Greg wrote:Arianddu wrote:
Evolution doesn't account for the existance of matter in the first place, because evolution is an explanation of how biological organisms alter over time based on adaption to new circumstances, and not the physics of energy-matter interactions. Your question makes as much sense as asking "How does Bush's economic theory account for European Bison populations in the 10th Century."
And to forstall the next question (ok, how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place) I have one for you - how do believers explain the creation of God? You can't provide an answer with any kind of evidence or explanaition beyond 'I believe...' That's why it's called 'Belief' not 'Proof'.
Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. The question you imposed is who created God? The answer would be no higher power created God. God would be the highest power you could get. If something created God, then that something would be God.
But, CPC's question actually does make a lot of sense and is in fact quite similar to your question. How did all of these organisms begin? I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day? Something had bound to have created them. And, in regards to "proof", well, there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys. I've always posed this question that has never been truly answered with proof. If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans? Or, if we came from fish like organisms, why didn't all fish evolve into humans? It doesn't compute.
Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?
Ok, couple of points:
1. "Well, let's all assume that we all agreed that God does exist. "
No. No, no, no, no. I've said it before, I will say it again - you cannot argue faith and science together - they work on fundamentally different rules.
If I believe in God THEN I can explain what I see around me as being controlled by the Divine. But my belief in God has to come first, and it is NOT essential for me to believe in God to find rational, viable explanaitions for the world I see.
2. "The question you imposed is who created God?"
No, I didn't impose a question, I provided a philosophical parallel - Someone asks me 'how do scientists explain the existance of matter in the first place?' to which I respond 'how do believers explain the existance of God in first place?', or 'who created God?'
In fact, it's not fair to pose the questions, because they are based on fundamentally different ways of coming to an answer. Science , when considering the beginging of everything, looks at what goes on around us, tries to come up with an answer based on what we currently know, currently understand, and adapts it as we learn more, discover more. Belief, when considering the beginning of everything, bases it's answer on belief. Philosophy breeds more philosophy, belief requires that you believe.
The point that I am trying to make is that it is just as irrational to say 'Science, prove the Universe came into existance without God doing it' as it to say 'Religion,
prove God exists and created everything.'
I don't expect believers to have the answer to everything about God, belief, faith, why things happen the way they do, why good things happen to bad people, why bad things happen to good people, how God can allow innocents to suffer, and so on and so on.
Thus, I won't accept believers then saying to me 'Because science can't answer everything, it's all wrong!' as being credible.
3. "I do agree with you, evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. But, you never answered, what did? Did these organisms just appear one day?"
I
NEVER said evolution does not explain the creation of organisms. I said that evolution does not address the creation of matter (or the creation of the Universe, if you prefer) because it concerns the changes in life, not the physics of matter/energy interactions.
As for where life began? Well, there is evidence found in the earliest fossils that certain chemical muds could potentially have created a template for basic RNA-like molecules that were able to self-replicate, that may have started the whole chain. Doesn't mean that's what happened, ALSO doesn't mean it
isn't what happened.
4. "there is no proof that we came from fish or monkeys."
Common misconception - Science does not
prove anything, it seeks to find the most plausible answer, and always stays open to new information, new explanations.
Religion doesn't prove anything either. But it does ask you accept something as
true. Science does not - it asks you to accept something as the best explanation we have at the moment, based on observable evidence.
5. "If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans?"
Why should they? The whole theory of evolution is based on radical differentiation, diversity and niche specialisation. Evolution would be a lot less plausible if all apes DID evolve into humans. Might as well ask 'why didn't all apes evolve into orang utans?' or 'why did God bother to make so many different kinds of animal when humans only need maybe 20 different sorts?'
6. "Actually, when you look at the Earth around you, I believe it's quite a stretch to believe it all just happened to fall into place perfectly. If nature had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"
You believe it's a stretch, and that's cool. I believe it's more of a stretch to believe in God as fact (and please note - I believe in neither the existance nor non-existance of God.) I also think it's pure hubris to believe that if an omnipotent being exists that any one human has a hope of understand that being's desires, plans or meaning.
As for why hasn't it happened many times before - again, why should it? Once life exists on earth, it's here. What, it has to be wiped out and begun again for evolution to have credibility?
Let's rephrase your question and see if it makes more sense!
"If God had the only hand in this, why hasn't this happened many times before?"
Why treat life as a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in an attractive & well-preserved body? Get there by skidding in sideways, a glass of wine in one hand, chocolate in the other, body totally worn out, screaming WOOHOO! What a ride!