MR

Kurr Cobain - 20 Years Later

When I saw that headline I literally stopped in my tracks and did my best to prove there's no way it's been 20 years since Cobain's suicide. 20 YEARS?!?! Holy shit!

Truth is, I really didn't care much for Nirvana at the time. They've since grown on me. I think Cobain's suicide was the best thing that could have happened for Grohl's career but that's just me.

Sucked donkey dick then. Suck donkey dick now. Moreso.

I kind of liked their song, "Smells Like Brain Matter".

If there's any mean bones in my body, they're right here, on this topic. For I feel it would've done the American music scene a HUGE favor had Cobain killed himself before he became famous. Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later. I'm just very happy the European metal scene refuses to live in a post-Nirvana world. At least they know how to write good metal.

I'll never understand why so many people think that no talent waste of space is god. Nirvana is the reason today's rock music, aside from a small handful of exceptions, sounds lazy and repetitive.

Jonny B wrote:Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later.

Unfortunately, the metal scene didn't really do itself any favors. The quality of music coming out of the metal scene during latter portion of the 80s was amateurish at best. Every shitty bar band on the sunset strip was getting a record deal and screen time on MTV.

Just to kinda bring the point of this thread back into view here, my point was how ridiculously fast the past 20 years flew by.

ebake02 wrote:Unfortunately, the metal scene didn't really do itself any favors. The quality of music coming out of the metal scene during latter portion of the 80s was amateurish at best. Every shitty bar band on the sunset strip was getting a record deal and screen time on MTV.

.

It was less about the 3rd rate groups as it was MTV who gave more exposrue to the 3rd rate groups over the more talented bands. I think of Dare, Harem Scarem, Blue Tears, Crimson Glory, Fifth Angel, Lillian Axe, House of Lords, Talisman, even Danger Danger to a certain extent...if those kinds of groups had got more exposure over the Faster Pussycats of the scene, hair metal could have lasted another 10 years in the mainstream. Then maybe the post-80's rock groups who ended up on all those small melodic rock labels could have carried on the torch and the genre would have never skipped a beat.

I remember when Firehouse beat out Nirvana for an award for 'best new band' back in the day I might add. Rightfully so.

Heck, there was even an emerging scene of one-and-done women in the rock scene that got quashed and forgotten before they could even develop a career.

Jonny B wrote:If there's any mean bones in my body, they're right here, on this topic. For I feel it would've done the American music scene a HUGE favor had Cobain killed himself before he became famous. Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later. I'm just very happy the European metal scene refuses to live in a post-Nirvana world. At least they know how to write good metal.

I agree. Down tuned guitars and shitty singers continue to be the staple of US metal.

You know which band should have been HUGE?

King's X. Seriously. They should have become at least as big as Extreme got for a while. I'll never understand why KX has gone so underappreciated.

Even Pearl Jam's Jeff Ament talked about them, and you'd think the grungeheads would have listened.

Jonny B wrote:Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later.

R.I.P., but the guy seemed barely a guitarist. The band's image and that ONE song (you know which one) turned them into an "overnite sensation." Then he went and lifted the guitar line from Killing Joke's "Eighties" for "Come As You Are," another single that took off. Same fuckin' guitar line, just slowed down.

Andrew wrote:Down tuned guitars and shitty singers continue to be the staple of US metal.

A down-tuned guitar in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Type O Negative's guitars sounded awesome. Still do. And it all started with the master, Tony Iommi.

There's just no originality with new bands. There's yet another band of young 'uns, called The Strypes. Yep, even their name sucks. They look like Beatles wannabes. Their music (expectedly) sucks, it's one-note wuss rock. And their band's name is printed on the drummer's bass drum in the same font as "The Beatles." Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While the rest of the World celebrates the Antichrist of rock and roll, I'll be celebrating the (near) 20th Anniversary of these two fantastic songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXClBjNxiOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TboNW5AiHA8

Andrew wrote:

Jonny B wrote:If there's any mean bones in my body, they're right here, on this topic. For I feel it would've done the American music scene a HUGE favor had Cobain killed himself before he became famous. Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later. I'm just very happy the European metal scene refuses to live in a post-Nirvana world. At least they know how to write good metal.

I agree. Down tuned guitars and shitty singers continue to be the staple of US metal.

What about Iced Earth, Kamelot, Symphony X, etc?

Yes, I get your point and agree, but there are still a few good US metal bands (unfortunately they're more popular in Europe than in their home country!)

Archetype wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Jonny B wrote:If there's any mean bones in my body, they're right here, on this topic. For I feel it would've done the American music scene a HUGE favor had Cobain killed himself before he became famous. Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later. I'm just very happy the European metal scene refuses to live in a post-Nirvana world. At least they know how to write good metal.

I agree. Down tuned guitars and shitty singers continue to be the staple of US metal.

What about Iced Earth, Kamelot, Symphony X, etc?

Yes, I get your point and agree, but there are still a few good US metal bands (unfortunately they're more popular in Europe than in their home country!)

Kamelot didn't really pick up steam until the late 90's. Still would've needed some bands to bridge the gap.

Personally, I would add Evanescence to the bunch as well. They're a polarizing group...you love them or hate them...but I consider Amy Lee and co. one of the very few shining lights of the US music scene. I seriously thought they would be the Nirvana of the previous decade as far as changing the music landscape, I mean that is how much I thought they had stood out in comparison to the pop/grunge/rap/whatever crap was on the radio at the time. But they had virtually zero impact in the US scene. But they certainly changed the European music scene to a certain extent, which I'm thankful for.

Jonny B wrote:Personally, I would add Evanescence to the bunch as well. They're a polarizing group...you love them or hate them...but I consider Amy Lee and co. one of the very few shining lights of the US music scene. I seriously thought they would be the Nirvana of the previous decade as far as changing the music landscape, I mean that is how much I thought they had stood out in comparison to the pop/grunge/rap/whatever crap was on the radio at the time. But they had virtually zero impact in the US scene. But they certainly changed the European music scene to a certain extent, which I'm thankful for.

Along with Lzzy Hale and Halestorm.

Jonny B wrote:Personally, I would add Evanescence to the bunch as well. They're a polarizing group...you love them or hate them...but I consider Amy Lee and co. one of the very few shining lights of the US music scene. I seriously thought they would be the Nirvana of the previous decade as far as changing the music landscape, I mean that is how much I thought they had stood out in comparison to the pop/grunge/rap/whatever crap was on the radio at the time. But they had virtually zero impact in the US scene.

I wouldn't say zero. If you were anywhere near FM or inside a Best Buy, you heard an Evanescence song (when they were new). No, they didn't spawn a bunch of knockoff bands but I didn't think they were anything to write home about. They were the "flavor of the week."

verslibre wrote:

Jonny B wrote:Personally, I would add Evanescence to the bunch as well. They're a polarizing group...you love them or hate them...but I consider Amy Lee and co. one of the very few shining lights of the US music scene. I seriously thought they would be the Nirvana of the previous decade as far as changing the music landscape, I mean that is how much I thought they had stood out in comparison to the pop/grunge/rap/whatever crap was on the radio at the time. But they had virtually zero impact in the US scene.

I wouldn't say zero. If you were anywhere near FM or inside a Best Buy, you heard an Evanescence song (when they were new). No, they didn't spawn a bunch of knockoff bands but I didn't think they were anything to write home about. They were the "flavor of the week."

I can think of many reasons why that isn't true. Think of this. This is Amy Lee, a frontwoman, dressed in goth and not dressed like Britney Spears or any of the pop flavors of the time, writing her own songs (also a rarity for women at the time let alone in rock,) and in a commercialized variation of the Gothic genre without coming off as another Nickelback clone or power pop variant ala Avril Lavigne. Were they the first to commercialize Goth? No. That credit goes to Finnish group H.I.M.. But I felt Evanescence were in a league all their own in the US rock scene. Any band that can write an album and have it become the best selling rock album for 2 years straight is hardly a weekly flavor.

Just to give you an idea, only Nickelback's 'All The Right Reasons' (7.5 mil US, 15 mil worldwide) has been the only rock album in the last 11 years to come close to 'Fallen's' total sales (7.6 mil US, 17 mil total worldwide.) And the difference, is that Nickelback's fan base had already been established with previous albums, while 'Fallen' was Ev's first album on a major label. That only makes the numbers even more impressive. Those kinds of numbers starting from the bottom by all rights should have made an impact on the music scene.

I'll tell you the real reason why there was no change. The bigwigs running the US music scene DO...NOT...WANT...women to rock! Let alone ones dressed Gothic. This stigma has existed since the 80's. Even then it was difficult for women to be rockers unless they were selling the body, writing really heavy music, or, if not heavy but still a rocker, had to be at least a 'little' poppy, which still holds true today. There is a variant of a 'femme metal' scene in the US. But if you listen, they're just more of the same girly pop singers that the bigwigs want, only they hide behind a few guitars. Icon For Hire, Flyleaf, and Paramore come to mind....There there's the extremely heavy...if you wish to include indecipherable noise such as Otep, Kittie, or In This Moment.

But the rock genre in general is still a non-factor. Now unless you're a Nickelback clone (ala The Pretty Reckless,) the formula is to put a bunch of recyclable crap pop songs on an album, auto-tune if necessary, sell the body and dance moves, and call it good. That is the real reason why Ev's impact in the US was nearly non-existent. The bigwigs want their women hot, poppy, sexy, and expendable. It's all about image, and not music.

Poppy, Body, or Super Heavy. No happy mediums. Evanescence was that medium, and that is why I thought they stood out from the rest of the common mold.

ebake02 wrote:Along with Lzzy Hale and Halestorm.

I'm glad you brought that up. I got to talk to Lzzy during a meet and greet some years back. She said her group would've never tried to get a record deal if Evanescence didn't make it. For her, it was an 'Amy Lee can make it, so can I,' kind of deal.

I can only think of the indie artist scene I tried to follow after discovering Evanescence....3 Faced...Veronica's Veil...Era For A Moment, among others...none of them signed, all have disbanded, though Era is still around but still unsigned. I wholly blame the ones who control the music scene.

Lzzy Hale and Amy Lee. Love them both. They sing from the heart, and they're true rockers. I wish we had more of them in the US music scene.

I am at least thankful Ev did have an impact on European Metal. None of the Euro groups will ever admit it, but I don't think there would be nearly as many female-fronted bands in the Gothic or Symphonic genres if Evanescence had never come to be. And a number of them have at least one Evanescence sound-a-like song. They will never admit it, they will deny it and be offended by it, but the influences are there.

So, I guess I kind of derailed the topic.

I remember hearing about Nevermind well before it's release in a Gina Arnold article in our local music mag BAM Magazine... "This will be huge" were her words.

I saw Nirvana. Once. 1991 New Years Eve at the Cow Palace in S.F.


Having been to the Cow Palace quite a few times for lots of great metal shows through the 80's... I went with an open mind. Hell it was New Years Eve.

Nirvana came on and opened with "Drain You".

In all my years of going to shows I've NEVER seen an audience reaction like the one I saw that night. I was sitting in the seats, opposite the stage with the whole floor of the arena in front of me. Being about 15 feet higher allowed me an unobstructed view to the stage. The whole of the floor audience, from stage to me was standing, and jumping up and down in unison.. I literally watched the whole of the floor FLEX as they jumped. It was sheer joyful pandemonium.

Say what you will about Nirvana, good or bad.. but there's no denying that they were a force of nature live.

slucero wrote:I remember hearing about Nevermind well before it's release in a Gina Arnold article in our local music mag BAM Magazine... "This will be huge" were her words.

I saw Nirvana. Once. 1991 New Years Eve at the Cow Palace in S.F.


Having been to the Cow Palace quite a few times for lots of great metal shows through the 80's... I went with an open mind. Hell it was New Years Eve.

Nirvana came on and opened with "Drain You".

In all my years of going to shows I've NEVER seen an audience reaction like the one I saw that night. I was sitting in the seats, opposite the stage with the whole floor of the arena in front of me. Being about 15 feet higher allowed me an unobstructed view to the stage. The whole of the floor audience, from stage to me was standing, and jumping up and down in unison.. I literally watched the whole of the floor FLEX as they jumped. It was sheer joyful pandemonium.

Say what you will about Nirvana, good or bad.. but there's no denying that they were a force of nature live.

Nirvana was in the right place at the right time. They were one of the first bands I got into on my own, independent of my old man's influences, but they haven't stood the test of time for me. Almost every other grunge band stands the test of time far better for me.

If one of the better grunge bands broke first, like Alice In Chains or Pearl Jam, the three pieces of mainstream narrative about Nirvana would be Cobain's drug problems, Cobain's redecoration of his walls, and Dave Grohl breaking free from a scummy drug addict to become a great musician and songwriter in his own right.

Ehwmatt wrote:

slucero wrote:I remember hearing about Nevermind well before it's release in a Gina Arnold article in our local music mag BAM Magazine... "This will be huge" were her words.

I saw Nirvana. Once. 1991 New Years Eve at the Cow Palace in S.F.


Having been to the Cow Palace quite a few times for lots of great metal shows through the 80's... I went with an open mind. Hell it was New Years Eve.

Nirvana came on and opened with "Drain You".

In all my years of going to shows I've NEVER seen an audience reaction like the one I saw that night. I was sitting in the seats, opposite the stage with the whole floor of the arena in front of me. Being about 15 feet higher allowed me an unobstructed view to the stage. The whole of the floor audience, from stage to me was standing, and jumping up and down in unison.. I literally watched the whole of the floor FLEX as they jumped. It was sheer joyful pandemonium.

Say what you will about Nirvana, good or bad.. but there's no denying that they were a force of nature live.

Nirvana was in the right place at the right time. They were one of the first bands I got into on my own, independent of my old man's influences, but they haven't stood the test of time for me. Almost every other grunge band stands the test of time far better for me.

If one of the better grunge bands broke first, like Alice In Chains or Pearl Jam, the three pieces of mainstream narrative about Nirvana would be Cobain's drug problems, Cobain's redecoration of his walls, and Dave Grohl breaking free from a scummy drug addict to become a great musician and songwriter in his own right.

The main narrative about Cobain IS his drug problems.. especially every anniversary of his death, and I'd say Grohl has successfully made his own name musically.. his tenure in Nirvana no longer overshadows his Foo stuff.. hasn't for a long time.

AIC and Pearl Jam had more exposure before Nirvana... but Nevermind was way more radio friendly, and when the Nevermind album gained critical mass, any hope for AIC or Pearl Jam knocking Nirvana off as the "face of grunge" were over. Nirvana will be forever remembered as grunge.

Cobain was a very simplistic songwriter... his songs had very focused direction, and that lent itself well to Nirvana being more a "sum of their parts" instead of 3 master musicians. Having Grohl as the drummer I think was the master stroke of luck. The song simplicity made it much easier to engineer and mix.

AIC and Pearl Jam were much more cerebral, songwriting wise.. and in most cases mix wise.

As much as Cobain hated how Nevermind was mixed, that album made them, made his legacy, and secured Krists and Grohls lives. Heck Grohl is worth over $200 Million now.

Alice In Chains in my opinion were a hundred times better than Nirvana.Hated the alternative movement as a whole but if their is one band that was good it was Alice In Chains.They had more of a straight ahead rock vibe and had some great acoustic tunes as well.

mikemarrs wrote:Alice In Chains in my opinion were a hundred times better than Nirvana.Hated the alternative movement as a whole but if their is one band that was good it was Alice In Chains.They had more of a straight ahead rock vibe and had some great acoustic tunes as well.

I would choose AiC as my 'lesser evil' as well. The one thing I hated about Grunge was the godawful vocals. At least AiC had the decently to actually sing well. Their vocal harmonies were one of the best in the genre.

Soundgarden's the best band out of that whole crop.

slucero wrote:I remember hearing about Nevermind well before it's release in a Gina Arnold article in our local music mag BAM Magazine... "This will be huge" were her words.

I saw Nirvana. Once. 1991 New Years Eve at the Cow Palace in S.F.


Having been to the Cow Palace quite a few times for lots of great metal shows through the 80's... I went with an open mind. Hell it was New Years Eve.

Nirvana came on and opened with "Drain You".

In all my years of going to shows I've NEVER seen an audience reaction like the one I saw that night. I was sitting in the seats, opposite the stage with the whole floor of the arena in front of me. Being about 15 feet higher allowed me an unobstructed view to the stage. The whole of the floor audience, from stage to me was standing, and jumping up and down in unison.. I literally watched the whole of the floor FLEX as they jumped. It was sheer joyful pandemonium.

Say what you will about Nirvana, good or bad.. but there's no denying that they were a force of nature live.

Whadya know, its on yt, . You can hear the crowd's constant screaming in the background.

SF Cow Palace Nirvana concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1zatikLbNc

Shit band that were in the right place at the right time (wrong time for normal rock fans).

AIC were a very good band....

Most other grunge bands were like the punk revolution of the late 70s. Noisy for a few years then half dead.

Andrew wrote:Shit band that were in the right place at the right time (wrong time for normal rock fans).

AIC were a very good band....

Most other grunge bands were like the punk revolution of the late 70s. Noisy for a few years then half dead.

I'm surprised you'd give a singer like Layne half a chance. Doesn't seem like your thing.

Soundgarden disbanded due to inner conflicts but re-formed in 2011, released a new album and they're enjoying continued success. Maybe not on the same scale as before, but they're not a zombie band like Journey.

Andrew wrote:Shit band that were in the right place at the right time (wrong time for normal rock fans).

AIC were a very good band....

Most other grunge bands were like the punk revolution of the late 70s. Noisy for a few years then half dead.

I'm surprised you don't hear all the melodic hooks in their songs. That's the criteria by which I judge any music no matter how it's presented.

I remember folks saying 'It was like losing John Lennon'. Not EVEN. Nirvana was okay, but not even CLOSE to that kind of status. Just because he died, he was elevated to sainthood. I got so tired of hearing how great they were (and I'm FROM Seattle kids). Sorry, just didn't get it. Grohl turned out to be pretty darned talented, and I prefer his writing to Cobain's. Still, people really liked the a lot, I just didn't get it. Out of that whole scene, Soundgarden was the most interesting.

Darn tootin' on King's X.

brywool wrote:I remember folks saying 'It was like losing John Lennon'. Not EVEN. Nirvana was okay, but not even CLOSE to that kind of status. Just because he died, he was elevated to sainthood. I got so tired of hearing how great they were (and I'm FROM Seattle kids). Sorry, just didn't get it. Grohl turned out to be pretty darned talented, and I prefer his writing to Cobain's. Still, people really liked the a lot, I just didn't get it. Out of that whole scene, Soundgarden was the most interesting.

Darn tootin' on King's X.

Wow. If sainthood means being a drug addict that commits suicide leaving a child without a parent, then I think society has dropped to an all time low. Your right that Cobain doesn't even come close to Lennon.

Andrew wrote:

Jonny B wrote:If there's any mean bones in my body, they're right here, on this topic. For I feel it would've done the American music scene a HUGE favor had Cobain killed himself before he became famous. Many talented musicians ended up in the unemployment line because of him. US metal has become irrelevant in the post-Grunge era, has steadily declined, and in spite of a few small glimpses of hope, still shows little signs of recovering 20 years later. I'm just very happy the European metal scene refuses to live in a post-Nirvana world. At least they know how to write good metal.

I agree. Down tuned guitars and shitty singers continue to be the staple of US metal.

We DO have Alter Bridge, however.