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Postby Saint John » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:08 pm

Arianddu wrote:
X factor wrote:Nope, I call bs on saying this is "whining"- The fact of the matter is it's OBVIOUS that the Chinese have cheated, and there's nothing wrong with Martha Karolyi calling it what it is!
There was a state published story about one of the gymnasts being 13 that come out a few months ago, and was mytsteriously buried....nope- it's cheating pure and simple, and it's class-less!


How is it cheating? If a child of 10 can out-perform an 'adult' of 18 in a sport that requires physical strength, stamina and discipline, how is it cheating? I would think putting a child into those circumstances is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

While I don't agree with the ethics of using children this way, it's not so different from a lot of other sports. Swimmers, tennis players, gymnasts; they all need to start daily training by the time they are 10 if they are going to get anywhere in their chosen sport. I know Australia has put up 13, 14 and 15 year old swimmers in the past who have won gold at the Olympics. I personally think it borders on child abuse to put someone in that position at an age when they can't really make an informed decision about their life choices, but I don't think you can call it cheating.


The rules state that you must be at least 16...that's how!!!
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Postby Don » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:10 pm

Arianddu wrote:
X factor wrote:Nope, I call bs on saying this is "whining"- The fact of the matter is it's OBVIOUS that the Chinese have cheated, and there's nothing wrong with Martha Karolyi calling it what it is!
There was a state published story about one of the gymnasts being 13 that come out a few months ago, and was mytsteriously buried....nope- it's cheating pure and simple, and it's class-less!


How is it cheating? If a child of 10 can out-perform an 'adult' of 18 in a sport that requires physical strength, stamina and discipline, how is it cheating? I would think putting a child into those circumstances is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

While I don't agree with the ethics of using children this way, it's not so different from a lot of other sports. Swimmers, tennis players, gymnasts; they all need to start daily training by the time they are 10 if they are going to get anywhere in their chosen sport. I know Australia has put up 13, 14 and 15 year old swimmers in the past who have won gold at the Olympics. I personally think it borders on child abuse to put someone in that position at an age when they can't really make an informed decision about their life choices, but I don't think you can call it cheating.


It's cheating because it's against the rules. We could have used our own 10 year olds if it was allowed so the outcome might have been different.
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Postby jourmapac » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:35 pm

Ehwmatt wrote:
Ugh, that second answer is just disgusting. Most sports reward more size. Give smaller people a break. The first answer is reasonable in addressing the actual pressures they face once on the world stage.

But, I doubt this rule is doing anything to save minors from overtraining and what not in the long run, and that's arguably the most important rationale behind it.


I SECOND THAT!! GIVE US A BREAK!!!
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Postby Arianddu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:55 pm

Saint John wrote:
Arianddu wrote:
X factor wrote:Nope, I call bs on saying this is "whining"- The fact of the matter is it's OBVIOUS that the Chinese have cheated, and there's nothing wrong with Martha Karolyi calling it what it is!
There was a state published story about one of the gymnasts being 13 that come out a few months ago, and was mytsteriously buried....nope- it's cheating pure and simple, and it's class-less!


How is it cheating? If a child of 10 can out-perform an 'adult' of 18 in a sport that requires physical strength, stamina and discipline, how is it cheating? I would think putting a child into those circumstances is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

While I don't agree with the ethics of using children this way, it's not so different from a lot of other sports. Swimmers, tennis players, gymnasts; they all need to start daily training by the time they are 10 if they are going to get anywhere in their chosen sport. I know Australia has put up 13, 14 and 15 year old swimmers in the past who have won gold at the Olympics. I personally think it borders on child abuse to put someone in that position at an age when they can't really make an informed decision about their life choices, but I don't think you can call it cheating.


The rules state that you must be at least 16...that's how!!!


Fair enough! Serves me right for not checking first :lol: :lol:
Why treat life as a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in an attractive & well-preserved body? Get there by skidding in sideways, a glass of wine in one hand, chocolate in the other, body totally worn out, screaming WOOHOO! What a ride!
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Postby jrnyjunky » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:25 am

I don't think that the Chinese gymnists look 16, but I also think that you have to take into consideration their racial charactics. Asians are generally smaller built. My mom is 4'11" my dad is 6'1". Americans tend to have a large variety of sizes because our ancestors came from somewhere else. We are a melting pot. Those girls probably only have Asian ancestors which is why they are generally small. There are exceptions in that just like with everything, but for the most part, they are small.

And annie89509, you look awesome. You don't look anywhere near 53.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:27 am

Is this a Chinese rule? There was some girl on last night who was listed at 15 from Romania or somewhereabouts.
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Postby Don » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:33 am

Ehwmatt wrote:Is this a Chinese rule? There was some girl on last night who was listed at 15 from Romania or somewhereabouts.


I think that as long as she turns 16 before the end of the year she is eligible, i'm not sure. The rule applies to all participants regardless of country. It wasn't that the Chinese girl looked too young. It was that her age was given at another event as an official age that was 14. When it was exposed that two different sources including a goverment sanctioned athletic organization had reported her as 14 earlier in the year both said they made mistakes and retracted their earlier reports. I think that is what happened but it's sketchy because the Chinese keep changing their story.
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Postby edcha » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:50 am

OK, here's an old article that I believe can help shed a little light on this discussion. :idea:

http://www.speakout.com/activism/issue_ ... 87b-1.html

Prepubescent Pixies: Should There Be A Higher Minimum Age For Olympic Gymnasts?
by John Barry
Tuesday, January 9, 2001

In 1972 Russian Olga Korbut won the gold medal and the hearts of the world with her full rotation back flip on the balance beam. She was 17 years old, she wore pony tails, and she was the youngest, cutest competitor in a sport where the average competitor was usually in her low-to-mid twenties. With her spectacular performance, she ushered in the age of the "pixie" gymnasts: young, prepubescent girls who are able to use their tiny frames to perform flips and feats that their elders would never have dared. By the 1996 Olympics, though, even Olga Korbut would have been older than most in a sport where the average age of the competitors was about 15. Olga's famous backflip wouldn't have impressed the judges either. Now, women gymnasts perform three backflips in a row without blinking.

Bela Karolyi, the charismatic coach of the Romanian team and the 1996 US "Magnificent Seven", has been credited with increasing the level of performance while decreasing the average age of the performer. In 1976 the world was stunned with the flawless performance of 14-year-old Romanian Nadia Comaneci, who he had coached. He defected to the U.S. shortly after, and took his gymnastics philosophy with him. The standard was younger, shorter, and skinnier. The results spoke for themselves: in 1984, 16-year-old Mary Lou Retton won the gold medal under his tutelage. His team of tiny, perky and fearless 15-17 year olds won the U.S. a gold in 1996. The most endearing image was of the tiny, squeaky-voiced Kerri Strug performing a near-perfect vault with a sprained ankle to secure the gold for the U.S. team.

But these tiny, prepubescent girls were paying a price for this chance of a lifetime. Kerri Strug's career came to a halt after a long struggle with anorexia. In 1991 15-year-old Olympic hopeful Julissa Gomez died after breaking her neck after a misstep on her vault. A fellow gymnast, 15-year-old Christy Henrich, developed anorexia as she struggled to qualify for the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. She retired at 18, without a medal, and died last year at 22 weighing less than 50 pounds. In a sport where the careers are painfully short, many of these young gymnasts are subjected to the combined pressures of ambitious coaches and parents, and the ideal of the tiny wonder that was Nadia Comaneci. Unlike their male counterparts, who have to grow into their roles; "women" gymnasts are encouraged to stop growing.

In 1996, the Olympic committee tried to reverse this trend by creating a sixteen-year-old age minimum. This year, the seven-member U.S. team is significantly older than the last one. Amy Chow and Dominique Dawes were in their twenties; the youngest, Elise Ray, is 17. Some of them have more curvaceaous physiques and breasts. Karolyi has objected stenuously to the age limit, calling it "crazy discrimination." What about the ones who are smaller and better? he has asked. Shouldn't the Olympics just let the best one win?

On One Hand...
Age minimums need to be put in place if womens gymnastics is going to remain a viable Olympic Sport. The fourteen and fifteen year old gymnasts are being exploited. Parents find it easier to control kids at that age. Coaches find them easier to control. And audiences have come to enjoy the sight of pixie-like waifs performing unbelievable feats. Gymnastics is dangerous, physically demanding, and mentally grueling. Children shouldn't be forced through the gauntlet of training before they are able to prepare themselves mentally for the difficulties of six-to-eight hour days in the gym. Nor should they be encouraged to stunt their growth for the greater glory of the stage-hogging coaches such as Karolyi, who prides himself in his ability to manipulate these "little suckers" (as he has been quoted as calling them.) If anything, the age minimum should be increased to 18.

On the Other Hand...
Gymnastics should be open to any athlete who qualifies, no matter how old or young she is. The average age of the athletes has declined, because women in their twenties are less capable of doing the vaults and flips that 15-16 year olds can do. This became clear at the Olympic trials: a number of the stars of 1996, including Dawes and Miller, were clearly unable to perform on their previous level. Karolyi's last minute attempt to salvage the team failed, and the United States walked away without a medal in the team events. If Nadia Comaneci had not qualified for this Olympics because of her age, would she have qualified for the next? The younger gymnasts are usually the best, and they are the least susceptible to injury.

• The 2000 USA women's team includes 23-year-old Dominique Dawes and 22-year-old premed student Amy Chow. The youngest is 17-year-old Morgan White. High school is over for everybody but Morgan.

• "The combination of smaller, younger girls with more difficult routines can result in eating disorders, weakened bones, stunted growth, serious injuries, and damaged psyches," says San Francisco Chronicle columnist Joan Ryan.In her book Little Girls in Pretty Boxes, she reveals a world where some child athletes are so driven toward achievement that they wind up in an endless cycle of binging and vomiting to control their weight.

After 1996, the International Federation of Gymnasts instituted age requirements. No one younger than 16 can compete in these Olympics.

Los Angeles Times; Detroit News; Los Angeles Times
Last edited by edcha on Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:59 am

Hate to say this .... but the Chinese, in general, are very competitive people ... and not above reproach. Anyone with reasonably clear set of eyes can see these 3 particular girls in question (incidentally, the 3 that competed on the parallel bars and blew everyone else away) cannot possibly be 16 yrs. old. They look around 13-14. There was also a Romanian girl that looked awfully young.

Any 16 yr old girl would be reasonably developed and should start taking on adult features. These girls are just so, well .... girlish.

They said the 16-yr old rule was only implemented several olympics ago (Nadia Comenich sp? won all those golds as a 14-yr old). I think the chance to dominate over the gymnastics world was too much for China to pass up. I think they should have played fair, though.

Journeyjunky, thanks for the compliment. You are Jill, aren't you, from the PV board? And you met SP, at the WOF.
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Postby Sarah » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:06 am

hoagiepete wrote:I'm not sure I would disagree that there are some shinanigans going on, but... I sure wish the US Teams wouldn't whine about it. It makes us look like spoiled brats and poor losers.

Yeah I was going to say that... everyone's just mad because China beat us with kids.
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:10 am

Hmm, interesting article above. And this Bela K. guy who, according to the old Times article, wanted younger gymnasts, is now on TV lambasts China for using under-aged girls. I guess he's mad the US is following the rules, and China isn't.
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Re: Is ANYONE stupid enough to buy...

Postby edcha » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:14 am

annie89509 wrote:.....
I'll be 53 next month. Many people have said I could pass for 38.


annie, I agree you look great at 52!
BTW, I hate cheating! ... but, don't you think your statement above kinda help the Chinese defense just a little bit? :wink:
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Re: Is ANYONE stupid enough to buy...

Postby annie89509 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:26 am

edcha wrote:
annie89509 wrote:.....
I'll be 53 next month. Many people have said I could pass for 38.


annie, I agree you look great at 52!
BTW, I hate cheating! ... but, don't you think your statement above kinda help the Chinese defense just a little bit? :wink:

HI, edcha. Are you talking about my statement that I look young helping the Chinese defense? Now, only speaking stereotypically, does not apply to the WHOLE race, some of us are youthful looking. But, as I posted just above, those 3 girls in question absolutely DOES not look 16 yrs old. Their facial & body features are more of a 13 yr old.
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Re: Is ANYONE stupid enough to buy...

Postby X factor » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:06 am

annie89509 wrote:
edcha wrote:
annie89509 wrote:.....
I'll be 53 next month. Many people have said I could pass for 38.


annie, I agree you look great at 52!
BTW, I hate cheating! ... but, don't you think your statement above kinda help the Chinese defense just a little bit? :wink:

HI, edcha. Are you talking about my statement that I look young helping the Chinese defense? Now, only speaking stereotypically, does not apply to the WHOLE race, some of us are youthful looking. But, as I posted just above, those 3 girls in question absolutely DOES not look 16 yrs old. Their facial & body features are more of a 13 yr old.


I agree whole-heartedly! Anyone with a pair of eyes can see these girls are not 16! Compare them to the CHINESE swimmers who are reported as being teenagers, and there is a WORLD of difference.

And I still think it's ridiculous to say we should quit "whining" about it. What, we just roll over and take it when we lose unfairly? What a load! They are CHEATING! And good on Martha for calling them to the carpet.

But, at least two of our gals got the individual gold and silver! U...S....A!!! (nothing like the Olympics to bring out the nationalism!)
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Re: Is ANYONE stupid enough to buy...

Postby edcha » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:11 am

annie89509 wrote:
edcha wrote:
annie89509 wrote:.....
I'll be 53 next month. Many people have said I could pass for 38.


annie, I agree you look great at 52!
BTW, I hate cheating! ... but, don't you think your statement above kinda help the Chinese defense just a little bit? :wink:

HI, edcha. Are you talking about my statement that I look young helping the Chinese defense? Now, only speaking stereotypically, does not apply to the WHOLE race, some of us are youthful looking. But, as I posted just above, those 3 girls in question absolutely DOES not look 16 yrs old. Their facial & body features are more of a 13 yr old.


Of course I know! I'm just trying to pull your leg, annie. :wink: You're sweet! :D :wink:
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:19 pm

Sarah wrote:
hoagiepete wrote:I'm not sure I would disagree that there are some shinanigans going on, but... I sure wish the US Teams wouldn't whine about it. It makes us look like spoiled brats and poor losers.

Yeah I was going to say that... everyone's just mad because China beat us with kids.


Lets just send our 13 year old gymnasts over there to compete instead. I think China would still win in that event though.
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Postby RedWingFan » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:23 pm

The Sushi Hunter wrote:
Sarah wrote:
hoagiepete wrote:I'm not sure I would disagree that there are some shinanigans going on, but... I sure wish the US Teams wouldn't whine about it. It makes us look like spoiled brats and poor losers.

Yeah I was going to say that... everyone's just mad because China beat us with kids.


Lets just send our 13 year old gymnasts over there to compete instead. I think China would still win in that event though.

I thought it'd be hilarious for the US team to have a 2 year old with a leotard and a # on her back walking around with the other American gymnasts. :D
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Postby csiako » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:53 pm

i think they should add weight or height minimum requirements with the age limits
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Postby jrnyjunky » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:14 pm

[Journeyjunky, thanks for the compliment. You are Jill, aren't you, from the PV board? And you met SP, at the WOF.[/quote]

You are very welcome. No I am not Jill, I'm Rhonda from PV, and yes I did meet Steve at the Journey star. One of my best days ever.. :lol:
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Postby Loneman1 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:22 pm

China had a good start with the opening ceremonies, but they are more than likely going to end up looking pretty bad overall with all these problems.
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Postby Sarah » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:52 am

csiako wrote:i think they should add weight or height minimum requirements with the age limits

Midgets won't like that
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Postby (Crazy)Dulce Lady » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:20 am

jrnyjunky wrote:[Journeyjunky, thanks for the compliment. You are Jill, aren't you, from the PV board? And you met SP, at the WOF.


You are very welcome. No I am not Jill, I'm Rhonda from PV, and yes I did meet Steve at the Journey star. One of my best days ever.. :lol:[/quote]

sigh....... 8) that's awesome.
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Postby annie89509 » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:51 am

jrnyjunky wrote:[Journeyjunky, thanks for the compliment. You are Jill, aren't you, from the PV board? And you met SP, at the WOF.


You are very welcome. No I am not Jill, I'm Rhonda from PV, and yes I did meet Steve at the Journey star. One of my best days ever.. :lol:[/quote]

Oh, hi Rhonda, I remember you, too! You had a black&silver outfit on that day, matching Steve's suit perfectly! The photo made you 2 look like the perfect couple. Please post so everyone can see what I'm talking about (if you don't mind).
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