Lefsetz tidbit on Journey/Wal Mart...

[Moon Beam]

I found THIS while drilling down in his blogs.

Dude seems to have a good handle on things.
It's a good time to be managed by Irving.

VERY interesting.

Maybe so though he makes my head hurt spinin his sheet.

[conversationpc]

I found THIS while drilling down in his blogs.

Dude seems to have a good handle on things.
It's a good time to be managed by Irving.

VERY interesting.

Maybe so though he makes my head hurt spinin his sheet.

Huh?

[Moon Beam]

Maybe so though he makes my head hurt spinin his sheet.

Huh?

I was just saying how he goes way to much into wordly ways Dave.
You know me Sir, I so love folks that express emotion in more than five words
but this Lefsetz Lad leaves me lost most moments.
In other words, he don't do a damn thing for me.

[Maui Tom]

I have no idea what a Lefsetz is, so I thought all of the first post was Tom's writing...spent a few minutes wondering WTF!?! and then a few more wondering what he was drinking...

Vodka and Diet 7 Up....

[DrFU]

I have no idea what a Lefsetz is, so I thought all of the first post was Tom's writing...spent a few minutes wondering WTF!?! and then a few more wondering what he was drinking...

Vodka and Diet 7 Up....

...gah, like doing it in a canoe*



*effing near water

[sniper16]

no ones buying this for the hits, its not being puched for the hits, its not packaged as a hits cd, its a new cd with 2 bonus discs, get over it, put in for the love of stange singers and mop some more, you eithe rlike it or you dont.
if the cd was release as journey best of with bonus discs, where most peopkle wouldnt know its a rerecorded version, then i would agree, if anyone is confusing this for a greatest hits you really wouldnt know how to post on the internet .

[Maui Tom]

I have no idea what a Lefsetz is, so I thought all of the first post was Tom's writing...spent a few minutes wondering WTF!?! and then a few more wondering what he was drinking...

Vodka and Diet 7 Up....

...gah, like doing it in a canoe*



*effing near water

gotta go with what you have!

[strangegrey]

Bob did not miss the boat. He's spot on....and he *always* is! At the end of the day, this album isn't going to match the greatness of the past, no matter how much all of you wish or want to will it to happen. You may have bought the album...good for you. Enjoy it if you want. But, a small dose of reality might help you out in knowing that most people don't even care.

The point, Bob was clearly making, is that the small chunk of sales that Journey have eeked out (due in large part to massive walmart machine promotion resulting in alot of impulse sales) is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. This isn't going to earn the band a spot in the rock and roll hall of fame, or make high school proms committees reconsider their 'song list'.

But what the hell did I even say that for. Most of you have such a warped sense of reality, that if you dropped a pencil, it would go sailing to the ceiling, bounce a few times before sticking to the ceiling....

[kgdjpubs]

Bob did not miss the boat. He's spot on....and he *always* is! At the end of the day, this album isn't going to match the greatness of the past, no matter how much all of you wish or want to will it to happen. You may have bought the album...good for you. Enjoy it if you want. But, a small dose of reality might help you out in knowing that most people don't even care.

The point, Bob was clearly making, is that the small chunk of sales that Journey have eeked out (due in large part to massive walmart machine promotion resulting in alot of impulse sales) is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. This isn't going to earn the band a spot in the rock and roll hall of fame, or make high school proms committees reconsider their 'song list'.

There are two points, and a third more hidden, in that column that need addressing.

First, the buying for the greatest hits. Frankly, I don't see it. Regardless of what stickers you place on the cover, the album is advertised and labeled as a new album, NOT greatest-hits-sung-by-someone-you've-never-heard-of-plus-some-new-songs-you-don't-care-about. I don't know about anyone else, but most people I've met don't really care about how the new guy does the Greatest Hits. I like Kevin Chalfant as a singer and will buy new material, but don't own his Journey covers cd and probably never will. Jeremey and Frontiers are playing 20 minutes away later this week, and it's unlikely that I will go to see them as it's not worth the money to see them perform one new song of "original" material (I'll consider Never Walk Away original since Jeremey did help write it). Put Jeremey out in 2-3hrs of driving distance with original material and I'll gladly make the trip if I can. I just simply don't have much interest in seeing a full concert of cover songs, regardless of how good the band is. I'll see Journey with a different singer, but the band remains the same--however if they fall into playing a setlist of Perry-only material, my days of spending money with them are limited. I'm digressing from the point however--the album is NOT being marketed (or being exhibited) as the Greatest Hits, so counting sales as simply adding to the GH total is minimalizing the sales for the first week, regardless of how many were or were not sold--and I just don't see a lot of people running to buy re-recordings done with another singer, regardless of how good he is. If so, tribute albums would likely outsell the original acts.

2nd...impulse buying. Just curious, since when did ANYTHING in the pop culture spectrum (concerts, movies, dvds, cds, video games, candy, etc) become anything other than impulse buying. That is ALWAYS what it was, and likely, the way it always will be. Granted, the price and value for money on the Journey package makes this a whole lot easier, but pop culture has always been about impulse purchases. It's a simple case of remembering that you liked that song on the radio, so let's buy the cd since you're already here. It's just the way the economy runs. Ever wonder why candy bars are at the check out line and food commercials run on the theatre screen all the time before the movie starts?!?!?

3rd point....THIS is a lot of what he was getting at, and this one is the most interesting, and likely to have considerably more far-reaching consequences. The "success" of the album is not as much due to Journey as it is to Walmart. Let me expand on this a bit. OK, the music industry is in what amounts to free fall. For lack of a better word, the entire industry is collapsing on top of itself. Then, Walmart comes up out of the blue and scores a MAJOR hit with a new album from The Eagles, who should be irrevalent in today's society. You just don't see teenagers singing Hotel California at the bus stop. Having one album get popular can be viewed as simply a fluke however--right band, right time, stars aligning, etc. It DID catch people off guard though. Walmart isn't a music label, and they did better than the big labels out there. That makes a lot of people stand up and take notice, but at this moment, it is still unproven whether The Eagles were a fluke, or if Walmart really can compete with the big music labels.

IF Walmart gets a hit with Journey....and we are still a LONG ways off from having that discussion (prob 500,000 copies sold minimum before any conclusions can be drawn from this), then the next stage of the music industry collapse as we know it just got that much closer. Having one huge hit doesn't mean much other than raise eyebrows--you have to be consistent. If Walmart gets a hit with Journey, then they are MUCH closer to being seen as a legit record label that can compete with the big industry standards. It also opens the doors wide for any company that can sink big dollars in to an act to potentially get HUGE dividends back if they can get the album to sell. Like I said though, we are still a LONG ways away from realistically having that conversation, and Journey's album probably needs to at least go gold before this becomes viable, but this could be very interesting. Unlike radio however, Walmart is appealing to Journey's target audience, which means this does at least have a needle-in-a-haystack chance.

Either way though, a lot of the "success" here is probably more due to Walmart than Journey. Journey gets a huge benefit, of course. If it becomes a hit though, Walmart is the true success story here for defeating the major music labels at their own game.

[Red13JoePa]

It's all about the new album for me and for just about everyone else.

Just about, I guess, but not everyone.

I grin a big shit-eater of satisfaction, ear-to-ear every time I play disc 2.

[conversationpc]

It's all about the new album for me and for just about everyone else.

Just about, I guess, but not everyone.

I grin a big shit-eater of satisfaction, ear-to-ear every time I play disc 2.

Do you actually like those versions better than the originals? Really?

[Matthew]

It's all about the new album for me and for just about everyone else.

Just about, I guess, but not everyone.

I grin a big shit-eater of satisfaction, ear-to-ear every time I play disc 2.

Do you actually like those versions better than the originals? Really?

Don't fall for it Dave. Old Red only says he likes Disc 2 because it annoys the Loons...

[Red13JoePa]

No, I do like it, I've LONG been a proponent of doing this back through the Augeri and Jeff years.
The fact that loons sanctimoniously decry the THOUGHT of it?
That's where my sophomoric glee comes from.

I even support perry doing the same thing now.

But I DO like the new versions, maybe b/c I'm not married to the old ones.

[conversationpc]

No, I do like it, I've LONG been a proponent of doing this back through the Augeri and Jeff years.
The fact that loons sanctimoniously decry the THOUGHT of it?
That's where my sophomoric glee comes from.

I even support perry doing the same thing now.

But I DO like the new versions, maybe b/c I'm not married to the old ones.

I'm certainly not a loon but I also wish they hadn't done it or, at the very least, they should've changed them up a bit more (not to the extent Bon Jovi did with theirs).

[Matthew]

, at the very least, they should've changed them up a bit more

Yes - I think that's actually the most disappointing aspect of it all. Especially since most of the tracks are played in the bog-standard way on the DVD.

[kgdjpubs]

I'm certainly not a loon but I also wish they hadn't done it or, at the very least, they should've changed them up a bit more (not to the extent Bon Jovi did with theirs).

I think the reason is so they can use the songs wherever they want and not have it blatantly obvious that the redos are playing. Arnel does more improvs with every show he performs, so it's obvious being VERY close to the originals was intentional.

[strangegrey]

kgdjpubs,

Good points all around...but let me offer a few comments.

An impulse buy is a buy of something you didn't walk into the store to originally buy...i.e. you didn't get in the car to get it, but got it when you saw it. Have people gotten in the car to drive to wallyworld to specifically buy regurgutations....absolutely. Alot of people. However, make no mistake, the impulse buy factor comes greater into play with older comsumers. People dont go home, watch Ellen and go 'shit, I need to go to walmart'. They tuck it away after seeing Arnel butcher Seperate Ways...and go 'maybe I need to grab that the next time I drive to wally world to get toilet paper. fast forward, two weeks later...the person is on line buying scotts and revultions. She drove to walmart to get toilet paper because she needed it...she walked past the end cap with the album on it. She grabbed it becuase it was only 11.98. The purchase of regenerations, was most certainly an IMPULSE BUY....by any definition of the term. Granted, I still think that the more apropriate discussion is what the person should wipe her ass with when she gets home, the scotts or the cd.

Some people are attributing the eagles to the 'invention' of the walmart CD label. People fail to recognize that they are not the first to try this walmart model. The credit belongs to and is deserving of Garth Brooks. He was the first, and they scored hits with a box set AND a greatest hits packasge. So much so that walmart licensed out the greatest hits package for purchase in other stores....

Journey isn't a test bed for walmart, Walmart is a test bed for Journey. Journey is hoping to latch onto the success of Garth and The Eagles....I'm not convinced that the label, however, is what sells a record.....no matter what condition the record industry is in. The artist sells the record....i.e. what's on the CD needs to be good for people to want to buy it.

I will also submit that this record needs to go a good bit farther than 'gold' before it can be termed a success, given the past record sales of the band....

[Michigan Girl]

kgdjpubs,

Good points all around...but let me offer a few comments.

An impulse buy is a buy of something you didn't walk into the store to originally buy...i.e. you didn't get in the car to get it, but got it when you saw it. Have people gotten in the car to drive to wallyworld to specifically buy regurgutations....absolutely. Alot of people. However, make no mistake, the impulse buy factor comes greater into play with older comsumers. People dont go home, watch Ellen and go 'shit, I need to go to walmart'. They tuck it away after seeing Arnel butcher Seperate Ways...and go 'maybe I need to grab that the next time I drive to wally world to get toilet paper. fast forward, two weeks later...the person is on line buying scotts and revultions. She drove to walmart to get toilet paper because she needed it...she walked past the end cap with the album on it. She grabbed it becuase it was only 11.98. The purchase of regenerations, was most certainly an IMPULSE BUY....by any definition of the term. Granted, I still think that the more apropriate discussion is what the person should wipe her ass with when she gets home, the scotts or the cd.
Some people are attributing the eagles to the 'invention' of the walmart CD label. People fail to recognize that they are not the first to try this walmart model. The credit belongs to and is deserving of Garth Brooks. He was the first, and they scored hits with a box set AND a greatest hits packasge. So much so that walmart licensed out the greatest hits package for purchase in other stores....

Journey isn't a test bed for walmart, Walmart is a test bed for Journey. Journey is hoping to latch onto the success of Garth and The Eagles....I'm not convinced that the label, however, is what sells a record.....no matter what condition the record industry is in. The artist sells the record....i.e. what's on the CD needs to be good for people to want to buy it.

I will also submit that this record needs to go a good bit farther than 'gold' before it can be termed a success, given the past record sales of the band....

Makes PERFECT sense....but funny as heck!!!!

[kgdjpubs]

kgdjpubs,

Good points all around...but let me offer a few comments.

An impulse buy is a buy of something you didn't walk into the store to originally buy...i.e. you didn't get in the car to get it, but got it when you saw it. Have people gotten in the car to drive to wallyworld to specifically buy regurgutations....absolutely. Alot of people. However, make no mistake, the impulse buy factor comes greater into play with older comsumers. People dont go home, watch Ellen and go 'shit, I need to go to walmart'. They tuck it away after seeing Arnel butcher Seperate Ways...and go 'maybe I need to grab that the next time I drive to wally world to get toilet paper. fast forward, two weeks later...the person is on line buying scotts and revultions. She drove to walmart to get toilet paper because she needed it...she walked past the end cap with the album on it. She grabbed it becuase it was only 11.98. The purchase of regenerations, was most certainly an IMPULSE BUY....by any definition of the term. Granted, I still think that the more apropriate discussion is what the person should wipe her ass with when she gets home, the scotts or the cd.

That is all true, but I still maintain that a fair amount of cd sales for Journey will be the impulse thing--especially with Walmart blasting the dvd all over the place. At the same time, while there will be people that rush home from their Journey concert this summer to the nearest Walmart to pick up the cd, there will also be some that end up in the store at some point or another, remember the show, see the dvd playing and pick up the cd. To continue the candy analogy, it's not the people forget what a Snicker's bar tastes like, they just see one at the check out line and get the urge to pick one up. It's still impulse unless they went directly to Walmart specifically to buy the cd.

Some people are attributing the eagles to the 'invention' of the walmart CD label. People fail to recognize that they are not the first to try this walmart model. The credit belongs to and is deserving of Garth Brooks. He was the first, and they scored hits with a box set AND a greatest hits packasge. So much so that walmart licensed out the greatest hits package for purchase in other stores....

Journey isn't a test bed for walmart, Walmart is a test bed for Journey. Journey is hoping to latch onto the success of Garth and The Eagles....I'm not convinced that the label, however, is what sells a record.....no matter what condition the record industry is in. The artist sells the record....i.e. what's on the CD needs to be good for people to want to buy it.

ahh, yes, I had forgot about Garth...but that has been several years--and he was absolutely huge at the time. I'm still not convinced of the validity of Walmart as a record label--at least in the long term view. Having one or two success stories isn't enough, you need consistency. Honestly, I'm just surprised this hasn't been tried before now. It seems so obvious looking back on it.

As far as Journey goes, of course they are trying to latch onto Garth and The Eagles. Who wouldn't?!?!? Whatever Walmart does is better than they were getting with Sony.

As far as who sells the album, be it the label or the artist--that is a LONG debate. It can't be questioned that people go for the music, not the label, and without the songs, nothing will sell. At the same time however, without promotion and knowledge of the song/album by the general public, nothing will sell. Plenty of great, hit-ladden albums have fallen by the wayside for lack of promotion. Still, you can't give all the credit to the music itself, otherwise Britney Spears, New Kids on the Block, and N'Sync must be some of the best music to come out in history, so the label HAS to figure in there somewhere. In the end, I think it's 50/50 as to label vs. artist. The artist must have the songs, and the label must attract the target group to buy the cd. You must have both songs AND promotion for an album to sell.

To some extent though, Walmart is sitting on a pot of gold as they are appealing to the EXACT audience the record labels forgot about--that being the non-teenager market. The mom and dad with kids who liked band x when they were growing up, and while shopping at Walmart for the family, realizes Band X is still around and has a new album out. Sony and the other labels only catered to MTV and other teen hotspots, which was never the crowd that The Eagles/Journey, etc. were going to appeal to--at least not without other means. Journey has sorta captured the best of both worlds with the Sopranos finale, as they have gotten back somewhat towards the "cool" stature as opposed to being "my mom likes them ".

What is easy to see is that the major labels went for the EASIEST way to promote an album--to the kids. It was considerably easier to reach the teen market and tap into the end-all-be-all of what is cool, than to try and reach the adults who like music, but have everything else in the way, and very little free time. So, instead of even trying, they simply forgot the market even existed. I don't know the timing, and could well be off here...but I wonder if the Tony Bennett/Rod Stewart Great American Songbook success was the turning point to make the record labels realize there was a huge market that they were not appealing to--and thus where Walmart stepped in.

I will also submit that this record needs to go a good bit farther than 'gold' before it can be termed a success, given the past record sales of the band....

As far as Journey goes, that MIGHT be enough, but it's definitely on the low side. To the best of my knowledge, you are charting untested waters here. Someone can chime in if they know something, but I'm not aware of ANY band that has ever made a comeback from obscurity without it's most visible/prominent/well-known member. Sure, there are bands that have replaced a lead singer and gone on to enjoy major success (AC/DC, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Van Halen come to mind), but they were big at the time. Survivor did it, but was only about 2 years removed from Eye of the Tiger, so they were still well known. There have also been groups that came back from obscurity to have a hit (The Eagles, Journey in 1996 to name a few), but there weren't any huge lineup changes, so you were still marketing the "classic lineup". Queen + Paul Rodgers is a possibility, but a dvd doesn't count, and there is no studio cd as of yet. IF Journey succeeds, it might be the first to make a comeback with major personnel changes in the band. The average fan has no attachment to Augeri so, marketing wise, you are still trying to replace Perry.

For Walmart to take a dead band (at least as far as album sales go), replace the best-known and most visible member (Perry), and sell 500,000 copies of a new cd would be a major accomplishment no matter how you look at it. It's not a huge success, but well beyond what Sony did with them--and that might just be enough. We're still WELL away from being able to have this conversation however, as the album needs to keep selling. Equaling Arrival's record isn't going to do a thing, and we're not even there...yet.

[jrnyman28]

I will also submit that this record needs to go a good bit farther than 'gold' before it can be termed a success, given the past record sales of the band....

Not in this day and age. It is a sad reality that 50,000 gets you into the top 10 (Def Leppard) and 200,000 gets you number 1. But by TODAY'S standards, Revelations is a success. Again sadly, longevity on a chart would be more indicative of true success...ie Buckcherry's 15. But that is the exception, not the norm. And when you compare the sales of Journey to the sales of Revelation you need only to compare to Generations, Red 13 and Arrival to see this as a sucess. You cannot compare sales today to sales in the 80's (or even the 90's).

[yulog]

ska-doosh

Never seen this one before, I like it loads!
Good word brandonpfn.

Maybe you can put some canadian taint on it and change it to ska-dooshly