Tax rates and informations since 1913

[ohsherrie]

Excuse me, but where do any of you get your information? Do you upper class guys have an in with the admin?

I like to see real numbers from the IRS or the CBO, and the Tax Foundation is pretty useful as well. Some goober who don't work don't carry much weight with me for some reason. Call me goofy.

Goofy doesn't begin to describe what I'd call it. The guy got his information from credible sources, but you won't look past the fact that he's unemployed and unattractive. That says a lot about you and the value of your opinions.

[Barb]

I urge the Barry Sotero supporters to just give 6 minutes of their time before voting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwjnT4eJJvs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeC8BE-2T_k&feature=related

he's nothing but a phony hypocrite. all talk, no substance. not surprising. thanks for the info though.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

I urge the Barry Sotero supporters to just give 6 minutes of their time before voting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwjnT4eJJvs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeC8BE-2T_k&feature=related

he's nothing but a phony hypocrite. all talk, no substance. not surprising. thanks for the info though.

Wonder if she was proud of her country the day she got all those raises in pay?

[ohsherrie]

You think $100,000 is upper class? Are you kidding? My wife and I don't make quite that much together but we would certainly still be firmly ensconced in the middle class even if we were.

No Dave, I don't call anybody upper class. I'm no more class struck than I'm star struck. I don't think a person's income or celebrity makes them fundamentally worth more as a human being.

What you said brings up a good point though.

The income level required to maintain what constitutes a middle class lifestyle varies greatly depending on the region of the country you live in, as do the wages and cost of living.

In the rural areas and small communities of the southeast and midwest a family of four can live a very comfortable middle class lifestyle on $60,000 - $75,000 a year. Exactly the same lifestyle would require at least $150 -$200 thousand in most major metropolitan areas.

A family living in the DC area of VA making $200,000 with two kids now probably lives on about the same level as somebody in south central VA making $60,000 with two kids. That is if there are still any jobs here that pay that much.

That's why somebody's income level doesn't impress me. I used the $100,000 figure in my post because some people on here seem to think that if you don't make at least that much you're impoverished and envious of them.

[Barb]

The income level required to maintain what constitutes a middle class lifestyle varies greatly depending on the region of the country you live in, as do the wages and cost of living.

You are exactly right. That is why we get raped in taxes. $200K a year where I live is middle class, but the federal tax rate doesn't give a damn where you live.

[ohsherrie]

The income level required to maintain what constitutes a middle class lifestyle varies greatly depending on the region of the country you live in, as do the wages and cost of living.

You are exactly right. That is why we get raped in taxes. $200K a year where I live is middle class, but the federal tax rate doesn't give a damn where you live.

You're right and that's in no way right or fair. My issue has never been with the taxes any working people pay. It's with the taxes that the people whose earnings aren't taxed because they come primarily from capitol gains and dividends. It was people who make $100,000 plus and think I'm just moaning about job losses because I don't and therefore must be on welfare who distracted from the real issue.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

The income level required to maintain what constitutes a middle class lifestyle varies greatly depending on the region of the country you live in, as do the wages and cost of living.

You are exactly right. That is why we get raped in taxes. $200K a year where I live is middle class, but the federal tax rate doesn't give a damn where you live.

You're right and that's in no way right or fair. My issue has never been with the taxes any working people pay. It's with the taxes that the people whose earnings aren't taxed because they come primarily from capitol gains and dividends. It was people who make $100,000 plus and think I'm just moaning about job losses because I don't and therefore must be on welfare who distracted from the real issue.

Capital gains are taxed. Capital gains taxes are the number one headache for family run and small business owners (middle class people). So are dividends- and a ton of middle class people invest in stocks to fund a 401k , save for their kids college, etc.

Raise taxes on capital/dividends gains taxes you scrwe small businesses, putting working class people out of work. No worse tax ever.

[conversationpc]

In the rural areas and small communities of the southeast and midwest a family of four can live a very comfortable middle class lifestyle on $60,000 - $75,000 a year.

I live in the midwest AND am part of a middle class family. At least here in Indiana, a family making $60,000 - $75,000 a year would have to have rather low housing costs, utilities, and very low debt to live comfortably. Most families in that income range can't say that. My wife and I make slightly more than the $75,000/year but we also live in the Indianapolis metro area.

[conversationpc]

Capital gains are taxed. Capital gains taxes are the number one headache for family run and small business owners (middle class people). So are dividends- and a ton of middle class people invest in stocks to fund a 401k , save for their kids college, etc.

Raise taxes on capital/dividends gains taxes you scrwe small businesses, putting working class people out of work. No worse tax ever.

Correct. Corporate taxes are probably the 2nd worst.

Say a regular Joe makes that magical $100,000 in imcome and can invest $10,000 of that. IF that $10,000 grows by 10% the first year (ie..$1000), the Joe will pay roughy around $300 on average on April 15. Now here is the worst part, and we're seeing it now, again trust me, that $10,000 could lose value and be worth say $9000 presently and guess what. Joe will still pay his $300 to the IRS. Why, because he still recieved his cap gains in value, yet the share price has dropped. Either way, the IRS says you made money.

Capital gains taxes and even higher taxes on oil companies would hurt a lot of your average American citizens who have a 401k plan or some other kind of investment or retirement plan that depends on stocks. Many teachers, policemen, firemen, etc., have a good percentage of their money tied up in this stuff.

[ohsherrie]

Sherrie, please read up on this.

I have. Where do you think my opinion comes from, thin air? Well of course you do. I live in Virginia and have never made $100,000 in my life so what do I know, right?

I'll check further though and post my findings.

[Saint John]

Here's my approach and it's rather simple. Work hard, save harder and prepare for emergencies. This is still by far the easiest country in the world to live well. It's really not hard. How downright embarrassing it is that some choose to select excuses, presidential shortcomings and lame data figures to account for their shortcomings. If people spent even a fraction of the time they do bitching, moaning and complaining on better preparing themsleves and their future they'd be much better off. But that's hard...that takes effort. Sitting behind a keyboard doesn't. Elect Obama, McCain or Clinton...makes no difference to me. I'll adapt, improvise and overcome. We live in a country where $100 shoes, $60 jeans, new cars, cell phones, the latest gadgets, and other stuff simply can't be lives without. We've forgotten what sacrifice, savings and hard work is all about. The average American is in debt....a LOT of it. That's no one's fault but their OWN, and until that stops I guess I'll continue to have to deal with whining sob stories...and that's ok. I actually get a kick out of it!!!

[Monker]

This type of information is much more relevant.


http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-04tax-sum.htm

Better yet.

http://jec.senate.gov/Documents/Reports ... ug2004.pdf

And more.


http://www.cbpp.org/8-25-04tax.htm

You REALLY just don't get it do you?? The richest one percent got back $40k because they pay ASTRONOMICAL amounts of money to taxes. You always point how how $1000 to a poor family mean so much more than the $1000 to a rich person. It works the same way in reverse. A person only paying $2000 in taxes per year getting back $250 is a net 12.5% DECREASE in taxes. While the person paying $1 million getting back $40k is only getting a 4% reduction.

The math is simple.

Again you are getting the whole class envy thing going. Leave the envy behind and look at the actual economics of it.

It is also common sense that it is absolute STUPIDITY to go to war, cut taxes, and provide early refunds...all basicaly at the same time. NONE of the above should have happened.

I argued with you and others back then. Oh,the 'war' will only last weeks, or months. Oh, Iraqi oil will pay for it. 'Occupation?' You don't know what you are talking about.

You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

Reagan cut taxes the way they needed to be. Even he said we need to go thru some rough times.

Clinton brught some stability. That is what was needed in the 90's.

What was needed under Bush was to invest in this country and its people. Instead we invest in Iraq and their people...under the failed policies of the worst President we are likely to see in our lifetime.

Providing further tax cuts and early rebates is not a long term solution. Huckabee has this one. Put people to work...rebuild highways, invest in the infrastructure in that way. Order more tanks, planes, ships...give factory workers jobs. Offer government contract for alternative fuel vehicles...jump start the move away from its oil addiction. These are the things that should have been done after 9/11. Instead, we spent billions of dollars in a never ending war in Iraq.

[Monker]

The income level required to maintain what constitutes a middle class lifestyle varies greatly depending on the region of the country you live in, as do the wages and cost of living.

You are exactly right. That is why we get raped in taxes. $200K a year where I live is middle class, but the federal tax rate doesn't give a damn where you live.

You're right and that's in no way right or fair. My issue has never been with the taxes any working people pay. It's with the taxes that the people whose earnings aren't taxed because they come primarily from capitol gains and dividends. It was people who make $100,000 plus and think I'm just moaning about job losses because I don't and therefore must be on welfare who distracted from the real issue.

Capital gains are taxed. Capital gains taxes are the number one headache for family run and small business owners (middle class people). So are dividends- and a ton of middle class people invest in stocks to fund a 401k , save for their kids college, etc.

Raise taxes on capital/dividends gains taxes you scrwe small businesses, putting working class people out of work. No worse tax ever.

You're right. Capital gains should be eliminated. It should be taxed the same as earnings on a savings account.

If I made a million dollars/year, I would be foolish to put in a savings account and pay %60 tax on earnings. I would invest it and withdraw it under long term capital gains of %15. That is definitly one way the rich use the system to pay a lower % then middle income tax payers...because they do not have the income to take advantage of the loophole.

[ohsherrie]

You're right. Capital gains should be eliminated. It should be taxed the same as earnings on a savings account.

If I made a million dollars/year, I would be foolish to put in a savings account and pay %60 tax on earnings. I would invest it and withdraw it under long term capital gains of %15. That is definitly one way the rich use the system to pay a lower % then middle income tax payers...because they do not have the income to take advantage of the loophole.

Thank goodness for a voice of reason.

Capitol gains tax cuts:

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/cg0406.pdf

http://www.cbpp.org/1-30-06tax2.htm

[conversationpc]

You're right. Capital gains should be eliminated. It should be taxed the same as earnings on a savings account.

If I made a million dollars/year, I would be foolish to put in a savings account and pay %60 tax on earnings. I would invest it and withdraw it under long term capital gains of %15. That is definitly one way the rich use the system to pay a lower % then middle income tax payers...because they do not have the income to take advantage of the loophole.

Thank goodness for a voice of reason.

Capitol gains tax cuts:

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/cg0406.pdf

http://www.cbpp.org/1-30-06tax2.htm

Since "cutting & pasting" seems to be allowable today by the libs on the board...

The final measure compares the inequality of income to the inequality of taxes paid over time among all income groups. This measure is the "progressivity index," and is a numerical representation between 0 and 1. The closer the index value is to 1, the more progressive the tax system. For example:

* From 1990 to 2000, the progressivity index increased from 0.476 to 0.617, during a period where marginal tax rates increased but capital gains tax rates fell.
* From 2001 to 2004, under George W. Bush's tax reforms, the tax progressivity index continued to rise from 0.608 to 0.664.

"Its important when discussing tax reforms to consider how the system reacts, because of the great discretion high earners have in how they earn income and therefore pay taxes," said Stroup. "Bush's reforms have helped diminish the income gap between rich and poor, rather than make it worse."

http://www.ncpa.org/prs/rel/2008/20080121.html

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

The tax on capital gains directly affects investment decisions, the mobility and flow of risk capital . . . the ease or difficulty experienced by new ventures in obtaining capital, and thereby the strength and potential for growth in the economy.

-- President John F. Kennedy, 1963

"I have long considered tax cuts for middle-income Americans and small businesses a top priority
This year, I once again proposed my Middle Class Bill of Rights. On May 2, 1997, the congressional leadership and I reached a historic bipartisan budget agreement that included the broad outlines of key elements of my tax-cut plan. Earlier this year, my Administration announced its support for expansion of the home office deduction and the small business capital gains incentive. I am pleased that H.R. 2014 includes my proposal to exempt up to $500,000 in capital gains on the sale of a home from all capital gains taxes. This encompasses over 99 percent of homes sold in the U.S. and will dramatically simplify taxes and record keeping for over 60 million homeowners"

- President Bill Clinton announcing his capital gains tax cut in 1997 (which would be rolled back under Obama's proposed economic plan)


Oh Those evil dirty conservative, Repbulican fuckers going and arguing for higher capital gains taxes.

[ohsherrie]

In the rural areas and small communities of the southeast and midwest a family of four can live a very comfortable middle class lifestyle on $60,000 - $75,000 a year.

I live in the midwest AND am part of a middle class family. At least here in Indiana, a family making $60,000 - $75,000 a year would have to have rather low housing costs, utilities, and very low debt to live comfortably. Most families in that income range can't say that. My wife and I make slightly more than the $75,000/year but we also live in the Indianapolis metro area.

There are thousands of miles of the southeast and midwest that aren't in any "metro area". They may be near enough to one the size of Indianapolis, Omaha, Kansas City, etc, to be within commuting distance and still avoid the "metro cost of living" but if it's a major metro area like Chicago, NYC, Houston, LA, Atlanta, etc, the urban sprawl and suburbs have spread out into the surrounding bedroom communities and sucked them into that "metro cost of living" so that there really isn't a commuting distance that is out of it.

That's even started happening with Omaha no bigger than it is, and do you know why? It's because so many of the manufacturing jobs and smaller industries in so many of the surrounding smaller communities have been shut down and people are having to move closer to Omaha to find work. The bedroom communities grow and are sucked into the urban sprawl and their taxes, utilities, etc, to up to metro rates.

What makes it especially hard on those families is that what the 2500 sq ft home they sold in their previous community brought(if they were lucky enough to avoid foreclosure) will barely buy 1500 sq ft where they're having move to be able to be within commuting distance of a job. Add to that the current cost of gas and that the only jobs they can find in Omaha starts them out at quite a bit less than they were making 70 mi away in Bumfuck and quite likely doesn't provide healthcare benefits and these people are hurting. They're not going to be putting much back into the economy for quite some time. If they couldn't find jobs fast enough to avoid home foreclosure and/or repo of their vehicles it's even bleaker than that.

That's what I'm talking about here. It's the economy. It's not whining about the misfortune of the individuals involved, although I would think somebody would have a little compassion about that. It's the REAL economy of this country.

If anybody has taken time to read some of the material that I've provided(rather than making fun of the appearance and occupations of some of the gatherers of it) you might have seen that this wonderful growing economy that the Bushies have been touting hasn't really existed.

While the National Debt has been growing so has the debt of most of nation's middle class. All of that money they've been pumping into the economy has been borrowed in the form of mortgages, car loans, and credit card debt. Now it's all falling down around their ears because the jobs that were paying those bills are gone. And anyone who thinks most of those mortgages, car loans and credit cards debts were incurred by people living beyond their means out of "class envy" is just purely ignorant as well as callous. Some of it was that, sure, but not MOST of it.

But we shouldn't worry about the effects we're witnessing right now of those smoke and mirrors Bushonomics right? We should just worry about the possibility of needing higher taxes to try and dig this country out of this disaster.

Of course we shouldn't stop the war and the accompanying Defense Budget gouging or stop the corporate welfare to the companies going overseas, or the tax cuts to those same companies to keep from having to increase taxes on the working people dramatically. We should just "Let Them Eat Cake" and let all those "Upper Class" people keep their heads in the sand until their jobs are shipped to India (Did you bother to read about that or just make fun of the guys who gathered the information?) and then I'll bet they'll be changing their tunes.

Of course if Hillary or Obama gets in there and can possibly manage to start to pull us out of this so that they don't lose their jobs they'll still give the credit to "trickle down Bushonomics".

[conversationpc]

There are thousands of miles of the southeast and midwest that aren't in any "metro area". They may be near enough to one the size of Indianapolis, Omaha, Kansas City, etc, to be within commuting distance and still avoid the "metro cost of living" but if it's a major metro area like Chicago, NYC, Houston, LA, Atlanta, etc, the urban sprawl and suburbs have spread out into the surrounding bedroom communities and sucked them into that "metro cost of living" so that there really isn't a commuting distance that is out of it.

Indianapolis may not be the size of Chicago, New York City, or Houston, it still is the 12th largest city in the country. Most of the surrounding communities, especially on the north side of town, which is where I live, have a much higher standard of living than areas closer to the east side or south side (not so much the west side of town). Commuting sucks and I have to drive about an average of 40 minutes each way (sometimes much longer during the evening commute). That being said, though the cost of living is higher than I'd like, we've adjusted by not owning a house larger than we can afford and by not using credit cards. Most people are pressured into bigger homes than they should have or even need, for that matter, and too many people use their credit cards frivolously.

While the National Debt has been growing so has the debt of most of nation's middle class. All of that money they've been pumping into the economy has been borrowed in the form of mortgages, car loans, and credit card debt. Now it's all falling down around their ears because the jobs that were paying those bills are gone. And anyone who thinks most of those mortgages, car loans and credit cards debts were incurred by people living beyond their means out of "class envy" is just purely ignorant as well as callous. Some of it was that, sure, but not MOST of it.

Bullcrap. Most credit card debt is from frivolous spending. My wife and I are in that situation and most of the people we know who are in the same situation are there because they spent too much and lived above their means. MOST debt is debt that was unnecessary in the first place.

Of course if Hillary or Obama gets in there and can possibly manage to start to pull us out of this so that they don't lose their jobs they'll still give the credit to "trickle down Bushonomics".

Neither one of them are going to get us out of anything. People need to rely on themselves, first and foremost, because government is not going to do it for them, nor should they in most cases.

[Barb]

Neither one of them are going to get us out of anything. People need to rely on themselves, first and foremost, because government is not going to do it for them, nor should they in most cases.

If there were no such thing as government handouts, people would have NO CHOICE but to do it themselves and THEY WOULD. The amount of people who truly need a hand up is significantly less than those who are asking for one -- or in some cases, DEMANDING one.

[conversationpc]

Neither one of them are going to get us out of anything. People need to rely on themselves, first and foremost, because government is not going to do it for them, nor should they in most cases.

If there were no such thing as government handouts, people would have NO CHOICE but to do it themselves and THEY WOULD. The amount of people who truly need a hand up is significantly less than those who are asking for one -- or in some cases, DEMANDING one.

Agreed.

BTW, great sig there...

[ohsherrie]

That being said, though the cost of living is higher than I'd like, we've adjusted by not owning a house larger than we can afford and by not using credit cards. Most people are pressured into bigger homes than they should have or even need, for that matter, and too many people use their credit cards frivolously...................................

.....................Bullcrap. Most credit card debt is from frivolous spending. My wife and I are in that situation and most of the people we know who are in the same situation are there because they spent too much and lived above their means. MOST debt is debt that was unnecessary in the first place.

Sounds like you live very much the same way I've lived my entire life. Maybe that's where part of the problem is in the discussion about what constitutes "middle class". I don't think you necessarily have to have enough disposable income to be a conspicuous consumer to be middle class. We've lived what I consider a good, comfortable life that we're very content with. Would I have liked to have had more disposable income and a few more luxuries? Hell yeah, who wouldn't? But I would never have overextended on credit to have them. I use a credit card as a money management tool because the one I use pays cash rewards. By automatically having my utility bills, Dish Network, car and house insurance premiums, etc charged to it and never carrying a balance they're paying me.

In fact I think the kind of "class envy" wannbe-ism that you're talking about is partially responsible for the decline in the real middle class, but not the biggest contributor. It is the biggest factor in the mortgage crisis that's going on right now and it's also what help disguise the failing economy for so long.

But for MOST of the people that I know of that are losing their $60 - $75 thousand a year jobs in the rural areas and small communities in the south and midwest conspicuous overextending is not the biggest factor. You see that phenomenon much more in urban and suburban areas.

Most people have to incur a certain level of debt and it's not always within their control. I had to buy a car on a credit card once. Well, I didn't have to, but I needed to buy the car that day, I didn't want to take on a car loan and needed time to do do some money moving, so I put it on the card and by the time the bill was due I had made the necessary arrangements to be able to pay it off. No debt incurred and a good shot of cash rewards, but if I hadn't had that card I'd have had to take on a car loan. If a family that's lost their health care benefits and can't afford to get it privately has an illness requiring hospitalization that's a debt they couldn't avoid. Shit happens, and people aren't always able to be financially prepared for it.

People need to rely on themselves, first and foremost, because government is not going to do it for them, nor should they in most cases.

I'm quite certain that most people would love to be able to take care of themselves and in an ideal world maybe that could be required. But as things stand right now it's not realistic unless you want to see thousands of thousands of citizens of this country living under bridges dying of malnutrition and spreading disease from lack of health care through absolutely no fault of their own. First the government needs to take responsibility for the damage that they've done, correct it, get out of the lobbyist's pockets, get us out of the steel jawed trap of oil dependency, and once the playing field of opportunity is leveled, get the hell out of the economy manipulation to profit special interests business.

You know, as a matter of fact, this subprime mortgage scam and Bush's bailout plan remind me quite a lot of the Savings and Loan bailout that he, his family and some others who are in his administration today were so heavily involved in.

http://members.tripod.com/rationalrevol ... _the_s.htm

[ohsherrie]

Some non partisan opinions would help sherrie. {/quote]

Why, did they change the numbers or something?

Analysis of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities' Criticism of Tax Freedom Day and State-Local Tax Burdens

by TF Staff


Fiscal Fact No. 53

Executive Summary

Each year, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) releases a criticism of the Tax Foundation’s annual calculation of Tax Freedom Day. Their criticism relies on three main arguments, none of which stand up to close scrutiny.

First, they assert that Tax Freedom Day should focus only on tax burdens of the middle one-fifth of earners, and ignore the taxes paid by the remaining four-fifths of Americans. Second, they assert that the Tax Foundation should employ the CBPP’s unofficial preferred definitions of “income” and “tax” rather than the official definitions used by U.S. government statistical agencies. Finally, they assert that the Tax Foundation’s state and local tax burden estimates are unreliable because—like all statistical estimates based on official government data—initial estimates are revised when improved data become available.

All three criticisms rely on either factual errors, unsupportable value judgments or misleading interpretations of the Tax Foundation’s tax burden estimates. For these reasons, the CBPP’s criticisms do not constitute a serious critique of the Tax Foundation’s established methodology for estimating the nation’s average annual tax burden.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/1406.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/about/

And that's your idea of non-partisan?

You're still missing my point though, as is everyone else who doesn't care about anything but how much taxes they pay.

I'm frankly not all that worried about how much tax you, Barb or the "upper class" dude pay. I don't want to see any of you taxed unfairly, but that's really low on my list of political priorities compared to the economic disaster the entire country is facing. Good luck with your problem though.

My argument is not as much about how much revenue is coming in and who's providing it, it's about the misuse of it during the last 8 years. If it takes higher taxes to straighten out the economic mess this country is in it won't be because of the Democratic Administration that will be in power at the time, it will be because of the disastrous mess the current regime has made by starting an unnecessary war and then using it and the distraction that it caused to manipulate the ecomony for the benefit of their special interests. His "tax cuts" for the working people who actually got them were a very small part of what caused the problem.

[ohsherrie]

Capital gains taxes and even higher taxes on oil companies would hurt a lot of your average American citizens who have a 401k plan or some other kind of investment or retirement plan that depends on stocks. Many teachers, policemen, firemen, etc., have a good percentage of their money tied up in this stuff.

No more than, and probably not as much as, all those among the 3.2 million who have lost their jobs that lost their retirement funds and had to cash out their 401Ks to live on so all those CEOs could get their tax cuts and huge bonuses for moving their jobs overseas.

[conversationpc]

In fact I think the kind of "class envy" wannbe-ism that you're talking about is partially responsible for the decline in the real middle class, but not the biggest contributor. It is the biggest factor in the mortgage crisis that's going on right now and it's also what help disguise the failing economy for so long.

I haven't mentioned class/wealth envy. Living beyond one's means doesn't mean you have class envy.

But for MOST of the people that I know of that are losing their $60 - $75 thousand a year jobs in the rural areas and small communities in the south and midwest conspicuous overextending is not the biggest factor. You see that phenomenon much more in urban and suburban areas.

Wrong again, in my opinion. Before I moved here, I lived in a rural area in north central Pennsylvania. The closest decent-sized cities are Buffalo and Erie, both about 2 & 1/2 hours away. People there lived beyond their means just as much as people here do. It's a country-wide phenomenon, if you want to call it that. I lived there for nearly 27 years and, though the homes and automobiles might not be quite as nice, I'd be willing to be that the level of overspending is probably not much different than it is here.

I'm quite certain that most people would love to be able to take care of themselves and in an ideal world maybe that could be required. But as things stand right now it's not realistic unless you want to see thousands of thousands of citizens of this country living under bridges dying of malnutrition and spreading disease from lack of health care through absolutely no fault of their own. First the government needs to take responsibility for the damage that they've done, correct it, get out of the lobbyist's pockets, get us out of the steel jawed trap of oil dependency, and once the playing field of opportunity is leveled, get the hell out of the economy manipulation to profit special interests business.

People CAN take care of themselves...The crises you mention above are few and far between when compared with the situations that most people put themselves in.

[ohsherrie]

I haven't mentioned class/wealth envy. Living beyond one's means doesn't mean you have class envy.

No you didn't introduce the term class envy. That's something I was accused of and I'm still so appalled that anyone could be that egotistical and self-centered that it creeps into my posts now and then.

When you buy an upscale house you can't afford because you want to live in an upscale neighborhood with people who can afford them, buy a trendy vehicle you can't afford because you don't want people to think you can't afford one, buy a big screen TV for your new upscale neighbors to watch football with you on, to my way of thinking you do it out of class envy.

Wrong again, in my opinion. Before I moved here, I lived in a rural area in north central Pennsylvania. The closest decent-sized cities are Buffalo and Erie, both about 2 & 1/2 hours away. People there lived beyond their means just as much as people here do. It's a country-wide phenomenon, if you want to call it that. I lived there for nearly 27 years and, though the homes and automobiles might not be quite as nice, I'd be willing to be that the level of overspending is probably not much different than it is here.

It may be wrong where you came from, but in the rural and small communities here and in southwestern IA that I'm very familiar with you don't see that much of it. It may be a countrywide phenomenon, but it isn't the problem that everyone who's in financial crisis across the country is guilty of. Maybe you just associate more with the kind of people who are prone that that frivolity and extravagance than I do.

It's the kind of narrow-minded catagorization that I'm reading into your, and some other peoples' posts that our government is most guilty of.

People CAN take care of themselves...

I'm sure most of them can manage to exist. They'll get whatever they deserve, right? Afterall, they had no right to expect their government to give their financial futures the same consideration they were giving the CEOs of those companies and their special interest lobbyists when they paid them to move the companies overseas. I mean, they weren't paying enough taxes on that $60 - $75 thou a year anyway. They were just poor working slugs that were probably living beyond their means anyway.

The crises you mention above are few and far between when compared with the situations that most people put themselves in.

OMG, you're so wrong. I'm actually a little bit stunned that you really believe that. So very wrong, but there's nothing I can do to convince you of that. Just go on living in your comfortable little "bubble of delusion" and good luck with that, seriously.

[conversationpc]

The crises you mention above are few and far between when compared with the situations that most people put themselves in.

OMG, you're so wrong. I'm actually a little bit stunned that you really believe that. So very wrong, but there's nothing I can do to convince you of that. Just go on living in your comfortable little "bubble of delusion" and good luck with that, seriously.

Ohsherrie...

Screw it. I can't post what I'd like to. I actually like some of the other liberals on this board...TNC, Deano, 7 Wishes, etc., all seem to be level-headed but you are one huge piece of work. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, misled, deluded, a wife beater, etc., etc.

[Rockindeano]

The crises you mention above are few and far between when compared with the situations that most people put themselves in.

OMG, you're so wrong. I'm actually a little bit stunned that you really believe that. So very wrong, but there's nothing I can do to convince you of that. Just go on living in your comfortable little "bubble of delusion" and good luck with that, seriously.

Ohsherrie...

Screw it. I can't post what I'd like to. I actually like some of the other liberals on this board...TNC, Deano, 7 Wishes, etc., all seem to be level-headed but you are one huge piece of work. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, misled, deluded, a wife beater, etc., etc.

Thanks, I guess David.

Post what you want. I love brutal honesty.

By the way, I am a moderate, not liberal. I have some liberal views and some conservative views too.

[RossValoryRocks]

Thanks, I guess David.

Post what you want. I love brutal honesty.

By the way, I am a moderate, not liberal. I have some liberal views and some conservative views too.

He is actually not kidding...while standing in line for roller coasters Dean and I hashed around a lot of politics...Dean is actually do the conservative side on most issues...except tax, some economic and most foreign policies.

[RedWingFan]

Thanks, I guess David.

Post what you want. I love brutal honesty.

By the way, I am a moderate, not liberal. I have some liberal views and some conservative views too.

He is actually not kidding...while standing in line for roller coasters Dean and I hashed around a lot of politics...Dean is actually do the conservative side on most issues...except tax, some economic and most foreign policies.

I'd really like to be enlightened about what conservative issues he shares. I'm sick of only agreeing with Dean that hockey is great.

[conversationpc]

Thanks, I guess David.

Post what you want. I love brutal honesty.

By the way, I am a moderate, not liberal. I have some liberal views and some conservative views too.

He is actually not kidding...while standing in line for roller coasters Dean and I hashed around a lot of politics...Dean is actually do the conservative side on most issues...except tax, some economic and most foreign policies.

I'd really like to be enlightened about what conservative issues he shares. I'm sick of only agreeing with Dean that hockey is great.

Yeah. Come on, Deano, enlighten us, please.