What's so bad about Van Halen 3?

[VH101]

Maybe just end it with "Ballot or the Bullet." 'nough said!

I guess that's the reason CD burners were made... or at least one reason... you can make your own VH III without HMSI, if you like.

[Toast!]

"Without You" and "Fire In The Hole" was played quite a bit around my neck of the woods. Another song I liked off of III was "The One I Want." I loved the verses in the songs.....good stuff!

Me too, Greggie. "The One I Want" is probably my favorite song off of III. It reminds of the song "5150", which was my favorite off of 5150.

Interesting thread, VH101. I'm glad I finally decided to stop by the boards after all this time.

I like III, overall. There is some really good guitar work on this album and the songs are pretty good. The high points, for me, are Without You, One I Want, From Afar, Josephina and Year To The Day. Ballot Or The Bullet is a rocker but it's not as good as some of the others.

And I'll admit that I just don't "get" Dirty Water Dog. I don't hate it, I just don't see why you like it so much.

[VH101]

Toast!!! Thanks for your input. I feel as though I have known you for over 15 years! Could that be possible? Nice avatar too!

[Toast!]

Toast!!! Thanks for your input. I feel as though I have known you for over 15 years! Could that be possible? Nice avatar too!

15 years? Nah, that couldn't be right, could it? Anyway, always happy to talk about VH and these forums are certainly the place to do it.

Another thing that I neglected to mention about III is the outro for Fire In The Hole. It's a pretty good song, but it sounds like it was getting better as it faded out.

[Fernando Ramirez]

Fernando, does Gary's voice sound out of place only because you're comparing it to previous VH albums? And, why can't this album be considered on a level different than what was presented with 'Fair Warning?' As far as the lyrics, "Ballot or the Bullet" and "Josephina" seem pretty solid to me, and I have just sung along with the lyrics to both of them. Please expound!

Thanks!

Sorry for the late response on this ... since you asked this question, I've moved into a new home... you know how it goes.

You have to compare new VH albums with his old albums. If his old ones were great, then you have to ask... why isn't the new one as good as his older ones? I'm not one of those DLR or Sammy purists, either. I also stated that I love Cherone's work and his voice... I have all the EXTREME albums on CD here at home. The combo just didnt work. I never saw them live... I don't know how they sounded live, but the studio work was not strong enough. The songwriting, the lyrics, the production... it was not good. I don't have any other albums that I've tried to give a fair shake at... I've listened (tried listening with open ears) this album, because I dearly WANT TO LIKE IT, and it just doesn't happen. There's a little bit here and there that's good, but overall, I just doesnt work.

I'm all for listening to something new. I would love it if VH did something different (for example, like the way Queen kept reinventing itself, or the way U2 reinvents itself musically)... I'm open to it, but this experiment called VHIII just failed miserably. The public voted on it... I keep voting on it everytime I put it into my CD player... I keep wanting it to be good, but a turd is a turd.

If you respond to this, then I'll put it in the CD player again, and give you a better blow by blow. It's been like 8 months since I did that!

[VH101]

Thanks for the input! I agree to some extent, but I don't think it's fair to compare III with older Halen (IMO).

I'm all for listening to something new. I would love it if VH did something different (for example, like the way Queen kept reinventing itself, or the way U2 reinvents itself musically)...

Then you must rate U2's 'Pop' as one of their greatest albums?

[Fernando Ramirez]

Then you must rate U2's 'Pop' as one of their greatest albums?

Not really. I thought ACHTUNG BABY was better!

But compare BOY with JOSHUA TREE... what you see there is some serious growth, and the difference is what makes JT a better album: better songwriting, better playing, better lyrics, better production.

I personally believe VH had musical growth all the way up to OU812, then his songwriting got a little stagnant after that. Some would say FOR UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE was the stop point for VH's music... I jumped ship after OU812 to be perfectly honest.

Sales prove that VHIII was just not a good album. It's the worst selling release they have. But it's okay that he stumbled... it's not that big of a deal. But I think that it was a mistake of him to not have put out more albums since then. Who knows, maybe the collaboration with Gary would have resulted in a better next album... it just never happened. I just want more VH material!

[YankeeRose]

The production is really bad. I have live albums that sound a lot better. Gary does not sound himself on the album. He sings a lot better on Extreme albums, the harmonies are buried as well compared to other VH albums.


My favorite songs on 3 are Dirty Water Dog, (awesome song!) Without You and One I Want.

[Wayne]

VH3 is a great album if you're not expecting another Van Halen, Fair Warning & 1984.

[NealIsGod]

VH3 is a great album if you're not expecting another Van Halen, Fair Warning & 1984.

What if you were just expecting yet another great VH album?

[Fernando Ramirez]

What if you were just expecting yet another great VH album?

Then you realized that it fell far short of the expected mark!

[VH101]

I think this album is far better than most of what would be called "rock" has been released since it was.

"HMSI" sounds great after a couple dozen beers!

[Red13JoePa]

Left For Dead, of the post VH Cherone project Tribe Of Judah was slated to be on the follow up to III. Really good song, can only imagine how great it would've been as a VH track.

[Fernando Ramirez]

In regards to III, I keep asking myself is... what was their concept for the album? What were they trying to accomplish with it?

With a new singer, the best thing they could have done was come up with some great rockers... cool upbeat music with the signature VH sound. Update it, do whatever, just make it accessible in the same way that 1984 was. I'm not saying they had to re-create their old albums, but to revisit the overall VH vibe. VH was never the kind of band U2 is. It will never create a JOSHUA TREE. Their music has always been about good times, girls, fun, partying, good humor, and at times, aggressive intensity. They needed to address this in their music.

I mean, Cherone was perfectly able to put together music like that. He did it with Extreme on just about all their albums.

Instead, EVH decided to do something NEW and DIFFERENT. I suppose it's admirable in some ways to want to do that. Maybe Ed told Gary that he wanted that spirit of "reckless abandon" in the songwriting, the lyrics, and the production. For whatever reason, it didn't work. It's not music that people can enjoy listening to. Maybe a few of the songs are okay. But overall, the product is weak. Too much filler. The lyricism is weak. The songs all have meaningless intros. The songs are frequently too long. The subject matter is often too dark and pondering. Some of them are too "introspective." There's no concept. I can't grasp what it is they wanted to accomplish. It has no spine, and so nobody could hold onto it.

One thing that bothers me is that EVH has pretty much backtracked and said that Mike Post was responsible for the album's failure. Instead of taking full responsibility. I mean, HE's the bandleader. He's got enough credibility in the music industry that he can get FINAL CUT on his albums. He had the power to shelve the album if it sucked, before it was released. And made another one. Don't tell me he doesnt have the material. Didn't he say he has enough material for 10 albums? Instead, we are supposed to believe that EVH allowed Mike Post to "ruin" the album?

The 3 new songs on the double disc greatest hits album were a step in the right direction... VH wanted to go back to the purity of his old days by stripping down the songwriting, sound, and direction of the band. He needs to continue doing this. But you can't do much without a singer.

[Paddywagon]

Boy, you nailed it, Fernando!!!

Sounds to me like Cherone just sang over some Eddie riffs in the studio...the melody lines aren't there at all...

I remember the VH 3 radio special that came out at the time (and this sums it all up for me)

I think it was Matt Pinsky (the host) who asked Gary about one of the songs, what the song was about, or something to that effect, and Gary actually asked "Which song is that one??!!" Gary didn't even know what song he was talking about!!! Sheesh!!

[UnderTheFridge]

I've always been a staunch hater of Van Halens only album with the hapless Gary Cherone. Every now and then I'll get it out for a listen, if only to reaffirm my thoughts. Well, after reading an old review, last night I decided to drag that sucker out for a spin. I cranked it up and sure enough, I wasn't imagining things, it was the same old crap. But then I began thinking about the time it was released and Van Halens place in the world.
Rumour has it that Eddie VH was somewhat worried about the age factor of Sammy Hagar (he turned 50 in 1998). Eddie was looking towards the future and he didn't know how long Sammy could sustain the pace (as it turns out, the exact reverse has happened - but thats another thread).

The music world had also changed, thanks to the grunge epidemic. This was also a concern for Eddie. Another famous rumour has it that Eddie cried "You guys have ruined me" on Kurt Cobains shoulder at the American Music Awards.

So what was the solution? Well, for Eddie, it was simple. Out with the old, in with the new. Replace your aging lead singer with a younger more contempary singer ala Gary Cherone and update your sound. No more big ballads, this was the 90s, "R'n'R and fun" was an oxymoron. If you were a serious band, you wrote serious songs. And thats exactly what VH did.

After listening to the album in this light, I have slightly more respect for what the boys were trying to achieve. Sure, the albums still not great. There are some glaring deficiencies, and I'm sure if the boys had their time again they would've done things differently. But, they stuffed up, so what, they should've moved on and continued with Gary. But instead they've now become everything Eddie dreaded - a R'n'R Dinosaur. No wonder Eddie's a drunk.

[Red13JoePa]

The music world had also changed, thanks to the grunge epidemic. This was also a concern for Eddie. Another famous rumour has it that Eddie cried "You guys have ruined me" on Kurt Cobains shoulder at the American Music Awards.

What an interesting comment. God, this mystifies me. Even at that time, in '98 Van Halen was (along with bands like Aerosmith and U2) way above being redeuced to irrelevancy by grunge. Grunge was no threat whatsoever to VH. They were one of the bands who never suffered like the journeys and foreigners and survivors, poisons of the rock world.

[VH101]

I wonder if Ed, Al, and maybe Mike really liked Extreme's 'III Sides To Every Story' and were trying to create something similar. There are parallels between the two albums: "Am I Ever Gonna Change"-"How Many Say I"; "Politicalamity"-"Ballot or the Bullet"or"Dirty Water Dog". Not that 'VH3' is anywhere near as good as 'III Sides,' but I think there's a connection (besides Gary). It's as if 'VH3' was an unstructured attempt at a 'III Sides'-type album.

[Red13JoePa]

I wonder that too. Starting with name.
III Sides is an excellent record. Very sophistocated.

Not as good as VH III, thogh, IMO

[NealIsGod]

I wonder that too. Starting with name.
III Sides is an excellent record. Very sophistocated.

Not as good as VH III, thogh, IMO

You are a relentless proponent of VHIII, arentcha 13?

Yeah, I think if Sammy had never been dumped from VH, and they had kept releasing a CD every 2 or 3 years, they would have still been taken seriously in the rock world, a la Bon Jovi and U2. They were a top level band that should be disgusted at the way they let prestige like that go down the drain.

[Red13JoePa]

They can go right to the upper echelon again with a release with sam or dave (both both!!!) fronting. They have that exemption from irrelevance forever.

[NealIsGod]

They can go right to the upper echelon again with a release with sam or dave (both both!!!) fronting. They have that exemption from irrelevance forever.

Yeah, but one last cash grab won't earn them any respect. It has to be a real reuniting.

I wonder what Wolfie's plans for the future are. Since he doesn't seem to be doing anything else, maybe Ed's grooming the boy to lead the next generation of rockers?

[Red13JoePa]

I wonder that too. Starting with name.
III Sides is an excellent record. Very sophistocated.

Not as good as VH III, thogh, IMO

You are a relentless proponent of VHIII, arentcha 13?

Yep. I'm the Cubby of Van Cherone.

[Fernando Ramirez]

Boy, you nailed it, Fernando!!!

Sounds to me like Cherone just sang over some Eddie riffs in the studio...the melody lines aren't there at all...

I remember the VH 3 radio special that came out at the time (and this sums it all up for me)

I think it was Matt Pinsky (the host) who asked Gary about one of the songs, what the song was about, or something to that effect, and Gary actually asked "Which song is that one??!!" Gary didn't even know what song he was talking about!!! Sheesh!!

Thanks, Paddy! That comment about Matt Pinsky is hilarious. I probably know the songs better than he did then, and I don't even know the titles... with the exception of DIRTY WATER DOG.

[Fernando Ramirez]

I've always been a staunch hater of Van Halens only album with the hapless Gary Cherone. Every now and then I'll get it out for a listen, if only to reaffirm my thoughts. Well, after reading an old review, last night I decided to drag that sucker out for a spin. I cranked it up and sure enough, I wasn't imagining things, it was the same old crap. But then I began thinking about the time it was released and Van Halens place in the world.
Rumour has it that Eddie VH was somewhat worried about the age factor of Sammy Hagar (he turned 50 in 1998). Eddie was looking towards the future and he didn't know how long Sammy could sustain the pace (as it turns out, the exact reverse has happened - but thats another thread).

The music world had also changed, thanks to the grunge epidemic. This was also a concern for Eddie. Another famous rumour has it that Eddie cried "You guys have ruined me" on Kurt Cobains shoulder at the American Music Awards.

So what was the solution? Well, for Eddie, it was simple. Out with the old, in with the new. Replace your aging lead singer with a younger more contempary singer ala Gary Cherone and update your sound. No more big ballads, this was the 90s, "R'n'R and fun" was an oxymoron. If you were a serious band, you wrote serious songs. And thats exactly what VH did.

After listening to the album in this light, I have slightly more respect for what the boys were trying to achieve. Sure, the albums still not great. There are some glaring deficiencies, and I'm sure if the boys had their time again they would've done things differently. But, they stuffed up, so what, they should've moved on and continued with Gary. But instead they've now become everything Eddie dreaded - a R'n'R Dinosaur. No wonder Eddie's a drunk.

Wow, great post. Lots of real interesting stuff in there! I was wide-eyed! I'm the same way with III... I keep pulling it out... listening to see if maybe I had to grow up a bit to appreciate it... but then I think: "you were right, it sucks...".

That thing about Sammy getting old... if it's true, that's VERY interesting. I think Sammy will still be rocking at 75! He looks younger than I do, and I'm in my mid 30s!

That Cobain thing really pisses me off. Instead of crying on Cobain's shoulder, Eddie should have kicked his ass. To this day, I HATE THAT Nirvana crap. I never bought any of it, and to this day, I despise it every time it comes up on the radio. And to hell with anybody GLORIFYING that Cobain idiot.

[Fernando Ramirez]

I wonder if Ed, Al, and maybe Mike really liked Extreme's 'III Sides To Every Story' and were trying to create something similar. There are parallels between the two albums: "Am I Ever Gonna Change"-"How Many Say I"; "Politicalamity"-"Ballot or the Bullet"or"Dirty Water Dog". Not that 'VH3' is anywhere near as good as 'III Sides,' but I think there's a connection (besides Gary). It's as if 'VH3' was an unstructured attempt at a 'III Sides'-type album.

Very interesting. I think Extreme's III Sides to Every Story is brilliant. VH III is not a pimple on the ass of Extreme's album. The way NUNO was playing back then... made it simply brilliant.

[VH101]

I wonder if Ed, Al, and maybe Mike really liked Extreme's 'III Sides To Every Story' and were trying to create something similar. There are parallels between the two albums: "Am I Ever Gonna Change"-"How Many Say I"; "Politicalamity"-"Ballot or the Bullet"or"Dirty Water Dog". Not that 'VH3' is anywhere near as good as 'III Sides,' but I think there's a connection (besides Gary). It's as if 'VH3' was an unstructured attempt at a 'III Sides'-type album.

Very interesting. I think Extreme's III Sides to Every Story is brilliant. VH III is not a pimple on the ass of Extreme's album. The way NUNO was playing back then... made it simply brilliant.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a better, more cohesive, interesting album than 'III Sides.' I just don't know where I'd rank it against classic VH albums.

I guess that's why there should be categories when making favorites lists. Then I could sneak it in at the top of a 'contemporary rock' list vs. a 'classic rock' list.

[jscrocks]

I ALWAYS THOUGHT GARY WAS A VERY GREAT SINGER,CAN SING ALL STYLES OF MUSIC.THE VH RECORD WAS A GOOD RECORD.BETTER THAN DIVER DOWN.AND BETTER THAN OU812 IN MY OPINION.AND ALSO BETTER THAN 1984.BUT THE BEST VAN HALEN RECORD BY FAR IS FAIR WARNING.THEY WILL NEVER TOP THAT WHITH ANY SINGER INCLUDING ROTH AGAIN.I THINK ROTH WILL BE BACK AGIAN.TO MANY THINGS POINT TO THAT.I WANT BE THE SAME AS IT WAS BUT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SEE THEM THOUGH.

[jrnyman28]

AND ALSO BETTER THAN 1984.

[Cato Alumni]

VH3 is fairly weak. It has one excellent tune, Dirty Water Dog, and a couple of fairly good ones: One I want, Without You, Josephina. Still, none of this is classic VH by any means and a step back from Balance or anything else they've done.

The rest of the songs are either boring or completely unlistenable. It wasn't Cherone's fault -- he sounds fine; the melodies and riffs just aren't compelling in any shape or form.

If it was just an E.P. without the filler it might be worthwhile owning it. But the casaul VH fan should never come anywhere near it.