27 People Dead, Mostly Children, at Connecticut Elementary

[DavidWT]

I don't what the answer to the gun problem is, but clearly we're doing something seriously wrong in this country. You don't hear about this crap going on on a regular basis in other countries. I know some people always like to say, "Well, criminals would get guns, regardless of the laws, so laws are pointless," but then I have to ask why do we have any laws at all? Why not just say, "Well, criminals will break laws anyway, so let's all just let everyone do whatever the hell they want"?
Japan has very strict gun laws, and how often do you hear about mass shootings in Japan? Same thing with England, too, not to mention plenty of other countries (but those are the two I'm most familiar with.) So there's certainly more we could be doing with regard to laws and accessibility, rather than just sitting back with the defeatist attitude of, "Oh, shucks, there's nothing we can do to stop the criminals," since clearly other countries have figured out a way.

I've got "friend" on FB who constantly posts pictures of the latest assault rifles that he bought for himself-- Why the hell is he able to get them so easily? What possible purpose could a chef have for owning multiple assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc? He claims it's for self-defense in case somebody breaks into his home. Seriously? You need 10 assault rifles, multiple sniper rifles and a whole collection of handguns to deal with a burglar? Give me a break. Fact is, I think he enjoys the "glamour" of owning these weapons (otherwise why would he constantly post photos of them?), and that seems like a pretty screwed up (but all too common) mentality to me.

And I'm sick of hearing, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." What should be said is, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns sure as hell make their job a whole lot easier." And before somebody says, "Well, then should we ban knives and forks, too?"-- it's quite a bit harder to kill hordes of people with a knife or a fork, and knives and forks DO serve practical purposes beyond just killing. I'm not suggesting there's a way to make the world 100% safe... people will always find ways to harm each other if they want to... but there has to be more we could do to make it difficult for those people. Other civilized countries manage it, why are we so incapable?

[AR]

There are plenty of guns in Canada (mostly hunting rifles) – and yet the annual gun murder count in Canada is around 200 deaths.

Something is just wrong with society here in the states.

[Rick]

I don't agree with everything in this article, but he does have some valid points.

http://theweek.com/article/index/237900 ... nd-cant-do


Doctors can't save every patient. But they must be able to tell the patient's family that they've done everything they can. Our politicians cannot say the same. Hollywood, by glorifying gun violence, can't say the same. If "guns don't kill people, people kill people," then make it harder for "people" to get guns. And make guns harder to be misused.

In 11 years of living in Washington, D.C., I knew one person who was mugged. In the six months since I've lived in LA, I've had a friend raped, two friends mugged at gunpoint, and another was the victim of a gay bashing attack. I take self-defense seriously. But getting a gun should be at least as hard as getting a driver's license.

A citizen who wants a gun and a concealed carry permit should go through exactly the same training and recertification as a cop would... it's easier to get a gun as a citizen than as a cop.

Criminal background checks, a basic mental health test and recertification, along with registration, limits on the types of guns available for purchase, and limits on the amount of ammo that can be bought. Guns bought and sold at hobby shows ought to be subject to the same regulations.

Hunting rifles are different than pistols and ought to be treated accordingly. One-shot-per-trigger-pull pistols ought to be as "semi-automatic" as semi-automatic can get. There ought to be a limit as to how much ammunition a gun can fire. Very rarely, if ever, will self-defense require a high-capacity clip.

If this costs money, then tax gun owners.

The NRA can set the standard for training. Their educational arm does a great job here. People who get NRA firearms training tend to be responsible with their weapons. Their political arm is opportunistic and craven, which of course it has every right to be.

Every gun bought ought to be registered with the state, just like every car you buy.

Finally, we need to examine the trade-offs between privacy and safety when it comes to mental health. Let's assume that everyone has at least some sort of crazy in them. So let's have people affirmatively prove their mental health in a psych test.

Criminals will always break laws and bad people will find ways to get guns. That's a given. But rarely in mass shootings are the perpetrators criminals before the fact; in most cases they obtain the gun legally. The argument that gun law violators are responsible for the negative externalities of gun violence ignores the fact that the black market in guns manufactured legally is enormous. The argument doesn't wash either way. The availability of guns now makes it easier for anyone, bad or good, to get them for any reason. Our concern ought to be with what can be reasonably done to mitigate the chances of mass shootings.

None of the suggestions I've made above will help the city of Chicago stem its gun murder rate, except for a lot more heavy and risky law enforcement, which costs a lot of money.

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

The entertainment industry, movies and rap, bears responsibility for helping create a culture of permissiveness.

In terms of approbation, straw buyers of guns ought to be treated like we treat child rapists.

Start from there.

[Memorex]

Guns do serve another purpose besides killing. Sport, hobby, and above all, protection. I lived in California where crime is insane and it seemed like only the criminal element had the guns. Now I live in MN where it seems everyone owns a gun and you certainly don't hear too much about home invasions, etc. It's kind of known here that if you want to break into a house in MN, you probably aren't walking out. It took me a long time to get used to, but the population here are overwhelmingly responsible owners. They seem well-versed in how to handle it, from the time they are kids. It's open carry here, so you walk in the store and people have guns strapped on. It's kind of weird but I have to say, I've learned to find comfort in it. I'd rather these responsible people keep the criminal element at bay than have a gun pointed in my face, as I did in California.

Here's the thing - guns are making it too easy for disturbed people to cause mass casualties. That's just a fact. The problem is the fact that we are allowing more and more people to become unhinged in society, not the guns. But since we have allowed it, we now have to deal with their access to weapons.

I don't know the answer. I mean here's a kid that seems to have a lot of issues, yet he had access to guns. That's not a breakdown of gun laws, that's a breakdown in the thought process of whoever allowed him access. From what I understand, he did not buy them. So someone assisted him in putting those guns in his hands. People need to be smarter and more diligent than that.

My 19 year old son owns a gun for sport. He moved to California and back, on his own. Lives in an apartment. He's his own man through and through. He's a solid individual with no signs of any malice, etc. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. But that gun resides with me, locked up and until such time as I feel he should have his gun in his apartment (which will be years from now), it will remain with me. Until I feel the balance of the odds of him being harmed VS an accident happening with that gun favor protection, it will remain with me. Yes - he can go buy his own gun now, but he won't because he knows what that would do between me and him. How that kid yesterday had access to guns is just crazy.

[Memorex]

I don't agree with everything in this article, but he does have some valid points.

http://theweek.com/article/index/237900 ... nd-cant-do


Doctors can't save every patient. But they must be able to tell the patient's family that they've done everything they can. Our politicians cannot say the same. Hollywood, by glorifying gun violence, can't say the same. If "guns don't kill people, people kill people," then make it harder for "people" to get guns. And make guns harder to be misused.

In 11 years of living in Washington, D.C., I knew one person who was mugged. In the six months since I've lived in LA, I've had a friend raped, two friends mugged at gunpoint, and another was the victim of a gay bashing attack. I take self-defense seriously. But getting a gun should be at least as hard as getting a driver's license.

A citizen who wants a gun and a concealed carry permit should go through exactly the same training and recertification as a cop would... it's easier to get a gun as a citizen than as a cop.

Criminal background checks, a basic mental health test and recertification, along with registration, limits on the types of guns available for purchase, and limits on the amount of ammo that can be bought. Guns bought and sold at hobby shows ought to be subject to the same regulations.

Hunting rifles are different than pistols and ought to be treated accordingly. One-shot-per-trigger-pull pistols ought to be as "semi-automatic" as semi-automatic can get. There ought to be a limit as to how much ammunition a gun can fire. Very rarely, if ever, will self-defense require a high-capacity clip.

If this costs money, then tax gun owners.

The NRA can set the standard for training. Their educational arm does a great job here. People who get NRA firearms training tend to be responsible with their weapons. Their political arm is opportunistic and craven, which of course it has every right to be.

Every gun bought ought to be registered with the state, just like every car you buy.

Finally, we need to examine the trade-offs between privacy and safety when it comes to mental health. Let's assume that everyone has at least some sort of crazy in them. So let's have people affirmatively prove their mental health in a psych test.

Criminals will always break laws and bad people will find ways to get guns. That's a given. But rarely in mass shootings are the perpetrators criminals before the fact; in most cases they obtain the gun legally. The argument that gun law violators are responsible for the negative externalities of gun violence ignores the fact that the black market in guns manufactured legally is enormous. The argument doesn't wash either way. The availability of guns now makes it easier for anyone, bad or good, to get them for any reason. Our concern ought to be with what can be reasonably done to mitigate the chances of mass shootings.

None of the suggestions I've made above will help the city of Chicago stem its gun murder rate, except for a lot more heavy and risky law enforcement, which costs a lot of money.

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

The entertainment industry, movies and rap, bears responsibility for helping create a culture of permissiveness.

In terms of approbation, straw buyers of guns ought to be treated like we treat child rapists.

Start from there.

A lot of interesting points. The problem is, not one of those things would have stopped what happened yesterday. I assume whoever had the permit that bought the guns would have passed all the above. Someone allowed him access to the guns and should probably go to jail, depending on the circumstances. I've thought about the ideas where they want a serial number on every bullet, register every gun, etc. Again, none of that would have stopped these events because generally, the shooter doesn't have any ideas of getting away. So there's this whole article and the only thing they mention about fixing the actual mental problem is a psyche test, which again - would not have stopped this because the purchaser of the guns was not the shooter.

I do think all guns should be registered, including private sales, and if your gun gets stolen, you must report it. I know that doesn't stop the flow from guns from Mexico, but if your gun is used in a crime and you did not properly secure it, you should be held accountable.

[Rick]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

[G.I.Jim]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

[parfait]

There's not any doubt it: increased civilian gun ownership increases the number of deaths by firearms. All statistics points to it. 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35–50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns. In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm. That's insane.

[Rick]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

No, I agree with you and FF about that statement. I think it's stupid to blame the manufacturer too. I did like some things said in the article, but not that.

[verslibre]

There's not any doubt it: increased civilian gun ownership increases the number of deaths by firearms. All statistics points to it. 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35–50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns. In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm. That's insane.

Everyone should stop driving, too. People crash into each other and get run over accidentally and otherwise. Drunks and what not.

Same logic.

[G.I.Jim]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

No, I agree with you and FF about that statement. I think it's stupid to blame the manufacturer too. I did like some things said in the article, but not that.

Oh, my bad! I thought you were calling HIS post moronic. Guess I should learn to read a little better.

[Rick]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

No, I agree with you and FF about that statement. I think it's stupid to blame the manufacturer too. I did like some things said in the article, but not that.

Oh, my bad! I thought you were calling HIS post moronic. Guess I should learn to read a little better.

Maybe I should learn to formulate a readable sentence too. I hope FF didn't think that too.

[G.I.Jim]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

No, I agree with you and FF about that statement. I think it's stupid to blame the manufacturer too. I did like some things said in the article, but not that.

Oh, my bad! I thought you were calling HIS post moronic. Guess I should learn to read a little better.

Maybe I should learn to formulate a readable sentence too. I hope FF didn't think that too.

No, unlike Jim I can read.

Hyuck hyuck!

[Rick]

Rick wrote:

So step two is an aggressive shaming campaign to hold gun manufacturers accountable, at least in terms of being called out on it, for every criminal act their gun is used to effectuate.

Come on Rick, that's crazy talk. The guns are inantimate objects, the criminals are who need called out. Jeez...

I don't agree with some of the things in the article either. This being one of them. That's a moronic statement. What I did agree with is that it is easier for a citizen to get a gun than a cop. I think he made a good point that if a citizen wants to own a gun then they should have to have some kind of training.

I think he's 100% correct Rick. Blaming a gun manufacturer is like blaming a spoon manufacturer because you're fat. How about placing the blame on the fucked up person who committed the crime??? You know you're my brother from another mother, but I just don't get this mentality. You're still my boy Blue!

No, I agree with you and FF about that statement. I think it's stupid to blame the manufacturer too. I did like some things said in the article, but not that.

Oh, my bad! I thought you were calling HIS post moronic. Guess I should learn to read a little better.

Maybe I should learn to formulate a readable sentence too. I hope FF didn't think that too.

No, unlike Jim I can read.

[RocknRoll]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

[Memorex]

Two days before that, Adam Lanza, 20, went to a sporting goods store in Danbury, Conn., and tried to purchase a rifle, but was rebuffed because the state has a waiting period for gun sales, the officials said.

So....Connecticut gun laws worked as intended. Hmmmmmm, so he shot his Mom and stole her guns, it's a damn shame that whackos like this won't follow the laws, guess we should make more laws to make them follow the other laws.

My point from earlier is he should have not been able to steal her guns. If one of my kids came to me and threatened me that I had to give them my guns, I would say sure, let me open the safe for you. Then I'd pull one out and hold them at gunpoint until the police got there. If he had free access to those guns, she didn't do her job as a gun owner.

Many years ago, a 5 year old relative of mine was shot and killed by her 9 year old neighbor. He came to their house, opened the gun cabinet (an unlocked glass case) and loaded a shell from a drawer and shot her. He had no clue what he was doing. It was an "accident". The crime was leaving a gun and ammo out for anyone to grab.

[slucero]

Two days before that, Adam Lanza, 20, went to a sporting goods store in Danbury, Conn., and tried to purchase a rifle, but was rebuffed because the state has a waiting period for gun sales, the officials said.

So....Connecticut gun laws worked as intended. Hmmmmmm, so he shot his Mom and stole her guns, it's a damn shame that whackos like this won't follow the laws, guess we should make more laws to make them follow the other laws.

My point from earlier is he should have not been able to steal her guns. If one of my kids came to me and threatened me that I had to give them my guns, I would say sure, let me open the safe for you. Then I'd pull one out and hold them at gunpoint until the police got there. If he had free access to those guns, she didn't do her job as a gun owner.

Many years ago, a 5 year old relative of mine was shot and killed by her 9 year old neighbor. He came to their house, opened the gun cabinet (an unlocked glass case) and loaded a shell from a drawer and shot her. He had no clue what he was doing. It was an "accident". The crime was leaving a gun and ammo out for anyone to grab.

If a person can afford a $500 Glock, a $500 SigSaur, and a Bushmaster AR15 ($750+) they can afford a $300 Biometric gunsafe.

This one is for rifles and pistols and would have held all the guns she owned.

$300 bucks

[Memorex]

Do you think discussion is about gun control because we have no idea how to comprehend the absolute horror that occurred and couldn't find a word if we tried. I swear I can't even grasp what happened.

It's so random and so specific that I can't really even worry more about my kids going to school. My brain does allow for the possibility of this happening to them. Even after all these events, I can't allow for the possibility. Strange feeling.

[Rick]

Do you think discussion is about gun control because we have no idea how to comprehend the absolute horror that occurred and couldn't find a word if we tried. I swear I can't even grasp what happened.

It's so random and so specific that I can't really even worry more about my kids going to school. My brain does allow for the possibility of this happening to them. Even after all these events, I can't allow for the possibility. Strange feeling.

I don't know how they're going to get those kids back in the school where the shooting happened. They're K through 4th graders. They would have to be terrified to go back.

[slucero]

Interesting that this didn't get reported by CNN.... also happened yesterday...

Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-a ... 93571.html

by Mike Benner

Posted on December 14, 2012 at 10:15 PM
Updated today at 10:32 AM

PORTLAND -- Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire.

"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said.

The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else.

"I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me."

[Memorex]

Do you think discussion is about gun control because we have no idea how to comprehend the absolute horror that occurred and couldn't find a word if we tried. I swear I can't even grasp what happened.

It's so random and so specific that I can't really even worry more about my kids going to school. My brain does allow for the possibility of this happening to them. Even after all these events, I can't allow for the possibility. Strange feeling.

I don't know how they're going to get those kids back in the school where the shooting happened. They're K through 4th graders. They would have to be terrified to go back.

I read somewhere that a study done stated that kids in these situations never get past it, even as adults. I can imagine.

When we had the gun pulled on us in California, my son was 9. He's 12 now and I'd say that only in the last 6 months is he moving on from it. And that was a very quick event, maybe all of one or two minutes.

[slucero]

turns out the shooter is mildly Autistic.. not sure how that contributes, if any.

But the mother having no way of securing her weapons is the primary cause IMHO..

[Ritchie]

My thoughts and prayers are with the parents and family of all victims.

[parfait]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

[artist4perry]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

One factor you might think about Parfait is even if we banned all guns we have a problem with smuggling through our borders. I can readily see that if guns are banned legally that the black market trade will be into a new market. We have done such a great job keeping the drugs from coming over... The drug cartels might just take up a new business. If there is a will there is a way. I am afraid though it sounds good and it might work elsewhere, America is not Europe, and it has a whole different crop of factors that can make what is simple to fix in a small country a boomerang disaster here. Gang members have been able to get their hands on guns for quite some time, not on the legal end of things either. With the right drive and money anyone can get what they need to do anything. It might be more of a difficult thing to do, but then it is just a ticking time bomb before it goes off.

[Memorex]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

Are you saying 88% of Americans own guns? I hardly think so.

[parfait]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

One factor you might think about Parfait is even if we banned all guns we have a problem with smuggling through our borders. I can readily see that if guns are banned legally that the black market trade will be into a new market. We have done such a great job keeping the drugs from coming over... The drug cartels might just take up a new business. If there is a will there is a way. I am afraid though it sounds good and it might work elsewhere, America is not Europe, and it has a whole different crop of factors that can make what is simple to fix in a small country a boomerang disaster here. Gang members have been able to get their hands on guns for quite some time, not on the legal end of things either. With the right drive and money anyone can get what they need to do anything. It might be more of a difficult thing to do, but then it is just a ticking time bomb before it goes off.

I think you got this mixed up. Guns are in fact smuggled into Mexico from the US, not the other way around. Around 70 percent of guns in Mexico come from the United States - http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5guv1zxttoSAF-NOJzZkAJV2R93mg An excerpt from a study done by The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime in 2010 says:

Most of the firearms trafficked from the United States to Mexico appear to be acquired from licensed dealers by straw purchasers and then trafficked across the border in very small batches by a large number of couriers taking advantage of the high levels of cross-border traffic. This long-standing flow appears to be stable.

[parfait]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

Are you saying 88% of Americans own guns? I hardly think so.

That's an estimation based on dividing the total amount of civilian owned guns in a nation by the total population of that nation. That was the Small Arms Survey done back in 2007. http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/full/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-EN.pdf

Around 40-45% households owns a gun. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#ownership

[AR]

The French don't need guns because they like being overrun and fucked in the ass by other nations.

I'm not a gun guy, I just hate France.

In fact I think the United States should be isolationists and leave Europe to their own devices.

[artist4perry]

List of rampage killers: Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... rs:_Europe


List of rampage killers: Asia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... lers:_Asia


List of rampage killers: Oceania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... s:_Oceania


List of rampage killers: Africa and the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... iddle_East


List of rampage killers: Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ra ... :_Americas


I'm sick and tired of America taking a beating internationally over our gun laws. You fucktards need to take out your own trash and we'll take out ours.

Now, between Federal and State, America has hundreds of gun laws. Most have been on the books for decades. Anyone calling for MORE gun laws fits Einsteins definition of insanity. When you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are insane.

What about peaceful Norway? They have gun laws yet this whack job killed 69 adults and children. I don't condone any violence and don't own nor will I own a gun, but if there's a whacko out there they will find a way. It's time to treat the causes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

Police doesn't even carry guns in Norway. Sure, if one's determined to kill as many people as possible, then he or she will find a way. But since the access to firearms are so great in the states, then it makes it that much fucking easier for the whackos to do harm. There's a proven correlation between civilian gun ownership and death by firearms; that's undeniable.

Gun deaths per 100 000 citizen in Norway: 1.78. France: 3.00 ( 31.2 % owns a gun). Germany: 1.10. Singapore: 0.24 (0.5 % owns a gun. Strictest gun laws in the world). USA: 9.00. 88.8 % owns a gun

Would gun solve the US' crime problems? No, but it would certainly cause less people to die needlessly. The guy behind the massacre in Norway was found sane by the court. It goes to show that it's too easy to blame horrible actions on insanity. Poverty and lack of proper education are just some risk factors.

One factor you might think about Parfait is even if we banned all guns we have a problem with smuggling through our borders. I can readily see that if guns are banned legally that the black market trade will be into a new market. We have done such a great job keeping the drugs from coming over... The drug cartels might just take up a new business. If there is a will there is a way. I am afraid though it sounds good and it might work elsewhere, America is not Europe, and it has a whole different crop of factors that can make what is simple to fix in a small country a boomerang disaster here. Gang members have been able to get their hands on guns for quite some time, not on the legal end of things either. With the right drive and money anyone can get what they need to do anything. It might be more of a difficult thing to do, but then it is just a ticking time bomb before it goes off.

I think you got this mixed up. Guns are in fact smuggled into Mexico from the US, not the other way around. Around 70 percent of guns in Mexico come from the United States - http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5guv1zxttoSAF-NOJzZkAJV2R93mg An excerpt from a study done by The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime in 2010 says:

Most of the firearms trafficked from the United States to Mexico appear to be acquired from licensed dealers by straw purchasers and then trafficked across the border in very small batches by a large number of couriers taking advantage of the high levels of cross-border traffic. This long-standing flow appears to be stable.

Regardless if they want them they will get them. Seriously the only people being withheld from buying guns are the ones who might never commit a crime in their lives. It is easy to say just get rid of guns and all the killing will stop. It won't, they just will find another avenue to kill. Next time maybe a bomb. The will to kill is the issue. Why we have so many going that route is what is needed to be known. We are breeding more and more nut jobs every day. Now as for me I never have owned a gun and I never will. It is not for my own rights that I say this is not going to work. I do support the rights of hunters to hunt and home owners to protect themselves. I am a teacher and I am going to work on Monday and not live my life in mortal terror. If I have to lay down my life for my students I would do so gladly. I am not going to run around like chicken little and scream "BAN THE GUNS!" "BAN THE GUNS!" Usually that is the emotional fix all to the problem for most folks...pardon me if I don't let my guard down because guns are gone from legal obtainment. Their will still be crazies that find crafty ways to do their ugly deeds. I will always have to keep vigilant. Sad, but true.