BackTalk Creator Weighs In:

[ohsherrie]

lol

Does this mean my membership in your new forum is revoked?

[*Laura]

Well, I think this thread went well.

Yeah,you're in a way responsible for the re-birth of the original Journey Forums,which is a good thing.
Between this and the "accusation" of igniting Tapegate...LOL.

Don't worry,you're innocent.

[MartyMoffatt]

Now let me say first of all that I do not condone ANYTHING that went on in that thread. I wasn't aware of it and had I been I or another Mod would probably have done something about it a while ago. Some of the comments were inexcusable, particularly dragging a band member into it and attacking MR and Andrew. Unfortunately, we opened up the BACKTALK section of BT to allow people to work out their differences with a minimum of moderation, and it went too far in this particular thread. It seems we're damned if we do step in and damned if we don't.

However, as bad as that thread was, it was no worse than probably 25% of threads here over the past few months. Why the double standards? Why is it seen as free speech to lash out at anyody here but as soon as it happens elsewhere it's a terrible travesty.

My condolences for your loss Andrew, and I agree with you people need to get a grip on reality. There is more to life than messageboards.

Some people on BT do need to grow up. Some people here need to as well.

Marty

[frfksakes]

Fucking disappointing and downright sad is what it is.

DITTO!!

and excellent post from Frank. Except; the kooks, idiots and assholes at backtalk are not all women. While greatly outnumbered, some of the biggest jerks at least claim they have penises.

Well, been down this road a handful of times in this thread....I totally agree that BT has had its share of male antagonists...

I'm just saying the character of fighting over there that has really eaten the place from the inside is inherently female. Male antagonists are more trollish or agressive in nature....Not only that, but I would submit, conservatively, that a good 75% of back talk is female anyway.

Regardless, not looking to piss off the women...I *love* women....all kinds...really, I do...

LOL, no doubt. Wasn't complaining, just chiming in. my bad for not reading all of the posts.
And I am by no means an expert. BT never did anything for me but make me puke from all of the wiggle talk. But the few times that I did visit, I had the most neg. experiences with the men. Probably the only few times there were guys logged in, lol.

It's sad the band can't be a part of something like MR, it would be a blast. But looking at how JSS has been treated, I can understand their reluctance.

(JSS - PLEASE don't let a few idiots ruin your visits. Most of us are have a blast when you're chiming in.)

Happy New Year everyone! I'm out of here for a while... again...

[Enigma869]

However, as bad as that thread was, it was no worse than probably 25% of threads here over the past few months. Why the double standards? Why is it seen as free speech to lash out at anyody here but as soon as it happens elsewhere it's a terrible travesty.


Marty

Marty...

I think there really isn't much of a "double standard", as you put it. This site isn't moderated very heavily, at all, and everyone knows that. The reality is that BT has always been a site who doesn't allow anyone to have an opinion that the majority of the posters and the mods share. This is the only reason the question was ever raised why that thread was allowed to remain open. If BT was a site that actually allowed and encouraged open discussion, I'm not sure as many people would have questioned that thread remaining open, but BT has a very strong history of NEVER EVER allowing attacks on current band members! Perry was always fair game, but he is a former member, so I guess that made it ok, but as far as I know Deen is still a member of the band.

I admire your crusade to make the world love BT and make everyone think it's not the communist society that it is. That said, I think another poster said it here earlier...you should save your energy, because unless that site undergoes some serious changes and doesn't allow mods to dictate what opinions are allowed to be expressed, it will continue to be a complete embarrassment to most Journey fans!

John from Boston

[MartyMoffatt]

[Marty...

I think there really isn't much of a "double standard", as you put it. This site isn't moderated very heavily, at all, and everyone knows that. The reality is that BT has always been a site who doesn't allow anyone to have an opinion that the majority of the posters and the mods share. This is the only reason the question was ever raised why that thread was allowed to remain open. If BT was a site that actually allowed and encouraged open discussion, I'm not sure as many people would have questioned that thread remaining open, but BT has a very strong history of NEVER EVER allowing attacks on current band members! Perry was always fair game, but he is a former member, so I guess that made it ok, but as far as I know Deen is still a member of the band.

I admire your crusade to make the world love BT and make everyone think it's not the communist society that it is. That said, I think another poster said it here earlier...you should save your energy, because unless that site undergoes some serious changes and doesn't allow mods to dictate what opinions are allowed to be expressed, it will continue to be a complete embarrassment to most Journey fans!

John from Boston

The Backtalk section on BT was opened up specifically to allow and encourage open discussion. So as I said, it seems we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I don't want the world to love BT. There is a lot that goes on there that I don't like. But I also think that the venom that is exuded from here towards it is often disproportionate. OK, it is not a forum many people here have any time for, fair enough, so why don't they just ignore it? Why keep sticking the boot in at every conceivable opportunity ad infinitum? I'm not saying BT is all things light and MR is the devil reincarnate, just trying to provide a little balance and play devil's advocate once in a while. People get so wrapped up in the belief that they are always right they need to get some perspective.

Marty

[Rockindeano]

The Backtalk section on BT was opened up specifically to allow and encourage open discussion. So as I said, it seems we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

What Bullshit, Marty. Yeah, open it up for more open discussion, as long as the posters are hand picked. Why the Hell can I not participate there? Seriously? I never once muttered a cuss word there. Yeah, shade your eyes with the "open debate" moniker, and hope we cannot see that it's a hand picked board. What a joke.

I don't want the world to love BT. There is a lot that goes on there that I don't like. But I also think that the venom that is exuded from here towards it is often disproportionate. OK, it is not a forum many people here have any time for, fair enough, so why don't they just ignore it? Why keep sticking the boot in at every conceivable opportunity ad infinitum?

I'll tell you why we give a shit why BT become a less embarrassing place. Because we are real fans here. We don't want Sally Housewife or Joe six pack, just exiting a great show with JSS leading, think to themselves, "Honey, let's get home and google Journey's site and check out some info" and finally do it, and come up with the shit that is BackTalk. THAT's why we want a better official site.

People get so wrapped up in the belief that they are always right they need to get some perspective.

If you aren't going to fight if you think you're right, then why the fuck live life at all?

[ohsherrie]

OK, it is not a forum many people here have any time for, fair enough, so why don't they just ignore it? Why keep sticking the boot in at every conceivable opportunity ad infinitum?

Marty

Because Marty, we're Journey fans and that's the Official Journey Website. It shouldn't be limited to just a certain segment of the Journey fanbase.

[Andrew]

Some people on BT do need to grow up.

Perhaps it would be more wise for some to stop flinging mud at me, Deen, Deano and anyone else they care to blame for a certain situation and look a little closer to home.

[txfirefighter]

Some people on BT do need to grow up.

Perhaps it would be more wise for some to stop flinging mud at me, Deen, Deano and anyone else they care to blame for a certain situation and look a little closer to home.

Amen.

[ohsherrie]

Some people on BT do need to grow up.

Perhaps it would be more wise for some to stop flinging mud at me, Deen, Deano and anyone else they care to blame for a certain situation and look a little closer to home.

You guys are swimming upstream in an Egyptian river. Wish I had a lifeboat.

[Enigma869]

OK, it is not a forum many people here have any time for, fair enough, so why don't they just ignore it? Why keep sticking the boot in at every conceivable opportunity ad infinitum?

I hate to sound like a broken record here, because it's already been said....We don't "ignore" it because it's the "official site" of Journey! The reality is that many of us have been fans since Perry joined the band, and some go back to the very beginning. That means our opinions shouldn't be any less valid than the wiggle weirdos who became fans because they liked red leather pants!

Also, for the record, I posted here that I thought it was a positive sign for the "official site" when they opened up the BT forum. Any forum that allows people to actually have open discussions is always a positive thing, in my opinion. I definitely don't think your line of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" applies, at all. I personally think many of the Augeri fans on that site are complete WACK JOBS and are completely clueless about what they're saying about Castronovo. That said, I still defend their right to express their opinions. The only real mystery has been why such venom was allowed, when somebody saying something as tame as "I prefer Perry" were grounds for being banned from the place?

John from Boston

[Liz22562]

Ohsherrie - Please forgive me but I forgot to add that I was in no way attacking you or anything you said. Your opinions about past events are your own and I respect your right to address them in any way that you prefer.

I was only trying to shed some light on why some posters and/or readers "snap" the way they do. Unfortunately, being the written word and unless you are extremely eloquent at conveying a message in print - it is very hard to hear ones 'tone' when typing an opinion or statement, etc. For example (if I may) I learned a long time ago (when I first joined these message boards) that there are a few long-timers (Monker & TNC to be specific) here that will quickly tackle anything you print if you are not SPECIFIC and EXACT as to your meaning when posting. Generalizations can lead anyone to assume something totally different than what was meant by the author. Unfortunately, I believe the old adage "mean what you say, say what you mean' come into play.

Peace to all~

[larryfromnextdoor]

OK, it is not a forum many people here have any time for, fair enough, so why don't they just ignore it? Why keep sticking the boot in at every conceivable opportunity ad infinitum?

I hate to sound like a broken record here, because it's already been said....We don't "ignore" it because it's the "official site" of Journey! The reality is that many of us have been fans since Perry joined the band, and some go back to the very beginning. That means our opinions shouldn't be any less valid than the wiggle weirdos who became fans because they liked red leather pants!

Also, for the record, I posted here that I thought it was a positive sign for the "official site" when they opened up the BT forum. Any forum that allows people to actually have open discussions is always a positive thing, in my opinion. I definitely don't think your line of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" applies, at all. I personally think many of the Augeri fans on that site are complete WACK JOBS and are completely clueless about what they're saying about Castronovo. That said, I still defend their right to express their opinions. The only real mystery has been why such venom was allowed, when somebody saying something as tame as "I prefer Perry" were grounds for being banned from the place?

John from Boston

no foolin marty , there is no "moderation" there,, either full on throttle hate, or lock it up,, have you noticed,, there are some bizzare statements on BT right now,, certainly is nice for the band to read when the band is so hated there,, only a hand ful mind you ,, but they are getting lots of attention right now..

[Moon Beam]

I had to go to an old friend's funeral Wednesday.
They were killed in a car accident before Chrustmas. THAT is reality.

What a cook-a-hoop this whole thing has been from one particular section of the fanbase.

First off........how tradgic and sad this is Sir, my hearfelt sympathies
tp you and those that loved your friend.

Cook-a-hoop?....that's a new one, kinda different, is that like saying
what a heap of steaming shit?

[tammy]

Andrew, I am very sorry to hear about losing your friends, and so tragically - that is very sad. I hope it is realized that there are real caring people with empathy & sympathy for life behind these message boards...god knows I've cried over many anonymous people's posts with sad stories so I do feel for those....again, I'm sorry.

[Monker]

The dilhema for BT, is that the if the moderators are forced to quell the growing group of unhappy Augeri fans...they will lose some credibility. How can you, for years and years, show an obvious bias against Perry fans...only to be forced to do it again towards the very fans you 'protected' for years and years.

If the band keeps the messsage board up and running, it'll be interesting to see how the mods handle that.

And, in a broader sense, it's JOURNEY's dilhema since they went on for years about "Perry with a Perm", doing whatever to get people to support them. Now, they are basicaly saying, "Oh, yeah, now we like this new guy better!" Then the fans tack on, "and he doesn't sound much like Perry at all!"

IMO, it's going to be a hard sell...both on BT and in a broader sense for fans in general.

[tammy]

Some people on BT do need to grow up.

Perhaps it would be more wise for some to stop flinging mud at me, Deen, Deano and anyone else they care to blame for a certain situation and look a little closer to home.

You guys are swimming upstream in an Egyptian river. Wish I had a lifeboat.

Sherrie, I just told that line to my English Master's degree husband 'cuz I wasn't sure what it meant & he laughed & said that is very clever (he doesn't read this board or know anything about what's going on).

[Monker]

That must've just happened...poor Deen. His character has always been sweet & child-like (that is a compliment!) -- I hope he realizes that many people felt he was just being honest & not intending any insinuations with his story. And I hope that doesn't make him shy away from being open in the future.

Here's CJ's post:


Hello Folks,

I just got off the phone with Deen and he would like to tell you these things:

1: Steve Augeri is a brother and Deen has nothing but love for him.

2: You are reading way too much into the MR interview and his comments.

3:These comments you are making about him not caring about Steve make Deen very unhappy and are simply untrue.

4: He would like you all to know that you are spending way too much of your energy on/over the negatives and would hope that you will all realize that he wishes nothing but the best for Steve, his fans and the band.

[Deen is the most emotional guy with the biggest heart that I know. He gives nothing less than 100% of his heart and talent to his craft. He does not deserve to be nit-picked to death over an interview given. With that in mind, I am closing this topic. If you had made points within this post that do not concern Deen's interview, place them into a new topic, please.]

Cj

You know, if this wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

What did you people EXPECT to happen? This ENTIRE announcement was handled in the most horrible way imaginable. Deen, and the rest of the band, should peak out of Steve Perry's cave and look at the real world around them. They no longer know their own fans if they couldn't see this coming.

[Monker]

Fucking disappointing and downright sad is what it is.

You know what....I don't even care what they are saying about me and this damn feature - they are NOT a reflection of reality, nor of any realm of sanity.
They are only pissy because their wiggler is gone.

I know for a fact that Steve has read the entire feature and he has no problem with it. If he doesn't, then why should this lot have a problem???
And poor Deen.....fuck me.

I had to go to an old friend's funeral Wednesday. They were killed in a car accident before Chrustmas. THAT is reality. Get a freeking life already before it is too late.

As for the proof reading - I picked 3 VERY passionate Journey fans I knew of and 3 professionals that I am friends with/work in the industry. ALL found typos, which was the whole point. They only read the bloody thing, they did not write or edit it to their own adgenda.

What a cook-a-hoop this whole thing has been from one particular section of the fanbase.

How could you NOT have KNOWN that you would have be castrated for involving Dean in this? If you had ANY sense of reality yourself you would have kept Dean out of it to keep credibility with as many fans as possible.

The entire thing has blown up because of these things:

It SEEMS (meaning: whether it is true or not) that the band simply tossed Augeri aside for someone who had a voice they liked better. This is reflected in both the press release and your interviews.

It SEEMS like this decision was made MONTHS ago and the band, thru the offical website, was bullshitting their fans for months.

It SEEMS like 8yrs of the "this is a BAND now" talk was all propaganda and lies. Again, this is reflected in YOUR interviews.

So, when the news hits the fan that you allowed the main instigator of so much hatred towards both BT and Steve Augeri to "proofread" these interviews, OF COURSE you and the interviews are going to drawn into all of the rest of the anger.

Seriously, you are better this Andrew, much better...and smarter. You should have seen this fastball coming towards your head - and ducked.

People compare this to Perry leaving. Well, that's not even close, IMO. They handled that one OK. This is even worse then when Styx fired DeYoung. The only thing that could make this change worse is for somebody to file a lawsuit. I suppose Perry hasn't had his say yet, at least not publicly...so there is still time for that too.

[MJM1959]

I think that the announcement was handled in a businesslike manner. Which may be a point of contention to some. From some of the reactions I read, I got the feeling that some fans felt like they should have had a say in the matter. At the very least, many people feel as if they need to be wet nursed through this catastrophic event in their lives. I read about people actually grieving and crying about it. For God's sake, it a personnel change in a rock band! Get a grip. You accept the change and you move on.

[Monker]

Now let me say first of all that I do not condone ANYTHING that went on in that thread. I wasn't aware of it and had I been I or another Mod would probably have done something about it a while ago. Some of the comments were inexcusable, particularly dragging a band member into it and attacking MR and Andrew. Unfortunately, we opened up the BACKTALK section of BT to allow people to work out their differences with a minimum of moderation, and it went too far in this particular thread. It seems we're damned if we do step in and damned if we don't.

And, that new sub-forum is a good thing. It should have been done at least five years ago. BT deserves credit for making the effort. I find that it's a bit late in the game though...Right now it's basicaly a forum to complain about this latest change.

However, as bad as that thread was, it was no worse than probably 25% of threads here over the past few months. Why the double standards? Why is it seen as free speech to lash out at anyody here but as soon as it happens elsewhere it's a terrible travesty.

I agree with this too. It's pretty hypcritical. Also, if Deen is so sensitive and close to Augeri, why didn't call up Andrew to complain about how Augeri was being talked about ina LOT less 'respectful' way?

[conversationpc]

How could you NOT have KNOWN that you would have be castrated for involving Dean in this? If you had ANY sense of reality yourself you would have kept Dean out of it to keep credibility with as many fans as possible.

I don't think Andrew had any alterior motives for using Deano to proofread the interview. That being said, I agree that it probably wasn't the smartest thing to have him do it, considering his history over the last few months. I don't believe it effected the interview at all but it just doesn't look good. There had to have been others that could have been asked to do this.

It SEEMS (meaning: whether it is true or not) that the band simply tossed Augeri aside for someone who had a voice they liked better. This is reflected in both the press release and your interviews.

Nah, considering that the lip-synching went on for quite a while, it looked to me like they only decided that Augeri had to go when the proverbial shit hit the fan in June or whenever it was. I think they would've stuck it out a bit longer if that had never happened.

So, when the news hits the fan that you allowed the main instigator of so much hatred towards both BT and Steve Augeri to "proofread" these interviews, OF COURSE you and the interviews are going to drawn into all of the rest of the anger.

Seriously, you are better this Andrew, much better...and smarter. You should have seen this fastball coming towards your head - and ducked.

Can't say I disagree with this statement at all.

[Monker]

I think that the announcement was handled in a businesslike manner. Which may be a point of contention to some. From some of the reactions I read, I got the feeling that some fans felt like they should have had a say in the matter. At the very least, many people feel as if they need to be wet nursed through this catastrophic event in their lives. I read about people actually grieving and crying about it. For God's sake, it a personnel change in a rock band! Get a grip. You accept the change and you move on.

That's not whta I get out of any of this AT ALL. I think the people who are all emotional about this feel they have been betrayed and lied to by Journey...and that Augeri was also betrayed. I don't think they wanted their hand held through this announcement...I think they simply expected the band to be honest about what was going on - from the begining...and they are angry that the band wasn't being honest AT ALL.

[ohsherrie]

Ohsherrie - Please forgive me but I forgot to add that I was in no way attacking you or anything you said. Your opinions about past events are your own and I respect your right to address them in any way that you prefer.

I was only trying to shed some light on why some posters and/or readers "snap" the way they do. Unfortunately, being the written word and unless you are extremely eloquent at conveying a message in print - it is very hard to hear ones 'tone' when typing an opinion or statement, etc. For example (if I may) I learned a long time ago (when I first joined these message boards) that there are a few long-timers (Monker & TNC to be specific) here that will quickly tackle anything you print if you are not SPECIFIC and EXACT as to your meaning when posting. Generalizations can lead anyone to assume something totally different than what was meant by the author. Unfortunately, I believe the old adage "mean what you say, say what you mean' come into play.

Peace to all~

You did nothing to apologize for or explain. I didn't take offense at anything you said. I guess my response came off reading a little more firey than I meant it to. I understand perfectly what you're saying about the written word. Sometimes I get a little bit blunt and it sounds testy. Then when I try to elaborate to avoid that I sound a little pompous. I mean what I say, but sometimes it sounds like more than I meant. I don't always say everything that I mean though.

[MartyMoffatt]

Ohsherrie - Please forgive me but I forgot to add that I was in no way attacking you or anything you said. Your opinions about past events are your own and I respect your right to address them in any way that you prefer.

I was only trying to shed some light on why some posters and/or readers "snap" the way they do. Unfortunately, being the written word and unless you are extremely eloquent at conveying a message in print - it is very hard to hear ones 'tone' when typing an opinion or statement, etc. For example (if I may) I learned a long time ago (when I first joined these message boards) that there are a few long-timers (Monker & TNC to be specific) here that will quickly tackle anything you print if you are not SPECIFIC and EXACT as to your meaning when posting. Generalizations can lead anyone to assume something totally different than what was meant by the author. Unfortunately, I believe the old adage "mean what you say, say what you mean' come into play.

Peace to all~

You did nothing to apologize for or explain. I didn't take offense at anything you said. I guess my response came off reading a little more firey than I meant it to. I understand perfectly what you're saying about the written word. Sometimes I get a little bit blunt and it sounds testy. Then when I try to elaborate to avoid that I sound a little pompous. I mean what I say, but sometimes it sounds like more than I meant. I don't always say everything that I mean though.

I understand exactly where you're coming from here. I often get accused of sounding pompous when in reality I'm just trying to clarify what I mean to prevent any possible misinterpretation. Smileys help but they're no substitute for body language and face to face conversation.

Marty

[NealIsGod]

Also, if Deen is so sensitive and close to Augeri, why didn't call up Andrew to complain about how Augeri was being talked about ina LOT less 'respectful' way?

Maybe because he doesn't tell people how to do their jobs or run their site, like SOME people...

[ohsherrie]

That's not whta I get out of any of this AT ALL. I think the people who are all emotional about this feel they have been betrayed and lied to by Journey...

That's also the reason Tapegate happened.

and that Augeri was also betrayed.

I don't understand that at all, but I'll have to accept that they feel that way after reading that thread.

I don't think they wanted their hand held through this announcement...I think they simply expected the band to be honest about what was going on - from the begining...and they are angry that the band wasn't being honest AT ALL.

Again, that's all Tapegate was about too.

Two completely different perspectives that will never be able to reconcile. Neither side is wrong to feel what they feel because emotions are real and valid whether or not others understand or agree. For some reason a lot of Journey fans seem to be emotional and argumentative by their very nature. That's why there can never be an Official Journey fan forum where all fans can feel welcome.

[pdsidd]

Fucking disappointing and downright sad is what it is.

You know what....I don't even care what they are saying about me and this damn feature - they are NOT a reflection of reality, nor of any realm of sanity.
They are only pissy because their wiggler is gone.

I know for a fact that Steve has read the entire feature and he has no problem with it. If he doesn't, then why should this lot have a problem???
And poor Deen.....fuck me.

I had to go to an old friend's funeral Wednesday. They were killed in a car accident before Chrustmas. THAT is reality. Get a freeking life already before it is too late.

As for the proof reading - I picked 3 VERY passionate Journey fans I knew of and 3 professionals that I am friends with/work in the industry. ALL found typos, which was the whole point. They only read the bloody thing, they did not write or edit it to their own adgenda.

What a cook-a-hoop this whole thing has been from one particular section of the fanbase.

You don't have to justify your decisions, fact is you picked folks who kept the whole thing quiet while whatever legalese was being sorted out. That's a big ask considering the time it took to resolve.

Like you say they need to get a grip on what's important - this is just a rock'n'roll band not life.

Sorry to hear about your friends, what a terrible thing to happen at Christmas.

[NealIsGod]

Keep me in mind next time, Drew. I can proofread like a mofo and can keep a secret.