Should the pledge be changed?

[S2M]

I didn't say you shouldn't be kind to people....I just think there is no room for altruism in the world. One who believes in altruism is basically saying, 'I can't make it on my own, help me.' And worse, for the person being roped into the serving - it is basically saying that my needs do not matter, I'm living solely to serve others...that is NOT acceptable. Any rational person would see the problem here. Altruism preaches self-sacrifice. I believe that no person should sacrifice others for himself, or sacrifice himself for others(and so did Ayn Rand). Selfishness is a virtue.

I have a question for you Ginger....Is there any instance where you would permit lying? Everybody lies, and everybody would lie. People are inherently flawed. Some people need religion to keep them in line, some people need the military, and others do not need either....

In MY opinion, religion is for the weak-minded. I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's good points. But on the whole, I don't have much use for it. I don't begrudge those who are devout. I just look at them in a different way. Every religious person I've ever known 'condones' lying....and by condones, I mean doesn't mind doing it....I find most christians are hypocrites. Just my opinion.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

. People are inherently flawed.

altruism = any action taken by a person must also bring benefit to others, therefore it is right to force obligations onto others, as opposed to ethical individualism, which states the individual's main obligation is to live for his own benefit and the only obligations that he is required to keep are those which he has chosen for himself.

I agree with you that altruism is wrong but I dont think you can believe that people are inherently flawed and oppose altruism?. The notion that people are inhently flawed
(and need to be forced in to obligation) is one of the premises that those who argue for altruism take. You cant believe that people are inherently flawed and support a ethical individualism.

[S2M]

. People are inherently flawed.

altruism = any action taken by a person must also bring benefit to others, therefore it is right to force obligations onto others, as opposed to ethical individualism, which states the individual's main obligation is to live for his own benefit and the only obligations that he is required to keep are those which he has chosen for himself.

I agree with you that altruism is wrong but I dont think you can believe that people are inherently flawed and oppose altruism?. The notion that people are inhently flawed
(and need to be forced in to obligation) is one of the premises that those who argue for altruism take. You cant believe that people are inherently flawed and support a ethical individualism.

I most certainly can...I didn't say flawed in what way. The biggest flaw that man can get drawn into is irrationality, and this flaw LEADS to living an altruistic life....a flaw, mind you, that also leads to the belief that an invisible sky wizard rules one's life....Religion = Altruism. God is altruism.
The church teaches altruism. It wants people to be needy, and wanting help. It needs it's flock to be irrational in order for it to work it's controlling magic. A rational persons needs nothing. A religious person NEEDS the wizard. I'll go one step further. If you want to tell me 'god' is just a really kind, and generous philosophy that people should live their lives by - fine...I can talk myself(maybe) into sort of, kind of believing that. It's when people try to mystify these concepts that I lose all hearing.

[parfait]

Foreigners and Atheists have fucked all this up. America is moving away from a country of faith with great values and moral fiber.
Liberal butt fuckers!

Morality isn't based on religion....I don't know where everyone got the idea that being non-religious automatically means one is immoral.

However, religion is based in morality. Big difference. And the last time I took inventory, more people have been MURDERED in the name of moral religion, then all the non-religious acts COMBINED.

Actually, the LONE thing that is, and has ruined this country is altruism. The concept of altruism is not only illogical from a reason standpoint, but it presupposes that self-sacrifice is the highest moral duty. If everyone took care of themselves, and lived rationally, and had a damn purpose - there wouldn't be the need to serve others, at the expense of his own needs and wants.

S2M ever think that people who murder in "God's" name are not his people anyway? It is a sin to murder. It is also a sin to not love your neighbor. How about turn the other cheek? Seems like they don't know God at all to me.
We are moving away from a world of people who truly live by God's principles.

So how is the world getting? So much better every day, right? How about young people? Are they so much better off not respecting authority or having manners? How about our society? People who stand on top of counters and throw stuff at workers for getting their orders wrong, people who laugh when someone runs someone down in a car in a parking lot, people who beat people up for 5 minutes of fame on youtube.

How is this working for you? Regardless of your wanting to not believe in God or not, which by the way I respect your right, having people who believe it is wrong to do the wrong thing around you, isn't as bad as you make it out. People who believe in non violence and kindness don't make bad neighbors, regardless of how delusional you think they are.

You as a teacher should at least know that the Pledge of Allegiance was "set up" by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted in 1942. Under God was added ten years later.

The world is getting better as a matter of fact. Crime rate has steeply decreased in the last two decades. More people are getting an education. Poverty is decreasing in most developing countries. Even the death by AIDS is decreasing. Keep in mind that your interpretation of the Bible isn't the necessary right one. One can easily make the case that The Bible promotes slavery, homophobia and murder (see someone doing working on a Sunday - kill the blasphemer). The US is secular, founded my founding fathers which were mostly deists. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" isn't mentioned once in the Constitution.

Science belongs in the science class. Does God belong anywhere else than in the theology class? Lets ask Lil Wayne.



Alright.

[conversationpc]

You as a teacher should at least know that the Pledge of Allegiance was "set up" by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted in 1942. Under God was added ten years later.

Yes, we know...We've had that discussion here before.

The world is getting better as a matter of fact. Crime rate has steeply decreased in the last two decades. More people are getting an education. Poverty is decreasing in most developing countries. Even the death by AIDS is decreasing. Keep in mind that your interpretation of the Bible isn't the necessary right one. One can easily make the case that The Bible promotes slavery, homophobia and murder (see someone doing working on a Sunday - kill the blasphemer). The US is secular, founded my founding fathers which were mostly deists. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" isn't mentioned once in the Constitution.

Perhaps not in the Constitution but the lack of a mention of God there doesn't decrease what the same founding fathers said about God elsewhere. There are abundant quotes from them concerning their faith in God and, though many of them were deists, there were also many who were not and had faith in a personal God and, in many cases, Jesus Christ.

[cinkidd]

Here we go again. I've been dealing with this subject for about 25yrs now. For me the fervor started back in high school in Douglasville, GA back in 86 or was it 87, either way, we had a band member who did not want to say a prayer before our football team took to the field to play. So he got his father to sue Douglas County High School and the school board (this was reported at the time to be the first lawsuit of this type, not sure if it was/is) and we had TONS of new crews swarming the school to get reactions from the students. Well, guess who got on with his opinions, yep it was me. They were suing to get the prayer stopped and to also no longer pledge allegiance to the flag as well.

Here is basically what I said at the time:
No, this is wrong, it is a shame for one person to ruin it for everybody else who wants to participate. Once you start forcing changes to the pledge of allegiance or changing the words, then there is no meaning behind it anymore. Kids grow up with the American spirit in part to pledging allegiance to the flag everyday (not sure if it is still done today or not) and once you start changing it where do you stop. As for the prayer part why should he cause all of us who want to pray for a good game and a safe one be forced to stop due to one person.

BTW I was already in the U.S. Army reserves at this time doing a split option training between my junior and senior years of high school and is part of the reason why I sounded mature beyond my meager years at the time.

Spock had it right: The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one.

Time to stop this particular madness. If you don't wish to say those words in the pledge of allegiance then don't, if you worship another deity then sub that deity's name. If you don't want to bow your head and pray then don't, either wait till the prayer is over or don't go or participate in events that there is prayer at.

The solution is simple stupid and too many of the simple and stupid are making it hard, costly, and unbearable for the rest of us. We need to stand up and continue to fight for our freedoms that we have in this country and stop allowing those who are in the minority to control the rest of us because we don't want to cause a scene or come off as bullish. I have just as much right to do the pledge of allegiance the way it was written as a person does who wants it changed, and the person who wants it changed should be the once who alters the way it is said by them.

Leave the pledge alone.

Remember this country was in large majority founded by and for people seeking religious freedom and they did a damn good job. It is only recently that we are fucking up our legacy.

Rich the Good Guy

[Glenn]

Leave it in and leave it alone

[artist4perry]

I didn't say you shouldn't be kind to people....I just think there is no room for altruism in the world. One who believes in altruism is basically saying, 'I can't make it on my own, help me.' And worse, for the person being roped into the serving - it is basically saying that my needs do not matter, I'm living solely to serve others...that is NOT acceptable. Any rational person would see the problem here. Altruism preaches self-sacrifice. I believe that no person should sacrifice others for himself, or sacrifice himself for others(and so did Ayn Rand). Selfishness is a virtue.

I have a question for you Ginger....Is there any instance where you would permit lying? Everybody lies, and everybody would lie. People are inherently flawed. Some people need religion to keep them in line, some people need the military, and others do not need either....

In MY opinion, religion is for the weak-minded. I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's good points. But on the whole, I don't have much use for it. I don't begrudge those who are devout. I just look at them in a different way. Every religious person I've ever known 'condones' lying....and by condones, I mean doesn't mind doing it....I find most christians are hypocrites. Just my opinion.

I don't condone lying. But your confusing making a mistake, messing up, being human with being a hypocrite. The bible teaches for all have sinned and have come short of the Glory of God. So what that says is none of us will be perfect. We are striving to be better people, but we are not perfect. I am the first to state I am the most imperfect person you will find. I don't always do things perfectly.

Question is, do you? Are you perfect? Do you find me to be ready to murder in the name of my God? Do you live in fear of me? I would hope not. I am far from perfect, and only Christ was perfect. Yes people are flawed. God knows this. That is why we have to ask for forgiveness, and strive to better ourselves.



I really don't understand why it is such a bother to you. Seriously if I met both of you I would love to sit down to dinner and a cup of coffee with you. I just don't get having a problem with me over my spiritual beliefs. If they make me strong and help me be a better person why sweat it?

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

As for my serving nature, if you were in trouble and I could lend a hand I would. You don't have to do a thing my way. Try being a little less selfish and you will see how wonderful it is to help someone in need.

[artist4perry]

Foreigners and Atheists have fucked all this up. America is moving away from a country of faith with great values and moral fiber.
Liberal butt fuckers!

Morality isn't based on religion....I don't know where everyone got the idea that being non-religious automatically means one is immoral.

However, religion is based in morality. Big difference. And the last time I took inventory, more people have been MURDERED in the name of moral religion, then all the non-religious acts COMBINED.

Actually, the LONE thing that is, and has ruined this country is altruism. The concept of altruism is not only illogical from a reason standpoint, but it presupposes that self-sacrifice is the highest moral duty. If everyone took care of themselves, and lived rationally, and had a damn purpose - there wouldn't be the need to serve others, at the expense of his own needs and wants.

S2M ever think that people who murder in "God's" name are not his people anyway? It is a sin to murder. It is also a sin to not love your neighbor. How about turn the other cheek? Seems like they don't know God at all to me.
We are moving away from a world of people who truly live by God's principles.

So how is the world getting? So much better every day, right? How about young people? Are they so much better off not respecting authority or having manners? How about our society? People who stand on top of counters and throw stuff at workers for getting their orders wrong, people who laugh when someone runs someone down in a car in a parking lot, people who beat people up for 5 minutes of fame on youtube.

How is this working for you? Regardless of your wanting to not believe in God or not, which by the way I respect your right, having people who believe it is wrong to do the wrong thing around you, isn't as bad as you make it out. People who believe in non violence and kindness don't make bad neighbors, regardless of how delusional you think they are.

You as a teacher should at least know that the Pledge of Allegiance was "set up" by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted in 1942. Under God was added ten years later.

The world is getting better as a matter of fact. Crime rate has steeply decreased in the last two decades. More people are getting an education. Poverty is decreasing in most developing countries. Even the death by AIDS is decreasing. Keep in mind that your interpretation of the Bible isn't the necessary right one. One can easily make the case that The Bible promotes slavery, homophobia and murder (see someone doing working on a Sunday - kill the blasphemer). The US is secular, founded my founding fathers which were mostly deists. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" isn't mentioned once in the Constitution.

Science belongs in the science class. Does God belong anywhere else than in the theology class? Lets ask Lil Wayne.



Alright.

Your Founding Fathers? I thought you were from France? So basicly you don't even have a dog in this fight. LOL!

[conversationpc]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

[S2M]

I never said it was a bother, Ginger. I just don't agree with religion's POV. I don't believe in Kant's Social Contract, and I don't believe in the OBLIGATION to help people in need. If someone wants to help a person in need, I will not stop that person. Furthermore, if I want to help another, I will...However, I will not feel obligated to lend a hand.

And btw, the only reason why 'god' was invented as perfect is because mankind realized that they, themselves, were not perfect - and couldn't get over the that fact....they couldn't come to grips with an imperfect race being the top of the chain, so they made up a perfect 'father figure'.

As far as confusing mistakes, messing up, and being human with being a hypocrite? I am not doing that at all....I'm merely saying that I have known some pretty sketchy characters that claimed they were christians. Individuals who would lie, cheat, steal, and whatnot.

Another thing that's been on my mind about something someone said in this thread....the thing about one person having an objection with something and ruining it for everyone else who doesn't object to said issue. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one

And before I give my example, i want to preface it by saying that it IS indeed the same principle, and just as relevant....

You work in an office. And for the past couple of months there has been some pretty nasty, dirty jokes flying around. Not about you, but within earshot. So you go to the powers that be and ask for this kind of stuff to cease....should you have that right? You are ONE person, and 9 people are enjoying the dirty jokes....based on the replies here, that person would have to put up with the dirty jokes.

[S2M]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

[parfait]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

I quote from a study (regarding religion's impact on society) published in Journal of Religion and Society, a US scientific journal:

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies". Journal of Religion and Society. Vol. 7

One cannot point to any decent points in history where atheism was the motivator, where as one can point to a multitude of cases where religion, be it Christianity, Islam or whatever has been the motivator for murder, discrimination and oppression. I know you'll whine about communism and nazism, neither of which has atheism been the motivation behind it. Hitler based most of his ideas around Christian antisemitism, especially Martin Luther. On the other hand; Stalin didn't kill millions because of his unrelenting skepticism, but because a central part of the communist dogma is to surrender yourself to your leader. All other affiliations, whether national, political, or ideological were distractions that would eventually lead to the destruction of the system. In fact, communism resembles far more closely religious fanaticism than Western secular ideals.

Religion, with its all-knowing god, is inherently a dividing force. As long as people believe in a vengeful and demanding god who works above and beyond human reason, religion will always be a potential tool for evil.

[artist4perry]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog? LOL Now the dog didn't want them to kill in his name now did he? Nor does God. Because someone in the name of anything kills does not mean the person they do it in the name of is O.K. with that. The very teachings of God find it abhorrent. You are pointing to evil people using an excuse to do evil.

S2M seriously, I see what your saying but really if you think the reality of it is it so hard to put up with the saying of something you don't believe in so much that you would expect our strapped government billions to remove it? Seems silly to me. Just when you say the pledge leave out the name God if it bugs you.

I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, druids, Jews, Hindus, Mennonites.......and the lists go on. I have a problem with evil people period. And if you go about your life giving or not that is your choice. I have no problem with you not agreeing with me in the slightest.

[artist4perry]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

I quote from a study (regarding religion's impact on society) published in Journal of Religion and Society, a US scientific journal:

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies". Journal of Religion and Society. Vol. 7

One cannot point to any decent points in history where atheism was the motivator, where as one can point to a multitude of cases where religion, be it Christianity, Islam or whatever has been the motivator for murder, discrimination and oppression. I know you'll whine about communism and nazism, neither of which has atheism been the motivation behind it. Hitler based most of his ideas around Christian antisemitism, especially Martin Luther. On the other hand; Stalin didn't kill millions because of his unrelenting skepticism, but because a central part of the communist dogma is to surrender yourself to your leader. All other affiliations, whether national, political, or ideological were distractions that would eventually lead to the destruction of the system. In fact, communism resembles far more closely religious fanaticism than Western secular ideals.

Religion, with its all-knowing god, is inherently a dividing force. As long as people believe in a vengeful and demanding god who works above and beyond human reason, religion will always be a potential tool for evil.

People can use anything as a tool for evil. As I said, you don't kill all dogs because someone said a dog told him to kill.

[conversationpc]

I quote from a study (regarding religion's impact on society) published in Journal of Religion and Society, a US scientific journal:

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies". Journal of Religion and Society. Vol. 7

One cannot point to any decent points in history where atheism was the motivator, where as one can point to a multitude of cases where religion, be it Christianity, Islam or whatever has been the motivator for murder, discrimination and oppression. I know you'll whine about communism and nazism, neither of which has atheism been the motivation behind it. Hitler based most of his ideas around Christian antisemitism, especially Martin Luther. On the other hand; Stalin didn't kill millions because of his unrelenting skepticism, but because a central part of the communist dogma is to surrender yourself to your leader. All other affiliations, whether national, political, or ideological were distractions that would eventually lead to the destruction of the system. In fact, communism resembles far more closely religious fanaticism than Western secular ideals.

Religion, with its all-knowing god, is inherently a dividing force. As long as people believe in a vengeful and demanding god who works above and beyond human reason, religion will always be a potential tool for evil.

Anyone can SAY they are of a certain religion but, for the most part, people don't follow what they say they believe. That holds true for Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Regardless, I can say the same thing about atheism being a tool for evil at the same time. I know people on both sides of that fence who are bad, not because of their religion or lack thereof, but just because they're bad people anyway.

[SF-Dano]

Anyone can SAY they are of a certain religion but, for the most part, people don't follow what they say they believe. That holds true for Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. Regardless, I can say the same thing about atheism being a tool for evil at the same time. I know people on both sides of that fence who are bad, not because of their religion or lack thereof, but just because they're bad people anyway.

Exactly. I don't see why this is so hard for some to understand. Hitler claimed to be a Christian, but he certainly did not practice any of the principles.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one

And before I give my example, i want to preface it by saying that it IS indeed the same principle, and just as relevant....

You work in an office. And for the past couple of months there has been some pretty nasty, dirty jokes flying around. Not about you, but within earshot. So you go to the powers that be and ask for this kind of stuff to cease....should you have that right? You are ONE person, and 9 people are enjoying the dirty jokes....based on the replies here, that person would have to put up with the dirty jokes.

Another common example used -is the story of a cheerleader walking home from a football game on Friday night. Would the football players from the other team have the right to jump out of the bus and gang rape her? After all those eleven guys have a need for sexual gratification. So what about the right of one person. The good of the eleven must certainly outweigh the needs of the one? Eleven happy guys and one unhappy girl must be better than 11 unhappy guys and one happy girl? Clearly the needs of the many dont outweight the needs of the few. Certainly there needs to be another principle in operation.

[Michigan Girl]

it's not a legal doc ...there's nothing to battle about/change!!
If you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, don't say God ...if you
do, continue on ...nothing is going to stop me!!
In fact, I'll say it louder than ever ... One Nation Under
GOD ...

[S2M]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog? LOL Now the dog didn't want them to kill in his name now did he? Nor does God. Because someone in the name of anything kills does not mean the person they do it in the name of is O.K. with that. The very teachings of God find it abhorrent. You are pointing to evil people using an excuse to do evil.

S2M seriously, I see what your saying but really if you think the reality of it is it so hard to put up with the saying of something you don't believe in so much that you would expect our strapped government billions to remove it? Seems silly to me. Just when you say the pledge leave out the name God if it bugs you.

I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, druids, Jews, Hindus, Mennonites.......and the lists go on. I have a problem with evil people period. And if you go about your life giving or not that is your choice. I have no problem with you not agreeing with me in the slightest.

I think the dude was just dyslectic......

[Gideon]

Religion, with its all-knowing god, is inherently a dividing force. As long as people believe in a vengeful and demanding god who works above and beyond human reason, religion will always be a potential tool for evil.

Just playing the Devil's advocate here, their point is that a lack of religion doesn't exactly lead to utopia either, otherwise there wouldn't be nonreligious assholes among us. The best you can argue is that it is a better alternative, but it is by no means perfect.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog?



I think the dude was just dyslectic...... :lol.

Until his dyslexia let to his aquittal. then they sent him to a mental hospital and cured him. He's KO now!

[artist4perry]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog? LOL Now the dog didn't want them to kill in his name now did he? Nor does God. Because someone in the name of anything kills does not mean the person they do it in the name of is O.K. with that. The very teachings of God find it abhorrent. You are pointing to evil people using an excuse to do evil.

S2M seriously, I see what your saying but really if you think the reality of it is it so hard to put up with the saying of something you don't believe in so much that you would expect our strapped government billions to remove it? Seems silly to me. Just when you say the pledge leave out the name God if it bugs you.

I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, druids, Jews, Hindus, Mennonites.......and the lists go on. I have a problem with evil people period. And if you go about your life giving or not that is your choice. I have no problem with you not agreeing with me in the slightest.

I think the dude was just dyslectic......

LOL got it, but what I said stands. People kill because they are evil or want to. No one, not even God or Dog makes them. It is a choice.

[artist4perry]

. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one

And before I give my example, i want to preface it by saying that it IS indeed the same principle, and just as relevant....

You work in an office. And for the past couple of months there has been some pretty nasty, dirty jokes flying around. Not about you, but within earshot. So you go to the powers that be and ask for this kind of stuff to cease....should you have that right? You are ONE person, and 9 people are enjoying the dirty jokes....based on the replies here, that person would have to put up with the dirty jokes.

Another common example used -is the story of a cheerleader walking home from a football game on Friday night. Would the football players from the other team have the right to jump out of the bus and gang rape her? After all those eleven guys have a need for sexual gratification. So what about the right of one person. The good of the eleven must certainly outweigh the needs of the one? Eleven happy guys and one unhappy girl must be better than 11 unhappy guys and one happy girl? Clearly the needs of the many dont outweight the needs of the few. Certainly there needs to be another principle in operation.

I think your taking the expression to the extreme aren't you? I don't think anyone condones hurting someone. Its a word, the word is GOD. You aren't put under a gun and forced to say it. I am with MG..........just omit it if it troubles you guys that much. Or chose not to say it at all.

[parfait]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog? LOL Now the dog didn't want them to kill in his name now did he? Nor does God. Because someone in the name of anything kills does not mean the person they do it in the name of is O.K. with that. The very teachings of God find it abhorrent. You are pointing to evil people using an excuse to do evil.

S2M seriously, I see what your saying but really if you think the reality of it is it so hard to put up with the saying of something you don't believe in so much that you would expect our strapped government billions to remove it? Seems silly to me. Just when you say the pledge leave out the name God if it bugs you.

I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, druids, Jews, Hindus, Mennonites.......and the lists go on. I have a problem with evil people period. And if you go about your life giving or not that is your choice. I have no problem with you not agreeing with me in the slightest.

I think the dude was just dyslectic......

LOL got it, but what I said stands. People kill because they are evil or want to. No one, not even God or Dog makes them. It is a choice.

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that. The God in the bible is not a kind person. Seriously. Read it from cover to cover. He's sadistic, full of envy and hatred. To pick and choose what you want to believe in a book who's God's words; makes absolutely no sense.

[artist4perry]

Many dictators kill and have no faith at all, so blaming God for people who kill is ridiculous. If Son of Sam killed because a Dog told him to kill, do you get rid of all dogs? That is stupid. All people of faith are not dangerous, or out to do any harm at all. You just have some deep seated dislike I can not understand.

Exactly...Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was either an atheist or agnostic. Would it be fair to say atheism/agnosticism caused him to commit murder?

C'mon Dave....you are smarter than that. I'm talking about people who have specifically killed in the name of their god. The Crusades ring a bell? How about 9/11....I'm not talking about a random guy from Skokie, who kills 3 women on some country road - and come to find out he used to be in seminary.

What about the guy who kills in the name of a Dog? LOL Now the dog didn't want them to kill in his name now did he? Nor does God. Because someone in the name of anything kills does not mean the person they do it in the name of is O.K. with that. The very teachings of God find it abhorrent. You are pointing to evil people using an excuse to do evil.

S2M seriously, I see what your saying but really if you think the reality of it is it so hard to put up with the saying of something you don't believe in so much that you would expect our strapped government billions to remove it? Seems silly to me. Just when you say the pledge leave out the name God if it bugs you.

I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, druids, Jews, Hindus, Mennonites.......and the lists go on. I have a problem with evil people period. And if you go about your life giving or not that is your choice. I have no problem with you not agreeing with me in the slightest.

I think the dude was just dyslectic......

LOL got it, but what I said stands. People kill because they are evil or want to. No one, not even God or Dog makes them. It is a choice.

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that. The God in the bible is not a kind person. Seriously. Read it from cover to cover. He's sadistic, full of envy and hatred. To pick and choose what you want to believe in a book who's God's words; makes absolutely no sense.

I have read it from cover to cover. Many times. You only read it to find fault, not with understanding or thinking about the why. We are to live by the New not the Old Testament. It is not my goal to make you or anyone understand.

No one is asking you to understand. You don't want to. I get it. What you don't get is because someone wants to kill in God's name, and God says don't kill...........it is a COMMANDMENT after all, not a suggestion, that person does so of his own choice ignoring God's commandment.

The wonderful thing is you don't have to believe. You don't have to love him. You have that choice as much as the person who wants to do evil and claim he made them. It is passing the buck on these people's part to blame God for their evil ways. God did not tell them to. They did it of their own choice.

Since you say God does not exist, what really makes them kill? Have you ever thought of that? People who do wicked things usually have some scapegoat to blame. My mommy made me sit on the potty before I was old enough. Nobody ever loved me. I didn't like the way she looked at me, she knew better so I had to teach her a lesson. Men who kill their wives often blame the wife. She didn't cook my meal good enough.

Sorry Parfait, their excuse is a cop out and so is your reason to do away with religion. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Many people today are religious and do no harm to anyone. They pay their taxes, bills, work hard, and do as much as they can for others. Just like non religious folks do. They are not a threat.

It isn't religion it is the mindset of evil folks that does harm. Religious or otherwise. Evil people are evil people regardless of their "warped reasoning".

[conversationpc]

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that.

Sorry, wrong again...If you look at people's real motivations, the main motivator is personal power, fame, fortune, etc. There's no doubt about it. Look at Jim Jones...Yeah, he used religion as the excuse to kill all those people but, in the end, it was for his own power-mad purposes.

[artist4perry]

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that.

Sorry, wrong again...If you look at people's real motivations, the main motivator is personal power, fame, fortune, etc. There's no doubt about it. Look at Jim Jones...Yeah, he used religion as the excuse to kill all those people but, in the end, it was for his own power-mad purposes.

Exactly. Don't drink the Koolaid.

[parfait]

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that.

Sorry, wrong again...If you look at people's real motivations, the main motivator is personal power, fame, fortune, etc. There's no doubt about it. Look at Jim Jones...Yeah, he used religion as the excuse to kill all those people but, in the end, it was for his own power-mad purposes.

Exactly. Don't drink the Koolaid.

The crusades. The witch burnings. The inquisition. The Anti-Judaic and Anti-semitic persecution. Jihad. Oppression of women. Or what about the genocides the Man himself orders? When God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword. The slaughtering of the first born in Egypt? The serial rape and murder of a priest's concubine by the Benjamites? But wait - suddenly Jesus is born in some godforsaken village in Palestine through parthenogenesis, got strung up on the cross and rose from the dead? (Note that it wasn't just Jesus who rose from the dead, but every dead person around) Yeah...

The number of logical, scientific and historical fallacies in the Bible are mind-numbing. Believe what you want. The only koolaid I've been drinking is the one of rationality however. Following the current trends, then organized religion will be gone in a few centuries in Europe. Fortunately.

[iceberg]

But religion has been the main motivator throughout history. There's no doubt about that. The God in the bible is not a kind person. Seriously. Read it from cover to cover. He's sadistic, full of envy and hatred. To pick and choose what you want to believe in a book who's God's words; makes absolutely no sense.

i think faith is our main motivator. religion is an aspect of that.