iTunes Review: Generations

[Red13JoePa]

So again, you don't know GC was written for arrival, you just think that.

[80s man]

Anyone who thinks that Generations is better than Raised On Radio should be shot in the face with a machine gun.

Well said!!!!!

[junky]

Where the hell did you 2 get either of these "facts?"
GC written for arrival and the Bfly voc being an actual early demo?

Not nec. disputing , either

Here's the quote from Tom Size, engineer on Generations:

Well, we worked hard...and fast on this record. It was tracked on analog tape, then transferred to ProTools, where we did all the overdubs. The glitches you hear on "Butterfly" was due to the fact that we loved the Demo vocal so much we used that for the record. It took a little manipulation to get the vocal to fit the new track. All these vocals were done in a two week period, Raised on Radio took six months.
I think there are some great songs on this CD.
On another note, I hope you all buy the VTR CD. It's got some great material on it, and it sounds great.
Cheers,
Tom Size

This is from a BT thread last year where some of us were questioning the sound quality of Generations.

Of course, at that time, we didn't know of Augeri's vocal problems.

[The_Noble_Cause]

So again, you don't know GC was written for arrival, you just think that.

So I take it u think it's a coincidence that the same two outside writers featured prominently on "Arrival" (Tribble and Blades) show up on two tracks on "Generations"?

The fact that the band has said they had a treasure trove of leftover Arrival songs must also mean nothing to you.
The fact that they used Arrival material on Red 13 must mean nothing.
The fact that Arrival left overs have found their way onto a Mickey Thomas solo disc, a Jack Blades solo disc and Cain's last album ALL MUST MEAN NOTHING.

You really think Neal got with Jack Blades again to produce ONE track for "Generations"?
You make me embarassed to be a Journey fan.

[Red13JoePa]

I'm not saying they mean nothing, I'm saying it's irritating as hell when you come out with these opinions and conclusions in the guise of flat out stone cold fact as though you are Fuckin Herbie Herbert when you're some dude with a thought.
That's all. Just stemming from the hipocrisy of you saying I misled Steve.

[SF-Dano]

I think it had everything to do with Augeri's vocal decline.
The band had been forced to variegate the lead singer spot in concert to give Augeri a break.
So "Generations" reflected where the band was at live in that respect, but the revolving door of singers was a choice out of necessity.
"Gone Crazy" was initially written for "Arrival" and presumably, was meant to be sung by Augeri.
I see the radical alteration of the song as a vote of no confidence in their then frontman.
Why burden him with the majority of tracks when they knew he could not pull them off live or in any promotional appearance?

I think there are a few things wrong with this argument, TNC. First and foremost, Journey and the word "promotion" shouldn't be used in the same sentence, as they are proven they are completely clueless when it comes to promoting themselves or their material! As for the vocals being shared out of neccessity...I don't think anyone, at this point, can't deny Augeri was experiencing some vocal problems (and this is being diplomatic). That said, I'd rather listen to Augeri at 50% than Neal, Jonathan or Ross attempting to sing!

I think one of the reasons Neal and the boys were so thrilled to be rid of Perry is that Perry would NEVER have gone along with the three stooges (vocally speaking) singing lead on anything with the name "Journey" on it. Neal and the boys felt freed from the "shackles" that were Perry, while some of us long-time Journey fans wish they would have upheld the Journey name with a competent lead vocalist!
John from Boston

I guess you are forgetting Neal sang lead on a tune on Departure. Perry was there at the time and it does have the Journey name on it. Not mention the fact that Rollie sang leads often as well during Perry's tenure. I understand you personally do not like Neal's voice, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Sure it is not flashy, and he doesn't have great range, but he is definately not as bad as Ross, and in my opinion on par with Cain. The only thing I think Neal felt freed from when Perry left was restrictions on how to present his guitar playing with in a particular tune. Just my opinion on that though.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would not want Neal as the lead singer of Journey. But if he were to duet or take a lead on one song, here or there, I would not be disgusted by it.

[SF-Dano]

Double post. Sorry.

[NealIsGod]

Now, don't get me wrong, I would not want Neal as the lead singer of Journey. But if he were to duet or take a lead on one song, here or there, I would not be disgusted by it.

Me neither. I would love for them to play "No More Lies" live again.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm not saying they mean nothing, I'm saying it's irritating as hell when you come out with these opinions and conclusions in the guise of flat out stone cold fact as though you are Fuckin Herbie Herbert

When it comes to this post, I'm just a guy with common sense.
The presense of outside writers (the two that were featured most prominently on "Arrival") is a good indicator that those two tracks are "Arrival" left overs.
This logical assuption is bolstered by the band's use of "Arrival" left overs on "Red 13" and their own admittance of having a stockpile of unused "Arrival" material.

Just stemming from the hipocrisy of you saying I misled Steve.

When it comes to TapeGate, u are misleading Steve.
At first u said tapes were not in use at all and then you conceded that tapes were being used for certain words only.
Do I have to explain how ridiculous of a notion that is?
A singer may get caught on high notes or whole songs, but occasional words?
You're kidding, right?

As the forum's chief denialist on TapeGate, u are the last person to be enlightening Steve on what went down.
Furthermore, if u really think Deano and others were just going on intuition, u are a bigger fool than I thought.

[Red13JoePa]

They were used in 2005.

I didn't think they were, they were, I was surprised, I am over it.

Big fucking deal


You're brilliant, I am benighted, maybe someone'll give you a free porno rental at TLA for that.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They were used in 2005.

I didn't think they were, they were, I was surprised, I am over it.

As an admitted flip-flopper, what makes you think you are in any position to brief Steve on the "hows" and "whys" of what happened.
You couldn't keep your own story straight.
What's to say you won't change your tune again tommorow?

You're brilliant, I am benighted,

No, I'm just a guy that had it 100% right from the beggining and never wavered on my facts.
You, on the other hand, went so far as to dismiss Svante as a crackpot, said u couldn't hear the tapes on ur UK boot and also boasted of Augeri's vocal capabilities on a nearly 100% lipsynched dvd.

..maybe someone'll give you a free porno rental at TLA for that.

Didn't you hear? Place is closed down for maintenance. Some hearing-impaired maniac in a Nitanny Lions Jersey was caught fondling himself in the children's section last night.

[Red13JoePa]

Your facts?
Deano is the one who came to the plate and put his ass on the line with facts, not you. It was HIS full name address and pictures out there standing by his case.

Now you're dovetailing onto his successful campaign to replace SA and cashing it in in the form of being infalible on pure speculation on events before 2005.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Your facts?
Deano is the one who came to the plate and put his ass on the line with facts, not you.

I was the first person to spill the beans on TapeGate on this forum.
The thread was deleted and I left the band to hash out their own problems.
Dave has mentioned this previously.
Who was first really doesn't matter to me.

Also, several people pitched in and helped with the blog.

It was HIS full name address and pictures out there standing by his case.

And look at the grief it caused him.
Disgruntled Augeri-idolizers came from far andf wide to persecute him.
He even recieved death threats.
I didn't want any of that to fall on my head and I warned him prior to him undertaking the blog.
Deano is owed a GREAT deal of credit.

Now you're dovetailing onto his successful campaign to replace SA and cashing it in in the form of being infalible on pure speculation on events before 2005.

Not at all.
Whatever insider information I have, I try to share with the fans. That is really the end of it.
Anything I've said about events pre-2005 are based on information I have been given.
Take it, leave it, but don't pretend to know the answers, when you yourself were amongst the blindest of the blind.

[Red13JoePa]

I pretend no more than you do to know answers.

And also, I was online the night it outed on here, liar. It was DAVE, DAVE 28 who outed it, not you. Once Dave outed Dean's theory, sure, you lept out of the weeds and piled on a bit, but you were looking for Azoff henchmen outside your window disguised as shrubs the entire time.

For clarification purposes, as we have a lot of new guests, J28Dave was not with Dean on it when he outed taptegate that night, he just stated the allegations as they were he was not part of formulating the thing.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I pretend no more than you do to know answers.

When it comes to TapeGate, I'm not pretending.
Neither is Deano or Bionic or JourneyRox or Svante.
Some here simply know more than others.
You are free to believe whatever you want though.
Just don't pretend to give Steve the straight dope, when you had your head up your ass months prior.

And also, I was online the night it outed on here, liar. It was DAVE, DAVE 28 who outed it, not you.

What an addle brained old stooge you are.
Dave outed it by citing what I had said in my deleted post.
You even sent me a PM after I first spilled it asking for more info.
Dave confirms every word of this in the last post of this thread here:

http://forums.melodicrock.com:/phpBB/vi ... no#3696476

Once Dave outed Dean's theory, sure, you lept out of the weeds and piled on a bit, but you were looking for Azoff henchmen disguised as shrubs the entire time.

I didn't want trouble and had assumed the band would settle this on their own.
I was wrong, of course.

[Red13JoePa]

Holy shit what a doozie that thread is...

I think dave was saying you outed by giving hints like Dean was but that everybody kept going, "waht's that? what's that mean?" and you wouldn't respond so Dave put the list out there.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I think dave was saying you outed by giving hints like Dean was but that everybody kept going, "waht's that? what's that mean?" and you wouldn't respond so Dave put the list out there.

No, no, no.
Dave is making an explicit reference to the deleted thread where I spilled ALL and duked it out with you publicly on the forum.
Realizing the error of my ways, I erased all my posts in the thread and replaced them with nonsequitirs.
Deano encouraged everyone to delete all tape-related comments from the thread, as well.
NIG erased his posts. So did Deano. You may have too, I don't recall.
Soon after, the thread was (understandably) deleted. You even sent me a follow-up pm inquiring about it.

But, its ok, go ahead and call me a liar again, its cool.

[Red13JoePa]

All depends on how you look at it. I say your lying b/c without Dave just coming right out you still be typing unqualified things like "Tapegeri" and having peeps go "huh? what?" and pming people telling them to delete questions they asked about tapes lest the goons emerge from under your bed.

Oh, and you know goddam well I did what you asked and changed all my material in that thread.

[The_Noble_Cause]

All depends on how you look at it.

I made a post where I point-blank stated EVERYTHING that was happening.
There was no dropping hints or tantalizing tid-bits.

I say your lying b/c without Dave just coming right out you still be typing unqualified things like "Tapegeri" and having peeps go "huh? what?"

I don't recall dropping hints like that. It's not my style. Maybe once or twice.
I know Dean was doing that for awhile.
If it was so prevalent, can you find some posts where I did that?

and pming people telling them to delete questions they asked about tapes lest the goons emerge from under your bed.

TapeGate was supposed to remain a secret.
For the sake of the band (and to a lesser extent my own hide), I tried to respect that.
So did Deano, until u publicly pressured him to spill everything (as u did me).

Oh, and you know goddam well I did what you asked and changed all my material in that thread.

Just a few posts up you claimed the post where I let the cat out of the bag never existed.
Care to make up your mind, sir?

[Red13JoePa]

My mind's made up, madam.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And also, I was online the night it outed on here, liar. It was DAVE, DAVE 28 who outed it, not you. Once Dave outed Dean's theory, sure, you lept out of the weeds and piled on a bit, but you were looking for Azoff henchmen outside your window disguised as shrubs the entire time.

As I already stated, Dave's "outing" just re-iterates what I said in my deleted "spill the beans" post.
Here is the post that kicked off a chain of events that forever changed the band Journey.

http://forums.melodicrock.com:/phpBB/vi ... l&start=90

[Red13JoePa]

What that cinches is that 28 and you were talking about the hints one night in the missing thread, a few other posters were pestering you guys for specifics, Dave who was in-the-know on the theory along with you me and some others, just ended the suspense, came right out and typed (paraphrasing): "Dean thinks he has found a multitute of evidence suggesting....(and he went into the details)"...you protested, bugged him to remove it, he prolly did and THAT's what's being talked about in your cinching thread.

I was there, I was in the long lost thread, in real time along with you guys. Believe me, my jaw was on the floor when I saw it dragged by J28 out from under the porch into the high noon sun. I laughed and said "Holy shit, it's out there now wether dean wanted it or not."

Good times.

[The_Noble_Cause]

What that clinches is that 28 and you were talking about the hints one night in the missing thread,

Dave didn't read the deleted thread until I had already erased or white-washed all of my posts within it.
He wasn't even a part of the tit-for-tat that ocurred between me and you.
Someone else in the thread had quoted me before I could delete my tell-all expose and that's how Dave stumbled across what I wrote.

a few other posters were pestering you guys for specifics, Dave who was in-the-know on the theory along with you me and some others, just ended the suspense, came right out and typed (paraphrasing): "Dean thinks he has found a multitute of evidence suggesting....(and he went into the details)"...you protested, bugged him to remove it, he prolly did and THAT's what's being talked about in your clinching thread.

Quite an imagination you got there, boy.
Obviously you haven't the foggiest idea what thread is even being discussed.
Allow me to explain....

It started when I rightfully called u a faggot and told u to go back to BT after u expressed ur fondness for Augeri's unique verbal pronunciation of the words "Sweet Butter..fly".

In return, u then taunted me for believing in TapeGate (which until then had only been disucussed in PM).
Fed up by your stupidity and against my better judgement, I SPILLED ALL right then and there.

Dave wasn't involved. There was no dropping hints.
Deano looked on from the sidelines saying how big of a story this was going to become and that we should all delete our posts at once.

Again, Dave describes this deleted scuffle/tell-all thread here:

http://forums.melodicrock.com:/phpBB/vi ... no#3696476

I was there, I was in the long lost thread, in real time along with you guys. Believe me, my jaw was on the floor when I saw it dragged by J28 out from under the porch into the high noon sun. I laughed and said "Holy shit, it's out there now wether dean wanted it or not."

Good times.

You're a no good dirty assed liar who would say anything at this point to save face.
Dave28 will swing by here eventually and you'll have to change your explanation for the umpteenth time.
Better get started!

[Red13JoePa]

LOL, we may be talking about 2 different threads. But 28 is the one who first broadcast the actual nuts and bolts and mechanics of tapegate.

You then belatedly, once it was out, jumped on.


If you want us to believe that you were so worried about dudes in peacoats, rex harrison hats, carrying tommy guns loitering out in your corridor muttering "Azoff.....Must....Silence...This Dude" over gate, then how can we also believe that you were that champion of truth, justice and all that is right and came out on a public international forum with this? You're either scared or you're not.
Kindly make up yer mind, sir.
Oh that's right, I did it. I goaded you into risking your hide and going with it, it was worth it to expose my pigheadedness.
So in essence, I, his biggest fan, am ironically responsible for slipping the noose around Augeri's neck.
Me, his biggest fan in here.


The horror.

Is anybody but you and me reading this dustup anymore, TNC?

[Enigma869]

I guess you are forgetting Neal sang lead on a tune on Departure. Perry was there at the time and it does have the Journey name on it. Not mention the fact that Rollie sang leads often as well during Perry's tenure. I understand you personally do not like Neal's voice, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Sure it is not flashy, and he doesn't have great range, but he is definately not as bad as Ross, and in my opinion on par with Cain. The only thing I think Neal felt freed from when Perry left was restrictions on how to present his guitar playing with in a particular tune. Just my opinion on that though.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would not want Neal as the lead singer of Journey. But if he were to duet or take a lead on one song, here or there, I would not be disgusted by it.

Honestly, I wasn't really "forgetting" anything. I just personally think Neal has a VERY mediocre voice that doesn't belong on Journey material. I definitely do agree with you that Neal has a voice that is "on par" (as you put it) with Cain. That said, I don't view that statement as much of a compliment, as neither guy has a voice that belongs singing lead for Journey, at least not in this fan's opinion!

John from Boston

[fredinator]

Is anybody but you and me reading this dustup anymore, TNC?

I am!! I learned a lot by reading that awesome thread... Why don't you give TNC credit, Red13? Sounds like he was involved from the beginning, but what do I know... Anyway, stressful situation; it must be awful for Journey; I can see where they would like this controversy to just die, so even though I would love to know more, I am going to drop it now...

P.S. I am really struck by how devoted all of Journey's fans are--it's really something.

[The_Noble_Cause]

LOL, we may be talking about 2 different threads. But 28 is the one who first broadcast the actual nuts and bolts and mechanics of tapegate.

That's pattently false as proven by the two threads I provided.
As Dave28 will no doubt swing by and confirm, I was the first guy to blow my top and foolishly spill all.
I even provided the link to the thread where Dave "broadcast the actual nuts and bolts" and lo and behold, he credits none other than me!


http://forums.melodicrock.com:/phpBB/vi ... l&start=90


I don't really care about such pettty bullshit, but I do care about being called a liar when I strive to be anything but.

You then belatedly, once it was out, jumped on.

I did come back to the forum after a sabatical. This is true.

If you want us to believe that you were so worried about dudes in peacoats, rex harrison hats, carrying tommy guns loitering out in your corridor muttering "Azoff.....Must....Silence...This Dude" over gate, then how can we also believe that you were that champion of truth, justice and all that is right and came out on a public international forum with this? You're either scared or you're not.
Kindly make up yer mind, sir.

I don't think there's anything to clarify here.
As I already stated, I posted EVERYTHING on TapeGate. Then out of respect to Augeri and on the reasonable expectation that the band would pull their own shit together, I deleted what I wrote and the thread was rightfully yanked.
You're 100% right - I was leery of the grief that would likely befall me if I singlehandedly took on the band. Look at all the trouble Deano went through. That is why I have said repeatedly that every fan owes Deano a debt of gratitude.

Oh that's right, I did it. I goaded you into risking your hide and going with it, it was worth it to expose my pigheadedness.
So in essence, I, his biggest fan, am ironically responsible for slipping the noose around Augeri's neck.
Me, his biggest fan in here.

This is 100% true.
Deano has said the same thing. In fact, in the thread when TapeGate exploded (after my deleted one) Deano had this to say about you, "Your buddy 13, dared me to put out my evidence, my feelings...I finally did."
On the same night he said "Certain people gave me an ultimatum..spill it or shut it. I chose to spill it."
He also alluded to you being a backstabber over the creation of this thread: http://forums.melodicrock.com:/phpBB/vi ... y&start=90


Also, if u were truly Augeri's biggest fan, I think u could tell his voice from a tapedeck. You would know his limtations and his range. You couldn't and still can't.

Is anybody but you and me reading this dustup anymore, TNC?

I am fully aware how pathetic this thread is, but, I'm not willing to let u re-write history and call me a liar, either.
Maybe some of the unaquainted will find it a rip roaring good read.

[YoungJRNYfan]

saint John is right....how dare you have your own opinion. Ludacris if you ask me.

[jrnyman28]

Wow, how threads morph on this board.

Haven't been on board for over a week and this is the first thread I read. Definately interesting. But I better say a thing or two since my name is heavily involved.

There was a thread where TNC point blank stated a lot of the "conspiracy". He then went and deleted his posts. I read his posts in quotes used, thank you for quoting people!! Dean stayed out of it at that time, even commenting he was glad to. However, later on, there was a thread where Dean was "hinting" and I got frustrated. That is when I laid out all the rumors/allegations I had heard. And that is what lead to Deano making this a real "mission", that is when it became truly public and stayed public. TNC spit it out, but then licked it back up. Once Deano started puking it up it didn't stop.

Oddly it makes both scenarios somewhat true depending on perspective: TNC did first make it public, but I outed it and it stayed out.

Furthermore, I can see that JoePa is correct that TNC is stating something as fact when it is actually an educated guess. Don't mean to drag this back up, but yes TNC makes sense. However, JoePa is right that it has not been factually reported that GC was an Arrival-era leftover.

Cmon guys, on both counts you are pretty much both correct but getting stuck on semantics.

Now, what is this "misleading" and "enlightening" Steve stuff about? That really has me confused....

[Red13JoePa]

I stood accused of misleading stevew, a poster, earlier in the thread when I said not every song of every show of 05 required the taped assistance.

Then me and TNC went to the goddam matteresses about the whens and hows and whos of that INSANE night on the boards last winter sometime.

'S all over, now we're spooning again.


PS, D28 I did use a disclaimer that it was not your theories and ideas that you were only the messanger knowing that you can't (sometimes don't feel like it) get in here daily to holla at us, your old crew. Hope everything's going good for you