Has Anybody Read ALL of THIS?

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Has Anybody Read ALL of THIS?

Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:13 am

From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:15 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound


I am just back from Sweden Rock Festival, one of Europe's biggest hard
rock festivals. At the festival, I was working for Swedish Radio as a
producer for some of the live recordings done for the radio. Normally,
I am a live sound engineer but once a year, I tag along with my old
friends at Swedish Radio to have some fun on this great festival.

The biggest topic of discussion among our crew during the festival was
without doubt the Journey show. Things started off weird in the
afternoon when we realised that not only had they brought their
producer and studio engineer Kevin Elson along to mix the show, he had
also set up his FOH world at the very back of the house, backstage! He
was standing behind our recording truck with his stuff, listening to
the mix through two stage wedges standing on top of his console.

We were recording the show for the radio and the SRF dvd but beside our
48 track Pro Tools recording, we were told by Elson numerous times that
we also needed to record his mix that went to the PA. Fine, an extra
stand alone CD recorder was brought in.

I watched the show from out front and had a great time. The band
sounded excellent. I decided to watch the rest of the show from the
recording truck. Good sound and tv monitors with a feed from the big
screen out front. Even better than watching in your living room. :^) I
went backstage and on the way, I checked out Kevin Elson in action at
the same time.

When I got into the truck, our engineers was making funny faces and
saying things like, "poor guy!" Lead singer Steve Augeri could not sing
at all! No, it's not the old rethoric of calling a singer with a bad
day someone who "can't sing". Steve Augeri was constantly out of tune
and when he tried to reach the high parts, his voice just died in a sad
croak. But didn't it sound good in the PA out front? I went out to
check again. Yes, the vocals sounded terrific. Was I going insane?

I went back into the bus and the engineers started to question my
sanity too as nothing could be done out front to fix this disaster. The
main project manager for our business at the festival showed up and was
as surprised and puzzled as I was when he heard what was coming down
that vocal line to the truck.

After a lot of running back and forth and scratching of heads, one of
the recording engineers plugged in a pair of headphones into the CD
recorder that was recording Elson's house mix. In that mix, the vocals
were perfect. With one headphone on and the other listening to our feed
in the bus it was obvious that something fishy was going on.

We looked at our surveillance camera on stage and noticed a guy sitting
a bit out of place to the left of the drum tech. I went up on stage to
have a look and there was a guy with two digital multitrack recorders,
apparently sending a prerecorded, correct vocal to the house mix but
not to our bus. There were also some prerecorded synth pads and backing
vocals but we got those to the bus.

This raised so many questions and things running in our heads:

* This was not a temporary solution to help a guy having a bad day on
tour. You don't bring that rack with recorders and one extra guy on
tour to have a backup in case the singer gets a cold. Ok, the rack and
the operatot could have been flown in but wouldn't it have been easier
to just cancel the show if the guy was sick?

* Another thing suggesting this was not just a guy with a bad throat
was that in our feed, the "real" live vocal line, Mr. Augeri was not
holding back like he probably should have done if he had a bad throat.
He was launching head first into the performance screaming his lungs
off. If he has a throat problem, it will only get worse by this
behaviour.

* Neal Schon of Journey has said in interviews that Augeri had throat
problems on the last tour, forcing them to use the drummer to sing lead
vocals on some songs. On the last album, Augeri sings half the songs
and the other members sing the rest. "Because it was fun" according to
interviews with band members. Yeah, maybe so but maybe also to help a
singer who can't sing?

* If the singer really is this bad, why not just kick him out?

* The other band members put on a stellar show. How do they feel on the
bus every night knowing they have to substitute their singer with a
tape? How fun can that be?

* How could Kevin Elson think that our recording engineers wouldn't
notice anything? Wouldn't it have been easier to feed the prerecorded
vocals to our bus too, or just deny us to record the band. We get to
record many bands but there are those that refuse too, without giving
any particular reasons. The first time one of our engineers went out to
talk to Elson during the show, Elson had the fixed vocals in his
monitors but he told our guy that "we probably have to take this home
and fix the vocals", as if Augeri had a bad day. Why lie a colleague
right in the face like that? Later, the cd from the FOH mix was
approved for broadcast the next day. No fixing needed because it was
already fixed.

I don't have any strong feelings against spicing up a live show with
some fatter backing vocals or backup things that makes the show better
but substituting the lead vocals? Reverse karaoke? I'm a big Journey
fan and I don't get sad or angry, just very confused.

/Svante

Reply


From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:34 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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I put up some blurry pictures:

Kevin Elson mixing backstage, our recording truck in the background:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05055.JPG
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05056.JPG

The guy in the blue cap to the left of the drum tech is handling the
multitrack machines:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05060.JPG

/Svante
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:15 am

Not only have I read it, I talk to him daily.
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:18 am

This shocked the hell out of me. I considered Rockndeano's claim that this was going on, but I didn't expect to see it confirmed by people in the business. Those guys were actually working with Journey's sound crew. I expected more of Journey than this. I gotta say I'm floored!
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:23 am

You must have been posting same time I was, RDO. I'm scratching my head on this one, man. I don't understand with all that talent, how they could get themselves into a situation like this and drag the fans through it too. Isn't there some code of conduct or something that prevents bands from screwing the public like that?
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Postby Lennie » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:39 am

rather than discussing it again why not go to the 'frontpage' and read the 'The Definitive Proof' thread.

Enough said about it already really.

cheers
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Postby NYer » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:43 am

It's really starting to unravel.
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:44 am

Hey Lennie, did Andrew suddenly pass away and leave you in charge? Go fuck off. Look, I didn't bring "THIS" up, I merely responded. Look Douche, if you don't want to read it don't. Dumb bastard.
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Postby Liz22562 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:44 am

And Andrew has asked to knock it off. But then what do you care what he asks. Same old crap - different day.
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:59 am

Thanks for the heads up Lennie. A buddy sent me the link to that post and I didn't see it here. RDO brought it up a few weeks ago, but was blown off as crazy or whatever. I thought some of you guys might be as knocked out as I was when I read this from some definitive sources. I mean why not discuss it on a music forum since it is obviously happening. I take it I'm the only one who paid some bucks to see them the last few years? I'm a pre-Perry fan and have always respected the quality of what they brought. If you're getting too old to cut it, then take your millions and retire, but don't lie to the people that supported you since your first damn CD.
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Postby Paul_UK » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:05 am

Yet ANOTHER post on the subject and ANOTHER school yard name calling session, both of Andrew's wishes pissed on. Unbelievable. :roll:
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Postby augeri1 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:07 am

Rockn'deano wrote:Hey Lennie, did Andrew suddenly pass away and leave you in charge? Go fuck off. Look, I didn't bring "THIS" up, I merely responded. Look Douche, if you don't want to read it don't. Dumb bastard.

Little anal today Deano? Why is it that you get the privilege of personal attacks?
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:10 am

How is what I said a personal attack. Lennie was out of line trying to moderate the board, so I bitchslapped him. He is now better because of it.

Liz, get off my back.

Penny, Blow me.

After next week, there likely won't be a Journey board, once the "news" is handed out.
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Postby Liz22562 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:12 am

:twisted:
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:15 am

augeri1 wrote:Little anal today Deano? Why is it that you get the privilege of personal attacks?


Because Andrew likes me and he thinks you are a stupid Twit. :lol:

As soon as you are ready to civilly debate this, email me.
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Postby augeri1 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:22 am

Rockn'deano wrote:How is what I said a personal attack. Lennie was out of line trying to moderate the board, so I bitchslapped him. He is now better because of it.

Liz, get off my back.

Penny, Blow me.

After next week, there likely won't be a Journey board, once the "news" is handed out.

:lol: out of line? And you've never been? If getting out of line results in the need to bitchslap, you'd have been a permanent spot on forum rug by now.

As for me, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but blow you? If the love tool matches the rest of your body in that self portrait avatar you have...might wanna call on Tammy..I miss Tammy :wink:
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Postby NealIsGod » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:24 am

Hey, keep the high school stuff in PMs so we don't get locked down again please. It's obvious who is trying to get the board shut down. Just fucking stop, ok?
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Postby augeri1 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:25 am

Rockn'deano wrote:
augeri1 wrote:Little anal today Deano? Why is it that you get the privilege of personal attacks?


Because Andrew likes me and he thinks you are a stupid Twit. :lol:


you forgot "Buffoon" :lol:
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Postby augeri1 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:34 am

NealIsGod wrote:Hey, keep the high school stuff in PMs so we don't get locked down again please. It's obvious who is trying to get the board shut down. Just fucking stop, ok?

That would be me? Not hardly NIG..your one of the good one's left in this forum..I don't want to take away anybody's Journey home..I just want a muzzle put on Deano and his followers..who apparently don't have to follow the rules like everyone else.

So, if I stop posting, all the personal attacks will stop? The Steve bashing? The Journey Bashing? hmmmm Ok..outta respect for you and the good guys/gals here..I'll just lurk..back to "debating and freedom of speech" now. My apologies.
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:37 am

NealIsGod wrote:Hey, keep the high school stuff in PMs so we don't get locked down again please. It's obvious who is trying to get the board shut down. Just fucking stop, ok?


Oh fuck me, NIG. I don't want this board shut down. Not at all.

I even brought over a couple of songs, not to argue them, but to extend an olive branch. Your buddy shot me down, and now we will never be buddies again. I am adamant in this now.
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Postby NealIsGod » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:40 am

Rockn'deano wrote:
NealIsGod wrote:Hey, keep the high school stuff in PMs so we don't get locked down again please. It's obvious who is trying to get the board shut down. Just fucking stop, ok?


Oh fuck me, NIG. I don't want this board shut down. Not at all.

I even brought over a couple of songs, not to argue them, but to extend an olive branch. Your buddy shot me down, and now we will never be buddies again. I am adamant in this now.


Why do you want to extend an olive branch? You hate Journey now. Why do you continue to post here? To promote your blog?
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:41 am

I don't hate Journey. I love Journey. I am just pissed at Journey. Got that?
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:59 am

I don't understand why if a person is not happy about what they did to them as a ticket holder, buyer, whatever, they now hate Journey. Can you not just be flattened by their lack of respect for you or by their desire to get a fat check while thinking these idiots at our concerts aren't going to figure this out? What about years of telling your friends how these guys were better than any other band out there LIVE? It makes me feel like I was as gulible as they hoped I'd be and I don't like that feeling. So why not be pissed or disappointed in their integrity or whatever? I think everybody has to make that call for themselves, but why shoot the messenger?
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Postby Liz22562 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:19 am

OMG, STOP IT ALREADY! Geez, I for one could care less if you like Journey or not. Don't tell me who I can and can't listen too for goodness sake. IT'S MY MONEY.

(Well, I was trying to yell, but I'm not sure I gave that effect, nice try though, huh)?
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:29 am

Liz, I think you have misread my post. I wrote about getting this information sent to me and what I thought of it. If your idea of fair play and artistic expression includes lip synching bands, then have at it. I won't tell you or anyone not to pay them for it. That is your wallet. I think this board is for civil discussion, which I was doing and will continue in that vein. Please don't have a coronary over my post. :D
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Postby Liz22562 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:58 am

Heck...no problem here EightyRock. There is absolutely no way I would let a bunch of posters that I don't know get to me. I'm a tad bit old to let something this silly wreak havoc on my physical well being.

It's all good. Can't we just agree to disagree - regardless of the outcome?
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Postby EightyRock » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Yes, of course.
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Postby Liz22562 » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:13 pm

Thank you kindly!
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Re: Has Anybody Read ALL of THIS?

Postby bionic » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:43 pm

EightyRock wrote:From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:15 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound


I am just back from Sweden Rock Festival, one of Europe's biggest hard
rock festivals. At the festival, I was working for Swedish Radio as a
producer for some of the live recordings done for the radio. Normally,
I am a live sound engineer but once a year, I tag along with my old
friends at Swedish Radio to have some fun on this great festival.

The biggest topic of discussion among our crew during the festival was
without doubt the Journey show. Things started off weird in the
afternoon when we realised that not only had they brought their
producer and studio engineer Kevin Elson along to mix the show, he had
also set up his FOH world at the very back of the house, backstage! He
was standing behind our recording truck with his stuff, listening to
the mix through two stage wedges standing on top of his console.

We were recording the show for the radio and the SRF dvd but beside our
48 track Pro Tools recording, we were told by Elson numerous times that
we also needed to record his mix that went to the PA. Fine, an extra
stand alone CD recorder was brought in.

I watched the show from out front and had a great time. The band
sounded excellent. I decided to watch the rest of the show from the
recording truck. Good sound and tv monitors with a feed from the big
screen out front. Even better than watching in your living room. :^) I
went backstage and on the way, I checked out Kevin Elson in action at
the same time.

When I got into the truck, our engineers was making funny faces and
saying things like, "poor guy!" Lead singer Steve Augeri could not sing
at all! No, it's not the old rethoric of calling a singer with a bad
day someone who "can't sing". Steve Augeri was constantly out of tune
and when he tried to reach the high parts, his voice just died in a sad
croak. But didn't it sound good in the PA out front? I went out to
check again. Yes, the vocals sounded terrific. Was I going insane?

I went back into the bus and the engineers started to question my
sanity too as nothing could be done out front to fix this disaster. The
main project manager for our business at the festival showed up and was
as surprised and puzzled as I was when he heard what was coming down
that vocal line to the truck.

After a lot of running back and forth and scratching of heads, one of
the recording engineers plugged in a pair of headphones into the CD
recorder that was recording Elson's house mix. In that mix, the vocals
were perfect. With one headphone on and the other listening to our feed
in the bus it was obvious that something fishy was going on.

We looked at our surveillance camera on stage and noticed a guy sitting
a bit out of place to the left of the drum tech. I went up on stage to
have a look and there was a guy with two digital multitrack recorders,
apparently sending a prerecorded, correct vocal to the house mix but
not to our bus. There were also some prerecorded synth pads and backing
vocals but we got those to the bus.

This raised so many questions and things running in our heads:

* This was not a temporary solution to help a guy having a bad day on
tour. You don't bring that rack with recorders and one extra guy on
tour to have a backup in case the singer gets a cold. Ok, the rack and
the operatot could have been flown in but wouldn't it have been easier
to just cancel the show if the guy was sick?

* Another thing suggesting this was not just a guy with a bad throat
was that in our feed, the "real" live vocal line, Mr. Augeri was not
holding back like he probably should have done if he had a bad throat.
He was launching head first into the performance screaming his lungs
off. If he has a throat problem, it will only get worse by this
behaviour.

* Neal Schon of Journey has said in interviews that Augeri had throat
problems on the last tour, forcing them to use the drummer to sing lead
vocals on some songs. On the last album, Augeri sings half the songs
and the other members sing the rest. "Because it was fun" according to
interviews with band members. Yeah, maybe so but maybe also to help a
singer who can't sing?

* If the singer really is this bad, why not just kick him out?

* The other band members put on a stellar show. How do they feel on the
bus every night knowing they have to substitute their singer with a
tape? How fun can that be?

* How could Kevin Elson think that our recording engineers wouldn't
notice anything? Wouldn't it have been easier to feed the prerecorded
vocals to our bus too, or just deny us to record the band. We get to
record many bands but there are those that refuse too, without giving
any particular reasons. The first time one of our engineers went out to
talk to Elson during the show, Elson had the fixed vocals in his
monitors but he told our guy that "we probably have to take this home
and fix the vocals", as if Augeri had a bad day. Why lie a colleague
right in the face like that? Later, the cd from the FOH mix was
approved for broadcast the next day. No fixing needed because it was
already fixed.

I don't have any strong feelings against spicing up a live show with
some fatter backing vocals or backup things that makes the show better
but substituting the lead vocals? Reverse karaoke? I'm a big Journey
fan and I don't get sad or angry, just very confused.

/Svante

Reply


From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:34 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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I put up some blurry pictures:

Kevin Elson mixing backstage, our recording truck in the background:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05055.JPG
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05056.JPG

The guy in the blue cap to the left of the drum tech is handling the
multitrack machines:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05060.JPG

/Svante
I would add that a friend of mine went to Sewden Rock to do a review for a magazine and spoke to the promoters of Sweden Rock they said quote 'If we had known the band were going to mime we would not have booked them!' I also asked him as a Journey fan what he thought,he said that yes apart from the guitars and drums all the vocals were lipped(not sure if he meant Deans?) and that they were not evan miming that well??
Take into consideration this guy is a fan who like myself has trevelled to see the band and that he had backstage access and spoke to the guys from Sweden Rock.Surely this cannot be one big conspiracy theory to many people are saying the same thing..me i am devastated that this is/could be true....what happened guys? :cry:
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Postby bionic » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:44 pm

EightyRock wrote:Thanks for the heads up Lennie. A buddy sent me the link to that post and I didn't see it here. RDO brought it up a few weeks ago, but was blown off as crazy or whatever. I thought some of you guys might be as knocked out as I was when I read this from some definitive sources. I mean why not discuss it on a music forum since it is obviously happening. I take it I'm the only one who paid some bucks to see them the last few years? I'm a pre-Perry fan and have always respected the quality of what they brought. If you're getting too old to cut it, then take your millions and retire, but don't lie to the people that supported you since your first damn CD.


Well said sir! 8)
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Re: Has Anybody Read ALL of THIS?

Postby Abitaman » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:26 pm

bionic wrote:
EightyRock wrote:From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:15 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound


I am just back from Sweden Rock Festival, one of Europe's biggest hard
rock festivals. At the festival, I was working for Swedish Radio as a
producer for some of the live recordings done for the radio. Normally,
I am a live sound engineer but once a year, I tag along with my old
friends at Swedish Radio to have some fun on this great festival.

The biggest topic of discussion among our crew during the festival was
without doubt the Journey show. Things started off weird in the
afternoon when we realised that not only had they brought their
producer and studio engineer Kevin Elson along to mix the show, he had
also set up his FOH world at the very back of the house, backstage! He
was standing behind our recording truck with his stuff, listening to
the mix through two stage wedges standing on top of his console.

We were recording the show for the radio and the SRF dvd but beside our
48 track Pro Tools recording, we were told by Elson numerous times that
we also needed to record his mix that went to the PA. Fine, an extra
stand alone CD recorder was brought in.

I watched the show from out front and had a great time. The band
sounded excellent. I decided to watch the rest of the show from the
recording truck. Good sound and tv monitors with a feed from the big
screen out front. Even better than watching in your living room. :^) I
went backstage and on the way, I checked out Kevin Elson in action at
the same time.

When I got into the truck, our engineers was making funny faces and
saying things like, "poor guy!" Lead singer Steve Augeri could not sing
at all! No, it's not the old rethoric of calling a singer with a bad
day someone who "can't sing". Steve Augeri was constantly out of tune
and when he tried to reach the high parts, his voice just died in a sad
croak. But didn't it sound good in the PA out front? I went out to
check again. Yes, the vocals sounded terrific. Was I going insane?

I went back into the bus and the engineers started to question my
sanity too as nothing could be done out front to fix this disaster. The
main project manager for our business at the festival showed up and was
as surprised and puzzled as I was when he heard what was coming down
that vocal line to the truck.

After a lot of running back and forth and scratching of heads, one of
the recording engineers plugged in a pair of headphones into the CD
recorder that was recording Elson's house mix. In that mix, the vocals
were perfect. With one headphone on and the other listening to our feed
in the bus it was obvious that something fishy was going on.

We looked at our surveillance camera on stage and noticed a guy sitting
a bit out of place to the left of the drum tech. I went up on stage to
have a look and there was a guy with two digital multitrack recorders,
apparently sending a prerecorded, correct vocal to the house mix but
not to our bus. There were also some prerecorded synth pads and backing
vocals but we got those to the bus.

This raised so many questions and things running in our heads:

* This was not a temporary solution to help a guy having a bad day on
tour. You don't bring that rack with recorders and one extra guy on
tour to have a backup in case the singer gets a cold. Ok, the rack and
the operatot could have been flown in but wouldn't it have been easier
to just cancel the show if the guy was sick?

* Another thing suggesting this was not just a guy with a bad throat
was that in our feed, the "real" live vocal line, Mr. Augeri was not
holding back like he probably should have done if he had a bad throat.
He was launching head first into the performance screaming his lungs
off. If he has a throat problem, it will only get worse by this
behaviour.

* Neal Schon of Journey has said in interviews that Augeri had throat
problems on the last tour, forcing them to use the drummer to sing lead
vocals on some songs. On the last album, Augeri sings half the songs
and the other members sing the rest. "Because it was fun" according to
interviews with band members. Yeah, maybe so but maybe also to help a
singer who can't sing?

* If the singer really is this bad, why not just kick him out?

* The other band members put on a stellar show. How do they feel on the
bus every night knowing they have to substitute their singer with a
tape? How fun can that be?

* How could Kevin Elson think that our recording engineers wouldn't
notice anything? Wouldn't it have been easier to feed the prerecorded
vocals to our bus too, or just deny us to record the band. We get to
record many bands but there are those that refuse too, without giving
any particular reasons. The first time one of our engineers went out to
talk to Elson during the show, Elson had the fixed vocals in his
monitors but he told our guy that "we probably have to take this home
and fix the vocals", as if Augeri had a bad day. Why lie a colleague
right in the face like that? Later, the cd from the FOH mix was
approved for broadcast the next day. No fixing needed because it was
already fixed.

I don't have any strong feelings against spicing up a live show with
some fatter backing vocals or backup things that makes the show better
but substituting the lead vocals? Reverse karaoke? I'm a big Journey
fan and I don't get sad or angry, just very confused.

/Svante

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From: Svante Pettersson - view profile
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 12:34 am
Email: "Svante Pettersson" <svante.petters...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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I put up some blurry pictures:

Kevin Elson mixing backstage, our recording truck in the background:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05055.JPG
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05056.JPG

The guy in the blue cap to the left of the drum tech is handling the
multitrack machines:
http://www.blackpage.se/journey/DSC05060.JPG

/Svante
I would add that a friend of mine went to Sewden Rock to do a review for a magazine and spoke to the promoters of Sweden Rock they said quote 'If we had known the band were going to mime we would not have booked them!' I also asked him as a Journey fan what he thought,he said that yes apart from the guitars and drums all the vocals were lipped(not sure if he meant Deans?) and that they were not evan miming that well??
Take into consideration this guy is a fan who like myself has trevelled to see the band and that he had backstage access and spoke to the guys from Sweden Rock.Surely this cannot be one big conspiracy theory to many people are saying the same thing..me i am devastated that this is/could be true....what happened guys? :cry:


how many time you goung to repeat this
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