Multiple Vocals and Negative Reviews

[NealIsGod]

I know! Maybe it was Neal. Dosen't he have a track record.

Bad English

Bad English was brought down by yet another singer with his own agenda and an overblown ego.
Interestingly, it seems to be Jonathan and John Waite that still have hard feelings, whereas Neal & Waite seem to have gotten past their problems.

I didn't know that. Was never a big Bad English fan. Any more info about that?

[Red13JoePa]

All I heard was Waite was a jerk and really hard to work with. I love people who are starting try to put the things on Schon, come on. It's a common thing with vocalists. Megalomaniacal egos of front men tear bands apart. Edward Van Halen coined the term for it with Dave. L.S.D. Lead Singer Disease.


The hatchet must be buried with Waite doing openings on Arrival.

[NealIsGod]

All I heard was Waite was a jerk and really hard to work with. I love people who are starting try to put the things on Schon, come on. It's a common thing with vocalists. Megalomaniacal egos of front men tear bands apart. Edward Van Halen coined the term for it with Dave. L.S.D. Lead Singer Disease.


The hatchet must be buried with Waite doing openings on Arrival.

WTF has John Waite done since BE? I don't think I have heard a single song.

[jrnyman28]

John Waite wanted a commercial sound. He is the one that pushed for "When I See You Smile". Neal and Jon didn't think they needed outside writers to write a hit. But with the #1 ranking John was convinced his decision was correct. This led to more "control" issues within the structure of the band. Jon and John already had a history with "Open Arms". Back then John didn't think anyone wanted to hear that kind of song, years later in Bad English that was the type of song John wanted to have. Irony.

Bridges seemed to have been mended by 2001 with John opening for Journey on the Arrival Tour. There was talk of a mini-Bad English set, but the official word was that there was not enough time. Neal joined John on stage several times, but Jon did not.

[jrnyman28]

WTF has John Waite done since BE? I don't think I have heard a single song.

John has actually put out some good CDs. But his last "hit" was (my wedding song) "How Did I Get By Without You?" in about 1996. I do not own Figure In A Landscape (his last CD from 2003/4) but I have heard very good things about it.

[NoMoreTails]

I didn't know that. Was never a big Bad English fan. Any more info about that?

Jon made a statement once in an interview about Waite not being able to write with the best guitar player in the world, what's up with that, something along those lines. Neal didn't write on the majority of songs from the second album. Jonathan and Waite collaborated together and with others on everything, yet it seems like Jonathan had/has more issues with Waite. Waite's vision for the band evidently was different than the others. I think Ricky Phillips may have made a comment or two in his interview with Andrew.

[NoMoreTails]

Bridges seemed to have been mended by 2001 with John opening for Journey on the Arrival Tour. There was talk of a mini-Bad English set, but the official word was that there was not enough time. Neal joined John on stage several times, but Jon did not.

Speculating, but I wonder if the reason Jon and Deen didn't join Neal onstage with Waite for a BE tune is because of a rift still between Jon and Waite. At the shows I saw that tour, Neal always joined Waite for a Baby's tune and Deen was always watching from the Wings.

[Red13JoePa]

Schon is so cool and laid back. The fact that the gentleman up above tried to point a finger in his direction as a troublemaker is a joke. I love that he joined Waite on stage, jsut proves what a guy he is.

[jrnyman28]

Bridges seemed to have been mended by 2001 with John opening for Journey on the Arrival Tour. There was talk of a mini-Bad English set, but the official word was that there was not enough time. Neal joined John on stage several times, but Jon did not.

Speculating, but I wonder if the reason Jon and Deen didn't join Neal onstage with Waite for a BE tune is because of a rift still between Jon and Waite. At the shows I saw that tour, Neal always joined Waite for a Baby's tune and Deen was always watching from the Wings.

That was my assumption as well.

[Monker]

There was a Force interview where Jonathan explains his side of BE very well.

Basicaly, he said:

Jonthan, Neal, and Ricky Phillips wanted to have a sort "Black Crowes" mentality for the band. They were all successful and didn't have to become a corporate kiss-ass rock band, but that is what they became. He said John Waite had the mentality that he wanted to become a rock star. He did whatever it took to become one. He said he and Neal came up with all kinds of unique and experimental sounds but John axed those ideas because he didn't think they would become 'hits'. So, they couldn't even put all of their own songs on the album. Jonathan said, "Neal Schon, Jonathan Cain, John Waite and Ricky Phillips can't write songs good enough to put on an album? I don't think so!"

"When I See You Smile" was a deal that Jonathan made with John and the label so he could get "Ghost In Your Heart" on the album. Jon didn't fight the outside songwriter idea of "When I See You Smile" and John and the label didn't fight "Ghost In Your Heart" as part of the deal.

He went on to say that they had a hit record, a number one song, but couldn't even sell 1,000 seats on tour. That told him what he needed to know.

He said the recording of Backlash became the "John Waite show". He said this experience taught him a lot about the business side of making an album. He said they were spending thousands of dollars a day to make the album. It was a bi-coastal band, with John being on the east coast and Neal and Jonathan being on the west coast, and that made it more expensive. He said the band was under constant pressure from the label to deliver because it was becoming such an expensive project. He then said he didn't want to work in this situation any longer...He did not say he didn't want to tour (though that's what happened) but he did not want to record another album.

The label saw how screwed up it was and didn't even attempt to keep them together. They basicaly propped John Waite up to the public as a face for the band. But, Neal announced Hardline to give closure to the band.

In the end, Jonathan said, a band has a fate, a life, an existence. It's like planting a tree. You either take of it, and nurture it, and keep it healthy, or it's gonna die. In the end that is what happened to BE, IT just evaporated, IT died. Now all that is left of them are the CD's that are floating around out there...so they have not completely vaporized yet.

That is the essence of the interview anyway. If anyone knows where to get a copy of it, please post it...cuz it's very good.

[ohsherrie]

So what. That is a band debating band issues. That isn't one person controling anything. That did not happen until ROR.

That's actally the way I see it too Monker. It was another poster who said Steve had control of the band and wouldn't let Jon sing. All I said was that he was a controlling person and if he didn't let Jon sing there were good reasons for it.

The true decline started with the pop crap on ROR. That is a hard pill for fans like you to swallow, but it's the truth.

And, to make a statement that more Journey fans liked ROR then didn't like it is baseless. There is absolutely NOTHING you can point to to support that as a fact...and I frankly doubt that it is true.

The true decline started with a 3 yr hiatus that followed an album on which more than half the songs were disappointing. I know that hiatus was Steve's fault, but I think he had reasons for it that we don't have the right to be judgemental about. Shit happens to lives Monker. if you've never had a down point in yours that pulled the rut out from under you your a very lucky man.

I know a several people whose favorite Journey songs are on ROR and a lot of them who really loved the album. Now, my personal acquaintences my not amount to that many people, but I would think they would represent a decent statistical sampling. You can doubt anything you like, I doubt a lot of things.

And, the songs I mentioned helped build a foundation for everything that followed. Without that foundation, I doubt Journey would have had the langevity that they have had - no matter who the singer was. To diminish the songs Gregg sang on Infinity and Evolution is to also diminish the importance of the albums themselves. Those old albums, pre-Escape, were not just a collection of hits but should also be considered as a whole.

Yet, without them, Journey would not exist....and neither would Steve Perry...at least not as you know him today.

Agreed, but you specifically asked about those individual songs and I gave you my opinion on them. After Escape their foundation was cemented. Then they needed to keep building on it by giving the majority of their fans the quality of vocals that was recognized then as the outstanding voice of Journey. The voice was a major part of that success whether or not you want it to be that way.

Because Jonathan has a voice that is different enough from Steve, or Deen's, to use as a contrasting statement in a duet. He also has more vocal talent then Neal and probably Ross.

Their was no reason to put a duet track on an album at that point other than to indulge Jon. The track would have been a whimical indulgence from a business standpoint.

Infinity was not a fusion album. Neither was Evolution. Are you going to critique that version of Journey for using Gregg's voice?

No, I already said I didn't care for his voice, that's all I have to say about it. The remark about fusion was a response to the critque's I've been reading about the new album. According to what I reading here, it sounds as if they let everyone jump in and have a stab at whatever they wanted to contribute.

[NoMoreTails]

The true decline started with a 3 yr hiatus that followed an album on which more than half the songs were disappointing.

IMO, the only disappointing song on Frontiers is Back Talk, and that would have been a cool rocker with a real vocal instead of Perry's rap crap. Other than that, side two blows side one away. To me Frontiers was a nearly perfect follow up to Escape. And on the whole, only slightly edgier than Escape and a little more progressive on side two. I may prefer it to Escape actually. By contrast, ROR has only about three songs that are not disappointing.

[NealIsGod]

The true decline started with a 3 yr hiatus that followed an album on which more than half the songs were disappointing.

IMO, the only disappointing song on Frontiers is Back Talk, and that would have been a cool rocker with a real vocal instead of Perry's rap crap. Other than that, side two blows side one away. To me Frontiers was a nearly perfect follow up to Escape. And on the whole, only slightly edgier than Escape and a little more progressive on side two. I may prefer it to Escape actually. By contrast, ROR has only about three songs that are not disappointing.

Which 3 songs? I would guess Girl Can't Help It, Raised on Radio and Be Good to Yourself?

[NoMoreTails]

[quote="NealIsGod
Which 3 songs? I would guess Girl Can't Help It, Raised on Radio and Be Good to Yourself?[/quote]

Actually I'll Be Alright Without You rather than ROR. Like the live IBAWY better with the whole band on background vocals and the extended ending. It has been especially cool when played live by Journey since 98. I also have appreciated BGTY more live. Oh yeah, actually like Eyes Of A Woman pretty well.

[Eric]

The songs Rolie co-sang on, and/or was a part of are the Journey songs that have stood the test of time and are still played on rock radio:

Wheel in the Sky
Lights
Lovin Touchin Squeezin
Anytime
Feelin that Way
Just the Same Way
Anyway You Want it

Escape and Frontiers produced bigger "hits", but most of it is relegated to nostalgia weekends or the elevator channels.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The true decline started with a 3 yr hiatus that followed an album on which more than half the songs were disappointing.

Blasphemy!
"Frontiers" is Journey at their very melodic best!
For me there is only two songs that dissapoint (Troubled Child & BT) and even they are still "ok". In fact, TC is pretty good.
What songs dissapoint you, Sherrie?

[Red13JoePa]

Oh, The Noble Cause,

You must've heard the Osaka 2001 version of The Party's Over by now... what do you say

[Guest]

ROR sucks balls. Big hairy ones.

To my recollection - and admittedly it's been a while since I've listened to it - there are no redeeming songs on that easy listening adult contemporary piece of turtle turd.

Frontiers was edgy and experimental, at least for an arena rock phenomenon like Journey. Side two was great, save BT, and even that song was at least adventurous. Side two, indeed, is what makes Frontiers so strong.

Escape was great for the "hits": Don't Stop Believin' (best melodic rock song EVER), Who's Cryin' Now (best ballad EVER), Stone In Love, and Open Arms. Actually, I don't care as much for the latter. But Escape was a nice album, overall, for its balance of hits and harder rock.

Infinity was cool and progressive-rockish.

Those are the top three Perry Journey albums, in my mind. ROR sucks huge hirsute testicles.

[Rockindeano]

ROR is NOT a bad album at all..In fact it's pretty good...just not good for a Journey record. It would have made a great Perry solo record, but we all know the crap that happened in that 2 yr span.. Makes me sick that Neal didn't kick the shit out Perry and take the Band back..

I remember Perry saying, "Journey was at a crossroads.We neede to take a different direction." Oh, ok, dude. A direction that was more to your solo crap. Right then and there, I knew we had been lied to, duped and ill conceived by the PR machine. We got a great tour(albeit a short one, because Perry had to "shut it down")..but Journey would have been so much better without this CD.

Should have sold the entire thing to some pop band. But then again, Journey was pop in 1986...thanks to you know who.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Oh, The Noble Cause,

You must've heard the Osaka 2001 version of The Party's Over by now... what do you say

Hi Joe.
No, I have not heard it yet.
I sent u a pm about the AC show. Get back to me.

[OpeningAct]

The songs Rolie co-sang on, and/or was a part of are the Journey songs that have stood the test of time and are still played on rock radio:

Wheel in the Sky
Lights
Lovin Touchin Squeezin
Anytime
Feelin that Way
Just the Same Way
Anyway You Want it

Escape and Frontiers produced bigger "hits", but most of it is relegated to nostalgia weekends or the elevator channels.

I do agree Eric, but I do hear Seperate Ways on the classic rock stations in the Boston/Rhode Island area. Don't Stop Believin and Stone and Love also receive decent play, but not NEARLY as much as AWYWI and WITS, as you point out.

[Eric]

OpeningAct,

Actually, Don't Stop Believing is becoming a "pop legend" song...so I should include that somehow in my "stand the test of time" list. I don't hear it on rock radio so much, but it is on TV and movies and lists, etc. all of the time....

[ohsherrie]

What songs dissapoint you, Sherrie?

Actually all of side B was disappointing to me when it first came out. When I listened to side A I thought this album was going to be as good as Escape, then when I listened to the other side it just hit me as being hard to listen to. Now that I've heard the songs so many times, some of them have kind of grown on me but none of them will ever be favorites of mine.