Journey and Perry...The Legal Stuff

[Enigma869]

I know this topic has come up before, but there is still something I'm not quite clear on. Did Perry ever have any rights to the name "Journey"? Did he legally have to sign off on the name being used, without him? I assume he had to sign something, to allow "Journey" to continue performing many songs that he wrote? I know that he did sign off on the permission for DSB to be used in the Sopranos finale (I assume other members of Journey, who wrote the song, had to do the same). I also know that he was VERY instrumental (in fact, I think he was the only Journey member involved) with the 1981 DVD concert that was released.

So, now my question is this...I heard that Journey was re-recording the classics with Arnel. Does Perry have to approve this, if it is to be released, or did he already sign all of his rights away? It just seems that if he had to approve the use of DSB for the Sopranos, that he must still retain some of his legal claims with these songs he wrote, and therefore could prevent a new Journey release, that included mostly songs he wrote or co-wrote. Someone please set me straight on this!!!!!!


John from Boston

[Rip Rokken]

The experts will have to answer fully (especially on the band name issue), but I've heard the contract that restricted the band from rerecording any hits he sang on expired recently. From what I understand, the main reason they wanted to rerecord them was to have a set of those songs they had complete control of, as S.P. still has a say in how the originals are used. Also, it does appear that any fears anyone had of the band trying to "improve" on the originals are allayed, as it was recently reported that they were trying to get the new recordings to sounds as close to the originals as possible.

[*Laura]

I heard that Journey was re-recording the classics with Arnel. Does Perry have to approve this, if it is to be released, or did he already sign all of his rights away?

The 1998 agreement between SP and the rest of the band has expired.They can re-record the classics now.

[Rockindeano]

Yep. They are free to drive this train deep into the ground now. They already have done a superb job thus far.

[Deb]

The experts will have to answer fully (especially on the band name issue), but I've heard the contract that restricted the band from rerecording any hits he sang on expired recently. From what I understand, the main reason they wanted to rerecord them was to have a set of those songs they had complete control of, as S.P. still has a say in how the originals are used. Also, it does appear that any fears anyone had of the band trying to "improve" on the originals are allayed, as it was recently reported that they were trying to get the new recordings to sounds as close to the originals as possible.

And that to me, is so sad.

[Enigma869]

The 1998 agreement between SP and the rest of the band has expired.They can re-record the classics now.

That's interesting to know, Laura. Thanks for the clarification. I never would have guessed that the contract they had signed had an expiration date!



John from Boston

[The Sushi Hunter]

Really depends on what the stipulations were in the previous contracts but more so if these contracts have expired. For instance, most of these songs we are talking about are older then twenty years. Once the contracts expire and the rights are in a new owner's hands, anything's possible. That's pretty much how Michael Jackson got a hold of and owned much of the copyrights of the Beatles songs. And that's when you start seeing parts of awesome songs being dubbed to automobile commercials and such. I think it's pretty much automatic after twenty years, copyrights are sold.

Also, wasn't the band Journey established before Perry joined it? I thought that there was a singer before him. So perhaps he had to basically agree that whatever he creates or takes part in creating while under the Journey name, the rights will stay with Journey.

Some colleges are the same way. I've seen it where a sharp medical student will be given an outragiously large grant to practice their profession, yet in order to get that grant from the institution, the student will be required to sign a contract with the college for royalty and copyright purposes. So the student gets the funding from the school and during his/her practice, will invent something for example for the heart which the college will own all the rights to it because of the contract that they had with the student, you follow me? So it's a give and take type of situation, the student wouldn't be able to conduct their studies without the funding that the school is providing, so in exchange, the school will provide the money for equipment and resources for the student to practice, and in exchange, whatever the student invents will be owned by the institution.

Bands are most likely operating just the same. In exchange for Perry's talent and potential, the band Journey will provide him with the means to accomplish his dreams involving music. But whatever Perry creates or aids in creating, which includes but is not limited to lyrics, sounds and styles, will legally be owned by the band Journey.

[Enigma869]

In exchange for Perry's talent and potential, the band Journey will provide him with the means to accomplish his dreams involving music. But whatever Perry creates or aids in creating, which includes but is not limited to lyrics, sounds and styles, will legally be owned by the band Journey.

Interesting theory. I would personally be shocked if Perry actually has no ownership of songs that he personally wrote. I can't imagine ANY musician EVER giving up those rights. It's one thing to say that after a set period of time (say 10 years) that the band is free to re-record any of these songs, but I would be shocked if it means Perry still doesn't have some stake in those songs. Maybe Laura or Dean could clarify this. Does Journey, and not Perry actually own all the songs that Perry wrote or co-wrote? One other question...If these re-recordings of the classics ever see the light of day, for commercial release, would Perry still be entitled to royalties for any of his songs, or did this contract force him to relinquish any of those claims?


John from Boston

[jrnyman28]

Speculation: Perry legally secured his place in Journey and with that came his partnership. Therefore he had to sign off of the Journey name.

We know that Perry could have been a big problem to Neal and Jon continuing as Journey. He could have tied them up legally if he really did not want them to go on. All members DID for an agreement which allowed Journey to continue. But the details are not known.

All writer's have to agree to how their songs are used by others. Perry, Jon and Neal all have to agree to allow DSB to be used in movies, shows, commercials, etc. (I don't think Neal and Jon really care as long as they get paid. Perry is the one who seems to truly consider the vehicle.)

As for rerecording their music...apparantly there was a specific agreement with a time limit on that. We know that the Arrival DVD was a specific "exception" to their agreement. On a side note: any time there is an image to the music that Perry was involved in creating, he has say so in how that music is used. Which is why it is different to play the music live and to sell a dvd of playing the music live.

[The Sushi Hunter]

In exchange for Perry's talent and potential, the band Journey will provide him with the means to accomplish his dreams involving music. But whatever Perry creates or aids in creating, which includes but is not limited to lyrics, sounds and styles, will legally be owned by the band Journey.

Interesting theory. I would personally be shocked if Perry actually has no ownership of songs that he personally wrote.

John from Boston

He's probably got some ownership, maybe 2% or something like that. I can say that Journey most likely behaves much like a board of directors meeting when it comes to doing business. Perry will get 2% of the royalties plus another 5% of what profits come in from Arnel's work. So Perry's got a choice, continue getting the 2% or take that with an additional 5% by going along with Journey and Arnel. NOTE: These percents I'm throwing out are strictly an example for the purpose of this discussion. I have no clue as to what the actual percents are what so ever.

[marco17]

To add a question within the question here... Now, what's the deal with Augeri and Soto since they were singers for the band? What type of legal guidelines are they held to....if any... with regards to performing Perry-era Journey material now that they are not part of the band? I know Jeff has still done Journey stuff as he's still doing shows all the time, but with an unclear future for SA performances, even though he did that benefit in FL, and sang some Journey material, I was wondering about this and how it might differ between the two of them.

[The Sushi Hunter]

To add a question within the question here... Now, what's the deal with Augeri and Soto since they were singers for the band? What type of legal guidelines are they held to....if any... with regards to performing Perry-era Journey material now that they are not part of the band? I know Jeff has still done Journey stuff as he's still doing shows all the time, but with an unclear future for SA performances, even though he did that benefit in FL, and sang some Journey material, I was wondering about this and how it might differ between the two of them.

The only thing I know about SP, SA and JSS is from this board. With that in mind, I'm willing to bet that SP is getting way more then SA and JSS will ever get in way of royalties. SA was there for some years so he'll get a little something. I seriously doubt that JSS will get anything decent because first off, he wasn't there long and second, what real earth shattering hits did Journey put out during the time he was there? None that I know of. He was simply a fill in like a substitute teacher pretty much. From what I've read here, not even a single album was released using JSS. So I think it would be safe to say JSS is completely assed out of the royalty factor. Hell, Journey has put an entire album together with Arnel and they've not even done a live gig with Arnel yet.

So SA will get a little something, JSS will get zero but the man who remains on top I say so far is SP because so much work was completed utilizing him. We have to wait and see how AP will fair on the deal.

[jrnyman28]

I believe SA will only benefit financially from any sale of Arrival, Red13 or Generations material (and Remember Me). Since the band plays none of that live he will not see anything from performance.

SA, like anyone, can PLAY any song he wants to. This is why you still see JSS doing it. But he cannot sell any image or recording for retail profit without the agreement of any other writers involved.

[mikemarrs]

years after the original kiss broke up in 1980 with peter criss and ace frehley a year or two later the band continued to meet with lawyers and pay those guys annual payments and bonuses on the kiss name even though they were no longer in the band.i think gene and paul wised up and eventually bought out peter and ace for a one time fee back in the 80's.they say when the original kiss reunited in 1996 gene and paul were the only full partners and even though ace and peter were original founding members they were on a salary and that lead to complications once millions rolled in because kiss had the top grossing tour moneywise in 1996 and i think 97 and 98 as well according to pollstar.well anyway when kiss got back together around '95 or so they ace and peter were desperate and broke touring the country together playing clubs and riding on an old bus and gene and paul went to some motel down in texas and made them an offer they could not refuse at the time and the band got back together though ace and peter had no say so in business affairs this time.....

[Enigma869]

So SA will get a little something, JSS will get zero but the man who remains on top I say so far is SP because so much work was completed utilizing him. We have to wait and see how AP will fair on the deal.

I definitely agree that any royalties that Augeri would get would be solely devoted to the three CD's he recorded, as the front man of Journey. Who knows...maybe the contract he signed doesn't even allow for that. I think in Augeri's case, it doesn't really matter much, because any music that Journey continues to sell won't be related to the Augeri era. Journey's reputation was built on the voice of Perry, before Augeri, and still is, after Augeri. While I think Arrival was a VERY good CD, I can't imagine too many people are lining up at Best Buy to purchase "Arrival".

John from Boston

[youkeepmewaiting]

years after the original kiss broke up in 1980 with peter criss and ace frehley a year or two later the band continued to meet with lawyers and pay those guys annual payments and bonuses on the kiss name even though they were no longer in the band.i think gene and paul wised up and eventually bought out peter and ace for a one time fee back in the 80's.they say when the original kiss reunited in 1996 gene and paul were the only full partners and even though ace and peter were original founding members they were on a salary and that lead to complications once millions rolled in because kiss had the top grossing tour moneywise in 1996 and i think 97 and 98 as well according to pollstar.well anyway when kiss got back together around '95 or so they ace and peter were desperate and broke touring the country together playing clubs and riding on an old bus and gene and paul went to some motel down in texas and made them an offer they could not refuse at the time and the band got back together though ace and peter had no say so in business affairs this time.....

Plus wernt theystill using Peter Crisis image?

[mikemarrs]

peter criss does not own his own image.gene simmons and paul stanley own the ace and peter makeup image and they also have all kiss images copyrighted.ace frehley and peter criss have two people playing in their makeup right now which is tommy thayer playing ace and eric singer plays peter and thats because gene and paul own those designs.

[AR]

years after the original kiss broke up in 1980 with peter criss and ace frehley a year or two later the band continued to meet with lawyers and pay those guys annual payments and bonuses on the kiss name even though they were no longer in the band.i think gene and paul wised up and eventually bought out peter and ace for a one time fee back in the 80's.they say when the original kiss reunited in 1996 gene and paul were the only full partners and even though ace and peter were original founding members they were on a salary and that lead to complications once millions rolled in because kiss had the top grossing tour moneywise in 1996 and i think 97 and 98 as well according to pollstar.well anyway when kiss got back together around '95 or so they ace and peter were desperate and broke touring the country together playing clubs and riding on an old bus and gene and paul went to some motel down in texas and made them an offer they could not refuse at the time and the band got back together though ace and peter had no say so in business affairs this time.....

Plus wernt theystill using Peter Crisis image?

Any Kiss questions I can answer. You're not far off with the statement though. Only thing I would discount was about them being desperate and broke (Ace and Peter) on the Bad Boys tour.

Kiss owns the right to all the makeup. However, Ace was allowed to put it on for the Dunking Donuts commercial recently even though he is not in the band now.

[venomnation]

I think one thing that's being overlooked here is the fact that a lot of those songs that Steve Perry "co-wrote" were "co-written" with one of two people (Cain or Schon) both of which are still active members of the band. I would "think" that would give the two of them the right to do with them as they choose...they're as much "THEIR" songs as they were Perry's....that's just my .02 though

[youkeepmewaiting]

i dont fully remember if i read correctly, but wasnt Cris stil credited as to playing on 1 or 2 albums he wasnt also?

Becuase he couldnt make it too the studio because he was drunk etc.

[Rip Rokken]

However, Ace was allowed to put it on for the Dunking Donuts commercial recently even though he is not in the band now.

I loved that commercial, and was shocked as could be that Gene let that fly...

[mikemarrs]

i dont fully remember if i read correctly, but wasnt Cris stil credited as to playing on 1 or 2 albums he wasnt also?

Becuase he couldnt make it too the studio because he was drunk etc.

peter criss didn't play at all on unmasked in '80 although he is on the album cover.anton fig of david letterman played drums on it.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Any Kiss questions I can answer.

What members of KISS were playing during that Superbowl halftime show and what year was that? What members, if any, were featured in that 90's issue of Playboy where all the chicks featured were all dressed out like KISS?

At the time the movie came out in theaters, I did enjoy watching Gene Simmons starring in Runaway back in 1984.

[Rip Rokken]

At the time the movie came out in theaters, I did enjoy watching Gene Simmons starring in Runaway back in 1984.

"Runaway" is an old guilty pleasure of mine -- that was a cool film! Also, Gene played a terrorist in an action film with Rutger Hauer, but I can't remember the name.

[Rick]

At the time the movie came out in theaters, I did enjoy watching Gene Simmons starring in Runaway back in 1984.

"Runaway" is an old guilty pleasure of mine -- that was a cool film! Also, Gene played a terrorist in an action film with Rutger Hauer, but I can't remember the name.

Wanted Dead or Alive?

[CatEyes]

At the time the movie came out in theaters, I did enjoy watching Gene Simmons starring in Runaway back in 1984.

"Runaway" is an old guilty pleasure of mine -- that was a cool film! Also, Gene played a terrorist in an action film with Rutger Hauer, but I can't remember the name.

"Wanted: Dead or Alive"

It seems that much of that movie has played out in reality recently.

Love Ruger Hauer. Did you see him in "The Hitcher" (the original) s-c-a-r-y!!!

Cat

[The Sushi Hunter]

At the time the movie came out in theaters, I did enjoy watching Gene Simmons starring in Runaway back in 1984.

"Runaway" is an old guilty pleasure of mine -- that was a cool film! Also, Gene played a terrorist in an action film with Rutger Hauer, but I can't remember the name.

Yeah, something about Simmons acting puts out some great vibes. My favorite line right off the top of my head from the film was: "Well that was good Ramsey but not good enough.....enjoy the view?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCSPIj9u0qw

[annie89509]

Anybody else notice on the original record liner notes, all the song credits pre-Frontiers listed Nightmare as holding publishing rights? Nightmare, we all know is(was) Herbie's company. Subsequently, after Escape, all the songs written by the guys started showing different copyright/publishing monikers. They appear to have a connection with the songwriter. For example: Street Talk Tunes, Love Batch Music (for SP); Rock Dog, Fingers of Joy Music (Neal); Frisco Kid Music, So Much Music (Jon).

Could this be one of the reasons why HH is so resentful about SP "taking control"? And the rest of the guys seeming to support Steve to the astonishment and detriment of Herbie? Remember SP's statement on BTM regarding their relationship? "I think Herbie and I are similar in a lot of ways. He likes to have a say when it comes to things that affect him, and I think I do, too, maybe more so than the rest of the guys."

And this, priceless visual from Herbie on the Castles Burning interview. "We're all sitting in this long conference table, everybody's got their lawyers and accountants with them. Perry's sitting on one end with his, and I'm on the other end. It was like watching a tennis match. We're shouting at each other, and all of them sitting on both sides of the table would turn their heads, left and right, in synch."

Anyway, in the instances where Steve goes up against Herbie to protect their music, I can see why they would line up with him. After all, it is their blood and sweat when they're recording and touring. The bitterness that HH has shown in his interviews--toward all of them--is rather obvious.

[The Sushi Hunter]

My.....that's a lot of information. Maybe too much.

[journeyrock]

Anybody else notice on the original record liner notes, all the song credits pre-Frontiers listed Nightmare as holding publishing rights? Nightmare, we all know is(was) Herbie's company. Subsequently, after Escape, all the songs written by the guys started showing different copyright/publishing monikers. They appear to have a connection with the songwriter. For example: Street Talk Tunes, Love Batch Music (for SP); Rock Dog, Fingers of Joy Music (Neal); Frisco Kid Music, So Much Music (Jon).

Could this be one of the reasons why HH is so resentful about SP "taking control"? And the rest of the guys seeming to support Steve to the astonishment and detriment of Herbie? Remember SP's statement on BTM regarding their relationship? "I think Herbie and I are similar in a lot of ways. He likes to have a say when it comes to things that affect him, and I think I do, too, maybe more so than the rest of the guys."

And this, priceless visual from Herbie on the Castles Burning interview. "We're all sitting in this long conference table, everybody's got their lawyers and accountants with them. Perry's sitting on one end with his, and I'm on the other end. It was like watching a tennis match. We're shouting at each other, and all of them sitting on both sides of the table would turn their heads, left and right, in synch."

Anyway, in the instances where Steve goes up against Herbie to protect their music, I can see why they would line up with him. After all, it is their blood and sweat when they're recording and touring. The bitterness that HH has shown in his interviews--toward all of them--is rather obvious.

Good observation Annie. In some ways, I don't blame HH for his bitterness. He was the one that set them on the road and made them superstars, only to be kicked in the teeth for it.

I just can't imagine that SP would agree to anything that would at any time deplete his ownership in ANY song he has co-written. He is too passionate about his music. It must be a severely complicated proposition that none of us are privy to.

Just for the record, I personally think that the reason the re-recordings have not yet been released to the public is because SP is fighting it and forcing them to halt release in the meantime. He may not win out, but I can best bet he will give it his all to protect his music. It's a cinch neither of the other two nitwits care.