Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[conversationpc]

Obviously there is a creator, otherwise we would not be here.

Yep, and that creator is called "4,5 billion years of evolution".

As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

[Arianddu]

We have a soul? where's the prove of that? ...and a ape with 98,6% of our genes hasn't, strange isn't it. At which point in evolution did that soul enter our body (somewhere between the 98.6% and 100%?) and why?
There is no good from wrong, try to understand that. Many historical heroes would be called mass murderers nowadays. Think of all the mass murdering Christianity was responsible for throughout history and also think about middle east suicide bombers more recently. What we call good or wrong depends of the time and place we live in. It is connected to morality, a complex whole of codes societies live by. Morality has NOTHING to do with religion, religious societies have just the same amount of murders, rapes, divorce, child abuse, etc than atheist ones.
And of course evolution has to do with religion, there is a scientific explanation why thins are the way the are. Evolution is not just a theory, it's happening all around us, right now. Prove is wherever you want to grab it. What's the prove of religion billions of people live by... zero, nada, nothing.

How does the theory of evolution account for the existence of matter in the first place? How did it come into being?

Evolution doesn't account for the existance of matter in the first place, because evolution is an explanation of how biological organisms alter over time based on adaption to new circumstances, and not the physics of energy-matter interactions. Your question makes as much sense as asking "How does Bush's economic theory account for European Bison populations in the 10th Century."

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

[ProgRocker53]

I personally believe the Earth is billions and billions of years old.

BUT.

I personally believe that it all started out as a greater being's creation, who has shaped and molded and experimented with various life forms over all these years. Evolution, in my eyes, is God's way of improving His craft and (for the moment being) humans are His flawed masterpiece.

[Arianddu]

I personally believe the Earth is billions and billions of years old.

BUT.

I personally believe that it all started out as a greater being's creation, who has shaped and molded and experimented with various life forms over all these years. Evolution, in my eyes, is God's way of improving His craft and (for the moment being) humans are His flawed masterpiece.

And that's cool, and I totally get it. Evolution's a pretty elegent and complex thing, and if there is a God (and I'm open to the possibility) then it seems much more likely that he/she/it is going to create over the full range of time and complexity, rather than just 'poof! There you go! Done!'

I get frustrated with people saying 'oh, science can't prove that evolution works without God, or the universe was created without God' but who disregard the fact that you can't prove the existance of God either.

[iLex]

As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

There are several ways amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. We only just started to discover, and luckily we now live in a time and place we can share our discoveries without being cursed, burned or hanged by religious leaders.
Not knowing everything (yet) is no reason to believe that a magic man must have done it.
Thanks to the Large Hadron Collider in Geneve we're gonna know a lot more about the birth of our universe soon...
http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/lhc2008/index.html
...these are interesting times to live in

[Greg]

Evolution doesn't account for the existance of matter in the first place, because evolution is an explanation of how biological organisms alter over time based on adaption to new circumstances, and not the physics of energy-matter interactions. Your question makes as much sense as asking "How does Bush's economic theory account for European Bison populations in the 10th Century."

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. The question you imposed is who created God? The answer would be no higher power created God. God would be the highest power you could get. If something created God, then that something would be God.

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

[Enigma869]

However, you must admit that these are the people that have serious mental defects, not your 'average' Christian.

For the record, I wasn't singling out any one religion. I think every religion has factions that are totally fucked in the head. I was making the point that there are endless, horrendous acts that are committed in the name of religion. I'll be happy when every religion in America starts paying their share of taxes, just like everyone else. Whether it's some Catholic priest diddling an altar boy, or some yahoo parent saying that because of their Christian beliefs (which incidentally, I don't recall in any of the Christian teaching at the church I attended) they don't have to feed their child, it's all sickening to me!


John from Boston

[Greg]

I personally believe the Earth is billions and billions of years old.

BUT.

I personally believe that it all started out as a greater being's creation, who has shaped and molded and experimented with various life forms over all these years. Evolution, in my eyes, is God's way of improving His craft and (for the moment being) humans are His flawed masterpiece.

And that's cool, and I totally get it. Evolution's a pretty elegent and complex thing, and if there is a God (and I'm open to the possibility) then it seems much more likely that he/she/it is going to create over the full range of time and complexity, rather than just 'poof! There you go! Done!'

I get frustrated with people saying 'oh, science can't prove that evolution works without God, or the universe was created without God' but who disregard the fact that you can't prove the existance of God either.

Looking at this stuff from your point of view, I understand the need for proof. It does sound like you're open to the possiblities of God creating the heavens and the earth, and that's cool. And I agree, evolution is a pretty elegant and complex thing, and I don't believe it's a concept that will ever be fully understood.

[Greg]

However, you must admit that these are the people that have serious mental defects, not your 'average' Christian.

For the record, I wasn't singling out any one religion. I think every religion has factions that are totally fucked in the head. I was making the point that there are endless, horrendous acts that are committed in the name of religion. I'll be happy when every religion in America starts paying their share of taxes, just like everyone else. Whether it's some Catholic priest diddling an altar boy, or some yahoo parent saying that because of their Christian beliefs (which incidentally, I don't recall in any of the Christian teaching at the church I attended) they don't have to feed their child, it's all sickening to me!


John from Boston

Believe it or not John, I do agree with you that every religion has some people who have done some stupid things in the name of their religion. And, you are correct, people saying they don't give their children certain medical treatments because it's against their religion or the example you used would be idiotic of these people. Since Christians feel God is God of life, it would be a contradiction to believe in something that would be counter-productive to life.

In regards to "religion paying taxes" it will never happen unless your willing to allow religion a voice in government.

[donnaplease]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

[iLex]

I personally believe the Earth is billions and billions of years old.

BUT.

I personally believe that it all started out as a greater being's creation, who has shaped and molded and experimented with various life forms over all these years. Evolution, in my eyes, is God's way of improving His craft and (for the moment being) humans are His flawed masterpiece.

And who created that creator, Allah maybe?
Believe in god and all that comes with it always gave me more questions than answers.
Humans can hardly be called a masterpiece. More a species out of control heading for self-destruction the fast way.
BTW: This is nice video, a bit out of topic but nice...
http://www.storyofstuff.com/

[Michigan Girl]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

So simple, yet so perfect!!!

[S2M]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

So simple, yet so perfect!!!

And this is it's MAIN weakness....it isn't open for falsification. Just like Freud's theories. What if I told you I believed that a pink elephant with purple stripes resides inside the 'Whale', and I pray to it every night that Journey plays 'Open Arms', does that make it so? And how easy would this be to prove, or disprove?

[Michigan Girl]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

So simple, yet so perfect!!!

And this is it's MAIN weakness....it isn't open for falsification. Just like Freud's theories. What if I told you I believed that a pink elephant with purple stripes resides inside the 'Whale', and I pray to it every night that Journey plays 'Open Arms', does that make it so? And how easy would this be to prove, or disprove?

Are you saying Freud's theories are or are not open to falsifications?

[iLex]

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist.

Hell we are!

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

All your questions have a simple answer ...you really do not seem to understand how evolution works. (my first point in my first topic)
Therefore it is VERY important that schools start to teach this science early, before kids are brainwashed with irrational religious/creationist mambo jambo.
It's not too late to get educated. This is a good one to start with...
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species-Ch ... 0517123207
Want to wake up from the delusion? This one's great...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

[Arianddu]

Evolution doesn't account for the existance of matter in the first place, because evolution is an explanation of how biological organisms alter over time based on adaption to new circumstances, and not the physics of energy-matter interactions. Your question makes as much sense as asking "How does Bush's economic theory account for European Bison populations in the 10th Century."

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. The question you imposed is who created God? The answer would be no higher power created God. God would be the highest power you could get. If something created God, then that something would be God.

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

Ok, couple of points:

1. "Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. "

No. No, no, no, no. I've said it before, I will say it again - you cannot argue faith and science together - they work on fundamentally different rules. If I believe in God THEN I can explain what I see around me as being controlled by the Divine. But my belief in God has to come first, and it is NOT essential for me to believe in God to find rational, viable explanaitions for the world I see.

2. "The question you imposed is who created God?"

No, I didn't impose a question, I provided a philosophical parallel - Someone asks me 'how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place?' to which I respond 'how do believers explain the existance of God in first place?', or 'who created God?'

In fact, it's not fair to pose the questions, because they are based on fundamentally different ways of coming to an answer. Science , when considering the beginging of everything, looks at what goes on around us, tries to come up with an answer based on what we currently know, currently understand, and adapts it as we learn more, discover more. Belief, when considering the beginning of everything, bases it's answer on belief. Philosophy breeds more philosophy, belief requires that you believe.

The point that I am trying to make is that it is just as irrational to say 'Science, prove the Universe came into existance without God doing it' as it to say 'Religion, prove God exists and created everything.'

I don't expect believers to have the answer to everything about God, belief, faith, why things happen the way they do, why good things happen to bad people, why bad things happen to good people, how God can allow innocents to suffer, and so on and so on.

Thus, I won't accept believers then saying to me 'Because science can't answer everything, it's all wrong!' as being credible.

3. "I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day?"

I NEVER said evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. I said that evolution does not address the creation of matter (or the creation of the Universe, if you prefer) because it concerns the changes in life, not the physics of matter/energy interactions.

As for where life began? Well, there is evidence found in the earliest fossils that certain chemical muds could potentially have created a template for basic RNA-like molecules that were able to self-replicate, that may have started the whole chain. Doesn't mean that's what happened, ALSO doesn't mean it isn't what happened.

4. "there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys."

Common misconception - Science does not prove anything, it seeks to find the most plausible answer, and always stays open to new information, new explanations.

Religion doesn't prove anything either. But it does ask you accept something as true. Science does not - it asks you to accept something as the best explanation we have at the moment, based on observable evidence.

5. "If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans?"

Why should they? The whole theory of evolution is based on radical differentiation, diversity and niche specialisation. Evolution would be a lot less plausible if all apes DID evolve into humans. Might as well ask 'why didn't all apes evolve into orang utans?' or 'why did God bother to make so many different kinds of animal when humans only need maybe 20 different sorts?'

6. "Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"

You believe it's a stretch, and that's cool. I believe it's more of a stretch to believe in God as fact (and please note - I believe in neither the existance nor non-existance of God.) I also think it's pure hubris to believe that if an omnipotent being exists that any one human has a hope of understand that being's desires, plans or meaning.

As for why hasn't it happened many times before - again, why should it? Once life exists on earth, it's here. What, it has to be wiped out and begun again for evolution to have credibility?

Let's rephrase your question and see if it makes more sense!
"If God had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"

[Enigma869]

Whatever. Just sounds a bit irrational in my opinion.

It's not my job to pass your "rational" test!

Again, so what? Who are you to say these churches can't be there?

I don't recall ever once saying that "these churches can't be there"!

If the mere sight of a church causes you to have some kind of mental breakdown, then it's something you need to get checked out.

You once again prove what a fucking moron you are!

How is it turned into an industry?

For starters, there appear to be more churches in the south than there are businesses. Also, turn your tv on Sunday morning, and some jackass preacher is begging for money from the pulpit This "Please send your money...God will save you" bullshit is fucking embarrassing!

John. This belief isn't limited to Evangelical Christians nor is it limited to Christianity. You simply chose them because they have caused you to have some type of conviction in your life that you're angry about.

No moron, I "simply chose them", because I've NEVER seen it with any other group. You'd be hardpressed to find too many Bostonians who don't attend regular Saturday and Sunday services. The difference in this part of the country is that there is actually a tolerance and acceptance of another person's right to practice their own religion, and a recognition that other religions actually do exist!

Wow, talk about hypocritical. You're calling me a moron and a jackass

Right...I call them as I see them

I'd suggest you take a look at yourself

I already did, when I was brushing my teeth this morning, and I look okay for a guy who is under the weather

I'm not sure exactly what religious messages on marquees at fast food restaurants have anything to do with the U.S. government.

They are two separate issues, dope! I never said fast food restaurants were government run facilities. I simply said that the south was the only part of the country that I've ever seen religious references on fast food marquees, and went on to say that I think it's foolish, from a business standpoint, for any business to endorse one religion. The government comment I made pertained to the DMV, and I spelled it out quite clearly. Apparently all that Bible reading isn't honing your literacy skills aqequately enough!

Those fast food restaurants are privately owned businesses. They are in the private sector. Which means, they are NOT owned by the government genius.

Again fuckhead, I never claimed that restaurants, of any kind, were owned by the government! Being in the private sector and being a "privately owned business" are two entirely different things, "genius"! You were the moron who claimed that it was a privately owned business. I simply pointed out that Wendy's is absolutely NOT a privately owned business. "Private Sector" simply means non-government entity. Private business means the business owner (s) has no obligation to any shareholders, who hold a financial stake in the company!

Which means the government has NO BUSINESS telling those business owners what they can or cannot have on those marquees.

Are you always this fucking stupid? You are officially the most intellectually bankrupt individual I have ever come across on this site (and that's saying something)! Show me one fucking place that I claimed the government had any business telling a business owner what to do with their business. Let me spell this out one more time for my friend who can't seem to get his brain jump-started! I said, UNEQUIVOCALLY, that NO government run agency (think DMV, jackass) should have ANY religious references plastered all over their walls, when people of all faiths are required to conduct business in these government-run facilities! I went on to say that I don't think it's smart business for ANY business owner (including even small mom and pop operations) to endorse any one religion, to the exclusion of all others. When it is a publically traded company, who has an obligation to their shareholders (presumably shareholders of many different faiths), they also are clueless to endorse one religion! Nowhere did I say that the government needed to step in and admonish Wendy's for what they advertise on their marquee, you dope!

People like you confuse the Freedom of Religion as being Freedom From Religion, which is incorrect.

Listen Professor Dopey...I am a lot of things, but "confused" is not one of them! I have ZERO problem articulating my position on anything! What people "confuse" is the fact that they think they can do anything they want, so long as it's in the name of their chosen religion! I have zero problem with people practicing any religion. Most members of my family attend regular church services. What I have a problem with are people who break the law and then use their religion as an excuse. "Religious Freedom" means that you're free to pray to whatever god you want to. It doesn't mean you have a right to do anything you want to do in the name of your religion! As far as your phrase "Freedom From Religion"...Yes, I do believe that people entering government buildings should ABSOLUTELY, POSTIVELY, be free from ANY religious references, AT ALL, regardless of what part of the country you're in. I know this might shock you, but in most parts of this country, you would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER see ANY religious references in ANY government-run building!

Nobody ever said government has a voice in religion.

Actually, you very clearly said that you see no problem at all with the government having a voice in religion, when I brought up the example of the DMV. Your exact quote was "I see nothing wrong with it"!

Just because a company's stock is open to be traded on the New York Stock Exchange doesn't necessarily mean it's a public company.

I'm not here to debate who is publically traded or not. I know with 100% certainty that the example I gave is that of a publically traded company who happens to be listed on the New York Stock Exchange!

I've struck a nerve because obviously there must be some truth in my assumption of you.

I can assure you that I could give fuck what your "assumption" of me is. I don't waste my energy worrying about what anyone in a made up world (i.e. the internet) thinks about me. It has zero relevance in my life. I've never met a single person from this or any other site, and don't plan to, so "assume" away!

If you don't like religious messages on certain restaurants you patron, then DON'T GO TO THOSE RESTAURANTS!

I don't!

If you feel religious people shouldn't have freedoms, then do what you need to do to change it. Let ME know how THAT works out for you!

I never once suggested that religious people shouldn't have freedoms. I simply said those who feel compelled to annoy the rest of us with their gospel need to find a new hobby, because some of us have the "freedom" of not being annoyed by Bible thumpers


John from Boston

[iLex]

and I pray to it every night that Journey plays 'Open Arms', does that make it so? And how easy would this be to prove, or disprove?

In this case it would be hard, you could convince yourself of the fact that prayer is superstition though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&fmt=18

[Enigma869]

In regards to "religion paying taxes" it will never happen unless your willing to allow religion a voice in government.

I have no problem with that. Tell those fuckers to put away their bibles and get their asses down to the polls on Tuesday morning, November 4th, and cast the same votes the rest of us do! It's the only "voice" in government anyone has!


John from Boston

[Arianddu]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

My point EXACTLY!!! Faith is faith is faith - you believe or you don't! It has NOTHING to do with scientific argument, and you shouldn't use faith to try to disprove science, any more than you should try to use science to disprove faith, because the two are radically different.

[Michigan Girl]

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist.

Hell we are!

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

All your questions have a simple answer ...you really do not seem to understand how evolution works. (my first point in my first topic)
Therefore it is VERY important that schools start to teach this science early, before kids are brainwashed with irrational religious/creationist mambo jambo.
It's not too late to get educated. This is a good one to start with...
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species-Ch ... 0517123207
Want to wake up from the delusion? This one's great...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

I remember when they were teaching the theory of evolution in the public school system. I waited for years for the apes at the Detroit Zoo to evolve, but I think they died before they became human Funny how I needed to see it to believe it, but my belief in The Holy Trinity, just was!!

[Greg]

Whatever. Just sounds a bit irrational in my opinion.

It's not my job to pass your "rational" test!

Again, so what? Who are you to say these churches can't be there?

I don't recall ever once saying that "these churches can't be there"!

If the mere sight of a church causes you to have some kind of mental breakdown, then it's something you need to get checked out.

You once again prove what a fucking moron you are!

How is it turned into an industry?

For starters, there appear to be more churches in the south than there are businesses. Also, turn your tv on Sunday morning, and some jackass preacher is begging for money from the pulpit This "Please send your money...God will save you" bullshit is fucking embarrassing!

John. This belief isn't limited to Evangelical Christians nor is it limited to Christianity. You simply chose them because they have caused you to have some type of conviction in your life that you're angry about.

No moron, I "simply chose them", because I've NEVER seen it with any other group. You'd be hardpressed to find too many Bostonians who don't attend regular Saturday and Sunday services. The difference in this part of the country is that there is actually a tolerance and acceptance of another person's right to practice their own religion, and a recognition that other religions actually do exist!

Wow, talk about hypocritical. You're calling me a moron and a jackass

Right...I call them as I see them

I'd suggest you take a look at yourself

I already did, when I was brushing my teeth this morning, and I look okay for a guy who is under the weather

I'm not sure exactly what religious messages on marquees at fast food restaurants have anything to do with the U.S. government.

They are two separate issues, dope! I never said fast food restaurants were government run facilities. I simply said that the south was the only part of the country that I've ever seen religious references on fast food marquees, and went on to say that I think it's foolish, from a business standpoint, for any business to endorse one religion. The government comment I made pertained to the DMV, and I spelled it out quite clearly. Apparently all that Bible reading isn't honing your literacy skills aqequately enough!

Those fast food restaurants are privately owned businesses. They are in the private sector. Which means, they are NOT owned by the government genius.

Again fuckhead, I never claimed that restaurants, of any kind, were owned by the government! Being in the private sector and being a "privately owned business" are two entirely different things, "genius"! You were the moron who claimed that it was a privately owned business. I simply pointed out that Wendy's is absolutely NOT a privately owned business. "Private Sector" simply means non-government entity. Private business means the business owner (s) has no obligation to any shareholders, who hold a financial stake in the company!

Which means the government has NO BUSINESS telling those business owners what they can or cannot have on those marquees.

Are you always this fucking stupid? You are officially the most intellectually bankrupt individual I have ever come across on this site (and that's saying something)! Show me one fucking place that I claimed the government had any business telling a business owner what to do with their business. Let me spell this out one more time for my friend who can't seem to get his brain jump-started! I said, UNEQUIVOCALLY, that NO government run agency (think DMV, jackass) should have ANY religious references plastered all over their walls, when people of all faiths are required to conduct business in these government-run facilities! I went on to say that I don't think it's smart business for ANY business owner (including even small mom and pop operations) to endorse any one religion, to the exclusion of all others. When it is a publically traded company, who has an obligation to their shareholders (presumably shareholders of many different faiths), they also are clueless to endorse one religion! Nowhere did I say that the government needed to step in and admonish Wendy's for what they advertise on their marquee, you dope!

People like you confuse the Freedom of Religion as being Freedom From Religion, which is incorrect.

Listen Professor Dopey...I am a lot of things, but "confused" is not one of them! I have ZERO problem articulating my position on anything! What people "confuse" is the fact that they think they can do anything they want, so long as it's in the name of their chosen religion! I have zero problem with people practicing any religion. Most members of my family attend regular church services. What I have a problem with are people who break the law and then use their religion as an excuse. "Religious Freedom" means that you're free to pray to whatever god you want to. It doesn't mean you have a right to do anything you want to do in the name of your religion! As far as your phrase "Freedom From Religion"...Yes, I do believe that people entering government buildings should ABSOLUTELY, POSTIVELY, be free from ANY religious references, AT ALL, regardless of what part of the country you're in. I know this might shock you, but in most parts of this country, you would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER see ANY religious references in ANY government-run building!

Nobody ever said government has a voice in religion.

Actually, you very clearly said that you see no problem at all with the government having a voice in religion, when I brought up the example of the DMV. Your exact quote was "I see nothing wrong with it"!

Just because a company's stock is open to be traded on the New York Stock Exchange doesn't necessarily mean it's a public company.

I'm not here to debate who is publically traded or not. I know with 100% certainty that the example I gave is that of a publically traded company who happens to be listed on the New York Stock Exchange!

I've struck a nerve because obviously there must be some truth in my assumption of you.

I can assure you that I could give fuck what your "assumption" of me is. I don't waste my energy worrying about what anyone in a made up world (i.e. the internet) thinks about me. It has zero relevance in my life. I've never met a single person from this or any other site, and don't plan to, so "assume" away!

If you don't like religious messages on certain restaurants you patron, then DON'T GO TO THOSE RESTAURANTS!

I don't!

If you feel religious people shouldn't have freedoms, then do what you need to do to change it. Let ME know how THAT works out for you!

I never once suggested that religious people shouldn't have freedoms. I simply said those who feel compelled to annoy the rest of us with their gospel need to find a new hobby, because some of us have the "freedom" of not being annoyed by Bible thumpers


John from Boston

I'm not going to comment on all of your insults, because it's obvious you cannot have an intelligent debate without slinging insults and profanity. I'll just comment on what I said about not going to those restaurants, and you said you don't. Good. Stop whining. You exercised your freedoms of choice, so did the restaurants. No harm done on either side of the fence.

[S2M]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

My point EXACTLY!!! Faith is faith is faith - you believe or you don't! It has NOTHING to do with scientific argument, and you shouldn't use faith to try to disprove science, any more than you should try to use science to disprove faith, because the two are radically different.

Try that next time you are in court......'Your honor, I have faith that my client is not guilty. Total faith in her. Sorry, what's that? Oh, you have physical scientific evidence that links my client to the scene....I see, but didn't you just here what I said? I have FAITH in my client's innocence....

Try that scenario out.....

[Greg]

In regards to "religion paying taxes" it will never happen unless your willing to allow religion a voice in government.

I have no problem with that. Tell those fuckers to put away their bibles and get their asses down to the polls on Tuesday morning, November 4th, and cast the same votes the rest of us do! It's the only "voice" in government anyone has!


John from Boston

You basically just agreed to government sponsored religion, John. Which, I'm sure is not what you of all people would want.

[Arianddu]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

My point EXACTLY!!! Faith is faith is faith - you believe or you don't! It has NOTHING to do with scientific argument, and you shouldn't use faith to try to disprove science, any more than you should try to use science to disprove faith, because the two are radically different.

Try that next time you are in court......'Your honor, I have faith that my client is not guilty. Total faith in her. Sorry, what's that? Oh, you have physical scientific evidence that links my client to the scene....I see, but didn't you just here what I said? I have FAITH in my client's innocence....

Try that scenario out.....

Um, I think you're agreeing with me. Yes?

[Greg]

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist.

Hell we are!

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

All your questions have a simple answer ...you really do not seem to understand how evolution works. (my first point in my first topic)
Therefore it is VERY important that schools start to teach this science early, before kids are brainwashed with irrational religious/creationist mambo jambo.
It's not too late to get educated. This is a good one to start with...
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species-Ch ... 0517123207
Want to wake up from the delusion? This one's great...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

I understand how evolution works, thanks. I've studied it many times over from elementary school on up through college. So, I think I have pretty firm idea of it's concepts thank you very much. And I am very well educated, I definitely assure you of that. In fact, I'm educated enough to have an open mind and consider every theory of creation, scientific or not, before I disregard and assume one as irrational just because it doesn't coincide with what I believe.

[Enigma869]

You basically just agreed to government sponsored religion, John. Which, I'm sure is not what you of all people would want.

No I did not, genius! Our government isn't even citiizen sponsored, and we all have the right to vote. I suggested giving religious organizations the same vote all citizens have. That doesn't give them the right to take over how our government is run. It simply gives them the same voice everyone else has, as it pertains to which candidate is going to win an election. For the record, I don't honestly believe that churches should have a right to vote any more than IBM or GE has a right to vote! I simply think that every religious organization should be taxed like crazy, just like every other business is! It's a complete farce that religious organizations pay zero taxes. I would be MUCH more in favor if exempting disabled or elderly people from taxes than I ever would be of religious organizations. The reality is that most of the large churches in the south make ENORMOUS amounts of money, and some of the ministers (who supposedly doing "God's Work") are actually millionaires!


John from Boston

[Michigan Girl]

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Actually, it's called 'faith' and it's one of the basic tenets of christianity. You can't scientifically explain it. You either have it or you don't. It's tested MANY times throughout our lives, usually when things are going badly. Then again, during many of those really tough times, it's stronger than ever.

My point EXACTLY!!! Faith is faith is faith - you believe or you don't! It has NOTHING to do with scientific argument, and you shouldn't use faith to try to disprove science, any more than you should try to use science to disprove faith, because the two are radically different.

Try that next time you are in court......'Your honor, I have faith that my client is not guilty. Total faith in her. Sorry, what's that? Oh, you have physical scientific evidence that links my client to the scene....I see, but didn't you just here what I said? I have FAITH in my client's innocence....

Try that scenario out.....

So when you married, assuming you're married, did you have scientific evidence that your bride would always remain faithful or did you just have faith in her?

[Arianddu]

I remember when they were teaching the theory of evolution in the public school system. I waited for years for the apes at the Detroit Zoo to evolve, but I think they died before they became human Funny how I needed to see it to believe it, but my belief in The Holy Trinity, just was!!

Hey, if it worked like that, I'd be a lot more comfortable with wishing my tone-deaf friend would evolve into Steve Perry!

[Greg]

Evolution doesn't account for the existance of matter in the first place, because evolution is an explanation of how biological organisms alter over time based on adaption to new circumstances, and not the physics of energy-matter interactions. Your question makes as much sense as asking "How does Bush's economic theory account for European Bison populations in the 10th Century."

And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.

Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. The question you imposed is who created God? The answer would be no higher power created God. God would be the highest power you could get. If something created God, then that something would be God.

But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.

Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?

Ok, couple of points:

1. "Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. "

No. No, no, no, no. I've said it before, I will say it again - you cannot argue faith and science together - they work on fundamentally different rules. If I believe in God THEN I can explain what I see around me as being controlled by the Divine. But my belief in God has to come first, and it is NOT essential for me to believe in God to find rational, viable explanaitions for the world I see.

2. "The question you imposed is who created God?"

No, I didn't impose a question, I provided a philosophical parallel - Someone asks me 'how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place?' to which I respond 'how do believers explain the existance of God in first place?', or 'who created God?'

In fact, it's not fair to pose the questions, because they are based on fundamentally different ways of coming to an answer. Science , when considering the beginging of everything, looks at what goes on around us, tries to come up with an answer based on what we currently know, currently understand, and adapts it as we learn more, discover more. Belief, when considering the beginning of everything, bases it's answer on belief. Philosophy breeds more philosophy, belief requires that you believe.

The point that I am trying to make is that it is just as irrational to say 'Science, prove the Universe came into existance without God doing it' as it to say 'Religion, prove God exists and created everything.'

I don't expect believers to have the answer to everything about God, belief, faith, why things happen the way they do, why good things happen to bad people, why bad things happen to good people, how God can allow innocents to suffer, and so on and so on.

Thus, I won't accept believers then saying to me 'Because science can't answer everything, it's all wrong!' as being credible.

3. "I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day?"

I NEVER said evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. I said that evolution does not address the creation of matter (or the creation of the Universe, if you prefer) because it concerns the changes in life, not the physics of matter/energy interactions.

As for where life began? Well, there is evidence found in the earliest fossils that certain chemical muds could potentially have created a template for basic RNA-like molecules that were able to self-replicate, that may have started the whole chain. Doesn't mean that's what happened, ALSO doesn't mean it isn't what happened.

4. "there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys."

Common misconception - Science does not prove anything, it seeks to find the most plausible answer, and always stays open to new information, new explanations.

Religion doesn't prove anything either. But it does ask you accept something as true. Science does not - it asks you to accept something as the best explanation we have at the moment, based on observable evidence.

5. "If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans?"

Why should they? The whole theory of evolution is based on radical differentiation, diversity and niche specialisation. Evolution would be a lot less plausible if all apes DID evolve into humans. Might as well ask 'why didn't all apes evolve into orang utans?' or 'why did God bother to make so many different kinds of animal when humans only need maybe 20 different sorts?'

6. "Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"

You believe it's a stretch, and that's cool. I believe it's more of a stretch to believe in God as fact (and please note - I believe in neither the existance nor non-existance of God.) I also think it's pure hubris to believe that if an omnipotent being exists that any one human has a hope of understand that being's desires, plans or meaning.

As for why hasn't it happened many times before - again, why should it? Once life exists on earth, it's here. What, it has to be wiped out and begun again for evolution to have credibility?

Let's rephrase your question and see if it makes more sense!
"If God had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"

[/quote]

This is quite a wordy statement, but from what I have briefly gathered, it appears you and I do find common ground on something. And, that is merely that science doesn't prove anything, but merely searches to explain existence in the most plausible manner. This is why I believe it's just as much of a faith-based concept to believe science is the end all and the only answer. There is a belief in science. They is faith in man to use science to explain nature, which is putting faith in a flawed being. It's really no different from having faith in creationism.