Herbie Herbert On What Jon Cain Was Like From Day One...

[annie89509]

edited

[Art Vandelay]

1. Anyone can play anything on tour
2. The Storm played Journey tunes
3. Perry's tour was in no way advertised as being related to a Journey tour in any way. And anyone who bought a ticket to the show and didn't expect to hear a Journey song is a fool.

Swing and a miss, Daniel!

Keep telling yourself you're making sense, but you're not. Steve Perry took his "band" on the road and toured singing predominantly Journey songs without the guys that waited almost a decade for him. The backbone of Journey is Schon, Perry and Cain. No one gives a shit if The Storm played a song or two. Besides, they had 3 past and present members of Journey, including a former vocalist so of course they're gonna play some Journey. Hell, he didn't even have the decency to face Jonathan Cain when he came to one of the shows to get some answers.

It was only after they decided to move because of his unwillingness to commit to the band that he *suddenly* wanted back in. But, like Herbie said, he never intended to tour, and history has proven as much. It was simply a ploy to try and destroy what was left of the band and eliminate Herbie Herbert, the one man that had the vision and drive to rebuild them.

It's all right there for everyone to see. The guy didn't want to be in Journey, toured alone, then wanted back in when they were forced to find a new vocalist, but then did the minimum amount of work and bailed ... again. You can try to spin the facts, but they're not gonna change.

The problem is, that's your interpretation of the story. Theater of the mind, dude.

[brywool]

I did see a Hi~Infi show in OKC ...geez, I think it was at the Myriad!!
I do not remember it being bigger than Escape and I saw that 2wice.
I also can't remember why I saw the Hi~infi show just once, as it's one of my
top 10 LP's of all time ...really good show and I sat/stood in front of ric~rac!!

I saw the HiFi show in Seattle. To this date, it's the only concert I ever bailed early on. BORING.
Regarding Styx- They played two sold out shows (possibly 3, but I think 2) in Seattle in 81. I saw both.
Styx was huge that year. In fact, I think THEY got the gallup poll thingy in 81 and Journey did in 83.
Journey I believe did one show at the Tacoma dome in 83, but then I think their tour opened up and they did bigger biz.
I remember that show, Perry seemed incredibly subdued. The Escape show was amazingly good, but I think
it also was one show, though I might be wrong on that.

[annie89509]

Jana...., I was not referring to the period after ROR. I believe Steve told Neal/Jon he could not/did not want to go on to a 2nd leg of the tour (after their last show in Alaska). They agreed to put the band on hold, and Neal/Jon went on to do other things. True, nobody expected the “hold” to last 10 yrs.

And I am certainly not passing judgment on anyone’s decision regarding the direction of band –it’s none of my business. I was only referring to the slant of disparaging remarks made against SP during the SA era…in particular, 1998-2005. Everything that has been said is archived and online for all to read—if one is inclined to research. As a new Journey-come-lately fan in 2005, I was shocked by the disdain toward their former lead singer. Yet, SP always seemed to take the high road.

That's what I meant by "they all turned on him." All those years SP was in the band, not one bad word against him, almost treated like a king... all indications were SP could be a dickhead, but everyone deferred to him. I guess they all knew where their bread is buttered. As soon as the messiah was gone, it's open season attack mode.

[NoMoreTails]

How did they turn on him? After ROR, they never said a word and waited almost ten years for him. After the TBF fiasco, all they wanted to do was move on after waiting well over a year for him. I guess they should have kept on waiting until, what, now, and nothing?

After ROR they waited patiently for almost 10 years and he rewarded them by touring without the band. Then, seeing that he cracked the stone and went on without them, they put together their own new lineup and were ready to tour and record when he suddenly "felt like being in Journey again." And then he fucked them again. Pretty classy guy.

They all toured in one fashion or another BEFORE he toured in '94. Nice try, though!

I don't get your point here, Perry never had a problem with them moving on with Bad English as far as we know....and himself even suggested that they move on under a different name in '98. And as SJ said they didn't perform Journey songs.
Of course from '98 on they have performed Journey songs, as they are JOURNEY songs.

[Michigan Girl]

How did they turn on him? After ROR, they never said a word and waited almost ten years for him. After the TBF fiasco, all they wanted to do was move on after waiting well over a year for him. I guess they should have kept on waiting until, what, now, and nothing?

After ROR they waited patiently for almost 10 years and he rewarded them by touring without the band. Then, seeing that he cracked the stone and went on without them, they put together their own new lineup and were ready to tour and record when he suddenly "felt like being in Journey again." And then he fucked them again. Pretty classy guy.

They all toured in one fashion or another BEFORE he toured in '94. Nice try, though!

I don't get your point here, Perry never had a problem with them moving on with Bad English as far as we know....and himself even suggested that they move on under a different name in '98. And as SJ they didn't perform Journey songs.
Of course from '98 on they have performed Journey songs, as they are JOURNEY songs.

huh!?!

[NoMoreTails]

How did they turn on him? After ROR, they never said a word and waited almost ten years for him. After the TBF fiasco, all they wanted to do was move on after waiting well over a year for him. I guess they should have kept on waiting until, what, now, and nothing?

After ROR they waited patiently for almost 10 years and he rewarded them by touring without the band. Then, seeing that he cracked the stone and went on without them, they put together their own new lineup and were ready to tour and record when he suddenly "felt like being in Journey again." And then he fucked them again. Pretty classy guy.

They all toured in one fashion or another BEFORE he toured in '94. Nice try, though!

I don't get your point here, Perry never had a problem with them moving on with Bad English as far as we know....and himself even suggested that they move on under a different name in '98. And as SJ said they didn't perform Journey songs.
Of course from '98 on they have performed Journey songs, as they are JOURNEY songs.

huh!?!

Fixed.

[Art Vandelay]

How did they turn on him? After ROR, they never said a word and waited almost ten years for him. After the TBF fiasco, all they wanted to do was move on after waiting well over a year for him. I guess they should have kept on waiting until, what, now, and nothing?

After ROR they waited patiently for almost 10 years and he rewarded them by touring without the band. Then, seeing that he cracked the stone and went on without them, they put together their own new lineup and were ready to tour and record when he suddenly "felt like being in Journey again." And then he fucked them again. Pretty classy guy.

They all toured in one fashion or another BEFORE he toured in '94. Nice try, though!

I don't get your point here, Perry never had a problem with them moving on with Bad English as far as we know....and himself even suggested that they move on under a different name in '98. And as SJ said they didn't perform Journey songs.
Of course from '98 on they have performed Journey songs, as they are JOURNEY songs.

huh!?!

Fixed.

Now that I've had my morning coffee, let me break down my debate with SJ step by step. My debate is comparing facts vs. interpreting what one reads on the internet, making assumptions and preaching it as gospel. Yes, this is a forum and it's all cool (and SJ knows this). So here we go...

1. SJ states "after ROR they waited patiently for almost 10 years and he rewarded them by touring without the band."
Fact #1 - While Journey was 'on hold' for 10 years, every musician except for Perry were still recording and touring, making a living in their business (Bad English, Hardline, Storm, Vital Information, Steps Ahead). So they weren't sitting around with their thumbs up their asses waiting for work. In SJ's mind, it may not have been the work that they wanted. All of these tours went on PRIOR to Perry touring in 94.
Fact #2 - Perry's tour was in support of his solo CD, using the musicians that he recorded with. Just like Bad English, The Storm and Vital Information did.

2. SJ debated that the other bands didn't sing Journey songs on their tours.
Fact - Ok, and? Anybody can sing anything on tour. The Storm did play a few Journey songs because they had a voice that was able to do so.

3. SJ also debated that Perry's shows were mostly Journey songs.
Fact - Of course. Why wouldn't you expect to hear the VOICE of Journey sing the songs he was most famous for? Don Henley, McCartney, Robert Plant, Lou Gramm, Stevie Nicks, David Lee Roth, Sammy Hagar, Peter Cetera and many others have performed material from their former bands in their solo shows. Why should Perry get crucified for this? And in no way was this tour advertised or sold as a Journey tour. It was to support the Medicine CD. I vividly recall the radio promos for the Tower Theater show, and they were filled equally with Journey and Medicine material.

4. SJ stated "then, seeing that he cracked the stone and went on without them, they put together their own new lineup and were ready to tour and record when he suddenly "felt like being in Journey again."
Unless you can show a date-by-date comparison of the proposed 'new' Journey's plans (circa 1993) vs. Perry's plans, SJ's answer is all assumption.

Ok, I've wasted way too much time on this. SJ knows where I'm coming from with this, whether he agrees or not. He has his methods of posting, and I have mine. Just saying, you can't argue facts vs. scenarios that you build up based on what you read.

[NoMoreTails]

Ok, I've wasted way too much time on this. .

I agree, this was pointless. You know he was saying they were waiting on him to be ready to do Journey again, not that they did nothing in the meantime.

[SF-Dano]

Giving opinion and speculating about our favorites are what fans do. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t bother visiting fan forums. As long as opinions are not vindictive or expressed as fact – SJ!? – discussions (positive/negative/humorous) help us relate to each other and to the band.

Jeremey’s post on power struggle between HH and SP is very informative, in which only fans of this forum have explored in detail from time to time over the years. SP alluded to “business that just didn’t seem right” and Neal chimed in with “rotweiller took a big chunk” in the following unedited, uncensored interview for radio (ROR promo). Found and uploaded the audio to share. Listen carefully to what brought SP back to Journey (around the 20:00 mark):

http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZGJjW ... Z2xjR0E9PQ

Notice all songs pre-ROR were trademarked as “Weed High–Nightmare Productions” (HH’s company). ROR and after…separate publishing notation(s) for each writer of the song(s).

Also, in that scathing interview referred by the opening post, remember Herbie relating typical band meeting where everyone (each with his own lawyer) sat in long conference table hashing things over? Herbie sat on one end, and Steve the other. Only 2 spoke, their voices shouting louder and louder, while all the rest of the guys sitting in the middle across from each other, turned their heads from side to side, in synchronized fashion like in tennis. Hilarious mental image…

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him.

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

[Jana]

Giving opinion and speculating about our favorites are what fans do. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t bother visiting fan forums. As long as opinions are not vindictive or expressed as fact – SJ!? – discussions (positive/negative/humorous) help us relate to each other and to the band.

Jeremey’s post on power struggle between HH and SP is very informative, in which only fans of this forum have explored in detail from time to time over the years. SP alluded to “business that just didn’t seem right” and Neal chimed in with “rotweiller took a big chunk” in the following unedited, uncensored interview for radio (ROR promo). Found and uploaded the audio to share. Listen carefully to what brought SP back to Journey (around the 20:00 mark):

http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZGJjW ... Z2xjR0E9PQ

Notice all songs pre-ROR were trademarked as “Weed High–Nightmare Productions” (HH’s company). ROR and after…separate publishing notation(s) for each writer of the song(s).

Also, in that scathing interview referred by the opening post, remember Herbie relating typical band meeting where everyone (each with his own lawyer) sat in long conference table hashing things over? Herbie sat on one end, and Steve the other. Only 2 spoke, their voices shouting louder and louder, while all the rest of the guys sitting in the middle across from each other, turned their heads from side to side, in synchronized fashion like in tennis. Hilarious mental image…

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him.

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Bingo.

[Michigan Girl]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?!
Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

[portland]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?!
Also, let us not forget SS said, "No Perry, No Thanks" that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I was going to bring this up....but I guess I am at the point of you can't change some peoples minds about their view of what happened.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall....

[steveo777]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?!
Also, let us not forget SS said, "No Perry, No Thanks" that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I was going to bring this up....but I guess I am at the point of you can't change some peoples minds about their view of what happened.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall....

Please don't do this too much more.....it's starting to show up in your posts.

[portland]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?!
Also, let us not forget SS said, "No Perry, No Thanks" that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I was going to bring this up....but I guess I am at the point of you can't change some peoples minds about their view of what happened.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall....

Please don't do this too much more.....it's starting to show up in your posts.

STFU.....Better??

[Michigan Girl]

I was going to bring this up....but I guess I am at the point of you can't change some peoples minds about their view of what happened.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall....

Can they change yours?!?!

[steveo777]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?!
Also, let us not forget SS said, "No Perry, No Thanks" that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I was going to bring this up....but I guess I am at the point of you can't change some peoples minds about their view of what happened.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall....

Please don't do this too much more.....it's starting to show up in your posts.

STFU.....Better??

Aren't you the little meanie today.

[Saint John]

Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I think you're the one spinning it. That statement was in no way a defense of the man or his character but, rather, a total disinterest in the formation of a new band ... again. I think after the the ROR firing, the ensuing long layoff, Rolie/Chalfant thing dissolved (thanks to a certain someone) and then the Perry lineup dissolving (again due to a certain someone), Smith was just tired of having his time wasted. Besides, he's long been on record as saying that jazz is his first love. The "No Perry ... " comment is being completely taken out of context. Perry was just a means to a quick financial end.

[SF-Dano]

I believe SP had the leverage to win all these power struggles, with full support of his bandmates. Everything would have been fine had his voice held up and the band stayed intact. When the band fell apart, they all turned on him[/b].

While I agree with some of what you say here, I have to completely disagree on the last couple sentences. It appears is if we have forgeten that it was Perry's idea and action to fire Steve Smith and Ross Valory during ROR (yes with Schon and Friga's reluctant concession). I would say in that act, Perry was the one who turned on his bandmates. This band did not just fall apart. There were major tensions and a power struggle obviously, but the way I see it, Steve Perry was the impetus for this band breaking up. No matter how much revisionist history the fans or those with slight connections to the band try to create.

Have we also forgotten that Perry has admitted the err of his way. concerning the firings?!?! Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

How does Perry admitting it was a mistake more than 10 years later change the fact of the actions that he did. Yes, he may have had a change of heart later in life, but that doesn't change the fact of what he wanted and DID back then.

Regarding Smith's comment, again more than 10 years later. He had by the time of this quote established himslef as a highly regarded and sought after jazz muscian. This was not the case back in the ROR days. I never disputed that time heals wounds and changes perspectives. But the actions were done and that has to be taken into account when discussing the break up of this band.

[Michigan Girl]

Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I think you're the one spinning it. That statement was in no way a defense of the man or his character but, rather, a total disinterest in the formation of a new band ... again. I think after the the ROR firing, the ensuing long layoff, Rolie/Chalfant thing dissolved (thanks to a certain someone) and then the Perry lineup dissolving (again due to a certain someone), Smith was just tired of having his time wasted. Besides, he's long been on record as saying that jazz is his first love. The "No Perry ... " comment is being completely taken out of context. Perry was just a means to a quick financial end.

You're putting words in my mouth, Boris Badenov !! I never said anything about character ...I believe it had everything to
do w/his view on the future success of the band!!

[Art Vandelay]

Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I think you're the one spinning it. That statement was in no way a defense of the man or his character but, rather, a total disinterest in the formation of a new band ... again. I think after the the ROR firing, the ensuing long layoff, Rolie/Chalfant thing dissolved (thanks to a certain someone) and then the Perry lineup dissolving (again due to a certain someone), Smith was just tired of having his time wasted. Besides, he's long been on record as saying that jazz is his first love. The "No Perry ... " comment is being completely taken out of context. Perry was just a means to a quick financial end.

I also know that Smith wasn't all that big on the Storm project. Can't recall where I read it, but I did read in an interview (pre-internet BTW) that he wasn't all that into that gig or going back to the rock scene. Hence no Steve Smith on the Storm tour or follow-up CD.

[Saint John]

Also, let us not forget SS said, No Perry, No Thanks that speaks volumes raaaahhht there, no matter how
we want to spin it!!

I think you're the one spinning it. That statement was in no way a defense of the man or his character but, rather, a total disinterest in the formation of a new band ... again. I think after the the ROR firing, the ensuing long layoff, Rolie/Chalfant thing dissolved (thanks to a certain someone) and then the Perry lineup dissolving (again due to a certain someone), Smith was just tired of having his time wasted. Besides, he's long been on record as saying that jazz is his first love. The "No Perry ... " comment is being completely taken out of context. Perry was just a means to a quick financial end.

You're putting words in my mouth, Boris Badenov !! I never said anything about character ...I believe it had everything to
do w/his view on the future success of the band!!

Apologies for the misinterpretation, MG. We're in agreement here.

Sincerely,

Boris Badenov

[Michigan Girl]

Regarding Smith's comment, again more than 10 years later. He had by the time of this quote established himslef as a highly regarded and sought after jazz muscian. This was not the case back in the ROR days. I never disputed that time heals wounds and changes perspectives. But the actions were done and that has to be taken into account when discussing the break up of this band.

Oh, ok, yes, I see ...but time does not heal
all wounds ...Neal is a walking, talking example of a bitter old man!!


Boris, you're forgiven, Dahlink, but I feel temps rising ^^^^...

[Jana]

Perry was an asshole.
Neal was an asshole.
Jon was an asshole.

..... at times, all of them.

But two of those men still wanted Journey to be together.

One of those men really was ready to move on once he did Street Talk and wanted to do another solo album, but listened to his mother, who was the one that wanted him to go back and do another Journey album. Her heart was in it, not necessarily his, as evidenced by how he was totally disconnected from the band on the tour and how he fired Smitty and Ross.

It's not right or wrong, but facts are facts, Perry didn't really care about Journey much anymore. He wanted a solo career. And later, after 97, didn't even want that or maybe lost his voice. I don't know.

[Kilaya]

Does this much passionate chatter go on between fans of other groups that break up?

PS for those of you who are saying right now "Who the hell is this chick?" I am new to posting. I have been reading the boards for quite some time. I hope in time to be loved/hated by y'all as much as you all love/hate each other Although even with the sharp tongues sometimes I am betting you all are love each other to death

Take care

[FinnFreak]

Does this much passionate chatter go on between fans of other groups that break up?

PS for those of you who are saying right now "Who the hell is this chick?" I am new to posting. I have been reading the boards for quite some time. I hope in time to be loved/hated by y'all as much as you all love/hate each other Although even with the sharp tongues sometimes I am betting you all are love each other to death

Take care

Now, that was nice...


John -

[journeyrock]

Regarding Smith's comment, again more than 10 years later. He had by the time of this quote established himslef as a highly regarded and sought after jazz muscian. This was not the case back in the ROR days. I never disputed that time heals wounds and changes perspectives. But the actions were done and that has to be taken into account when discussing the break up of this band.

Oh, ok, yes, I see ...but time does not heal
all wounds ...Neal is a walking, talking example of a bitter old man!!
Boris, you're forgiven, Dahlink, but I feel temps rising ^^^^...

I guess Herbie taught his son a great deal.!