To you "fiscal conservatives" who are so afraid of

[conversationpc]

Truly laughable, to say the least. I guarantee you, I am *far* more educated on taxation and economics than you are, or most here.

Some people are educated idiots, though.

[RossValoryRocks]

You also don't know too much about tax theory.

Truly laughable, to say the least. I guarantee you, I am *far* more educated on taxation and economics than you are, or most here.

Sure you are. Nice claim, back it up with some proof rather than spewing info that can anyone can pull off of Wikipedia. What have YOU done in you life that supports your statement here? Even run a small business? Ever run a medium or large business?? Ever run a multi-million dollar project? Ever actually read the info on the fair tax??? What advanced degrees do you have?

There are people here who have done all these things and more, pretty arrogant of you to say you know more than most here, let alone me.

[CatEyes]

You also don't know too much about tax theory.

Truly laughable, to say the least. I guarantee you, I am *far* more educated on taxation and economics than you are, or most here.

Sure you are. Nice claim, back it up with some proof rather than spewing info that can anyone can pull off of Wikipedia. What have YOU done in you life that supports your statement here? Even run a small business? Ever run a medium or large business?? Ever run a multi-million dollar project? Ever actually read the info on the fair tax??? What advanced degrees do you have?

There are people here who have done all these things and more, pretty arrogant of you to say you know more than most here, let alone me.

i cannot wait for this

[CatEyes]

They deserve whatever they get, as will the Democrats after people get sick of them being in power after the next four years.

My money is on eight years ...... this is, if I had any money.......

Cat

[strangegrey]

Truly laughable, to say the least. I guarantee you, I am *far* more educated on taxation and economics than you are, or most here.

Some people are educated idiots, though.

Yep, mostly computer programmers and IT people...oh wait, most of the time, you don't need a college degree for that!

[strangegrey]

Sorry to Sherrie for letting this thread turn into urine...

[Memorex]

Historically, lowering taxes increases revenue. This includes the last round of "Bush" tax cuts.

Not always so. The economy isn't that 'simple'...perhaps it is in Hayseed George's peasized mind. But in reality, it's a far more complex animal with more than just one factor like taxes making a change.

You need to take into account ALL factors, before making a policy change to stimulate growth.


In this particular case, we are heading into a recession....that much has been established. However, what has *not* been established is whether or not the recession we are headed into is, by public perception, a severe one.

If the majority of the public perceives that we are headed into a severe recession, something I personally feel we are headed towards....when people receive their 'tax rebate checks' as a part of this current 'stimulus package, they will *not* reinject that money back into the economy. They're going to save it. With the perception that banks are having trouble right now, some people might not even put it in their bank accounts (giving the banks capital to play with).

The end result is that when public perception of the recession is bad enough, people don't reinject tax breaks back into the economy. They horde it....

This problem is further compacted by a potential public perception that tax breaks/rebates are not permanant. These current breaks arent going to be lasting. Hell, the Bush breaks sunset in another few years and we're back to pre-bush tax rates. Some people know that...and those that do, might not reinject their money into the economy.


We've yet to see how this plays out, but I'm betting that a tax rebate is going to do shit for this economy. We're headed into a much worse recession than we were in 2000-2001....and fucking with interest rates and giving back a measly rebate check isn't going to do dick....

Ceasing massive (wasted) outflows of cash in the middle east and bringing solders home to work on domestic infrastructure will make a difference to the economy. Fat fucking chance of Hayseed George doing that however...

I'm not talking about tax rebates. I honestly have no idea how that will or won't work. Taxes are shared by the employers and the employees. You need to balance it at the lowest possible amount to stimulate jobs and wages. The more taxes I have to pay, the more I need to earn and the more my employer pays. I'm an independent, so I approach every subject differently. Whenever there is a huge battle, I try and do my research. It's difficult on things such as abortion, death penalty, etc because those are personal issues and I really can't expect everyone to feel the way I do. But something like tax cuts; you can actually get down and do the math. After the last round of tax cuts, jobs and revenue increased. That's not to say you can't go too far and tip the scale.

I truly feel like the government should have certain programs in place to help its citizens and people all over the world. And I believe we should all share in that burden. But there has to be limits.

By the way - poor people do not pay income taxes. Never have, never will. In fact, if you are poor and have children, you receive a refund that far exceeds the money you paid in (Earned Income Credit). Where we need to stand up is all the other BS taxes. Phone tax, car tax, food tax, yadda yadda. I can't stand it.

I know first hand that government programs are seriously broken and inefficient. I know we sometimes go too far in how much we have to spend to provide certain services. I just feel like those things should be fixed before I'm asked to provide any more money. I'm in a high enough bracket that I am getting killed on taxes and I do not consider myself rich at all. We need a fair system that promises an efficient government for the dollar. We are so far from that it's not even fixable. And that is the fault of all government and the fault of the people for not demanding changes.

Here’s an example – Illegal Aliens. Our country has decided for one reason or another to allow the inflow of people from another country. Fine. But how can my government, who should represent me above non-citizens, come to me and ask me for more money before figuring out a way to get those folks to pay their share of income tax? Instead, we raise taxes to pay for services (out of humanity) for those non-citizens that don’t carry insurance or whatever. It is so basic to me. Fix the issue so that hard-working citizens of this country do not have to carry an unnecessary burden. And by fix the issue, I mean anyone that works should be required to pay just like everyone else. Legal or not.

As far as war - again, it's a moral issue at best because war creates jobs and money and innovation. I assure you that wars are fought at times for that reason alone. I'm not saying it's right, but the cost of the war is really a non-issue. No services have suffered and I assure you money is being made. Not on oil or some other conspiracy theory, but from rebuilding a country and innovation and jobs, etc. The scales can tip there too, I suppose. This down turn in the economy has nothing to do with the war. I can’t imagine Americans are spending less after a 7 year war and we have not raised taxes for the war. I can’t see one economic impact the war has had except for the deficit. And when Suzy Smith goes to Macy’s and needs to decide how much to spend, she is not thinking of the deficit.

I’m in the corporate bankruptcy business and there is only one thing that is fact. The economy is cyclic. Period. The dot-com collapse hurt us and we were headed into rough waters and then 9/11 hit. People nested out of the need for security and the housing market took off like wildfire. It collapses and it has even a bigger impact on the economy. Hell, the end of an 8 year presidency always seems to have a downturn affect. It’s never one thing. It’s adjustments. Hell, my company was on the brink of closing during these great times. Money was cheap and nobody was filing bankruptcy. But guess what, I sure look to have a busy and profitable year or two (or five).

[conversationpc]

Truly laughable, to say the least. I guarantee you, I am *far* more educated on taxation and economics than you are, or most here.

Some people are educated idiots, though.

Yep, mostly computer programmers and IT people...oh wait, most of the time, you don't need a college degree for that!

It was a joke. Trying to keep it light. Loosen up a bit, will ya?

So IT people and programmers without degrees aren't as smart as people with degrees? Just curious. (FYI, I do have a degree... )

[Memorex]

Here is where I see future economic problems. The gap currently being created between the wealthy and the poor is going to widen to astronomical proportions. We have two types of kids anymore. Those that sit around and play video games and have no ambition and those that are over-achievers. There is a growing number of highly intelligent kids not entering the work force or going on to higher education (or finishing high school). These gaps are being filled by immagrants and a lot of their money is sent back to their home countries. If this continues over another generation, you are going to see many Americans making tons of money off the backs of immagrants and the rest trying aimlessly to get by.

Fix the education system. Find a way to teach parents to be better parents. Figure out how to motivate kids that are truly intelligent and wasting away.

By the way, I have no answers.

[Rockindeano]

If this continues over another generation, you are going to see many Americans making tons of money off the backs of immagrants and the rest trying aimlessly to get by.

That's a great point. The separation of classes is why illegal immigrants are needed here. Don't be fooled, Bush himself wants them here to help all the corporations who don't want to pay "Americans" a proper wage.

Mike is 100% correct.
The middle class is about history.

Congratulations GOP.

[RedWingFan]

If this continues over another generation, you are going to see many Americans making tons of money off the backs of immagrants and the rest trying aimlessly to get by.

That's a great point. The separation of classes is why illegal immigrants are needed here. Don't be fooled, Bush himself wants them here to help all the corporations who don't want to pay "Americans" a proper wage.

Mike is 100% correct.
The middle class is about history.

Congratulations GOP.

GOP. If you think the democrats seriously want to seal the border and enforce immigration laws, I got news for you. Immigration is part of Bush's "compassionate" conservatism. Which I've never been a fan of.

[conversationpc]

That's a great point. The separation of classes is why illegal immigrants are needed here. Don't be fooled, Bush himself wants them here to help all the corporations who don't want to pay "Americans" a proper wage.

You won't get much of an argument from me on this point. Immigration enforcement has been lax, to say the least.

Mike is 100% correct.
The middle class is about history.

Congratulations GOP.

While we're handing out congratulations, we might as well give one to the Dems for helping millions of Americans become depended on government programs, handouts, welfare, etc.

[ohsherrie]

Now can you so me documentation of your claim that the stellar Clinton economy was really due to somebody else?

Didn't the Republican-controlled Congress pass all those laws that stimulated the economy? Much of the economic stimulus that happened back then was part of the Republican's Contract With America, wasn't it? That doesn't mean that Clinton shouldn't get some credit for it because it happened on his watch, but he's far from being the only one to get credit for it.

I dunno, I'm a edjucated idjit. Show me whar to read up on that.

[Memorex]

Topical. I just got my pay stub. I received a standard 3% increase to my base. Over 1/3 of that was taken for taxes. Not complaining, just saying...

[conversationpc]

Now can you so me documentation of your claim that the stellar Clinton economy was really due to somebody else?

Didn't the Republican-controlled Congress pass all those laws that stimulated the economy? Much of the economic stimulus that happened back then was part of the Republican's Contract With America, wasn't it? That doesn't mean that Clinton shouldn't get some credit for it because it happened on his watch, but he's far from being the only one to get credit for it.

I dunno, I'm a edjucated idjit. Show me whar to read up on that.

Here...I'll just do what you normally do...

[sarcasm]I'd post a link but you're probably too unintelligent and busy beating up your wife to be able to understand it.
[/sarcasm]

[ohsherrie]

So IT people and programmers without degrees aren't as smart as people with degrees? Just curious. (FYI, I do have a degree... )

It's not going to matter in this country for long unless the government stops deciding what an average, livingwage should be and who deserves one. The IT jobs are going to India and Pakistan by the thousands.

[7 Wishes]

I have to put my 2 cents in here. The main reason why so many people in this country are in financial distress or ruin right now is that they do not know how to live within their means. I know MANY MANY people who have $25k + in credit card debt. Why? They always need more, bigger, better. They buy cars they can't really afford.

Between college, grad school, my son's astronomical medical bills (he had experimental therapy to treat his autism and it was not covered by insurance), my ex-wife being physically unable to work, and two cars inexplicably breaking down, we were suffused with massive debt at one point...over $30,000 as of 2003. I worked my ASS OFF to pay down that debt, and get to a point where I was financially comfortable and debt-free...

My point is...when we were married, we didn't live extravagant lifestyles. Our only vices were rock concerts and CD's. Until I went back to training on top of teaching voice and piano, we were almost bankrupt. And I made much more money teaching than I did in health care administration.

Not everyone who incurs massive debt is living beyond their means. Most households require two incomes, not one. And the child suffers as a consequence of both parents working. I survived on four hours sleep per night for three years. I have the same damned piece of crap Dell I purchased in 2001. I have a Toyota and a Honda with crappy stereo systems. And I live in a two bedroom apartment.

[ohsherrie]

I'm sorry you and your family have had to go through so much Daniel. I'm also sorry that the uninformed paint airheads who misuse credit with the same brush as those who find themselves in financial difficulty or even crisis through no fault of their own.

[conversationpc]

Between college, grad school, my son's astronomical medical bills (he had experimental therapy to treat his autism and it was not covered by insurance), my ex-wife being physically unable to work, and two cars inexplicably breaking down, we were suffused with massive debt at one point...over $30,000 as of 2003. I worked my ASS OFF to pay down that debt, and get to a point where I was financially comfortable and debt-free...

My point is...when we were married, we didn't live extravagant lifestyles. Our only vices were rock concerts and CD's. Until I went back to training on top of teaching voice and piano, we were almost bankrupt. And I made much more money teaching than I did in health care administration.

Not everyone who incurs massive debt is living beyond their means. Most households require two incomes, not one. And the child suffers as a consequence of both parents working. I survived on four hours sleep per night for three years. I have the same damned piece of crap Dell I purchased in 2001. I have a Toyota and a Honda with crappy stereo systems. And I live in a two bedroom apartment.

We've gone through some of the same kind of crap that you're dealing with, so I know how you feel. It sucks big time. Sorry you have to go through that.

[7 Wishes]

Geez...I appreciate it, but I wasn't saying it to get sympathy. I mean, a lot of people have been there. That was my point. There is validity to people living beyond their means, and that happens a lot, but it's not by any means the only reason. That was the only reason I interjected that story.

[Rockindeano]

One other thought.

My daughters Brit fiance sells real estate in London suburbs, he does fairly well. They were here last spring and I asked him (not to probe but to understand dollar v pound) what a typical paycheck for him was. He told us that the month prior he earned the equivilant of $7,000 American dollars. I then asked about take home pay, he thought for a moment and said in his best English accent "about $1,400 American dollars." I about fell outta my chair. So think about that next time you want the gov to do stuff for you.

So what?

"Taxes are the necessity of a civil society."

You Cons don't to pay a dime, yet expect to have nice roads, new airports and fast mail. Get over yourselves.

When used properly, taxes are a good thing.

I lived in Canada, and the tax rate is about 50%. Howeever, I had a terrific transit system, free healthcare(the best in the world), amazingly clean, and other things the government did that made life an enjoyable experience. Didn't miss the 50% at all.

Now I am sure Lie Finder, conversationpc, and RWF will take out the "best in the world" and c/p about 560 links saying otherwise.

God, living there was so much better. I would love to go back.

[scarygirl]

Are all 'rich' people Republicans? Don't Dems have money too?
I'll readily argue that most, if not all, of the wealthy are indeed fiscal conservatives. People that have wealth and lose it are irresponsible morons. Maintaining and growing wealth is a very difficult discipline that requires conservative financial thinking.

But again I ask, why do people assume that being 'rich' is a Republican problem?
I'd like to hear what the wealthy Democrats have to say. And perhaps more importantly, I'd like to hear what the socio-political whiners have to say about all the wealthy Democrats. Hhm?


later~

What exactly is a socio-political whiner?

Is that someone who thinks that if trillions of dollars are being spent by this government, at least some of it could be much better spent assuring that economic conditions are such that equitable employment opportunities exist for the 3 million citizens who had living wage jobs, retirement funds, and health care benefits before their companies were paid out of those trillions to move their jobs out of this country?

I guess that makes me one then. I'm not asking for handouts and neither are they. I'm asking for a government that is truly of, by, and for ALL the people. I thought everybody else had the right to that. It appears though that that particular right is allocated according to how much money one earns to pay taxes on.

I don't know of many people who wouldn't rather live on what's left after paying 30% in taxes on $100,000 than 15% on $30,000 and in most of the situations that currently exist due to plant closings, it's not how hard or how many hours they worked that made the difference.

Those $30,000 jobs are all that are left to millions of people who've lost their jobs so corporate officers can make millions, and our government facilitated that.

If trying make people realize the reality of that makes me a socio-political whiner, then I'll wear it like a badge of honor.

Oh and I don't give a damn what the party affiliations are for those people who lost their jobs or those CEOs who benefitted from it. This was done by the Bush administration and he's republican.

It also happens to be most of the conservatives on here(whether republican or not) who seem to think those people are responsible for their own hardships, and this government shouldn't be held responsible for any part of it. These people should work three minimum wage jobs, sell their homes, buy a trailer, sell their cars, buy a clunker, buy their clothes at Goodwill, eat spam and dried beans and then hopefully they can afford to pay for private health insurance. Afterall, that's all they deserve for losing their jobs in areas of the country where there aren't any others.

For some reason they seem to think that they would have to pay more in taxes if the government spent their tax dollars in a different way rather than paying it to companies to move American jobs to China and Mexico and at the same time eliminating taxes that were be paid on higher earnings by the middle class here.

Osherrie. I pay 9 percent on a 30k a year income not the 15 percent you speak of. Yes, 30 k a year can suck. Trust me I know all about it, but that's why I have yet to start a family and do all the other things I would some day like to do. Not saying it's not going to happen, but to do that I need more income, and that is squarely up to me, not the government.

I, at one time worked three jobs just to get by. That's why I went to college so I can qualify for better than minimum wage. Life isn't perfect, far from it, but all in all I consider myself much better off than five years ago. For one thing, I just recently paid off all my credit cards. To facilitate that I had to live cheaply and within my means. I can't remember the last time I bought myself a nice outfit . Good will for me seems like a dream! My summer clothes are my winter clothes and my winter clothes are my spring clothes which means I wear the same outfits all the time. I also canceled my expanded cable (I still have basic. $9 a month), my home phone, and my health club membership. All my home goods, and groceries are bought at Wal Mart which saves me a ton. It also doesn't hurt that I buy mostly store brands. The other thing is, I'm not a home owner either. I know I can't afford it right now, so I just don't. I rent an apartment instead which in a lot of ways saves me money. If something breaks down, like the plumbing or dish washer I'm covered. I also don't have to worry about things like PMI, and expensive home owner's insurance. A lot of things you list, like nice cars and homes, those are wants, and not true needs. There something to be saved up for. Nothing wrong with living in a trailer either. I lived in one for years and years, and I came out alright.

What I'm trying to say is, not all republicans, conservatives whatever you want to call us are rich. Far from it, we just want to keep what we got and have the ability to keep adding to. That doesn't mean you shouldn't help your neighbor, and I bet you five bucks most republicans do. I am all for a safety net for the least among us. I haven't said this for fear of getting whiplashed, but I have a very close family member who is on public assistance. If things don't change, she'll probably be on there for life. I love her no matter what, and if I had the money to make everything right, I would. In the meantime though, I have to keep on keeping on because most likely she's going to be living with me when she's old and I'm going to need everything I got to keep us both afloat.

[conversationpc]

Comparison of taxes paid by a household earning the country's average wage


--- --- -- Single No Kids ----- Married 2 Kids

Canada-- ----31.6% ---------21.5%

United States --29.1% ----11.9%

United Kingdom 33.5% --27.1%

New Zealand -20.5% ----14.5%

Australia-- ---28.3% -------- 16.0%

France -------50.1% --------41.7%

Spain ------39.0% ------33.4%

Germany ---51.8% ------35.7%

Italy -------45.4% -------35.2%

Japan ------27.7% --------24.9%

Viva la France, huh?

[ohsherrie]

Scarygirl, I wish only the best for you in your endeavors.

[Rockindeano]

LOL, I knew Fact/Lie Finder would roll out a pre printed BS taxation poll.

[conversationpc]

You Cons don't to pay a dime, yet expect to have nice roads, new airports and fast mail. Get over yourselves.

Huh? Have you been drinking too much today? Lay off the malt liquor.

I lived in Canada, and the tax rate is about 50%. Howeever, I had a terrific transit system, free healthcare(the best in the world), amazingly clean, and other things the government did that made life an enjoyable experience. Didn't miss the 50% at all.

If I had to pay 50% in taxes, my family would be living in a small apartment, struggling to save enough money to SOME DAY, perhaps, buy a home. 50% is ridiculous. It's not the government's money and shouldn't be.

God, living there was so much better. I would love to go back.

If you loved it there so much and the U.S.A. is so horrible, then please do so. Otherwise, shut your trap and deal with life instead of complaining about it.

[Monker]

LOL, I knew Fact/Lie Finder would roll out a pre printed BS taxation poll.

What's wrong with that chart? I didn't make it up. It's on Wiki.

LOL...That is absolutely hillarious!

If you are a Fact Finder you better find somewhere else to get your facts other then Wiki.

Too funny!

[7 Wishes]

Now, as a dual citizen of the U.S. and U.K. I probably have more insight on this topic than most on this board.

The taxation in Britain is quite extravagant but certainly nowhere approaching 82%! The upper income brackets can expect to lose about 35%. In Sweden, it's closer to 40%. I have lived and worked in both countries.

Anyway, carry on. This is a good thread. Lots of information to sort through.

[Rhiannon]

This whole arguement is about as useful as tits on a boar hog.

[conversationpc]

LOL, I knew Fact/Lie Finder would roll out a pre printed BS taxation poll.

What's wrong with that chart? I didn't make it up. It's on Wiki.

LOL...That is absolutely hillarious!

If you are a Fact Finder you better find somewhere else to get your facts other then Wiki.

Too funny!

Being on Wiki doesn't make it inaccurate. However, perhaps the following would be more accurate...

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree