MR

Seeing vids like this one makes me as an American cringe when I think about how many people made their way through the public school system in the US, somehow graduated, and yet they're still so stupid you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

American Idol finalist (season 6) Kellie Pickler on "Are You Smarter Than..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls

The public school system in this country is a total mess. That's what happens when you put too much emphasis on standardized test scores instead of real,useful knowledge.

It really depends on the district you are in. We just pulled my daughter from private school into the local public school and we have seen an improvement. Great communication with her 1st grade teacher and no more incessant fund raisers.

AR wrote:Great communication with her 1st grade teacher and no more incessant fund raisers.

And more importantly...no more tuition!

AR wrote:It really depends on the district you are in. We just pulled my daughter from private school into the local public school and we have seen an improvement. Great communication with her 1st grade teacher and no more incessant fund raisers.

I've long been a staunch believer that the quality of education a kid receives is directly related to the teacher and their dedication, interest, and personal ability to engage and compel their students. Both of my daughters spent their entire primary education years in public schools. Neither was ever held back and both graduated with highest honors. Additionally, they are both attending ASU on full scholarships: the oldest's are a combination of athletic and academic and the youngest's is solely academic. In terms of their respective interests in actually going to school.... getting them to miss a day of school pretty much took an act of Congress! There were times we wanted to go away for the weekend and take Friday or Monday off to extend the weekend and if that extra day wasn't already a holiday, they would throw a fit if it meant missing a school day! That kind of behavior was just foreign to me. As a result of that kind of interest, the oldest had nearly perfect attendance her entire high school career and the youngest had perfect attendance from 4th - 12th grade!

Now, are my kids the exception to the rule and were able to achieve all of that because they are uber-nerds? Nope! They're just normal kids. Their teachers, however, were exceptional. From the time my girls entered the school system my wife and I were consistently amazed at the interest, dedication, and genuine concern the teachers displayed to the students they taught. Young, bright, and relate-able is how I would describe the majority of my kids' teachers.

And don't think for a second I don't realize and appreciate how fortunate they were to have received that kind of quality of education. I do. And along the way the biggest problem that plagued and challenged nearly all of my kids' classes and the school district as a whole is the "No child left behind" initiative. In an area where the population of Hispanic/Latino immigrants (legal or otherwise) who don't speak English and aren't able to receive the needed help with schoolwork at home, the initiative had the potential of destroying the school system. Trying to keep the illiterate, disinterested, challenged, etc. kids on par with the rest of the class is not only impossible, it diminishes the quality and level of education the rest of the kids receive. Luckily, the Arizona school system recognized and acted on this problem (it started out strong but slowly faded) by empowering the teachers and principals to quickly identify students who needed additional help which was focused on their individual requirements and made it available to them. I suspect this didn't happen everywhere and the individual shown in the video above is representative of what happens when the necessary pieces of the puzzle aren't present.

Nah, Pickler's lack of (gosh, I can't even think of a nice word to use here) is not a knock on the public educational system. It's a knock on how people felt bad for her past, thought she was cute, voted for her on Idol, bought her records and made her a famous musician. She's proof that you can be an idiot in the this world and still make it.

mrsromek wrote:Nah, Pickler's lack of (gosh, I can't even think of a nice word to use here) is not a knock on the public educational system. It's a knock on how people felt bad for her past, thought she was cute, voted for her on Idol, bought her records and made her a famous musician. She's proof that you can be an idiot in the this world and still make it.

Please don't libel us musicians - Kellie Pickler is not a musician... she doesn't play an instrument... she just sings.

Why not home school? My cousins dun this and only half the girls in the family got knocked up at 16, vs., all of my other uncle's kids.

steveo777 wrote:Why not home school? My cousins dun this and only half the girls in the family got knocked up at 16, vs., all of my other uncle's kids.

Let me ask you a question Steve - and don't read anything into it.... When you were going to school did you take a regular bus or one of those little tiny short ones?

Maybe he's just drinks the anti-home schooling Koolaid:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America."

The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades.

JRNYMAN wrote:

steveo777 wrote:Why not home school? My cousins dun this and only half the girls in the family got knocked up at 16, vs., all of my other uncle's kids.

Let me ask you a question Steve - and don't read anything into it.... When you were going to school did you take a regular bus or one of those little tiny short ones?

Steve, Sorry.....if you promise not to post pictures of my bus, I will promise to never again post a picture of your house. I tried to be discrete and not take the picture when all your mongoloids were running about. Frankly, I just couldn't get a good shot when your wife was bending over gardening or I would have posted that too. Every time I had a good shot, her skirt moved. Does she suffer from a lot of gas?

steveo777 wrote:

JRNYMAN wrote:

steveo777 wrote:Why not home school? My cousins dun this and only half the girls in the family got knocked up at 16, vs., all of my other uncle's kids.

Let me ask you a question Steve - and don't read anything into it.... When you were going to school did you take a regular bus or one of those little tiny short ones?

Steve, Sorry.....if you promise not to post pictures of my bus, I will promise to never again post a picture of your house. I tried to be discrete and not take the picture when all your mongoloids were running about. Frankly, I just couldn't get a good shot when your wife was bending over gardening or I would have posted that too. Every time I had a good shot, her skirt moved. Does she suffer from a lot of gas?

Nah, it's not gas... (why does everyone ask that...??) She's got a nest of possums up in there and that's probably the rustling you saw.

slucero wrote:Maybe he's just drinks the anti-home schooling Koolaid:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America."

The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades.

The problem or drawback to home schooling is the absence of interaction with other kids which greatly affects one's social skills and ability to foster feelings of empathy, sympathy, etc. Yes, there are a lot of advantages to that method of educating a child but the cons far outweigh the pros in my personal opinion. The ability to work and interact well with others is important and necessary.

We've all known people who just don't quite seem to fit in and/or just seem to be uncomfortable around other people - especially if they're amongst strangers. Those types of people never move up in the ranks to eventually reach the pinnacle of their respective fields and are seldom recognized for their achievements. And, it's not because they're not bright, intelligent people. On the contrary, they are usually exceptionally smart but their lack of people skills prevents them from ever soaring.

JRNYMAN wrote:

slucero wrote:Maybe he's just drinks the anti-home schooling Koolaid:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America."

The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades.

The problem or drawback to home schooling is the absence of interaction with other kids which greatly affects one's social skills and ability to foster feelings of empathy, sympathy, etc. Yes, there are a lot of advantages to that method of educating a child but the cons far outweigh the pros in my personal opinion. The ability to work and interact well with others is important and necessary.

We've all known people who just don't quite seem to fit in and/or just seem to be uncomfortable around other people - especially if they're amongst strangers. Those types of people never move up in the ranks to eventually reach the pinnacle of their respective fields and are seldom recognized for their achievements. And, it's not because they're not bright, intelligent people. On the contrary, they are usually exceptionally smart but their lack of people skills prevents them from ever soaring.

As you say it's your "personal opinion"... I recall a post you made regarding dating out side ones race... and how you had your perception changed after finally meeting and getting to know a young man your daughter wanted to date... and who you now consider a nearly a son. (Good on you BTW)

Opinion is a dangerous thing... especially when we assume our opinion is "fact", failing to validate what really is only opinion.

In the case of home-schooled children and socialization... you are falling victim to a common misconception... that home-schooled kids aren't well socialized...

Over the past three decades the U.S. Department of Education, other government and private organizations have done research studies on home-schooled children regarding socialization... A random compilation of findings from the reports:

• Homeschoolers are not isolated.
• Homeschool parents actively encourage their children to take advantage of social opportunities outside the family.
• Homeschooling families are more likely to be civically engaged than families who send their children to public and private schools.
• Homeschoolers display fewer behavior problems than do other children.
• Homeschoolers have higher levels of parental interest and communication, peer independence, a sense of responsibility, and lowered anxiety levels.
• Homeschooled children have higher achievement and mastery levels.
• Homeschooled children have good self-esteem
• Homeschooled children are more socially mature.
• Homeschooled children have better leadership skills than other children.
• Homeschooled children who attempt higher education are successful.
• Homeschooled graduates experience no prejudice regarding employment.
• Homeschool graduates function effectively as members of adult society.

You assertion regarding those "who just don't quite seem to fit in and/or just seem to be uncomfortable around other people" is much more accurate when describing personality TYPES (introvert, extrovert).. than it is as an indicator of a consequence of homeschooling... because, quite simply, the facts indicate otherwise.

slucero wrote:

JRNYMAN wrote:

slucero wrote:Maybe he's just drinks the anti-home schooling Koolaid:

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America."

The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades.

The problem or drawback to home schooling is the absence of interaction with other kids which greatly affects one's social skills and ability to foster feelings of empathy, sympathy, etc. Yes, there are a lot of advantages to that method of educating a child but the cons far outweigh the pros in my personal opinion. The ability to work and interact well with others is important and necessary.

We've all known people who just don't quite seem to fit in and/or just seem to be uncomfortable around other people - especially if they're amongst strangers. Those types of people never move up in the ranks to eventually reach the pinnacle of their respective fields and are seldom recognized for their achievements. And, it's not because they're not bright, intelligent people. On the contrary, they are usually exceptionally smart but their lack of people skills prevents them from ever soaring.

As you say it's your "personal opinion"... I recall a post you made regarding dating out side ones race... and how you had your perception changed after finally meeting and getting to know a young man your daughter wanted to date... and who you now consider a nearly a son. (Good on you BTW)

Opinion is a dangerous thing... especially when we assume our opinion is "fact", failing to validate what really is only opinion.

In the case of home-schooled children and socialization... you are falling victim to a common misconception... that home-schooled kids aren't well socialized...

Over the past three decades the U.S. Department of Education, other government and private organizations have done research studies on home-schooled children regarding socialization... A random compilation of findings from the reports:

• Homeschoolers are not isolated.
• Homeschool parents actively encourage their children to take advantage of social opportunities outside the family.
• Homeschooling families are more likely to be civically engaged than families who send their children to public and private schools.
• Homeschoolers display fewer behavior problems than do other children.
• Homeschoolers have higher levels of parental interest and communication, peer independence, a sense of responsibility, and lowered anxiety levels.
• Homeschooled children have higher achievement and mastery levels.
• Homeschooled children have good self-esteem
• Homeschooled children are more socially mature.
• Homeschooled children have better leadership skills than other children.
• Homeschooled children who attempt higher education are successful.
• Homeschooled graduates experience no prejudice regarding employment.
• Homeschool graduates function effectively as members of adult society.

You assertion regarding those "who just don't quite seem to fit in and/or just seem to be uncomfortable around other people" is much more accurate when describing personality TYPES (introvert, extrovert).. than it is as an indicator of a consequence of homeschooling... because, quite simply, the facts indicate otherwise.

I stand corrected. My opinion was formed based on assumption and not fact, that's true. But, the assertions I made just seemed to make sense. However, as you pointed out, my statements about those folks who don't fit in are most likely victims of personality trait issues rather than subjects who were home-schooled.

And as for the "boyfriend" you mentioned, he's now my future son-in-law. And THANK GOD they're both wise enough to have decided to wait until they both graduate in 2 years rather than jumping headfirst into it.

I will admit that I'm a little biased against public schools. The school district I went to sucked, it was in a rural area where your last name was more important than your test grades. The biggest problem was the quality of the teachers, they had a small handful of excellent, top notch teachers and the rest were mediocre at best. I will say though that my 12th grade physics teacher and my 11th and 12th grade history teacher were 2 of the best teachers I ever had.

Public education vs. private education vs. home schooling..... common denominator = education. Are there some (probably a lot) of public school systems that are failing miserably? You betcha. Are there some private school systems totally missing the mark? Most likely. Does home schooling really lead to a more intelligently advanced student? It seems there is a body of research to show this to be true on the face. In my experience, the where of the education doesn't necessarily factor in the cause/effect of success in primary education. It's the backbone of the operation that dictates to me whether there will be an ultimate success.

The success or failure of a student in our educational system rests solely on the shoulders of the parents of each and every student. If that student has parents who can't be bothered with beginning their education prior to the government mandated education - and continues that lack of bother once they enter the mandated educational establishments... the student themselves will not see the benefit of said education - ultimately failing. Furthermore, if the parents are 'sometimes' partners in the educational experience, students will not see the importance of maintaining a high standard for themselves... ultimately barely scraping by.

As people standing out here, looking in on the education system in this country, we need to ask - why are we laying all the blame on the system and not holding both the students and their parents accountable for their own lack of caring. If the parents and kids do not care on a daily basis, how in the hell do we expect the administration and teachers to give a shit?