JC (Friga) Saint or Sinner - take no prisoners?

[mistiejourney]

Mistie and Fire, I made some changes to a post that was quoted by you guys, can you guys do the same?

Thx

No problem - couldn't find the original one so just deleted my responses! Lord knows I have enough opinions to make up for them!

[conversationpc]

How can it be a load of crap when you admit it doesn't sounds as good? THAT is what I was saying.

That's not what you said. You said it was memorable ONLY because of Ross' bass.

Right. And you said:
"I've heard the intro played without bass and, though it doesn't sound as good..."

You're saying that Ross' bass adds something to it and THAT is what I was saying!

You didn't say that Ross's bass just adds something. You said the intro was basically ALL Ross by this statement...

BTW the DSB intro is memorable ONLY because of Ross' super riffs...

I only said that it didn't sound as good, not what you said above about Ross's bass being the reason it is memorable.

[Monker]

The band had a following that followed because of the MUSIC that JOURNEY played. That music changed and as Neal has even acknowledged - they lost a big portion of their fans BUT ultimately gained a much larger one.

That is NOT the same statement as "they had to start completely over." You are abandoning your agrument and restating what *I* said.

The bottom line is there is NO evidence that they had to start completely over when they hired Perry. That is just you BS'ing an argument.

It's baffling to me how you can recognize that things changed with the musical change (SP and focus on vocals) but you can't define that for what it was: starting over. They took a complete DETOUR from what they were doing. How is that NOT starting over?

Because that is NOT what it was. They shifted focus, lost some of their audience and gained others. That is NOT the same as scrapping everything they did previously and doing something new. Even WITH Perry they performed the early songs...especially during the Infinity tour. That is NOT what I would call "starting over." They took the current audience and expanded on it...losing some but gaining others. In this case, JSS' 1 for 10 comment DID apply.

Right. No argument there. I'm arguing that the success of the album was NOT necessarily via the "genius" of JC.

Not exclusively, that's true. But the FACTS show that Journey only had mediocre success prior to Escape and HUGE success after Jonathan joined. *EVERYTHING* points to that. Three albums, a live album, a soundtrack, COMBINED did not equal the success of ONE album with Jonathan. To not give Jonathan a large portion of the credit for the bands success in the 80's is to ignore Journey's history and the facts of what happened.

It was an added vehicle. You can argue to what degree all you want but that's not the point. In the Steve Perry/JOURNEY interview which aired during the success of E5C4P3 Steve Perry was asked about JOURNEY videos. He said that JOURNEY was one of the first bands to make them. I believe he said, "They're funny lookin' but we did 'em." I have the interview on cassette somewhere. He also noted that MTV indeed WAS an important vehicle in the PROMOTION of bands. He noted that when they first started there wasn't any MTV around and that you had to be good LIVE in order to get record deals. In other words, MTV made it possible for artists that perhaps weren't the best musical performers be successful through IMAGERY.

Again, in 1981, MTV did NOT have THAT much influece. If Perry said the above in 1981, he was wrong. By 1983 or so, he would have a valid point - but NOT in 1981.

Without running on the point that I was trying to make was that MTV was a factor. To what degree is debatable.

MTV had no major influence on Journey success. I would say the liength of Perry's hair had about as much influence on Journey's success as MTV. Journey's videos sucked. They were not known as this band that made "must see" videos. As you pointed out, Perry's SOLO videos were better then Journey's. Journey built their success with their live shows and good songs - not videos.

And, your comments about Jonathan's looks being so important are absolute bullshit. JC's looks were somehow important to Journey's success? More important then his influence over over the songwriting? Give me a break, that is such an ignorant statement that I can't believe someone would make such an argument on a Journey forum.[.quote]

I venture that it's something you never heard anyone express. Had you made the observation then I'm sure yuo'd think it was pure genius.

I would never agree that the 'looks' of any member of Journey were more important to their success then the music. If I felt that was the case in 198x, I would have never become a fan.

JC's mug gave JOURNEY a fresh new look

DSB, Open Arms, WCN, etc, gave Journey a new "sound". That sound, like it or not, was heavily influenced by Jonathan. THAT is what was needed in Journey....not some new 'baby' face.

Youth is where the $$$ is.

You're talking back in 1981...Why are you using the word "is"?

Back then, it didn't make such a difference. Radio was different. I remember radio playing "Open Arms" and "Iron Man" on the same station. This is BEFORE the demographics were so studied and everything played was polled for user reaction. What brought the dollars in was airplay and selling albums. Everything was so broken down and categorized until shortly after this time...

It's always been that way. If you do NOT think looks are important to being successful in music then you're so far out in left field that you'll need NASA to help guide you back!

LOL. For bands that emphasized it, sure it was. But, Journey didn't. That is a simple fact.

You're right. MTV just got together one day and started making it all up as they went along.

Basocaly, yes.

MTV killed the radio because of what I quoted SP above in regards to bands no longer needing to be great musicians but rather have great images.

Explain why I can still listen to music on the radio but can't watch videos on MTV...if you REALLY believe video killed the radio station. You are simply WRONG.

MTV changed how artists got exposure, but it did NOT 'kill radio'.

Sure. You can turn on the radio. That doesn't mean it isn't dead. The radio today hasn't half the impact that it once had in promoting artists. In other words, it's dead. Killed by MTV.

Oh, please. You can turn it on, but it's dead. Yeah, you make perfect sense. VIDEOS are what died.

Right. That's why I said "pretty much assured".

Geez - man I don't know. I don't know what's worse - when words get stuffed into my mouth or when plain old black and white type just isn't clear enough.

And, you said that a record deal and radio play went 'hand in hand'. That is just ignorant. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Saying a contract means it is pretty much assured that they will get on the radio or that a contract goes hand in hand with radio play, is truly ignorant.

Even after three albums with Perry, they did not have THAT much airplay. Look up how many top 10 singles Journey had prior to Escape.

All I can say is that I recall JOURNEY being on the radio ALL THE TIME when I was a kid. I grew up near Cleveland so maybe that's why.

I don't care about that. Look at the facts. ONE top ten single, a handfull of top twenty singles...and it took three albums, a live album, and a soundtrack.

Journey with Jonathan equaled that with ONE album - Escape.

I don't care about your 'personal experience'. The FACTS show that Journey was NOT all that successful prior to Escape. Sure, they had 'some' success...but not NEAR what they became in 1981-1987.