The New Survivor Vs. The Old Survivor Official Debate Forum

RIP Frankie's Playtoy

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Which Survivor is/was better?

Late 70's era
2
2%
Early 80's era
32
37%
Middle to late 80's
45
52%
Early to Mid 90's (including the FMS album)
2
2%
Late 90's to 2000
0
No votes
From 2000-2006 (including Jimi Jamison's Survivor "Empires")
1
1%
The Present Survivor era
4
5%
 
Total votes : 86

Postby Lark » Sat May 12, 2007 2:42 am

My thoughts are if Survivor were working on a new album, wouldn't it be in their best interests to get it out as quickly as possible to capitalize on the DWTS gig. Just my thoughts, since they "supposedly" have had almost a year to get it completed.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Sat May 12, 2007 2:45 am

Slander wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:I'll bet not a single new note has been laid down.


I have it on good authority that they are working on album. We'll see.



Pff.
MAYBE we'll "see." At the rate Frankie "Plato" Sullivan rolls, though, many of us will have cataracts when it's time to see that the record's done.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 2:45 am

Lark wrote:My thoughts are if Survivor were working on a new album, wouldn't it be in their best interests to get it out as quickly as possible to capitalize on the DWTS gig. Just my thoughts, since they "supposedly" have had almost a year to get it completed.


You mean throw something together? Get an album out to just get an album out. I don't think so. Who do you want Survivor to be-Journey? I think we can all agree there last platter was an error. By the way Foreigner hasn't had a new disc in a long time and Mick and the boys are doing just fine.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 2:49 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
Slander wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:I'll bet not a single new note has been laid down.


I have it on good authority that they are working on album. We'll see.



Pff.
MAYBE we'll "see." At the rate Frankie "Plato" Sullivan rolls, though, many of us will have cataracts when it's time to see that the record's done.


You guys don't deserve anything from this band. It's sad that we are not talking about something more constructive. Character assassination is not a good way to spend our time.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Sat May 12, 2007 2:52 am

Character assassination? I called him Plato, in trust of your assertion he's this deep thinker who can contemplate what it's like to be a fragment of an atom of the smallest particle of mass in the universe.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sat May 12, 2007 3:02 am

Slander wrote:
You mean throw something together? Get an album out to just get an album out. I don't think so. Who do you want Survivor to be-Journey? I think we can all agree there last platter was an error. By the way Foreigner hasn't had a new disc in a long time and Mick and the boys are doing just fine.


YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME, SLANDER. You are comparing Journey to Survivor? I mean, I'm a Survivor addict, and they've had some talented guys in the band, but...come on! Neal Schon is a thousand times more talented than Francis - he can do everything! Rock, hard rock, metal, blues, Latin, jazz, fusion, and melodic rock, to name a few of the styles he's mastered. Steve Perry was the greatest melodic rock vocalist in history. Steve Smith is universally regarded as THE BEST jazz drummer in the world by his contemporaries. Ross is no slouch on bass, and Jon Cain is fantastically talented.

And, since you're so misinformed - Journey has put out two records and one EP since Trial By Fire. I would hardly call that "getting a record out as quickly as possible". Generations was alright, but it BLOWS AWAY Reach...just look at Jamo's "Empires" and you'll see the man has a real touch for writing a great melodic rock song (Just Beyond the Clouds, November Rain). Francis didn't allow anyone else's input, as usual, which is why Reach was mediocre at best.

"Mick and the Boys"? Dude, only two original Foreigner members are with the band, and one of them is NOT Lou Gramm, who defined Foreigner's sound. Kelly Hansen? Mmmm. He's alright. He's certainly no Lou Gramm. And since Foreginer has been forced to play gigs like "The Bagel Fest", "Decatur Downtown", and various campgrounds since Lou left the band, I would hardly say they're doing "just fine".

You just can't get anything right.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Sat May 12, 2007 3:29 am

I WILL agree w/ S that Survivor and Jrny are comparable.
The only thing seperating the 2 for me is activity level since the '80s.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 3:44 am

7 Wishes wrote:
Slander wrote:
You mean throw something together? Get an album out to just get an album out. I don't think so. Who do you want Survivor to be-Journey? I think we can all agree there last platter was an error. By the way Foreigner hasn't had a new disc in a long time and Mick and the boys are doing just fine.


YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME, SLANDER. You are comparing Journey to Survivor? I mean, I'm a Survivor addict, and they've had some talented guys in the band, but...come on! Neal Schon is a thousand times more talented than Francis - he can do everything! Rock, hard rock, metal, blues, Latin, jazz, fusion, and melodic rock, to name a few of the styles he's mastered. Steve Perry was the greatest melodic rock vocalist in history. Steve Smith is universally regarded as THE BEST jazz drummer in the world by his contemporaries. Ross is no slouch on bass, and Jon Cain is fantastically talented.

And, since you're so misinformed - Journey has put out two records and one EP since Trial By Fire. I would hardly call that "getting a record out as quickly as possible". Generations was alright, but it BLOWS AWAY Reach...just look at Jamo's "Empires" and you'll see the man has a real touch for writing a great melodic rock song (Just Beyond the Clouds, November Rain). Francis didn't allow anyone else's input, as usual, which is why Reach was mediocre at best.

"Mick and the Boys"? Dude, only two original Foreigner members are with the band, and one of them is NOT Lou Gramm, who defined Foreigner's sound. Kelly Hansen? Mmmm. He's alright. He's certainly no Lou Gramm. And since Foreginer has been forced to play gigs like "The Bagel Fest", "Decatur Downtown", and various campgrounds since Lou left the band, I would hardly say they're doing "just fine".

You just can't get anything right.


You can't get anything right my friend. I'm not saying Survivor is as good as Journey. I'm talking about rushing out an album. I felt Generations was a bit rushed out and was shite! Sorry. Journey is superior to Survivor. I may be the only person in the world that owns a copy of Arrival. I'm talking about rushnig out albums! As far as Foreigner, Mick and his band are doing just fine thank you very much. Sorry they are not doing the Bagel Fest. Mick and the guys will be touring with Def Leppard and Styx this summer. Sorry you are wrong.
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Postby Lark » Sat May 12, 2007 3:51 am

wonder why Survivor didn't get invited along on that tour?
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 4:03 am

Lark wrote:wonder why Survivor didn't get invited along on that tour?


Uh. That's easy. Survivor doesn't have the same following as those other bands. Survivor never headlined the arena's that those three did.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sat May 12, 2007 4:03 am

Slander wrote:
You can't get anything right my friend. I'm not saying Survivor is as good as Journey. I'm talking about rushing out an album. I felt Generations was a bit rushed out and was shite! Sorry. Journey is superior to Survivor. I may be the only person in the world that owns a copy of Arrival. I'm talking about rushnig out albums! As far as Foreigner, Mick and his band are doing just fine thank you very much. Sorry they are not doing the Bagel Fest. Mick and the guys will be touring with Def Leppard and Styx this summer. Sorry you are wrong.


Foreigner will open and half a half an hour to play seven or eight songs from their dirty dozen, and that will be that. Their share of the revenue will be relatively small. People will see that it's not Gramm up there and are likely to not pay attention, and will certainly be more likely to avoid seeing them in the future. Incidentally, Arrival sold over a million copies worldwide, which is not too shabby - you can't just go by U.S. sales figures alone. Foreigner HAS been playing in front of VERY SMALL crowds for the last seven years.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 4:24 am

7 Wishes wrote:
Slander wrote:
You can't get anything right my friend. I'm not saying Survivor is as good as Journey. I'm talking about rushing out an album. I felt Generations was a bit rushed out and was shite! Sorry. Journey is superior to Survivor. I may be the only person in the world that owns a copy of Arrival. I'm talking about rushnig out albums! As far as Foreigner, Mick and his band are doing just fine thank you very much. Sorry they are not doing the Bagel Fest. Mick and the guys will be touring with Def Leppard and Styx this summer. Sorry you are wrong.


Foreigner will open and half a half an hour to play seven or eight songs from their dirty dozen, and that will be that. Their share of the revenue will be relatively small. People will see that it's not Gramm up there and are likely to not pay attention, and will certainly be more likely to avoid seeing them in the future. Incidentally, Arrival sold over a million copies worldwide, which is not too shabby - you can't just go by U.S. sales figures alone. Foreigner HAS been playing in front of VERY SMALL crowds for the last seven years.


Damn just admit you are wrong! It's not the bagelfest. Other bands would kill to be on that bill. Lou Gramm hasn't been part of Foreigner for a very long time. I love Lou but he is not indesposable. Johnny Edwards was terrific on Unusual Heat.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 4:42 am

Slander wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:
Slander wrote:
You can't get anything right my friend. I'm not saying Survivor is as good as Journey. I'm talking about rushing out an album. I felt Generations was a bit rushed out and was shite! Sorry. Journey is superior to Survivor. I may be the only person in the world that owns a copy of Arrival. I'm talking about rushnig out albums! As far as Foreigner, Mick and his band are doing just fine thank you very much. Sorry they are not doing the Bagel Fest. Mick and the guys will be touring with Def Leppard and Styx this summer. Sorry you are wrong.


Foreigner will open and half a half an hour to play seven or eight songs from their dirty dozen, and that will be that. Their share of the revenue will be relatively small. People will see that it's not Gramm up there and are likely to not pay attention, and will certainly be more likely to avoid seeing them in the future. Incidentally, Arrival sold over a million copies worldwide, which is not too shabby - you can't just go by U.S. sales figures alone. Foreigner HAS been playing in front of VERY SMALL crowds for the last seven years.


Damn just admit you are wrong! It's not the bagelfest. Other bands would kill to be on that bill. Lou Gramm hasn't been part of Foreigner for a very long time. I love Lou but he is not indesposable. Johnny Edwards was terrific on Unusual Heat.


Generations did not sell. I understand that Reach sold about 30k. Not bad for Frontiers.
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Postby silvergirl66 » Sat May 12, 2007 4:45 am

not dogging Foreigner, they have been one of my alltime favorite bands but 4 maybe 5 years ago I stood in line for like 5 or 6 hours in the hot sun at the taste of Chicago when Survivor and Foreigner was there so I could get really close to the stage. Lou was singing and when he first came on stage I had to do a double take first off, he was way overweight, then he started singing........I looked at my friend and she looked at me and we both just shook our heads. What the hell happened to Lou!!? The band was tight and awesome but Lou was shot. I'm sorry, I couldn't watch or listen. HIs voice was shot and it was ruining those precious songs I loved so much. I was trying give him the benefit of the doubt cause I knew he went threw some cancer or something like that but folks, it was bad. I don't blame the band for getting a different singer. I didn't stay for the whole show, I had to leave, it was that bad........sorry.
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 4:52 am

silvergirl66 wrote:not dogging Foreigner, they have been one of my alltime favorite bands but 4 maybe 5 years ago I stood in line for like 5 or 6 hours in the hot sun at the taste of Chicago when Survivor and Foreigner was there so I could get really close to the stage. Lou was singing and when he first came on stage I had to do a double take first off, he was way overweight, then he started singing........I looked at my friend and she looked at me and we both just shook our heads. What the hell happened to Lou!!? The band was tight and awesome but Lou was shot. I'm sorry, I couldn't watch or listen. HIs voice was shot and it was ruining those precious songs I loved so much. I was trying give him the benefit of the doubt cause I knew he went threw some cancer or something like that but folks, it was bad. I don't blame the band for getting a different singer. I didn't stay for the whole show, I had to leave, it was that bad........sorry.


I love Lou too. One of my fav albums is INSIDE INFORMATION. SAY YOU WILL is a classic. I think the band sounds great now even though Mick is the last man standing. You can still tell it's Froeigner. Silver did you like the album 'UNSUAL HEAT'?
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Postby silvergirl66 » Sat May 12, 2007 5:14 am

yeah it's ok, I'm pretty old school though, I like the old Foreigner.
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Postby Eyeof » Sat May 12, 2007 6:13 am

You know...I actually prefer Survivor to Journey...the harder edge that they had early on at least...I know Journey had more success, but I think so much of that had to do with Scottie Brothers and the self destructive nature of the band.

I've said it time and time again, FS messed up really bad in refusing to have Rocky III scenes in the Eye of the Tiger video. The video would have been so much more popular and it would have hit them on the MTV deal...where as that video got little to know play...only FS would think it was a bad idea to include scenes from that movie...anyways...

Dave leaving hurt...Failure to capitalize on the success of the Tiger single with the album, which is a great album. Failure to properly push CITG.

Hell guys, the Moment of Truth should have been huge...i mean that movie was big...and the song was good for the time...

The did a rebound with Vital Signs, but still were not the headliners they could have been and by the soft core WSC they were just about done...I can remember getting that album and hearing the singles and thinking "what the hell"...i mean here this band is with this rocking catalog and i'm hearing this 'When Seconds Count' junk...

Yes THTS was a good album, but so poorly promoted, I didn't even know when it came out...Found out about it about three months later....

Amazing how different things were before the internet...an album could come out and you would not even know it....

Thank God for Solid Gold or I would not have ever known what the band looked like in the early days...
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Postby Slander » Sat May 12, 2007 11:39 am

Eyeof wrote:Y
Hell guys, the Moment of Truth should have been huge...i mean that movie was big...and the song was good for the time...


The moment of truth sucked. It was written by Bill Conti. I can tell you Frankie and the guys didn't like doing it.
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Postby Eyeof » Sat May 12, 2007 12:23 pm

I liked it fine, especially considering its era....I know Frankie doesn't like it, but of course he doesn't....he didn't write it...and nothing he didn't do could be good right? I'm sure he'd rather spend quality concert time on 75 minute guitar solo, because that's soooo good....

And by the way...Bill Conti is a legend, so what's wrong with that....If Frankie was so against it...he should not have done it...My point was it was a pretty good song, from a huge movie...was used in the trailer and they get nothing from it...the next movie, Peter Centera does some sappy love song and viola...instant hit...
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Postby Red13JoePa » Sat May 12, 2007 12:34 pm

Yep. Moment Of Truth is a good tune, w/out question. Hardly any Frankie, but I've said before I LOVE the part he does have in the song.

Very funny in a cheesy way that it's set w/ Peterik playing the Conti theme as the main motif of the song, but it DOES stand out as such.
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Postby jsmac32raider » Sun May 13, 2007 4:12 pm

"Nice try by you but you could say that about any piece of music. The bottom line is Frankie and the band are keeping the song alive. Therefore they are a part of the song. I didn't hear the voice of Survivor Jimi playing on DWTS nor did I hear Liza Manelli and Jim Peterik singing it on DWTS. It was Survivor. Sorry but the band are one. Get over it. You can't have one without the other."


Dude, Slander. . . . . .what are you talking about??? Uh. . . . .AC/DC doesn't need to keep "You shook me all night long" alive. Led Zepplin doesn't need to keep "Stairway to Heaven" alive. Kool & the Gang doesn't need to keep "Celebration" alive.

Get it???

Frankie and the bunch aren't doing ANYTHING to keep "Eye of the Tiger" alive. That song was released 25 years ago and is still one of "I-tunes" most down-loaded songs, regardless of whether or not "Survivor" is playing at fairs and garlic festivals. People know that song. People have always known that song. And people will ALWAYS know the damned song, long after we're all dead.

Like someone else already said - Survivor wasn't asked to be on that show because of Survivor. They were asked to be on the show for the SONG. You, me and my 3 cousins could have showed up on stage and sang that song and nobody would have really gave a crap either way. They just wanted the backdrop.

Frankie Sullivan is a fantastic, talented musician. But he is also a complete bafoon. He toyed with the talents of 2 amazing singers (Bickler and Jamison) and, more importantly, screwed them both from a personal, human-being standpoint. I say this having met both Jim & Dave. They were both SO damned nice and personable. Sullivan is nothing but arrogant.

The man knows NOTHING about what is best for this band. If he did, Survivor would have had at least 15-20 CD's since 1978. I've sat back and read all this nonsense about how they're so happy and finally at peace.

Please. . . . .what a bunch of crap. Of course they're happy. They're playing music - that's what they love to do. But, let's be a little more critical of what "happy" means in the context of a rock band within the music industry. If Frankie and his band are "happy", and yet, their current music and way about doing things is completely moronic, who cares?

If an architect designs your house and he's all proud of himself, but you hate your house. . . . . . . . .what do you call that? Do you really care if he's happy with himself?

It's the music business man! It's about more than Frankie and the guys being happy. They need to make an effort to make their FANS happy. That's what people in the entertainment industry are supposed to do. You're supposed to put out CD's. You're supposed to try your damnest to keep the lead singers & musicians that your fans identify with.

Sorry man. . . . . .Frankie Sullivan is totally, completely clueless when it comes to the "people skills" department.

I've only had the priveledge of seeing Survivor live 5 times (4 with Dave, 1 with Jimi) and at all those shows with Dave at the helm, Frankie is the one who did all the talking during the shows, including the introduction of songs. What the hell is up with THAT??? Talk about totally putting down your lead singer in front of your audiences. And don't tell me Dave was just too shy to do the talking. Give me a freakin' break. Who does Frankie think he is? And why the hell does he waste good CD space and concert space singing??? I don't want to hear his freakin voice. Leave the singing for the real SINGER. Stick to your guitar.

The man needs to take a huge dose of something called "humble".

I've been busy with my family life the past few years, but, I swear that I love this band as much as any fan on this earth. But, having stumbled onto this web site has got me goin' again! It's cool to see people talkin' Survivor, but, it's also a bit disappointing seeing the lack of critical thought at times.

And PS - hey SEVEN. . . or is it 7? Whatever - hey man - you put it rather crudely much of the time, but frankly, you and I seem to think alike.

Chow.

Or is it Ciau?

Later. . . . ..
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RE: which rocks more?

Postby lukather4prez » Sun May 13, 2007 8:12 pm

are you fucking kidding me with this :


ok guys, i got a debate topic for you all...... Which Rocks more, Vital Signs or Premonition?


Like what you will but the heavy nature of the Premonition album to the light, fluff, soda bubble gum pop of much of VS is really uncomparable. They are really like 2 different bands. Both are good albums for the types of music they are.

The most Rocking thing they ever made if by that you mean "heavy, and thick guitars, with that street edge to it and alot of soul in the voice n driving beats, riffs n KILLER guitar work" then you mean Premonition. some will luv it some not as its not that " High on You" high tenor West coast sound that perry and Jamo had.


c.m.
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Postby MarcelJordan » Mon May 14, 2007 1:55 pm

Eyeof wrote:I liked it fine, especially considering its era....I know Frankie doesn't like it, but of course he doesn't....he didn't write it...and nothing he didn't do could be good right? I'm sure he'd rather spend quality concert time on 75 minute guitar solo, because that's soooo good....

And by the way...Bill Conti is a legend, so what's wrong with that....If Frankie was so against it...he should not have done it...My point was it was a pretty good song, from a huge movie...was used in the trailer and they get nothing from it...the next movie, Peter Centera does some sappy love song and viola...instant hit...


Did you know that Frankie was not really crazy about doing the solos? In his words (not exactly verbatim) "they (the band) made me do it all alone. It was horrible"

On the Conti front, Frankie hardly did much in the song, except the 5 second solo at the end and the cool chugging (the BEST part of the tune, IMO) at the middle (that I think saved the tune). At the same time, JP was the head honcho. FS possibly just went along with it.
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Re: RE: which rocks more?

Postby MarcelJordan » Mon May 14, 2007 1:57 pm

lukather4prez wrote: are you fucking kidding me with this :


ok guys, i got a debate topic for you all...... Which Rocks more, Vital Signs or Premonition?


Like what you will but the heavy nature of the Premonition album to the light, fluff, soda bubble gum pop of much of VS is really uncomparable. They are really like 2 different bands. Both are good albums for the types of music they are.

The most Rocking thing they ever made if by that you mean "heavy, and thick guitars, with that street edge to it and alot of soul in the voice n driving beats, riffs n KILLER guitar work" then you mean Premonition. some will luv it some not as its not that " High on You" high tenor West coast sound that perry and Jamo had.


c.m.


With all due respect C.M. I thought "Singer" was the closest they got to true rockin' in VS. Third fav. Survivor tune for me.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Mon May 14, 2007 2:42 pm

MarcelJordan wrote:
Did you know that Frankie was not really crazy about doing the solos? In his words (not exactly verbatim) "they (the band) made me do it all alone. It was horrible"
On the Conti front, Frankie hardly did much in the song, except the 5 second solo at the end and the cool chugging (the BEST part of the tune, IMO) at the middle (that I think saved the tune). At the same time, JP was the head honcho. FS possibly just went along with it.


I love Francis' work and songwriting about as much as I hate his attitude. What a blowhard.
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Postby jsmac32raider » Mon May 14, 2007 3:10 pm

With all due respect C.M. I thought "Singer" was the closest they got to true rockin' in VS. Third fav. Survivor tune for me.


Hmmm. . . . . . . .that's a stretch if I've ever heard one my friend.

I believe I can think of about 40 songs Survivor has done that "Rock" more than "Singer". That song isn't even heavy. As Lukather said, Vital Signs had a completely different, poppy sound (Singer included) than it's preceding Survivor albums. In fact, the only song on that CD that feels like "old" Survivor is "Broken Promises".

That's my opinion anyway. . . .
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Postby MarcelJordan » Mon May 14, 2007 5:16 pm

7 Wishes wrote:
MarcelJordan wrote:
Did you know that Frankie was not really crazy about doing the solos? In his words (not exactly verbatim) "they (the band) made me do it all alone. It was horrible"
On the Conti front, Frankie hardly did much in the song, except the 5 second solo at the end and the cool chugging (the BEST part of the tune, IMO) at the middle (that I think saved the tune). At the same time, JP was the head honcho. FS possibly just went along with it.


I love Francis' work and songwriting about as much as I hate his attitude. What a blowhard.


If I ever catch you watching Survivor live.... :lol: Kidding!
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Postby MarcelJordan » Mon May 14, 2007 5:19 pm

jsmac32raider wrote:With all due respect C.M. I thought "Singer" was the closest they got to true rockin' in VS. Third fav. Survivor tune for me.


Hmmm. . . . . . . .that's a stretch if I've ever heard one my friend.

I believe I can think of about 40 songs Survivor has done that "Rock" more than "Singer". That song isn't even heavy. As Lukather said, Vital Signs had a completely different, poppy sound (Singer included) than it's preceding Survivor albums. In fact, the only song on that CD that feels like "old" Survivor is "Broken Promises".

That's my opinion anyway. . . .


So which ones rock harder in VS? I thought in "Singer" Jamo was full swing vocally, Frankie on fire on guitar, Marc D. slamming the skins like no other.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue May 15, 2007 12:11 am

jsmac32raider wrote: garlic festivals.



Craked up out loud for about 5 minutes on that one. 8)
"I love almost everybody."---Rocky Balboa 1990
"Let's reform this thing.Let's go out and get some guys who want to work and go do it"--Neal Schon February, 2001
"I looked at Neal, and I just saw a guy who really wants his band back"-JCain 2/01
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Postby Slander » Tue May 15, 2007 1:34 am

MarcelJordan wrote:
Eyeof wrote:I liked it fine, especially considering its era....I know Frankie doesn't like it, but of course he doesn't....he didn't write it...and nothing he didn't do could be good right? I'm sure he'd rather spend quality concert time on 75 minute guitar solo, because that's soooo good....

And by the way...Bill Conti is a legend, so what's wrong with that....If Frankie was so against it...he should not have done it...My point was it was a pretty good song, from a huge movie...was used in the trailer and they get nothing from it...the next movie, Peter Centera does some sappy love song and viola...instant hit...


Did you know that Frankie was not really crazy about doing the solos? In his words (not exactly verbatim) "they (the band) made me do it all alone. It was horrible"

On the Conti front, Frankie hardly did much in the song, except the 5 second solo at the end and the cool chugging (the BEST part of the tune, IMO) at the middle (that I think saved the tune). At the same time, JP was the head honcho. FS possibly just went along with it.


Hey Marcel why bother talking to these guys. They care nothing about actual facts. Frankie hated moment of truth. No one denies Conti's genius. Having said that I don't see Frankie trying to score a movie. Perhaps Conti should not be putting together rock songs.
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