $500 per night for a band now want to pay $200- $300. Many of them switch to the karaoke thing so they don't have to pay for entertainment and get shitloads of drinking customers in the door who think they're the next Steve Perry.

Many clubs are also trying to find solo acoustic acts so they can give them $75-$100 a night. What irks the hell out of me is that if you're a decent band who brings 40-50 people to a show, that's all profit for bars. The two main bands I played in would draw anywhere from 100-300 people every time we played. The bars made a TON of money because most of our friends were heavy drinkers. With that said, many places would only pay $300 and free beer. By the time you set up all of the equipment, do a sound check, play for 3 hours, load all of the gear, $300 for 6 people and a sound guy is a fucking crime!!! Hell, we probably made those bars $2000 just off of our regulars and friends!!!

Pretty sad time to be in a working band...

But it's still better than having to do a day job you hate down to the depths of your soul, Jimbo. Isn't it? Well, it is for me. xxxx


What pisses me off here is the restaurants who have 'jazz nights.' Loads of them around us.
They are good mid week gigs to top up what the Agent gets us at weekends.

They'll play a guy with a guitar who doesn't sing so good or a Michael Buble "tribute" £150.

So that must mean they think £150 is a fair fee for one performer.
So, why won't they pay double that if there are two people then? One singing well and the other playing sax, jazz kit, bongos, congas, keyboards and blues harp? Especially when they'd have to pay more than double if it was a four or five piece Band playing that many instruments individually.

We've just come to the conclusion that we'll have to take low fees rather than not gig at all in the hope that our reasonable fee plus a job well done will encourage these venues to book us every few weeks, thus making it worth it in the long run.

Better to have regular gigs at a low fee than a one off gig for a bit more.


But who knows what's the right thing to do.



But Jim, if your mates came to our gigs and spent $2000 dollars on beer, I think we'd be awarded a lifetime residency!!!!!!

You'd think you'd get treated better here as these bars make a TON of money off of a lot of bands, but they don't. At the same time, I fault musicians. There are so many shitty bands out there that will play for $200 a night just for the chance to say they were on a stage, that you almost can't fault the club owners for not wanting to pay more when they can get it for cheaper.

I'll be retiring in a few years and I'll probably be out there trying to make a buck in the bars again too. Hopefully the scene will improve before then!

Shitty bands make me sick.
And unprofessionalism too. Get away with playing as badly and for as little time as possible and scrounge as much free beer and food as they can.

But you can't blame the crappy ones for trying it on. If a venue will let them get away with that and pay them no matter how shit they are, the crap ones will take the money.


What gets me, is the venue owners who are prepared to give their customers lousy entertainment just to save a bit of money.

What they SHOULD do is get the best possible band for a reasonable fee, then the customers stay there for longer, drink and eat more and will also come back in future when that band are on again.

But the venue owners only think about saving money on the Band fee.

WHY Can't they look further than that?????

SusieP wrote:

JrnyScarab wrote:We did play at the beach in Massachusetts and had to play SIX 50 minute sets. 3 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. My guitar was pretty heavy and my shoulder never recovered from it.

We also played a club in New York that had us start playing at 11pm and played til 3am .The only time we played there, there was a huge snowstorm and 3 people showed up. The owner felt bad and couldn't pay us our fee so he let us drink Alabama Slammers for free all night.

Not surprised your shoulder suffered!

But are you sure you didn't have too many Alabama Slammers that night too?


Re - the NY gig - if only 3 people showed up why did the owner make you stay????

Were the roads home blocked??

Suzie, I did have too many Alabama Slammers that night and it always helped with the shoulder/neck pain! Now when I sleep on my left side, I have trouble with pain in my arm and neck. Just a pinched nerve I figure. Have had it since I was about 25 when I quit and I'm 53 now. Never really gets any worse so I just live with it.

Yes, the NY gig was about 5-6 hours drive from home and we were supposed to play 2 nights, so we just stayed in a motel for the night and played the 2nd night fine. Got about 12" of snow that first night. I have many funny stories from my performing days and wouldn't trade them for anything. It was a fun part of my life for sure. Now I'm just a working stiff with a family!

P.S. you are a very nice person and are doing a great job helping Lula with her pain. It's nice to see.

In my area it typically goes like this:

-all bars, 4 sets per night at 45-50 minutes each

-10 pm start-2 am end

-good bands can gig 2 nights per week

-hardly ever see original stuff, all cover bands

-if you're connected enough to the local area, you don't need an agent

-good bands will pull $500-600 per night, not so good 250-300 per night

The bottom line, you can't make a living doing it. This is local area gigs within an hours drive. Bigger cities may offer more.

SusieP wrote:So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?
And what's the format for a gig? How many sets are you expected to play each night? What time does a gig usually kick off and end?
How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?
Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?
Are the venues Bars? Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?
And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?
If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

I know its twenty questions, but I'm curious.


If we play a Club or Bar, it's either 3 x 30 minutes sets or 2 x 45 minutes.
A private function is usually 3 x 40 minutes of 'dinner music' plus either 1 x 60 minute or 2 x 45 of 'pop' to dance to.

The Agent takes 15% of the fee and we have to pay VAT of 20% on that 15%.
If we get a private booking, we don't have to pay anything to the Agent.

We couldn't make a living doing original stuff but we can make a living doing covers.
We get an average of three gigs a week.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.


So, generally, how's it work in the States and Countries other than the UK?

Susie, as you can see from most of these replies...It's tough everywhere, LOL!

It's very difficult, though not impossible, as you've pointed out, to make a living making music. It's tough, and I do know some people that can manage. There are those bands like Frontiers that stay on the road all the time, but even doing that, it's good to have some sort of part time stuff or a freelance second income to fall back on. Then there are a few guys in every local scene that make a living making music, by keeping a wide number of gigs open. These are the guys that gig regularly on weekends with some of the biggest bands around, and then during the week may have a couple solo gigs for $150/gig or so, as well as giving lessons during the week. It's damned near impossible, but if you can hustle, you can make it work.

The majority of the "local" music scenes here in the states have already been described. To truly get out of the rut of local bars and the same old faces week in and week out, you really have to find something that is going to be unique and that not 100 other bands in the same zip code are doing.

I see more and more acts going to solo/duo with tracks, because it's the only way to make it worth your time. Let's face it, the band where everyone pulls their own weight and contributes to those extra necessities that make a band a working business are few and far between. I think more people are seeing this, and wondering if it's worth it to carry a drummer or keyboard player or bass player (just random instruments, I'm not being specific here) that simply shows up every week and wants a full cut of the work - when on a per-player basis it's just as lucrative and much less hassle to make some tasteful rhythm tracks and get up with a guitarist and singer, or a keyboard player/singer and do the duo thing. The thing that doesn't work is when you get people basically buying full on karaoke tracks from iTunes or whatever and standing up and singing, awkwardly looking at their shoes during guitar solos, etc...It's kind of pathetic but I've been in enough hotel bars in enough cities to know that it does still happen, haha.

I've found a lot of musicians tend to let some sort of mysterious code of ethics get in the way of what they will and won't do to make money. For example, bands that refuse to play cover songs, yet gripe because they can only draw 3 people to a gig (their girlfriends and moms). If you approach making music as a money making endeavor - And really, who in their right mind is going to put in the work and money that it takes to produce a show is not going to want to at least make enough to pay for itself and their time - then you have to say "what am I going to do that people will pay money to hear? Is it play cover songs? Is it play along with some tracks because audiences expect to hear strings and a rhythm track along with my guitar/singer solo act? If it is, then you either do what it takes to get people to PAY YOU MONEY TO DO IT, or be happy sitting at home playing your own music your way and bitching about all the other groups out there that are making money by fulfilling market expectations.

Sounds like you are doing the right things - And I've often wondered what the music scene in UK is like, though more in terms of bringing Frontiers over and possibly doing some solo/opening sets of my own material. It sounds like it's kind of the same thing. Though in the US we've been pretty well established in the mid level regional & national venues such as the House of Blues, etc, and so I don't know that there is any sort of network of similar level venues in the UK.

Also, you may want to check out a great forum on duo acts and the business side and musical side of that. Check it out here:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/for ... d-Duo-Acts

And good luck!!

JrnyScarab wrote:

SusieP wrote:

JrnyScarab wrote:We did play at the beach in Massachusetts and had to play SIX 50 minute sets. 3 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. My guitar was pretty heavy and my shoulder never recovered from it.

We also played a club in New York that had us start playing at 11pm and played til 3am .The only time we played there, there was a huge snowstorm and 3 people showed up. The owner felt bad and couldn't pay us our fee so he let us drink Alabama Slammers for free all night.

Not surprised your shoulder suffered!

But are you sure you didn't have too many Alabama Slammers that night too?


Re - the NY gig - if only 3 people showed up why did the owner make you stay????

Were the roads home blocked??

Suzie, I did have too many Alabama Slammers that night and it always helped with the shoulder/neck pain! Now when I sleep on my left side, I have trouble with pain in my arm and neck. Just a pinched nerve I figure. Have had it since I was about 25 when I quit and I'm 53 now. Never really gets any worse so I just live with it.

Yes, the NY gig was about 5-6 hours drive from home and we were supposed to play 2 nights, so we just stayed in a motel for the night and played the 2nd night fine. Got about 12" of snow that first night. I have many funny stories from my performing days and wouldn't trade them for anything. It was a fun part of my life for sure. Now I'm just a working stiff with a family!

P.S. you are a very nice person and are doing a great job helping Lula with her pain. It's nice to see.

Aww shame about that pain - but you can always get drunk when it gets bad.
You have an excuse!!!!!!!

A working stiff with a family? Hah! Time to write a book with all of your stories in it!


And I like that P.S. on your post.

Thank you.

But I assure you, I can be a cranky bitch just like everyone else sometimes.

I hope we are all helping Lula with this great big horrible shock. I'm no different to anyone else on here whose online life had been hit by hurricane deano!

I'm not a religious person but I do like that saying "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I like to follow that rule - if that makes me a Christian, then so be it.
I just like to help nice people if I can.

I have no suggestions for your shoulder pain though.............sorry.
xxx

Aaron wrote:In my area it typically goes like this:

-all bars, 4 sets per night at 45-50 minutes each

-10 pm start-2 am end

-good bands can gig 2 nights per week

-hardly ever see original stuff, all cover bands

-if you're connected enough to the local area, you don't need an agent

-good bands will pull $500-600 per night, not so good 250-300 per night

The bottom line, you can't make a living doing it. This is local area gigs within an hours drive. Bigger cities may offer more.

So, really, we are doing pretty well getting 2 0r 3 a week and managing to make a living.

And it does sound pretty much the same over there as here then.

Its good to know.

Jeremey wrote:Susie, as you can see from most of these replies...It's tough everywhere, LOL!

It's very difficult, though not impossible, as you've pointed out, to make a living making music. It's tough, and I do know some people that can manage. There are those bands like Frontiers that stay on the road all the time, but even doing that, it's good to have some sort of part time stuff or a freelance second income to fall back on. Then there are a few guys in every local scene that make a living making music, by keeping a wide number of gigs open. These are the guys that gig regularly on weekends with some of the biggest bands around, and then during the week may have a couple solo gigs for $150/gig or so, as well as giving lessons during the week. It's damned near impossible, but if you can hustle, you can make it work.

The majority of the "local" music scenes here in the states have already been described. To truly get out of the rut of local bars and the same old faces week in and week out, you really have to find something that is going to be unique and that not 100 other bands in the same zip code are doing.

I see more and more acts going to solo/duo with tracks, because it's the only way to make it worth your time. Let's face it, the band where everyone pulls their own weight and contributes to those extra necessities that make a band a working business are few and far between. I think more people are seeing this, and wondering if it's worth it to carry a drummer or keyboard player or bass player (just random instruments, I'm not being specific here) that simply shows up every week and wants a full cut of the work - when on a per-player basis it's just as lucrative and much less hassle to make some tasteful rhythm tracks and get up with a guitarist and singer, or a keyboard player/singer and do the duo thing. The thing that doesn't work is when you get people basically buying full on karaoke tracks from iTunes or whatever and standing up and singing, awkwardly looking at their shoes during guitar solos, etc...It's kind of pathetic but I've been in enough hotel bars in enough cities to know that it does still happen, haha.

I've found a lot of musicians tend to let some sort of mysterious code of ethics get in the way of what they will and won't do to make money. For example, bands that refuse to play cover songs, yet gripe because they can only draw 3 people to a gig (their girlfriends and moms). If you approach making music as a money making endeavor - And really, who in their right mind is going to put in the work and money that it takes to produce a show is not going to want to at least make enough to pay for itself and their time - then you have to say "what am I going to do that people will pay money to hear? Is it play cover songs? Is it play along with some tracks because audiences expect to hear strings and a rhythm track along with my guitar/singer solo act? If it is, then you either do what it takes to get people to PAY YOU MONEY TO DO IT, or be happy sitting at home playing your own music your way and bitching about all the other groups out there that are making money by fulfilling market expectations.

Sounds like you are doing the right things - And I've often wondered what the music scene in UK is like, though more in terms of bringing Frontiers over and possibly doing some solo/opening sets of my own material. It sounds like it's kind of the same thing. Though in the US we've been pretty well established in the mid level regional & national venues such as the House of Blues, etc, and so I don't know that there is any sort of network of similar level venues in the UK.

Also, you may want to check out a great forum on duo acts and the business side and musical side of that. Check it out here:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/for ... d-Duo-Acts

And good luck!!

karaoke tracks and singers are a big no no.

Regarding the UK scene for the stuff you do, I would suggest you talk to Marty Moffat - the photographer who is a member here.
The only venue I can think of is the Birdwell Venue in Yorkshire. They have held Journey fan club conventions there and they have Tribute bands, rock acts etc on. Perfect venue for you - but you'd need more than one gig to make it worth your while coming over.

I bet Marty has contacts all over the UK.

The guy who runs the Birdwell is also a member here but for the moment I can't remember his name.
With luck, he may read this.


This is why we've branched out into the dinner music plus 80s pop to dance to because there wasn't enough work or venues around for Band stuff. But that was when we were trying to get three gigs a week, all year round.
Maybe there are enough suitable venues for you to do a mini tour.
I will have a think - but why not PM Marty?

As you say, I think we are doing the right things.
And to be honest, I'm really getting a buzz out of singing low volume Standards and being able to 'act' out the words to people who can see you up close.
The voice control needed when you can't belt out and project is a whole skill on its own.
I'm really enjoying it - and some of those songs really allow you to be soulful.
Oh yes!
Like when you are putting all the soul you've got into, say "Cry Me A River" or "To Make You Feel My Love" and people stop what they are doing and turn around and just LISTEN....................it's such a wonderful feeling.


Funny I never got that feeling EVER when I worked in a Bank.



Oh and I'll check out that forum thanks.
xxx

JEREMEY!!!!!!! - I remembered the name of the member here who runs that rock venue in the UK.


His username is barnsley4

I just couldn't think of it when I was typing that post.

He runs The Birdwell Venue in Yorkshire.

Solid building, rock crowd.

We supported a Queen Tribute there once. The audience seemed pretty good.
And they have soft rock acts on regularly.


Why not PM him and have a chat about the UK scene for your type of show? Bet he knows of other suitable venues.

xxxxx


oooh exciting.









[if you read this barnsley4, sorry I forgot your name - but Barnsley Chop wouldn't go out of my head. I knew it was something to do with Barnsley!!!]

I looked at that Harmony central forum and listened to some audio clips of one of the Duos who uses tracks.

I can't believe they are getting work with tracks like that!
They sound nothing like real instruments and I wasn't impressed.
Thank goodness we have been able to get tracks custom made that don't sound like those midi file things they are using on that site.

Our 'jazz' ones are real instruments and our 80s ones were made with synths and electronic drums and real guitar etc and through our 2.5K rig with plenty of middle and bass in the mix, they sound kicking!

I wasn't impressed with the ones on that forum and I won't be buying any from the bloke who is selling them.
The debate for and against tracks on there was pretty interesting though.
I may revisit that forum and even join in with the debate.
:lol:

SusieP wrote:So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?
And what's the format for a gig? How many sets are you expected to play each night? What time does a gig usually kick off and end?
How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?
Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?
Are the venues Bars? Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?
And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?
If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

I know its twenty questions, but I'm curious.


If we play a Club or Bar, it's either 3 x 30 minutes sets or 2 x 45 minutes.
A private function is usually 3 x 40 minutes of 'dinner music' plus either 1 x 60 minute or 2 x 45 of 'pop' to dance to.

The Agent takes 15% of the fee and we have to pay VAT of 20% on that 15%.
If we get a private booking, we don't have to pay anything to the Agent.

We couldn't make a living doing original stuff but we can make a living doing covers.
We get an average of three gigs a week.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.


So, generally, how's it work in the States and Countries other than the UK?

I'm in 3 bands. A dance cover band (sorry!) and two tributish/music of acts.
The dance band does about 2-3 weekends a month usually (2 nighters). The shows are usually 3- hour sets (4 hour total) or a 5-hour gig (4 hour sets).
One of the tribute acts is a 2 hour thing.
The other trib is a 3 hour thing.
I'm playing in those other acts about one-three shows per month.

Money isn't what it was in the 80s. I also have a day job and have for about that long, so I only use the band money for savings and of course- gear!

The dance band is the agent band. Same rooms a lot of the time and not a lot of them these days. We also do private and corporate gigs and casinos where the money is better.
The tribute acts, because they're not centered on dance dance dance are doing great at dinner clubs and outdoor festivals.
If you network, there's a lot to keep you busy. I'm a super busy guy these days. I think I could make a living at it if I wanted to and if my voice would hold up 24/7, but I really don't want to be doing every night in a club.
Booking the tribute acts ourselves and have more of those gigs on the books at the moment...

Regarding the tracks, I prefer to build my own. Sometimes horn parts can be tough, but you can usually tweak them pretty well if you take the time to do it. A lot of guys use straight out midi. Eh, that's not a good way to go.

There are original acts up here and there are lots of places for them. Not sure what they make, but I would bet the cover guys are making more than the original ones from what I've seen. If there's an original act with a big following, that's different of course and I'm sure those will work on percentage. From what I've seen and experienced, percentages are usually not good for most bands unless the club has a reputation as a slamming place to go.

brywool wrote:

SusieP wrote:So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?
And what's the format for a gig? How many sets are you expected to play each night? What time does a gig usually kick off and end?
How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?
Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?
Are the venues Bars? Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?
And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?
If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

I know its twenty questions, but I'm curious.


If we play a Club or Bar, it's either 3 x 30 minutes sets or 2 x 45 minutes.
A private function is usually 3 x 40 minutes of 'dinner music' plus either 1 x 60 minute or 2 x 45 of 'pop' to dance to.

The Agent takes 15% of the fee and we have to pay VAT of 20% on that 15%.
If we get a private booking, we don't have to pay anything to the Agent.

We couldn't make a living doing original stuff but we can make a living doing covers.
We get an average of three gigs a week.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.


So, generally, how's it work in the States and Countries other than the UK?

I'm in 3 bands. A dance cover band (sorry!) and two tributish/music of acts.
The dance band does about 2-3 weekends a month usually (2 nighters). The shows are usually 3- hour sets (4 hour total) or a 5-hour gig (4 hour sets).
One of the tribute acts is a 2 hour thing.
The other trib is a 3 hour thing.
I'm playing in those other acts about one-three shows per month.

Money isn't what it was in the 80s. I also have a day job and have for about that long, so I only use the band money for savings and of course- gear!

The dance band is the agent band. Same rooms a lot of the time and not a lot of them these days. We also do private and corporate gigs and casinos where the money is better.
The tribute acts, because they're not centered on dance dance dance are doing great at dinner clubs and outdoor festivals.
If you network, there's a lot to keep you busy. I'm a super busy guy these days. I think I could make a living at it if I wanted to and if my voice would hold up 24/7, but I really don't want to be doing every night in a club.
Booking the tribute acts ourselves and have more of those gigs on the books at the moment...

Regarding the tracks, I prefer to build my own. Sometimes horn parts can be tough, but you can usually tweak them pretty well if you take the time to do it. A lot of guys use straight out midi. Eh, that's not a good way to go.

There are original acts up here and there are lots of places for them. Not sure what they make, but I would bet the cover guys are making more than the original ones from what I've seen. If there's an original act with a big following, that's different of course and I'm sure those will work on percentage. From what I've seen and experienced, percentages are usually not good for most bands unless the club has a reputation as a slamming place to go.

I would love to hear you sing sometime Wooley!

brywool wrote:

SusieP wrote:So, what's the circuit like over there and in other Countries for gigs?
And what's the format for a gig? How many sets are you expected to play each night? What time does a gig usually kick off and end?
How many gigs a week can a decent standard outfit expect to get?
Can you make a living doing original stuff or do you have to do covers?
Are the venues Bars? Or do you have to do Functions - like Weddings, parties etc?
And do you need an Agent to get you enough gigs to live on?
If so, what percentage commission do you have to pay?

I know its twenty questions, but I'm curious.


If we play a Club or Bar, it's either 3 x 30 minutes sets or 2 x 45 minutes.
A private function is usually 3 x 40 minutes of 'dinner music' plus either 1 x 60 minute or 2 x 45 of 'pop' to dance to.

The Agent takes 15% of the fee and we have to pay VAT of 20% on that 15%.
If we get a private booking, we don't have to pay anything to the Agent.

We couldn't make a living doing original stuff but we can make a living doing covers.
We get an average of three gigs a week.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.


So, generally, how's it work in the States and Countries other than the UK?

I'm in 3 bands. A dance cover band (sorry!) and two tributish/music of acts.
The dance band does about 2-3 weekends a month usually (2 nighters). The shows are usually 3- hour sets (4 hour total) or a 5-hour gig (4 hour sets).
One of the tribute acts is a 2 hour thing.
The other trib is a 3 hour thing.
I'm playing in those other acts about one-three shows per month.

Money isn't what it was in the 80s. I also have a day job and have for about that long, so I only use the band money for savings and of course- gear!

The dance band is the agent band. Same rooms a lot of the time and not a lot of them these days. We also do private and corporate gigs and casinos where the money is better.
The tribute acts, because they're not centered on dance dance dance are doing great at dinner clubs and outdoor festivals.
If you network, there's a lot to keep you busy. I'm a super busy guy these days. I think I could make a living at it if I wanted to and if my voice would hold up 24/7, but I really don't want to be doing every night in a club.
Booking the tribute acts ourselves and have more of those gigs on the books at the moment...

Regarding the tracks, I prefer to build my own. Sometimes horn parts can be tough, but you can usually tweak them pretty well if you take the time to do it. A lot of guys use straight out midi. Eh, that's not a good way to go.

There are original acts up here and there are lots of places for them. Not sure what they make, but I would bet the cover guys are making more than the original ones from what I've seen. If there's an original act with a big following, that's different of course and I'm sure those will work on percentage. From what I've seen and experienced, percentages are usually not good for most bands unless the club has a reputation as a slamming place to go.

You are pretty busy then Bry. That's good.
And don't apologise for the dance covers - a gig's a gig.
And when you have to play because music is part of your soul, it's better than sitting at home.

I don't understand the technicalities of midi files - but the tracks we use on stage aren't midi. We paid a guy to make them from scratch for us.
I've seen websites selling midi files and when I listen to the samples they sound Yuk.
Like those I listened to on the Solo & Duo act forum Jeremey gave a link to.
They sound keyboard based but the keyboard sound is like a kid's plinky plonky piano. NOT a nice sound.

We are getting regular work.
The fees are erratic.
For instance we have a daytime gig at a big Function Suite which starts at lunchtime till about 7pm.
We've been booked to play just the cocktail jazzy stuff and we'll play three 40 minute sets for a fee of £300.
We play here regularly but usually for evening functions. And for those we typically play 1 x 30 minutes of jazzy stuff and 2 x 45 minutes of the 70s/80s stuff for dancing - and weirdly, if we play on a Friday night it's £350 but if it's a Saturday night we get £400.
So its the day of the week and the time of the gig that seems to dictate the fee over here. The Agent gets what he can.

But small restaurants [not via the Agent] we play 3 x 40 minutes of jazzy stuff and the fee varies on the venue from £150 to £200. These are all commission free and close to home so we aren't having to pay out for a lot of gas in the tank.


It's really interesting hearing how everyone else is earning a crust from their music and how much they get for their efforts.


I'd love to be in a live band again with several members, but only in an ideal world.
We got let down so often by other band members that it was no longer viable - that and live band venues rapidly disappearing over here and the ones that survive refusing to pay each band member a fair fee each.
We just couldn't do it any more.

Hence the decision to pay people to make us some tracks from scratch so we could be as close to a full band as possible.





The other thing I wanted to ask everyone about is the dreaded beast that is the Decibel Cut Off Meter.
Many venues here have had these things installed and they are sensitive to sound frequency - mainly Bass - and this makes it very difficult to mix your sound so that it is loud enough but doesn't just sound treble-ish and tinny. Then the lower volume mix seems to lose the reverb - a particular pain in the arse for the sound of the sax.

We had to work with one last night - and we were only sound checking the Wedge monitors and the power cut off 3 times.
It was a nightmare.
The audience applauded well enough and they got up to dance. We even got a few cheers and whistles - but we could hardly hear ourselves on stage.

And my partner stands up to play drums and sax next to me, and trying to hold back when you play those two instruments is really tricky.

I hated that gig.
I'd love to tell the Agent we don't want to go back, but with the economy like it is and gigs getting harder to come by, we'll just have to take it on the chin.


Do you guys even have Decibel Meters in venues over there or is it just the UK Health & Safety Department going OTT?

Before I get irreverent, let me say that I wish you the absolute best, and know how much it sucks to struggle like that. When I was younger, I used to regularly pawn stuff and kite checks just to get by, but it kept me from having to move home with my parents, and I wouldn't have traded the freedom for anything. Do what you have to do, but hopefully you can keep doing what you love to do for a living. Again, I know what it's like NOT to do what you love, and that sucks too! Best of luck to you, Susie! If I get over to the U.K. in the next few years, I definitely want to see you play, and will drop a nice fat tip in the bucket to support the cause.

SusieP wrote:I'm not a religious person but I do like that saying "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I like to follow that rule - if that makes me a Christian, then so be it. I just like to help nice people if I can.

Actually, it doesn't... but it does make you a good person!

SusieP wrote:xxx

Hey, now... you may be onto something. j/k

This bucket for Tips idea is a new one on me.

We get booked for a fee and that's it.

Do people really put out a Tips bucket?
Even if the venue owners are paying you a fee?


I could be missing a trick here!!

I recieved some new info over the weekend. A friend of mine plays in a good country cover band called Bad Country. They opened in a large bar in Indy called the 8 Second Saloon for a country band that gets played on the radio (can't remember who the headliner was, I'm not a country person). Anyhow, this is a large bar that will draw acts like Great White currently. The opening band played 45 mins and recieved $1500 for the gig. It looks like larger venues in larger cities will bring in more cash.

SusieP wrote:

Do you guys even have Decibel Meters in venues over there or is it just the UK Health & Safety Department going OTT?

Not back in the 80's when I was playing. The louder the better. We used to take our full PA system that we used in a 500 seat club and bring it into little ol Manny's Cafe in Hudson, MA (Seated about 30) and crank the fucker up until the windows were on the verge of shattering. The cops would come down and tell us we had to turn it down cause the neighbors were complaining. We would lower it for a while and then at the end of the night for the last few songs we would crank the shit out of it before the cops could make it back. By the time they got there, the evening was over and we had shit eaten grins on our faces! Soooo much fun back in the day!

Aaron wrote:I recieved some new info over the weekend. A friend of mine plays in a good country cover band called Bad Country. They opened in a large bar in Indy called the 8 Second Saloon for a country band that gets played on the radio (can't remember who the headliner was, I'm not a country person). Anyhow, this is a large bar that will draw acts like Great White currently. The opening band played 45 mins and recieved $1500 for the gig. It looks like larger venues in larger cities will bring in more cash.

Maybe we'd all better learn some Country songs !!

JrnyScarab wrote:

SusieP wrote:

Do you guys even have Decibel Meters in venues over there or is it just the UK Health & Safety Department going OTT?

Not back in the 80's when I was playing. The louder the better. We used to take our full PA system that we used in a 500 seat club and bring it into little ol Manny's Cafe in Hudson, MA (Seated about 30) and crank the fucker up until the windows were on the verge of shattering. The cops would come down and tell us we had to turn it down cause the neighbors were complaining. We would lower it for a while and then at the end of the night for the last few songs we would crank the shit out of it before the cops could make it back. By the time they got there, the evening was over and we had shit eaten grins on our faces! Soooo much fun back in the day!

You are just naughty!!!!

We had to work with one on Friday night and e sounded like we were being played through iplayer headphones on someone elses head!!!


I HATE them.

SusieP wrote:

JrnyScarab wrote:

SusieP wrote:

Do you guys even have Decibel Meters in venues over there or is it just the UK Health & Safety Department going OTT?

Not back in the 80's when I was playing. The louder the better. We used to take our full PA system that we used in a 500 seat club and bring it into little ol Manny's Cafe in Hudson, MA (Seated about 30) and crank the fucker up until the windows were on the verge of shattering. The cops would come down and tell us we had to turn it down cause the neighbors were complaining. We would lower it for a while and then at the end of the night for the last few songs we would crank the shit out of it before the cops could make it back. By the time they got there, the evening was over and we had shit eaten grins on our faces! Soooo much fun back in the day!

You are just naughty!!!!

We had to work with one on Friday night and e sounded like we were being played through iplayer headphones on someone elses head!!!


I HATE them.

That would drive me nuts. You gotta have some power behind the playing! It's VERY hard to hold back and try to play quiet and be yourself. Just doesn't work well. Might as well do an unplugged show! Sometimes you just have to suffer though to make the bucks.