OT - Right Wing: Do as we say, not as we do.

[S2M]

I'd rather discuss this with RUSH fans, but since I have little to work with here, I'll just say......

This is what we SHOULD do over there.....

[Voyager]

I'd rather discuss this with RUSH fans, but since I have little to work with here, I'll just say......

This is what we SHOULD do over there.....

They will just lob one back at us.

[Voyager]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday that if Russia doesn't step back from its "aggressive posture" it will adversely affect U.S.-Russian relations for years.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates says Russia's actions in Georgia threaten its relationship with the U.S.

However, Gates said he did not "see any prospect for the use of military force" by the United States in the conflict involving Russian and Georgian troops within Georgia.

"The United States spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military confrontation with Russia," he said. "I see no reason to change that approach today."

The U.S. military has sent humanitarian relief to Georgia for residents displaced by the fighting. In addition to a flight that landed Wednesday evening, another C-17 flight of relief supplies arrived in Georgia on Thursday. Watch Gates warn Russia to keep roads open »

"The most urgent priority for the U.S. military at this time is to save lives and alleviate suffering," Gates told reporters at the Pentagon.

No additional flights are immediately scheduled until a U.S. military assessment team reports on what is needed. Watch U.S. aid arrive in Tbilisi »

Russia said it launched the military operation Friday to stop a Georgian military crackdown on separatist fighters in the breakaway region of South Ossetia, which is pushing for independence from Georgia.

The conflict quickly spread to parts of Georgia and to Abkhazia, another breakaway region allied with Moscow, Russia.

Gates said his view is that Russia -- principally Prime Minister Vladimir Putin -- "is interested in reasserting the country's great power or superpower status" and "traditional spheres of influence."

"I think that there is an effort to try and redress what they regard as many of the concessions they feel were forced upon them in the 1990s, the early 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union," Gates said.

He said Russia's action was part of the effort to reassert the country's international status, but he said it was done in a negative way.

The conflict has uprooted about 115,000 people, according to the U.N. Human Rights Commission, and there are reports of hundreds and maybe thousands dead.

During the humanitarian operation, Gates said, the United States "expects Russia to ensure that all lines of communication and transport -- including seaports, airports, roads and airspace -- remain open."

"As the president said, we also expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia. And we expect all Russian forces that entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country," he said. iReport.com: Are you reminded of past wars? Do you remember the Cold War?

Gates said that he and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice began a dialogue with Russia last fall to address shared areas of common interest, but "Russia's behavior over the past week has called into question the entire premise of that dialogue and has profound implications for our security relationship going forward."

"The days and months ahead will determine the future course of bilateral relations," he said.

"My personal view is that there needs to be some consequences for the actions that Russia has taken against a sovereign state."

Rice is heading to Tbilisi for talks with the Georgian government.

The Pentagon is reviewing "the entire gamut" of joint military activity with Russia and will make any necessary changes, Gates said.

He noted the canceling of a multinational naval exercise with Russia scheduled for Friday and a U.S.-Canadian-Russian exercise set for later this month.

Defense officials have also told CNN that the U.S. has repositioned some of its intelligence assets to provide the Bush administration with direct information about the conflict in Georgia and Russian military movements. iReport.com: Send video questions for ex-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev

The official would not disclose what type of assets were moved, but it is believed that satellites that were tracking developments in Iraq and Afghanistan were repositioned over the weekend when it became clear the situation in Georgia was escalating.

In the initial days of the Russian-Georgian conflict, the United States did not have its own assessment of the fighting, said the official, who would not speak for attribution because of the sensitivity of the situation.

The United States also has confirmed that about 200 Russian troops are in the city of Gori, about 50 miles northwest of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. Georgian troops retreated from the city three days earlier under heavy fire from the Russians, and most of the residents fled amid the fighting. Watch Russian troops on the road outside Gori »

U.S. officials also said that Russia has moved about 5,000 additional troops into Georgia since the fighting began, bringing its total force in the country to around 15,000 troops.

[7 Wishes]

I'd rather discuss this with RUSH fans, but since I have little to work with here, I'll just say......

This is what we SHOULD do over there.....

Dumbass. Whatever.

I'm not touching this thread.

[X factor]

You just hush! I have one word for you.....



LAME!

Not lame = Ghosts, Inside of Me, House on Fire, I Counted on Love, The Preacher, Rainmaker, The Bells of Saint James

I agree! I'm stayin outta the politics today , but DAMN! This is the last good KANSAS album, imho....don't forget STAND BESIDE ME , a great tune!

Looks like you and me agree on a few things, eh pc?

[conversationpc]

Not lame = Ghosts, Inside of Me, House on Fire, I Counted on Love, The Preacher, Rainmaker, The Bells of Saint James

I agree! I'm stayin outta the politics today , but DAMN! This is the last good KANSAS album, imho....don't forget STAND BESIDE ME , a great tune!

Looks like you and me agree on a few things, eh pc?

This is the last album where Walsh's voice sounded halfway decent still. I do think both "Freaks of Nature" and "Somewhere to Elsewhere" are better, though.

[Voyager]

I agree! I'm stayin outta the politics today , but DAMN!

Darn. How about a good volatile discussion on religion for a change?

[RedWingFan]

I'd be interested in hearing *Laura's take on this. If she still has intenet access that is!

[7 Wishes]

I agree! I'm stayin outta the politics today , but DAMN!

Darn. How about a good volatile discussion on religion for a change?

Do you mean real religion (i.e. Christianity) or fake religions (i.e. Davidianism, Scientology, or Seventh Day Adventism)?

[7 Wishes]

I'd be interested in hearing *Laura's take on this. If she still has intenet access that is!

Let's goad the residing MR queen out of retirement! Where are you, Laura? We miss you!

[Rhiannon]

I'd be interested in hearing *Laura's take on this. If she still has intenet access that is!

Let's goad the residing MR queen out of retirement! Where are you, Laura? We miss you!

She's in beautiful California right now! BJG and I hung out with her this past weekend in Chicago. She misses you all too! She told me as much.

[Eric]

Georgia violated ABSOLUTELY NO United Nations sanctions that I am aware of, did they?

Anyway, from the looks of it, Russia is using this as an opportunity to flex their muscles and exert their influence over neighboring countries. The President of Georgia is one of the few pro-U.S. leaders in that area of the world and has done a ton of good things, especially in cleaning up government corruption. This is a FAR, FAR different situation in almost every way. On one hand, you have Iraq: a war mongering, terrorist supporting, destabilizing force. On the other you have Georgia: a country well on the way towards democracy and a free market economy, willing to give freedom a chance.

I'll just bump this...it says what I was thinking....

[lights1961]

I'd rather discuss this with RUSH fans, but since I have little to work with here, I'll just say......

This is what we SHOULD do over there.....

it shuold have been done to PALISTINE in 1972 AFTER their killing spree in the 72 olympic games and again after the HOSTAGES came home in 1980 from IRAN.



Rick

[hoagiepete]

I am once again nauseated by the hypocrisy of George W. Bush and the GOP. They invade Iraq, a sovereign country that posed no credible threat to the USA or its allies. Now when Russia does the same thing to its neighbor Georgia, they condemn the Russian leadership and command them to retreat. Why the double standard? Does Bush really think the rest of the world is going to take him seriously?

Let's give the Right Wing the benefit of the doubt for a moment and use the debunked excuse that Iraq posed a credible threat to the world community, but Georgia doesn't. That still doesn't hold water. The GOP agenda focuses on policing the world, but only when it comes to bullying smaller countries like Iraq that have weak militaries - not big boys like Russia or China. Iraq invaded its neighbor Kuwait on Bush #1's watch... so we attacked them. Russia does the same to its neighbor Georgia, and they get off with a stern warning. That cannot be labeled anything other than pure hypocrisy.

We cannot keep on policing the world like this, and I hope that it stops with the next president (but don't bet on it if McCain gets elected). If we continue to get involved in the conflicts of other nations whenever a dispute breaks out, one of these times we're going to get in over our head. Bush and the GOP need to focus on the problems within the USA and work to defend us against REAL threats to OUR country. Why is it that the USA is the only country that gets into other nation's business? Why is the Bush administration so arrogant to think that it is our job to be the police officers of the world to begin with? Who gave him that authority?

This comparison and argument is so absurd it doesn't even merit an rebuttal.

[Don]

Anyone remember the early 80's public service commercial with the bald eagle flying over the bear?

[Tomulator]

I am once again nauseated by the hypocrisy of George W. Bush and the GOP.

Oh, it was only Bush and the GOP that voted for the action with nary a democrat vote huh? Wrong!

They invade Iraq, a sovereign country that posed no credible threat to the USA or its allies. Now when Russia does the same thing to its neighbor Georgia, they condemn the Russian leadership and command them to retreat. Why the double standard?

What holy United Nations resolutions have Georgia been told they must meet, much less violated? ZERO. Russia invaded Georgia in what's probably a first step in rebuilding the USSR and robbing the people of Georgia of it's precious freedom, while the US is currently working on a withdrawl date after helping rebuild the nation of Iraq and gov't and giving them that same freedom. Yeah exactly the same thing.

The GOP agenda focuses on policing the world, but only when it comes to bullying smaller countries like Iraq that have weak militaries - not big boys like Russia or China.

Revisionist history. You don't remember hearing all the stories of the vaunted Royal National Guard and how the US coalition would need 10,000 bodybags to take Baghdad?

Iraq invaded its neighbor Kuwait on Bush #1's watch... so we attacked them. Russia does the same to its neighbor Georgia, and they get off with a stern warning. That cannot be labeled anything other than pure hypocrisy.

Oh, Bush uses diplomacy and now you squeal that what we need is some "cowboy" Bush action. This is just the beginning. We've only begun to see how this is going to play out.

If we continue to get involved in the conflicts of other nations whenever a dispute breaks out, one of these times we're going to get in over our head.

Weren't you one that was claiming that we already did that (getting in over our head) in Iraq? War not going bad enough for you to keep claiming that we're getting our clocks cleaned?

Why is the Bush administration so arrogant to think that it is our job to be the police officers of the world to begin with?

Yeah forget the fact that Georgia has it's soldiers shoulder to shoulder with the US in Iraq. When Georgia gets attacked we should then say "it's been nice workin' with ya" and kick their asses to the curb and have nothing to do with them. That's how Liberals treat their friends. God willing the US will NEVER adopt that liberal policy.

Who gave him that authority?:roll:

Firstly the American people. Then the US Congress, Not to mention the US Constitution.

BODY SLAM!!!!!!!

Well said.

[Tomulator]

Yep.....Democrats DID vote to invade Iraq.....based on trumped up intel....made possible by a grant from the Bush Admin.

Wow, that's an "impeachable" accusation. Seems like if it was true the democrat control congress would have no problem getting him impeached and tarring the GOP with it. If it was true of course.

Seems to me that if Simpson was guilty....he'd have been convicted.

and if Ray Lewis was guilty......and so on....

guilty people get off ALL THE TIME.

And do you "get off" on stupidity?

[S2M]

Yep.....Democrats DID vote to invade Iraq.....based on trumped up intel....made possible by a grant from the Bush Admin.

Wow, that's an "impeachable" accusation. Seems like if it was true the democrat control congress would have no problem getting him impeached and tarring the GOP with it. If it was true of course.

Seems to me that if Simpson was guilty....he'd have been convicted.

and if Ray Lewis was guilty......and so on....

guilty people get off ALL THE TIME.

And do you "get off" on stupidity?

Was that called for? I mean, really....

[whirlwind]

What do you think we should have done in the immediate wake of the Georgian invasion, if not treat Russia sternly as we have?

Absolutely nothing. What is China doing about it? What are our allies in Europe doing about it? What is Canada and Mexico doing about it? Why do we have to lead? Why can't we wait and see what other countries do about it?

We don't have enough handcuffs left in our arsenal to do any more policing of the world. It's time for us to mind our own business.

In 1904, President Theodore Roosevelt declared: "Chronic wrongdoing, or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilised society, may ultimately require intervention by some civilised nation, and in the western hemisphere the adherence of the United States to the Monroe Doctrine may force the United States, however reluctantly, in flagrant cases of such wrongdoing or impotence, to the exercise of an international police power."
When Roosevelt wrote those words, the western hemisphere was the only place where the US exercised military hegemony. In the rest of the world, America could count on the Royal Navy to defend "civilised society". Today, America exercises almost as much power everywhere around the world as it once had only in the Caribbean. In fact, it has more power in both relative and absolute terms than any other state in history. Thus, by Roosevelt's logic, the US is obliged to stop "chronic wrongdoing", for the simple reason that nobody else will do the job. That is what the US has been doing for the past decade in places like Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and now Iraq.
Unfortunately a cop's work is never done. Even after Mr Hussein is gone, other tyrannies, such as North Korea and Iran, will continue to threaten world peace. Taking on all of them is a big commitment, but as Kipling warned America, "Ye dare not stoop to less."



Just saying...............

[7 Wishes]

The token Liberals and Democrats on this board stand about as much a chance of getting points across as Muggsy Bogues does to slam-dunk over Shaq. It's pointless.

[Don]

Didn't Rice warn Georgia about a week prior to their actions that we would not support that type of thing happening. When your biggest allie says don't do it, and you don't listen then you have to live with the consequences. Talking shit about your allie not having your back when they clearly explained to you what would be the probable repurcussions of your actions is chicken shit. Fuck Georgia and for that matter fuck the U.N., When have they stopped or deterred anything over the last 10 years. The last time we let the U.N. direct our actions, feeding hungry Somalians transformed into "Ma-alinti Rangers" all because Boutris Boutris Ghali got a hard on over Mohamed Farrah Aidid and decided to make us his henchmen in his revenge plot. When I came back from Mogadishu it was an 180 degrees turn from when I returned from Desert Storm, there were no welcome home signs or Job well done banners. Everybody was trying to figure out how we went from feeding the hungry to becoming the defacto policeman/bully for the United Nations. Let Ukraine and others take note, If we tell you not to do something, don't fucking do it, and if you do it anyway don't bitch that we are such a bad friend when you get you ass kicked.

[conversationpc]

Didn't Rice warn Georgia about a week prior to their actions that we would not support that type of thing happening. When your biggest allie says don't do it, and you don't listen then you have to live with the consequences. Talking shit about your allie not having your back when they clearly explained to you what would be the probable repurcussions of your actions is chicken shit. Fuck Georgia and for that matter fuck the U.N., When have they stopped or deterred anything over the last 10 years. The last time we let the U.N. direct our actions, feeding hungry Somalians transformed into "Ma-alinti Rangers" all because Boutris Boutris Ghali got a hard on over Mohamed Farrah Aidid and decided to make us his henchmen in his revenge plot. When I came back from Mogadishu it was an 180 degrees turn from when I returned from Desert Storm, there were no welcome home signs or Job well done banners. Everybody was trying to figure out how we went from feeding the hungry to becoming the defacto policeman/bully for the United Nations. Let Ukraine and others take note, If we tell you not to do something, don't fucking do it, and if you do it anyway don't bitch that we are such a bad friend when you get you ass kicked.

What was it you are claiming that Georgia did?

[Don]

Georgia went into the South Ossetia, already knowing that we would not be able to back them up on their actions. That part is fine. It's their country. But already knowing where we stood on the issue, they should not turn around and deride us for not being supportive enough of them when we already explained to them that they shouldn't start a fight they can not win. That's sort of what I said, besides my rant against the U.N. which is my personal opinion of course.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washi ... yt&emc=rss

[conversationpc]

Georgia went into the South Ossetia, already knowing that we would not be able to back them up on their actions. That part is fine. It's their country. But already knowing where we stood on the issue, they should not turn around and deride us for not being supportive enough of them when we already explained to them that they shouldn't start a fight they can not win. That's sort of what I said, besides my rant against the U.N. which is my personal opinion of course.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washi ... yt&emc=rss

If I am remembering correctly Russia had been purposely granting citizenship to people in that region so that they could then claim that Georgia was oppressing/killing Russian citizens there. It's an old tactic that the Soviet Union used long ago before they usurped territories like the Baltic states and other areas. I don't blame Georgia one bit. It seems like Russia is getting ready to try to take back some, most, or all of its former territory.

[Don]

Georgia went into the South Ossetia, already knowing that we would not be able to back them up on their actions. That part is fine. It's their country. But already knowing where we stood on the issue, they should not turn around and deride us for not being supportive enough of them when we already explained to them that they shouldn't start a fight they can not win. That's sort of what I said, besides my rant against the U.N. which is my personal opinion of course.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washi ... yt&emc=rss

If I am remembering correctly Russia had been purposely granting citizenship to people in that region so that they could then claim that Georgia was oppressing/killing Russian citizens there. It's an old tactic that the Soviet Union used long ago before they usurped territories like the Baltic states and other areas. I don't blame Georgia one bit. It seems like Russia is getting ready to try to take back some, most, or all of its former territory.

Like I said Georgia has every right to protect their own country. BUT I have a problem with any actions that might put U.S. troops in the grinder, especially when we warned the allie that they were biting off more than they could chew. And Georgia had to have known that they were going to get their asses handed to them, but to expect us to show up like a knight on a white horse is not fair. Europe should have troops hitting the ground there before anyone else. The E.U.'s economic interests are at stake more than anyone elses.

[conversationpc]

Like I said Georgia has every right to protect their own country. BUT I have a problem with any actions that might put U.S. troops in the grinder, especially when we warned the allie that they were biting off more than they could chew. And Georgia had to have known that they were going to get their asses handed to them, but to expect us to show up like a knight on a white horse is not fair. Europe should have troops hitting the ground there before anyone else. The E.U.'s economic interests are at stake more than anyone elses.

I don't think the Georgian president is dumb enough to think that we would come in there with guns blazing. He knows that we are extended too far already in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Don]

Like I said Georgia has every right to protect their own country. BUT I have a problem with any actions that might put U.S. troops in the grinder, especially when we warned the allie that they were biting off more than they could chew. And Georgia had to have known that they were going to get their asses handed to them, but to expect us to show up like a knight on a white horse is not fair. Europe should have troops hitting the ground there before anyone else. The E.U.'s economic interests are at stake more than anyone elses.

I don't think the Georgian president is dumb enough to think that we would come in there with guns blazing. He knows that we are extended too far already in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That's what baffles me. Maybe he thought we had more pull with Russia and he underestimated Russia's Stubbornness to back down once we started barking.

[Calbear94]

For anyone who is worried about Russia's intentions, please consider the effect that putting missile bases in Eastern Europe would have. This would only embrazen the Russian hardliners and galvanize popular support for nationalist policies.

[Calbear94]

Like I said Georgia has every right to protect their own country. BUT I have a problem with any actions that might put U.S. troops in the grinder, especially when we warned the allie that they were biting off more than they could chew. And Georgia had to have known that they were going to get their asses handed to them, but to expect us to show up like a knight on a white horse is not fair. Europe should have troops hitting the ground there before anyone else. The E.U.'s economic interests are at stake more than anyone elses.

I don't think the Georgian president is dumb enough to think that we would come in there with guns blazing. He knows that we are extended too far already in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That's what baffles me. Maybe he thought we had more pull with Russia and he underestimated Russia's Stubbornness to back down once we started barking.

Every democratic country has some issues related to economic, political, and social equality. In Georgia's case, there are unresolved tensions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Is it really any coincidence that Russia would intervene at a time when the price of oil is high, and the U.S. foreign policy position has been eroded?

[7 Wishes]

Calbear, you know that nothing matters unless the United States' interests are preserved. Screw Poland and any breakaway republics. The world opinion be damned.