Wildest Dreams and Never Walk Away

[Matthew]

If I want to hear BGTY, I'll go listen to the original. I want NEW Journey material on par with what they're capable of. That's my standard and I see no reason to accept less from such a talented group of musicians.

Yes, that new song is a bit like BGTY. But all of Journey's material since TBF has more or less sounded like the formula Journey established a long time ago.
The fact is...nothing the band does now can ever reach the heights they used to achieve. To expect them to be still capable of this is ridiculous.
And even if they wrote their greatest ever song tomorrow...the vocals would be sub-standard compared to the past, wouldn't they?

Yes, all of Journey's material since TBF has been very formulaic. State of Grace, Walking Away from The edge, Live and Breathe, Livin' To Do, Kiss Me Softly, Beyond the Clouds, Faith in the Heartland, Out of Harms Way.... what a bunch of status quo drivel.

Well, Faith In The Heartland borrowed U2's formula but the rest of these songs were recognisably in a Journey style. They certainly weren't breaking new ground for either the band or for the AOR genre. And if you think any of those songs are the equal of those on Escape then you must be stoned or something, Progrocker.

[STORY_TELLER]

If I want to hear BGTY, I'll go listen to the original. I want NEW Journey material on par with what they're capable of. That's my standard and I see no reason to accept less from such a talented group of musicians.

But Storyteller...Journey have been sub-standard for 22 years...and some might argue that they've been falling short since Frontiers. And yet here you are...a quarter of a century later...still talking about the band most days of the week...still saying that you are not accepting in drop in standards. Time to let it go perhaps?

Yes, that new song is a bit like BGTY. But all of Journey's material since TBF has more or less sounded like the formula Journey established a long time ago. And isn't it true that if Journey sounded radically different people - including maybe you too - would be complaining that they 'didn't sound like Journey enough'.

The fact is...nothing the band does now can ever reach the heights they used to achieve. To expect them to be still capable of this is ridiculous.
And even if they wrote their greatest ever song tomorrow...the vocals would be sub-standard compared to the past, wouldn't they?

Sorry Matthew, (and this is to everyone else who is thinking likewise as well):

You're equating and confusing two separate issues.

There's a vast difference between retaining their overall signature sound and virtually recreating a song they already made. I never said I wanted the band to "break new ground".

Remember Me has the Journey sound but isn't a recreation. It's an original song. BGTY and this new song are so close they're interchangeable. Go to the first page and follow the download link of the comparison I made. I slipped sections of each song within one another and with the exception of the audio quality and subtle differences here and there, they blend all too perfectly. Hell even the tempo of the song is the same. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I expect new material to be ORIGINAL. That doesn't mean abandoning a formula and/or style of song and melody which defines the overall sound of the band, but it does mean avoiding blatant recreation of a specific song in their catalogue, which this is.

If you can't hear how close these songs are, well, then I have to believe you've made up your mind before hand and nothing short of an admission by Neal himself would get you to believe otherwise.

As for being substandard for 22 years:
I'll take a Trial by Fire or Raised on Radio quality album (of ORIGINAL SONGS) with Arnel on vox over an Arrival album any day of the week. I am very sure they are capable of this. All it takes is the effort and a third writing partner. Neal and Jon need to loosen the creative reigns a bit and allow a fresh eye into the mix.

As always, all of the above is said without malice so please don't jump down my throat for posting an objective, AND FAIR MINDED, point of view.

[Matthew]

If I want to hear BGTY, I'll go listen to the original. I want NEW Journey material on par with what they're capable of. That's my standard and I see no reason to accept less from such a talented group of musicians.

But Storyteller...Journey have been sub-standard for 22 years...and some might argue that they've been falling short since Frontiers. And yet here you are...a quarter of a century later...still talking about the band most days of the week...still saying that you are not accepting in drop in standards. Time to let it go perhaps?

Yes, that new song is a bit like BGTY. But all of Journey's material since TBF has more or less sounded like the formula Journey established a long time ago. And isn't it true that if Journey sounded radically different people - including maybe you too - would be complaining that they 'didn't sound like Journey enough'.

The fact is...nothing the band does now can ever reach the heights they used to achieve. To expect them to be still capable of this is ridiculous.
And even if they wrote their greatest ever song tomorrow...the vocals would be sub-standard compared to the past, wouldn't they?

Sorry Matthew, (and this is to everyone else who is thinking likewise as well):

You're equating and confusing two separate issues.

There's a vast difference between retaining their overall signature sound and virtually recreating a song they already made. I never said I wanted the band to "break new ground".

Remember Me has the Journey sound but isn't a recreation. It's an original song. BGTY and this new song are so close they're interchangeable. Go to the first page and follow the download link of the comparison I made. I slipped sections of each song within one another and with the exception of the audio quality and subtle differences here and there, they blend all too perfectly. Hell even the tempo of the song is the same. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I expect new material to be ORIGINAL. That doesn't mean abandoning a formula and/or style of song and melody which defines the overall sound of the band, but it does mean avoiding blatant recreation of a specific song in their catalogue, which this is.

If you can't hear how close these songs are, well, then I have to believe you've made up your mind before hand and nothing short of an admission by Neal himself would get you to believe otherwise.

As for being substandard for 22 years:
I'll take a Trial by Fire or Raised on Radio quality album (of ORIGINAL SONGS) with Arnel on vox over an Arrival album any day of the week. I am very sure they are capable of this. All it takes is the effort and a third writing partner. Neal and Jon need to loosen the creative reigns a bit and allow a fresh eye into the mix.

As always, all of the above is said without malice so please don't jump down my throat for posting an objective, AND FAIR MINDED, point of view.

Storyteller - yes, I take your point - it's all a question of degree isn't it? And the more I listen to it the more it does sound directly 'influenced' by BGTY. But don't you think it is also uncannily close to Believe In Me by JSS?

I guess what I was trying to say is that this type of music is so well-trodden now that there's often a specific song from the past which comes to mind when a new AOR tune is released. I'm not sure it's possible to be orginal anymore.

As for the standards...I'd love them to record an album which was as strong as ROR and TBF too and that they could turn back the clock and makes us feel that Arrival never happened. And I agree that after a decade of mediocrity a new talent/perspective needs to join a song-writing trio with Cain and Schon. Where we differ is that I have no expectation that they will achieve or do this.

I think we'll get an okayish album with a few highlights. Possibly better than Arrival and Generations. And they'll put on some great nostalgia shows which will have the whiff of American Idol at times. And that's about it. This will be entertaining enough for me to shell out good money to buy the record and the concert ticket.

But if I want true greatness then the Perry era albums and DVDs are always on hand....

[journeyMusic]

You should only have to wait one minute or two between them since the files are so small.

I couldn't get it either.

[conversationpc]

Yes, all of Journey's material since TBF has been very formulaic. State of Grace, Walking Away from The edge, Live and Breathe, Livin' To Do, Kiss Me Softly, Beyond the Clouds, Faith in the Heartland, Out of Harms Way.... what a bunch of status quo drivel.

Well, Faith In The Heartland borrowed U2's formula but the rest of these songs were recognisably in a Journey style. They certainly weren't breaking new ground for either the band or for the AOR genre. And if you think any of those songs are the equal of those on Escape then you must be stoned or something, Progrocker.

I don't hear anything reminiscent of U2 in "Faith in the Heartland". As for the other songs, "Livin' to Do" sounds nothing like Journey's ever done before or since. Neither does "Kiss Me Softly" or "Live and Breathe".

[Matthew]

Yes, all of Journey's material since TBF has been very formulaic. State of Grace, Walking Away from The edge, Live and Breathe, Livin' To Do, Kiss Me Softly, Beyond the Clouds, Faith in the Heartland, Out of Harms Way.... what a bunch of status quo drivel.

Well, Faith In The Heartland borrowed U2's formula but the rest of these songs were recognisably in a Journey style. They certainly weren't breaking new ground for either the band or for the AOR genre. And if you think any of those songs are the equal of those on Escape then you must be stoned or something, Progrocker.

I don't hear anything reminiscent of U2 in "Faith in the Heartland". As for the other songs, "Livin' to Do" sounds nothing like Journey's ever done before or since. Neither does "Kiss Me Softly" or "Live and Breathe".

Really Dave? You can't hear Pride (In The Name of Love) in FITH?

As for Livin' To Do etc...well, they might not sound exactly like typical Journey of old but they are certainly generic and dated AOR tracks...to my ears anyway. Nothing which breaks the mould here. If anything these songs demonstrate the transition the band made from being leaders and innovators of the scene to just being one of the crowd.

[conversationpc]

Really Dave? You can't hear Pride (In The Name of Love) in FITH?

Very little but not enough to say that they "borrowed from U2's formula".

As for Livin' To Do etc...well, they might not sound exactly like typical Journey of old but they are certainly generic and dated AOR tracks...to my ears anyway. Nothing which breaks the mould here. If anything these songs demonstrate the transition the band made from being leaders and innovators of the scene to just being one of the crowd.

"Livin' to Do" totally breaks the mold. It's one of the best tunes they've ever done, both musically and lyrically-speaking.

[simoncook1969]

I can hear a bit of BGTY and defintiely Never Too Late but, I still think it is a great song. I also happen to think that the two songs that the comparisons are being made with are likely the best songs off their resepective albums even though the latter was only a bonus track as I recall.

I am optimistic about hearing the new album after listening to these tracks; it could be the best one for some time.

[stevew2]

Let me ask you a question now. If another band which you weren't such a huge fan of did the same thing, would you be giving them as much a pass or would you call them on it?

Tough for me to answer that considering I don't think the songs are as similar as everyone else does.

Well... (and again, with a smile on my face), my point is I think the reason you feel that way is because you lack objectivity on this subject. That's why I posed the other band scenario, etc. etc.

Man you better jump on the band wagon with everyone else,Frigas waitin for ya

[STORY_TELLER]

Storyteller - yes, I take your point - it's all a question of degree isn't it? And the more I listen to it the more it does sound directly 'influenced' by BGTY. But don't you think it is also uncannily close to Believe In Me by JSS?

If you download the comparison file I posted earlier in this thread you'll see to what degree we're talking about here. A huge line has been crossed in this case. Believe in Me doesn't rise anywhere near this level of plagiarism. As to the uncanniness, It's pretty obvious Neal REALLY likes BGTY. Seems to keep going back to that formula across several songs. But as I said, he crossed a line on this one. Listen to the comparison and you will see just how much so, even from the bad audio youtube clip.

I guess what I was trying to say is that this type of music is so well-trodden now that there's often a specific song from the past which comes to mind when a new AOR tune is released. I'm not sure it's possible to be orginal anymore.

Sure it is. All it takes is effort and desire. See the problem is you're defining original as something so far removed from previous works as to be changing the signature style of the band's sound, whereas I don't. Take Escape and Frontiers for example. Both albums retain the Journey sound, yes? I don't hear a single song on Frontiers that would remind me of "Don't stop believing", let alone be mistaken for the same song, do you? That's what we're talking about here. Same can be said across almost all of the Perry era albums (with the exception of Message of Love to Separate Ways. Not a recreation like the one I'm complaining about, but certainly inspiration was derived there.) This new song is so close it can be mistaken for BGTY. You can literally slip the lyrics from BGTY into the new song and virtually have the same song. Sorry, that's not inspiration. That's ripping off your fans.

If I had to guess, based on this song, I'd say Neal's desire to please his fans are giving him a corporate approach to songwriting. "What did the fans like before? Okay, go make it again." What is this, hollywood? That's how bean counters at the hollywood studios make their creative decisions because they're marketing people, not creatives. Neal's an artist. He knows better.

As for the standards...I'd love them to record an album which was as strong as ROR and TBF too and that they could turn back the clock and makes us feel that Arrival never happened. And I agree that after a decade of mediocrity a new talent/perspective needs to join a song-writing trio with Cain and Schon. Where we differ is that I have no expectation that they will achieve or do this.

I think we'll get an okayish album with a few highlights. Possibly better than Arrival and Generations. And they'll put on some great nostalgia shows which will have the whiff of American Idol at times. And that's about it. This will be entertaining enough for me to shell out good money to buy the record and the concert ticket.

But if I want true greatness then the Perry era albums and DVDs are always on hand....

Okay, here I almost entirely agree with you, with the exception of purchasing the record. I'm still on the fence. I'm waiting for samplers of the studio tracks before I give another judgmental listen. It's the fair thing to do.

From hearing Arnel, however, I can say I'd take in a show. Purchasing their "new" material however, is another matter. But yes, shame on me for having the nerve to expect new material to truly be "new" and not an almost 100% recreation of something they already did.

[Matthew]

Very little but not enough to say that they "borrowed from U2's formula".

I'd say it was pretty blatant at the beginning - but overall you're probably right.

"Livin' to Do" totally breaks the mold. It's one of the best tunes they've ever done, both musically and lyrically-speaking.

To be honest I have absolutely no memory of this song at all. I last listened to Arrival about five years ago. But I guess I'd better give it another listen...if I can still find the CD that is....

[STORY_TELLER]

Very little but not enough to say that they "borrowed from U2's formula".

I'd say it was pretty blatant at the beginning - but overall you're probably right.

"Livin' to Do" totally breaks the mold. It's one of the best tunes they've ever done, both musically and lyrically-speaking.

To be honest I have absolutely no memory of this song at all. I last listened to Arrival about five years ago. But I guess I'd better give it another listen...if I can still find the CD that is....

Actually, at the beginning of FITH, I hear "The Who" and "U2". Keyboard is U2 and the guitar is The Who. Even still, that's a far cry different from recreating your own song.

[Matthew]

If you download the comparison file I posted earlier in this thread you'll see to what degree we're talking about here. A huge line has been crossed in this case. Believe in Me doesn't rise anywhere near this level of plagiarism.

Okay - I'll give it listen today.

Sure it is. All it takes is effort and desire. See the problem is you're defining original as something so far removed from previous works as to be changing the signature style of the band's sound, whereas I don't. Take Escape and Frontiers for example.

Yes - and I'd include ROR in that list too. But those records were made when the AOR genre was at its peak, when it was still breaking new ground. When Escape was released this type of music had only really been around for about five years (if you count the Boston album as the record which started AOR/FM sound/etc). So I agree that originality was still possible in those days.

But in 2008? I honestly think that this type of music ran out of steam in the late 1980s and although I can still enjoy new music now it rarely surprises me in the way it used to.

Also- even TBF was the kind of record which seemed to consolidate a known sound rather than take everyone off-guard like ROR did. And it is sad that Journey lost the desire to take chances...and indeed much of their soul and integrity too. But I guess I'm over that disappointment now.

Is it just effort and desire? Well, that's a big part of it - but age is another - and if you're working in a relative narrow field for thirty years it's hard to find new angles. That isn't an excuse for blatant rip-offs though, as you say...

[Matthew]

Very little but not enough to say that they "borrowed from U2's formula".

I'd say it was pretty blatant at the beginning - but overall you're probably right.

"Livin' to Do" totally breaks the mold. It's one of the best tunes they've ever done, both musically and lyrically-speaking.

To be honest I have absolutely no memory of this song at all. I last listened to Arrival about five years ago. But I guess I'd better give it another listen...if I can still find the CD that is....

Actually, at the beginning of FITH, I hear "The Who" and "U2". Keyboard is U2 and the guitar is The Who. Even still, that's a far cry different from recreating your own song.

Oh the guitar at the beginning is vintage mid-80s Edge all over. Was amazed to hear Neal play that....

[STORY_TELLER]

Yes - and I'd include ROR in that list too. But those records were made when the AOR genre was at its peak, when it was still breaking new ground. When Escape was released this type of music had only really been around for about five years (if you count the Boston album as the record which started AOR/FM sound/etc). So I agree that originality was still possible in those days.

But in 2008? I honestly think that this type of music ran out of steam in the late 1980s and although I can still enjoy new music now it rarely surprises me in the way it used to.

Also- even TBF was the kind of record which seemed to consolidate a known sound rather than take everyone off-guard like ROR did. And it is sad that Journey lost the desire to take chances...and indeed much of their soul and integrity too. But I guess I'm over that disappointment now.

Is it just effort and desire? Well, that's a big part of it - but age is another - and if you're working in a relative narrow field for thirty years it's hard to find new angles. That isn't an excuse for blatant rip-offs though, as you say...

I think you're relating to you yourself having grown beyond the music to a degree. But yes, I do believe age plays a huge part in this. Being creative is usually a young man's game. The fire to do so usually burns brightest in our 20's. Lessens in our 30's to 40's and can become a huge chore from 50 on, lol.... Some call it "burn out" in fact. At that point, it's very easy to rest on your laurels and that I think is a huge part of what's happened here. But you can't blame me for being disappointed and, even still, it's not excuse for a recreation. There's degrees of acceptability and this crossed a line.