OT: Evidence That A Family Can Be Too Close!

[Enigma869]

Two disabled children being born into this family. Gee...I wonder why! Dopes


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/ ... llegal.cnn


John from Boston

[epresley]

OH man, I saw this. Jeez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[conversationpc]

It totally grosses me out to even think of being with my sister like that. Excuse me while I have the heebee jeebies.

[jrnychick]

How incredibly sad for those kids. And what about the fact that he was 22 and she was 16 when they got together. I'm sorry, but my daughter isn't going anywhere near a 22-year-old man when she's 16! I can understand that they didn't have the typical sibling feelings for each other because they didn't grow up together, but didn't they consider the risks to any children they might have?

Some family friends of ours are married and they are first cousins. I guess it was a big problem in their family for a long time and certain relatives never got over it. Their parents eventually came around though. They had 2 perfectly healthy, normal kids and have been married for about 35-40 years.

[Lady Luck]

It totally grosses me out to even think of being with my sister like that. Excuse me while I have the heebee jeebies.

Same here with my brother...EWWWWWW

[Enigma869]

How incredibly sad for those kids.

I agree. The tragedy of this story are those children.

I can understand that they didn't have the typical sibling feelings for each other because they didn't grow up together

True, but they did mention in the story that they were well aware of the fact that they were siblings long before they started bumping uglies

but didn't they consider the risks to any children they might have?

I would say the answer to this question is an emphatic NO!

Some family friends of ours are married and they are first cousins. I guess it was a big problem in their family for a long time and certain relatives never got over it. Their parents eventually came around though. They had 2 perfectly healthy, normal kids and have been married for about 35-40 years.

The big difference with that scenario is that it is perfectly legal to marry your first cousin in about half of all the states in this country, so you're not violating the law in a lot of states, by marrying your first cousin. I'm not a scientist, but I think the other side of that equation is that the further removed you are from the lineage (i.e. first cousin, second cousin, etc.), the risk of a birth defect is greatly diminished. Having said that, I'm not marrying my cousin, anytime soon


John from Boston

[tj]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women
* women to marry men who pretend to be women pretending to be men.
* men and/or women who want to marry animals

[scarygirl]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women
* women to marry men who pretend to be women pretending to be men.
* men and/or women who want to marry animals

Here's food for thought. What if you were a man all along, but didn't know it? or vice versa? IE. a hermaphrodite? What do you do? What does your partner that you've been married to for years do? I read a case study. This woman had trouble conceiving, so she went to the gynochologist, specialists whatever, and after numerous tests, it was determined she was in fact male. Now, she nor her husband knew this. For all intensive purposes she looked 100 percent female. Had female equipment. Her doctor, not wanting to devistate her or her husband, did not tell her. Just said she was infertile and to adopt.

[StoneCold]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women
* women to marry men who pretend to be women pretending to be men.
* men and/or women who want to marry animals

At the risk of being accused of being close minded, I have to say I agree with this.

For those that are gender confused, there is such a thing as celibacy. Don't think anyone ever died from it.

[Sarah]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women

At least these types of relationships don't produce genetically unstable children. That's the problem with incest.

[finalfight]

The expert for human genetics in that video looks more like a mistake of human genetics!

[tj]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women

At least these types of relationships don't produce genetically unstable children. That's the problem with incest.

genetically, no. unstable? frequently.

[Sarah]

genetically, no. unstable? frequently.

Proof?

[7 Wishes]

genetically, no. unstable? frequently.

Right.

Unlike normal relationships, which always are healthy and stable.

[conversationpc]

genetically, no. unstable? frequently.

Proof?

Though the instance of genetic problems is higher in incestuous relationships, it's really an old wive's tale as the prevlance of them.

[tj]

genetically, no. unstable? frequently.

Proof?

From the American College of Pediatricians:


"Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed "committed relationships." Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies, and shortened life spans. Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.

[Enigma869]

From the American College of Pediatricians:


"Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed "committed relationships." Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies, and shortened life spans. Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.

Complete and utter bullshit! Just one more gay bashing thread under the guise of "looking out for the welfare of the children". Listen, I'm disgustingly heterosexual, but you people who think all gay people need to rot in hell need to get a life! Also, I wouldn't believe everything a doctor says. Especially when you're advancing the premise of a physician's board, that doesn't deal with the psychoanalysis of children! I'm going to go out on a limb here and just guess that you're from the south!


John from Boston

[FishinMagician]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women
* women to marry men who pretend to be women pretending to be men.
* men and/or women who want to marry animals

oh ya, because those relationships don't produce fucked up offspring!! except for the last one lol, but i didnt know that was considered OK? at least not in my city haha

[FishinMagician]

While I think incest is wrong and an incredibly bad idea, I don't understand why some people think that it is OK for:

* men to marry men
* women to marry women
* men to marry women who used to be men
* women to marry men who used to be women
* men to marry men who pretend to be women
* women to marry men who pretend to be women pretending to be men.
* men and/or women who want to marry animals

At the risk of being accused of being close minded, I have to say I agree with this.

For those that are gender confused, there is such a thing as celibacy. Don't think anyone ever died from it.

i know i would die from it!! other people having sex doesnt affect you anyways

[tj]

From the American College of Pediatricians:

"Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed "committed relationships." Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies, and shortened life spans. Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.

Complete and utter bullshit! Just one more gay bashing thread under the guise of "looking out for the welfare of the children". Listen, I'm disgustingly heterosexual, but you people who think all gay people need to rot in hell need to get a life! Also, I wouldn't believe everything a doctor says. Especially when you're advancing the premise of a physician's board, that doesn't deal with the psychoanalysis of children! I'm going to go out on a limb here and just guess that you're from the south!


John from Boston

1. I am not interested in your sexual preferences, whether hetero, homo, or otherwise. Not interested that you are disgusting either.

2. I am disappointed, though not surprised, that this was immediately attacked as gay bashing. That is a frequent EMOTIONAL response to this argument where DATA supports the opposing point of view. That's fine. I understand getting upset when data are aligned against feelings. It makes it hard to argue when the other side uses data. I go through this with my children daily.

3. I don't think gay people need to rot in hell, never have and never will. It's not my place (nor would I want) to determine who will and will not rot in hell. I didn't say here that I thought they should, nor will I ever, because it is not my opinion. My desire is for all people, hetero or homosexual to be forgiven and not have to spend eternity in hell.

4. I have a life, an eternal one, because I have been forgiven of my sin. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely. I also repent of them and try to do better. My life on this earth is a pretty good one, though nothing like the one I will have in eternity.

5. There are dozens of perspectives on the psychoanalysis of children. This is one. My goal is not to ADVANCE anything. I was asked to provide proof of an earlier statement. This source is one example of that proof.

6. Finally, Being from the North, South, East or West has nothing to do with the DATA supporting or refuting an argument. Not sure why you felt need to mention it. If you are from Boston, you are South of somewhere as well.

[Enigma869]

I have a life, an eternal one, because I have been forgiven of my sin. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely. I also repent of them and try to do better. My life on this earth is a pretty good one, though nothing like the one I will have in eternity.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that you're simply another bible-thumping yahoo, living in "The Bible Belt", admonishing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your code of morality! The one thing I've learned about many "southerners" (and I don't mean all southerners, because I realize there are exceptions to EVERY rule) is that they can condemn gay people, african-american people, people of any faith that isn't protestant, etc., but as long as they are a "Good Christian", everything is alright! As I've said in the past here, the most religious people I ever met in my life is when I worked for the Massachusetts Department of Correction, so the holy morality bullshit doesn't fly with me! And just so I'm clear, I'm referring to the convicted felons! You won't find more "Good Christians" anywhere than you will find behind the walls of a state prison! The bottom line is that you're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else is here. As someone who has worked "in the system", I can tell you there are MANY children who would give ANYTHING to have ANY family, at all, regardless of what they're doing in their bedrooms!


John from Boston

[Sarah]

From the American College of Pediatricians:

"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a medical association of conservative pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by Dr. Joseph Zanga, in response to the American Academy of Pediatrics's support for LGBT parental rights[1][2]."
-Wikipedia

WELL OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT!

How about a credible less biased scientific source?

[yulog]

From the American College of Pediatricians:

"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a medical association of conservative pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by Dr. Joseph Zanga, in response to the American Academy of Pediatrics's support for LGBT parental rights[1][2]."
-Wikipedia

WELL OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT!

How about a credible less biased scientific source?

Like wikipedia is a real credible source for information

[Sarah]

2. I am disappointed, though not surprised, that this was immediately attacked as gay bashing. That is a frequent EMOTIONAL response to this argument where DATA supports the opposing point of view. That's fine. I understand getting upset when data are aligned against feelings. It makes it hard to argue when the other side uses data. I go through this with my children daily.

3. I don't think gay people need to rot in hell, never have and never will. It's not my place (nor would I want) to determine who will and will not rot in hell. I didn't say here that I thought they should, nor will I ever, because it is not my opinion. My desire is for all people, hetero or homosexual to be forgiven and not have to spend eternity in hell.

Ok, then if you're not gay bashing and you don't think they need to rot in hell, why do you care at all what they do? It really isn't any of your business.

By the way, I am fighting this because my roommate is gay and he is my best friend. I've met gay men through him and I've been to gay clubs with him and they're frankly more courteous and well-behaved overall than the straight men I know. There is nothing wrong with what they do. You have now confirmed that your opinion is based on Christian values, which are notably intolerant anyway (Enigma I'm with you on this one!). If you have anal sex with a girl is that also wrong, then? TBH there are a lot of much creepier fetishes that straight people can/do partake in.

[Sarah]

Like wikipedia is a real credible source for information

Not always, no. But a small description like this WITH CITATIONS? Yes.

[Saint John]

Popcorn time!!! Yulog?

[tj]

I have a life, an eternal one, because I have been forgiven of my sin. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely. I also repent of them and try to do better. My life on this earth is a pretty good one, though nothing like the one I will have in eternity.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that you're simply another bible-thumping yahoo, living in "The Bible Belt", admonishing everyone who doesn't subscribe to your code of morality! The one thing I've learned about many "southerners" (and I don't mean all southerners, because I realize there are exceptions to EVERY rule) is that they can condemn gay people, african-american people, people of any faith that isn't protestant, etc., but as long as they are a "Good Christian", everything is alright! As I've said in the past here, the most religious people I ever met in my life is when I worked for the Massachusetts Department of Correction, so the holy morality bullshit doesn't fly with me! And just so I'm clear, I'm referring to the convicted felons! You won't find more "Good Christians" anywhere than you will find behind the walls of a state prison! The bottom line is that you're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else is here. As someone who has worked "in the system", I can tell you there are MANY children who would give ANYTHING to have ANY family, at all, regardless of what they're doing in their bedrooms!


John from Boston

Wow. Got something you need to repent of? You seem a little touchy.

Let me clear up your misunderstandings:

1. I have NEVER, NOT EVEN ONCE IN MY LIFE, thumped a Bible. Read it a lot, but never thumped it. This, then, eliminates the validity of your entire first sentence - perhaps your entire response.

2. You have assumed that I am a "Southerner". I am in fact a Southwesterner. This is not my preferred choice of geographic terminology, but that used by geographers worldwide, nonetheless.

3. I have not and do not condemn anyone. The Bible teaches that those who do not repent of their sin and seek forgiveness through Jesus Christ will not reach heaven. I didn't write it. I just read it and choose to believe it.

4. I have and continue to have many friends who are black, homosexual, non-protestant, etc. Let's see, I roomed with 2 homosexual men for a while during college. The following "categories" were groomsmen and ushers in my wedding: homosexuals, blacks, a quadriplegic, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist. I have worked for, hired and promoted both men and women who were homosexual, black, hispanic, asian, Mormon, Catholic, Athiest and many other backgrounds. I DO NOT discriminate in my relationships with people based on race, color, sexuality, religion or any number of other categories.

5. Please don't confuse religion with Christianity. Religion is a set of beliefs which can be all over the map. True Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Being a Christian does not mean that I don't sin. I wish it did. How much easier my life would be. It means that I do sin, but am aware that my sin keeps me from a full relationship with God. Through Jesus, who died on the cross to atone for MY sin, I am made clean.

6. Thank you, sincerely, for your work both in prisons and with children. When done for the right reasons, both are admirable. I know that both are difficult as well.

7. I agree that some children would love to have any family. But any "family" is not necessarily what is best for the child. In your work with children, I am sure you have come across many "families" who are not good for the child.

8. Finally, what someone does in their bedroom is not my business. It is theirs. If, however, they choose to make it mine by declaring it, they should not be surprised or upset if I choose to believe that what they do there is not best for children.

[tj]

From the American College of Pediatricians:

"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a medical association of conservative pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by Dr. Joseph Zanga, in response to the American Academy of Pediatrics's support for LGBT parental rights[1][2]."
-Wikipedia

WELL OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT!

How about a credible less biased scientific source?

Most of what I have found in Wikipedia is half truths and quite a lot of outright falsehoods. Just look up Journey there and see how much is crap.

I agree, Of course they are going to say that, because it is accurate. Here are some additional sources, feel free to look them up:


10 Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications," Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59.

11 D. Island and P. Letellier, Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (New York: Haworth Press, 1991), p. 14.

12 Lettie L. Lockhart et al., "Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (1994): 469-492.

13 "Violence Between Intimates," Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p. 2.

14 Health Implications Associated With Homosexuality (Austin: The Medical Institute for Sexual Health, 1999), p. 79.

15 David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984), pp. 252, 253.

16 M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 1973), p. 225; L. A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality: Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982).

17 M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster (New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985), pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), pp. 124, 125.

18 A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981).

19 Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354.

20 A. A. Deenen, "Intimacy and Sexuality in Gay Male Couples," Archives of Sexual Behavior, 23 (1994): 421-431.

21 "Sex Survey Results," Genre (October 1996), quoted in "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January 1998, p. 20.

22 Maria Xiridoui, et al., “The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam,” AIDS 17 (2003): 1029-1038. [Note: one of the findings of this recent study is that those classified as being in “steady relationships” reported an average of 8 casual partners a year in addition to their partner (p. 1032)]

23 J. Bradford et al., "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81.

24 Theo G. M. Sandfort, et al., "Same-sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders," Archives of General Psychiatry 58 (January 2001): 85-91.

25 Bailey, J.M. Commentary: Homosexuality and mental illness. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry. 56 (1999): 876-880. Author states, "These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, and nicotine dependence...."

26 Joanne Hall, "Lesbians Recovering from Alcoholic Problems: An Ethnographic Study of Health Care Expectations," Nursing Research 43 (1994): 238-244

27 R. Herrell et al., "Sexual Orientation and Suicidality, Co-twin Study in Adult Men," Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (1999): 867-874.

28 Vickie M. Mays, et al., "Risk of Psychiatric Disorders among Individuals Reporting Same-sex Sexual Partners in the National Comorbidity Survey," American Journal of Public Health, vol. 91 (June 2001): 933-939.

29 Robert S. Hogg et al., "Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology 26 (1997): 657.

30 Sandfort, T.G.M.; de Graaf, R.; Bijl, R.V.; Schnabel. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry. 58 (2001): 85-91.

31 F. Tasker and S. Golombok, "Adults Raised as Children in Lesbian Families," American Journal of Orthopsychiatric Association, 65 (1995): 213.

32 J. Michael Bailey et al., "Sexual Orientation of Adult Sons of Gay Fathers," Developmental Psychology 31 (1995): 124-129

33 Ibid., pp. 127, 128.

34 F. Tasker and S. Golombok, "Do Parents Influence the Sexual Orientation of Their Children?" Developmental Psychology 32 (1996): 7.

35 Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, "(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter," American Sociological Review 66 (2001): 174, 179.

36 D. Fergusson et al., "Is Sexual Orientation Related to Mental Health Problems and Suicidality in Young People?" Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (October 1999).

[FishinMagician]

From the American College of Pediatricians:

"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a medical association of conservative pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by Dr. Joseph Zanga, in response to the American Academy of Pediatrics's support for LGBT parental rights[1][2]."
-Wikipedia

WELL OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT!

How about a credible less biased scientific source?

Like wikipedia is a real credible source for information

it has citations, which nobody seems to know