The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[RossValoryRocks]

programs offering college help for serving your community are a good idea. we have quite a few teach for america people working in our school (public, inner city los angeles). absolutely nothing wrong with promoting social justice. i went to LMU, both grad and undergrad and social justice is part of the university's mission. gotta love the catholics (i'm one, sort of)

Doesn't it depend on HOW you promote social justice?

If you promote it as a class warfare bit then isn't that wrong?

[Archetype]

Barack Obama will destroy this country.

[Lula]

yes, it does depend on how social justice is promoted. as for class warfare...... i try to instill hard work ethics to my 8th graders as i will with my son. my father never had a lot, but he did work hard and passed that to us. handouts for the sake of a handout is not something i support, but i do support a helping hand to someone who is really trying to improve and get out of the hood, so to speak.

[Lula]

Barack Obama will destroy this country.

oh dear, here we go. obama will not destroy this country, neither will mccain. bush hasn't and that says a lot!

[Enigma869]

obama will not destroy this country, neither will mccain. bush hasn't and that says a lot!

Not because he hasn't tried! He's come as close as any president in my lifetime. I can't wait until that incompetent fuck gets back to Texas, where he belongs! I can only hope that brother Jeb doesn't have aspirations to be president, because this country can't handle another incompetent Bush family member. Two is already two, too many!


John from Boston

[RossValoryRocks]

obama will not destroy this country, neither will mccain. bush hasn't and that says a lot!

Not because he hasn't tried! He's come as close as any president in my lifetime. I can't wait until that incompetent fuck gets back to Texas, where he belongs! I can only hope that brother Jeb doesn't have aspirations to be president, because this country can't handle another incompetent Bush family member. Two is already two, too many!


John from Boston

I think Jeb is much more grounded that George is...

[Andrew]

Just a word of warning to folks - I'm not going to invest too much of my time reading this thread....

If anything or one gets out of hand, please PM me. Too many other things to do.

[Enigma869]

I think Jeb is much more grounded that George is...

I personally don't give a rat's ass how "grounded" Jeb might be. The sight of another incompetent Bush (I think it's in the DNA) would make me lose confidence in this country forever. I was beyond stunned that W. got elected for a second term. The guy has been a bumbling moron since day one. I'm astonished that anyone as incompetent and seemingly intellectually challenged as he appears was re-elected by the people of this country.


John from Boston

[Rick]

obama will not destroy this country, neither will mccain. bush hasn't and that says a lot!

Not because he hasn't tried! He's come as close as any president in my lifetime. I can't wait until that incompetent fuck gets back to Texas, where he belongs! I can only hope that brother Jeb doesn't have aspirations to be president, because this country can't handle another incompetent Bush family member. Two is already two, too many!


John from Boston

Agreed, but do not let that bumbling jackass reflect on the people of Texas.

I said bumbling jackass, but he's really not that. He was smart enough to use the office of president to make more money for him and his friends than could have been humanly possible, otherwise.

He hoodwinked the American public into thinking that we are enemies with Iraq, a long standing ally. A country we have done business with for decades. He was successful enough to make the American people think they had malicious intents for not only us, but the rest of the world. Is this sounding a bit ludicrous? It should. He's a fucking liar.

Read this website and get back to me. http://www.serendipity.li/wtc2.htm

[Uno_up]

Just a word of warning to folks - I'm not going to invest too much of my time reading this thread....

If anything or one gets out of hand, please PM me. Too many other things to do.

u see Palin's calves in that interview with charley gibson? even you must have felt a deep stirring...

[RedWingFan]

On another note, I challenge the denizens of this thread to cut the name-calling. I'm willing to do so. 7 Wishes and whoever else is accusing the other side of being worse than the other, it's ridiculous. You are just as bad as the other name-callers and vice versa. I apologize for my part in it.

I notice you didn't have the courage to call anyone ELSE by name, even though they've been after me since I made it clear I'm a Democrat. Seriously, Dave, I appreciate the sincerity behind your post, but if you're just going to call ME out and let everyone else go unnamed, it's really pointless.

Look, I've called other conservatives out by name on this board before, including RedWingFan....Anyway how about Stu, TNC, etc...You were the last one whose post I read, so I used your name.

I never call anyone any names, except for when I call Moonbeam and Deb "Canadians"

[mikemarrs]

Just a word of warning to folks - I'm not going to invest too much of my time reading this thread....

If anything or one gets out of hand, please PM me. Too many other things to do.

u see Palin's calves in that interview with charley gibson? even you must have felt a deep stirring...

,i'll trade her my votes for 'em

[Enigma869]

Agreed, but do not let that bumbling jackass reflect on the people of Texas.

I said bumbling jackass, but he's really not that. He was smart enough to use the office of president to make more money for him and his friends than could have been humanly possible, otherwise.

He hoodwinked the American public into thinking that we are enemies with Iraq, a long standing ally. A country we have done business with for decades. He was successful enough to make the American people think they had malicious intents for not only us, but the rest of the world. Is this sounding a bit ludicrous? It should. He's a fucking liar.

Read this website and get back to me. http://www.serendipity.li/wtc2.htm

I've met many fine Texans, Rick, so I definitely wouldn't lump you all together. I agree with much of what you said about Bush. It's refreshing to hear someone from his home state rake the guy over the coals. Nothing makes my skin crawl more than any human being who would defend this guy. I guess with a "popularity rating" hovering around an embarrassing 25%, that there are still blind yahoos, who have their heads buried in the sand, and actually believe that this guy has been a good president. I think the country should implement "term limits" to limit one family to only two terms in office. I honestly couldn't stand another Bush in The White House. They've both presided over the highest gas prices our country has ever seen, and neither have been effective leaders! At least we know if Jeb ever runs, and gets in, that we have to start mortgaging our houses to pay for the gas prices that will be guaranteed to rise!


John from Boston

[separate_wayz]

Barack Obama will destroy this country.

I absolutely disagree with this ..... First, he's in the process of destroying any chance that Democrats have of winning back the White House by running the worst post-Labor Day campaign in memory. After he gets done with that, he's going to destroy any chance that Democrats have of increasing their seats in Congress, by having Republicans actually increase their numbers in the House.

Once he gets done with the first two, he won't be in the position to do what you assert.

[donnaplease]

He hoodwinked the American public into thinking that we are enemies with Iraq, a long standing ally. A country we have done business with for decades. He was successful enough to make the American people think they had malicious intents for not only us, but the rest of the world. Is this sounding a bit ludicrous? It should. He's a fucking liar.

I cannot believe I just read this from you, Rick. You are usually a kind-hearted person, so I'm surprised that you would be sympathetic to Saddam Hussein. You DO remember that he brutally tortured and murdered his OWN people, right? If he was callous enough to do that to his own countrymen, what in the world makes you think he would have no ill-will toward others throughout the world? As far as being a 'long-standing' ally, there was a time when the US and Iraq were friends. Then this little thing called Desert Storm happened, and although he hasn't told me personally, I'd be willing to bet that ol' Saddam held a grudge against us for that. I mean, what the hell were we thinking, sending him & his boys packing after they invaded their neighbor...? I'm not linking Iraq to 9-11 here, but I do believe that if Saddam Hussein could've helped in any way to 'put us in our place' he would've done so. Granted, he would've done so in an underhanded and sneaky way, because he was a coward, but make no mistake, he would've loved to nail us. Perhaps he felt empowered by Al Quaeda and what they accomplished. The world may never know.

Perhaps George W. Bush has made mistakes, MANY mistakes. IDK, only history will tell how his presidency is perceived. However, there are some facts that ring true: The US hasn't been attacked since they took matters into their own hands in Afghanistan and Iraq; and 2 entire countries can now exercise freedoms that before the wars only a select FEW could experience, including but not limited to civil liberties. Finally, what really chaps my ass about all this talk is that people bitch cause the man didn't do enough, and then bitch when he did something proactively. There is NO winning with some people.

I say to anyone until you sit your ass in the oval office and have to make these decisions, take it easy and just STFU. (not you specifically Rick, just people in general. )

[Monker]

Did you actually READ the loathesome stuff said about her and her family written by the liberal bloggers the DAY of and the DAY after she was introduced at the VP choice?
How about what that nasty chairperson of the SC Democrat party said about her only qualification being she hadn't had an abortion?

Man...you think the right is nasty? You and the hard left fucks are simply repulsive.

Right, Stuart. Truthful statements about her hypocrisy and poor decision-making as governor are MUCH worse than people on this board who merely call him a socialist, a communist, an America-hating Muslim, or a monkey.

Ass fucking hole.

Hiya pot nice to meet you I am kettle!

I hope Obama gets elected, and when you see what the Obama-Biden and Democrat controlled congress do to you and this country i will come back and laugh. If I can still afford internet service given what the economy is going to be like when they get done with it.

It doesn't matter who gets elected, we are still going to have to get through the horrific conditions Bush has set up. Bush may have fucked up this economy for a decade or more.

This is YOUR Bush. This is the Bush you and others DEFENDED as every decision he made was horrendous...destroying the economy, end-running the Constitution, amending our liberties, HE fucked the US, not the Democrats.

[Monker]

I think she made herself look foolish by not wanting to admit she didn't know what he was talking about...and ended up attempting to answer the question three times.

I heard this talked about earlier this evening. They showed that Gibson himself had associated the Bush doctrine with something different at least twice. In other words Gibson doesn't even agree with himself all the time. Regardless, the Bush doctrine has shifted several times since 2002, so it's not surprising that she would ask for clarification.

Also, from Charles Krauthammer, who coined the phrase "Bush Doctrine" as mentioned earlier on this page...[/quote]

Blah, blah, blah...

The question was how Plain came across, or whatever.

You can make all the excuses you want. She came across like she had no idea what she was talking about.

"At times visibly nervous . . . Ms. Palin most visibly stumbled when she was asked by Mr. Gibson if she agreed with the Bush doctrine. Ms. Palin did not seem to know what he was talking about. Mr. Gibson, sounding like an impatient teacher, informed her that it meant the right of 'anticipatory self-defense.' "

-- New York Times, Sept. 12

Informed her? Rubbish.

The New York Times got it wrong. And Charlie Gibson got it wrong.

Maybe it depends on what clip you saw....but what I saw COMPLETELY agrees with the above.

There is no single meaning of the Bush doctrine. In fact, there have been four distinct meanings, each one succeeding another over the eight years of this administration -- and the one Charlie Gibson cited is not the one in common usage today. It is utterly different.

He asked Palin, "Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?"

She responded, quite sensibly to a question that is ambiguous, "In what respect, Charlie?"

Yeah, and in the interview it was CLEAR that the questiuon REALLY was, "What the hell are you talking about?"

She DID stumble and look nervous when asked. It was CLEAR she had no clue what he was talking...in any definition.

Sensing his "gotcha" moment, Gibson refused to tell her. After making her fish for the answer, Gibson grudgingly explained to the moose-hunting rube that the Bush doctrine "is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense."

Wrong.

No it's not...it is EXACTLY what happened.

I know something about the subject because, as the Wikipedia entry on the Bush doctrine notes, I was the first to use the term. In the cover essay of the June 4, 2001, issue of the Weekly Standard entitled, "The Bush Doctrine: ABM, Kyoto, and the New American Unilateralism," I suggested that the Bush administration policies of unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty and rejecting the Kyoto protocol, together with others, amounted to a radical change in foreign policy that should be called the Bush doctrine...

The article goes on to explain the various incarnations of the Bush Doctrine, some of which are radically different from the others.

I really don't care what you wrote. The bottom line is that Palin came across as if she had NO IDEA what she was being asked. If she knew what you say above, I have no doubt that she would have corrected Gibson, "That is true. But, it has also been described as this....blah, blah, blah. It would have helped if you had given this clarification when I originaly asked.". Instead, her face and actions showed that she KNEW she had fumbled and was caught being ignorant and trying to talk her way out of it.

The truth is that if she had come clean in the beginning and asked up front what is meant by the 'Bush Doctrine', she would have came off a LOT better. In the end, it made her look like she was hiding her ignorance...and it makes ME suspect she is doing it about a lot of other things too.

[Barb]

He hoodwinked the American public into thinking that we are enemies with Iraq, a long standing ally. A country we have done business with for decades. He was successful enough to make the American people think they had malicious intents for not only us, but the rest of the world. Is this sounding a bit ludicrous? It should. He's a fucking liar.

I cannot believe I just read this from you, Rick. You are usually a kind-hearted person, so I'm surprised that you would be sympathetic to Saddam Hussein. You DO remember that he brutally tortured and murdered his OWN people, right? If he was callous enough to do that to his own countrymen, what in the world makes you think he would have no ill-will toward others throughout the world? As far as being a 'long-standing' ally, there was a time when the US and Iraq were friends. Then this little thing called Desert Storm happened, and although he hasn't told me personally, I'd be willing to bet that ol' Saddam held a grudge against us for that. I mean, what the hell were we thinking, sending him & his boys packing after they invaded their neighbor...? I'm not linking Iraq to 9-11 here, but I do believe that if Saddam Hussein could've helped in any way to 'put us in our place' he would've done so. Granted, he would've done so in an underhanded and sneaky way, because he was a coward, but make no mistake, he would've loved to nail us. Perhaps he felt empowered by Al Quaeda and what they accomplished. The world may never know.

Perhaps George W. Bush has made mistakes, MANY mistakes. IDK, only history will tell how his presidency is perceived. However, there are some facts that ring true: The US hasn't been attacked since they took matters into their own hands in Afghanistan and Iraq; and 2 entire countries can now exercise freedoms that before the wars only a select FEW could experience, including but not limited to civil liberties. Finally, what really chaps my ass about all this talk is that people bitch cause the man didn't do enough, and then bitch when he did something proactively. There is NO winning with some people.

I say to anyone until you sit your ass in the oval office and have to make these decisions, take it easy and just STFU. (not you specifically Rick, just people in general. )

Not to mention the assassination attempt on a U.S.president or that regime change in Iraq was the U.S.'s position long before George W. Bush was sworn in.

[S2M]

13 pages?  ZZZZZZZZZZZZ     

[Lula]

mccain on palin's foreign policy experience = you can see russia from alaska

mccain jokes about an earmark to study bear dna while simultaneously palin is requesting an earmark to study seal dna

the humor never ends. seems my candidate never wins the election, as least the last two, i'll suffer great depression if i have to suffer through 4 years of these yahoos. hillary 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj6TvUQ_0to&NR=1 a little humor for this sunday morn.

[Barb]

Palin 'governed from the center,' went after big oil

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... over_N.htm

ANCHORAGE — Weeks after taking office as Alaska's governor in December 2006, Sarah Palin vetoed a bill that sought to ban benefits for the same-sex partners of state workers. It was unconstitutional, she said.
This year, she rebuffed religious conservatives who wanted her to add two abortion restriction measures to a special legislative session on oil and gas policy, even though she supported the bills. Former aide Larry Persily said she didn't want to risk offending Democrats, whose votes she needed on energy legislation.

Since Republican presidential candidate John McCain picked Palin as his running mate, much attention has been focused on her deeply conservative social views — including her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape and incest and her attendance at a church that promotes the "transformation" of homosexuals through prayer.

But in her 21 months as governor, Palin has taken few steps to advance culturally conservative causes. Instead, after she knocked off an incumbent amid an influence-peddling scandal linked to the oil industry, Palin pursued a populist agenda that toughened ethics rules and raised taxes on oil and gas companies.

And she did so while relying on Democratic votes in the Legislature.

"She has governed from the center," says Rebecca Braun, author of Alaska Budget Report, a non-partisan political newsletter. "She has in some small ways supported her religious views — for example, proposing money to continue the office of faith-based and community initiatives — but she has actually been conspicuously absent on social issues. She came in with a big oil and gas agenda, which really required Democratic allies to get through."

John Bitney, who was Palin's issues adviser during the 2006 campaign and later worked as her legislative liaison before she fired him, says, "She's a very devout Christian. That's a part of her core. But we never put those issues forward in the campaign. She takes the positions she takes because that's who she is, but when she came into office, that wasn't her agenda."

A focus on energy

Palin's agenda has been dominated by an energy policy that, in part, bears more resemblance to the one put forward by Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama and other Democrats than the one backed by McCain and the GOP.

Obama supports a so-called windfall tax on oil profits; McCain opposes it. McCain also opposed repealing billions of dollars in oil tax breaks as a way of paying for renewable energy subsidies.

"If that plan sounds familiar, it's because that was President Carter's big idea, too," McCain said of Obama's windfall tax proposal in June in San Antonio.

Six months earlier in Alaska, Palin had signed a bill that increased state taxes on oil profits. The measure imposed a graduated scale, so the state's share would go up even more when oil prices rise.

Palin dubbed her plan "Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share." Oil company profits are taxed at a 25% base rate, up from the previous 22.5%. The tax rate rises 0.2% for each dollar the price of oil exceeds $52 per barrel.

The state's coffers are brimming, and Palin and the Legislature this month are sending $1,200 checks to every Alaskan, on top of $2,069 each will receive as part of the annual slice of state oil and gas revenue. Palin also suspended the state's gasoline tax for a year. Oil and gas royalties make up 85% of state revenue in Alaska, which has no income or sales tax.

Oil executives said the law amounted to a $6 billion tax increase this year and criticized it on the same grounds that McCain and Republicans have opposed efforts by congressional Democrats to repeal federal tax breaks for oil producers. They said it would cost jobs and reduce investment in exploration.

"The tax increase that Gov. Palin has signed into law reduces the attractiveness of future oil developments in Alaska," Kimberly Brasington, a spokeswoman for ExxonMobil, said after the bill passed in December. "We are re-evaluating investment plans."

Tim Bradner, an energy industry specialist for the Alaska Economic Report, says two oil projects worth about $1 billion have been canceled because they became uneconomical under the Palin tax increase.

It was a remarkable development in a state where the oil industry has long wielded outsized influence in politics.

'Surprising turn of events'

Palin got tough with major oil producers in other ways, too. She moved to revoke ExxonMobil's license to develop oil and natural gas at Point Thomson on the North Slope, arguing the company had sat for too long on the site without developing the reserves. ExxonMobil says it will begin drilling this winter, but the state says the plans are inadequate.

In August, Palin signed a bill to give a half-billion-dollar state subsidy to a Canadian company to build a $30 billion natural gas pipeline after major oil producers boycotted the bidding.

"Here you are in Alaska, a state that grew rich on oil and gas, in a state where Republicans generally protected the industry," says Persily, who worked for Palin in Washington. "Now you have Palin who comes in, says, 'Tax 'em,' and the Legislature says, 'We'll see your tax, and we'll double it,' and everyone went home happy other than the oil industry. It's a very surprising turn of events."

Eric Croft, a former Democratic state representative from Anchorage, says, "On oil and gas, her positions are much closer to that of the national Democratic Party than of the national Republican Party."

Douglas Holtz-Eakin, McCain's policy director, sees a distinction.

"The key difference between what the governor did and what Sen. Obama is proposing is, the governor did not impose a windfall profits tax," Holtz-Eakin said during a lunch with reporters last week. "It's a permanent change. It's not an opportunistic grab for 'windfall profits,' and I think that's a fundamental difference in the approach. She was trying to set the state up for both good and bad times in the oil industry, and that's very sensible."

Palin has been unavailable to the news media for interviews other than ABC News. Her spokeswoman, Maria Comella, said in an e-mail: "Just like John McCain, Gov. Palin understood the need to eliminate corruption, raise ethical standards, and serve the people with a comprehensive approach to fixing the tax code and supporting an appropriate royalties system."

In August, before she was McCain's running mate, Palin issued a statement praising parts of Obama's energy plan, especially his proposal "to offer $1,000 rebates to those struggling with the high cost of energy." She questioned Obama's proposed windfall profits tax without explaining how it would differ from her new tax.

Even so, she differs sharply from Obama and McCain on the politically sensitive issue of opening areas of Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to oil drilling. She supports it; the presidential candidates do not.

In an interview with CNBC's Larry Kudlow this summer, Palin said McCain is "wrong on ANWR, but we're still working on that."

'Who are these people?'

Palin's oil populism isn't just one aspect of her record: It's central to her identity as a politician. And it was instrumental in her rise to power.

After serving as mayor of small town Wasilla from 1996 to 2002, she ran for lieutenant governor that fall. She came in second, but her out-of-nowhere performance made an impression across Alaska, says Republican state Sen. Lyda Green.

Gov. Frank Murkowski, a Republican, appointed her to a $118,000-a-year job on an important oil and gas commission. Several months later, she filed an ethics complaint against a fellow commissioner — the state chairman of the Republican Party — alleging he was doing political business on state time. He resigned and later paid a $12,000 fine.

Palin complained that Murkowski hadn't taken the complaint seriously. She quit and began planning to challenge him in the 2006 primary. Among Palin's lines of attacks: He was too close to the oil industry.

The unpopular Murkowski also was being challenged in the GOP primary by state Sen. John Binkley of Fairbanks. Because few initially thought Palin had a chance, Alaska lobbyist Ashley Reed recalls, party activists asked Reed to approach her to see whether she would step aside and run as Binkley's lieutenant governor.

Palin refused. She handily beat Murkowski and Binkley with 51% of the vote; Murkowski finished third with 19%.

That evening, at the traditional election night gathering place in downtown Anchorage where candidates go to do television interviews, Reed recalls marveling at the crowd of enthusiastic supporters who surrounded Palin. In a small state where most politicos know one another, he says, "I watched in amazement, because what I saw was people I never saw before. I just stood there and was like, 'Who are these people?' "

Running against big oil

Nine days after the primary, the FBI raided the offices of six Alaska legislators, and documents made clear the investigation was oil-related.

The burgeoning scandal, which included revelations of favors done for politicians by oil services company VECO, set the stage for Palin's general election campaign. She promised to overhaul ethics laws and re-examine the state's relationships with the oil industry.

It wasn't just the VECO scandal: Alaskans were fed up with high gas prices and with Exxon's court fight to avoid paying punitive damages in connection with the Exxon Valdez oil tanker spill, Green says.

"It became kind of the thing to do to, quote, hate the industry," she says. "That became part of her campaign: We're not gonna let these people tell us what to do anymore. The raids really emboldened her to run against the party, run against the industry."

Palin told the Associated Press in October 2006, "I've been blessed with the right timing."

It was a three-way race against a seasoned former governor, Democrat Tony Knowles, and a former legislator, Andrew Halcro. There were 23 debates, says Bitney, who helped Palin prepare. She wasn't particularly conversant with public policy, he recalls, but she "learned enough about issues to know where not to go."

She didn't shy away from her conservative stands on social issues. But at one debate, she said she favored teaching students about contraception, including condoms.

Palin won with 48% of the vote. In her State of the State address in January, she promised to shelve the pipeline deal her predecessor had cut behind closed doors and reopen the bidding. In July, as the scandal mushroomed, she signed a bill requiring disclosure of lobbyist gifts to legislators.

On Dec. 19, she signed the oil tax increase. Six days before, in the U.S. Senate, an energy bill that would have repealed billions in tax breaks for oil companies failed by one vote. Obama voted yea; McCain skipped the vote.

Financial news service Bloomberg opined that when it comes to extracting more revenue from oil companies, Palin, "is succeeding where Venezuela President Hugo Chávez, a former paratrooper and military coup leader, so far has failed."

Anchorage lawyer Allison Mendel, who sued the state on behalf of partners seeking same-sex health benefits, says she doesn't think Palin's restraint on social issues in Alaska would necessarily translate in Washington.

Mendel says Palin hasn't pushed cultural conservatism because it wasn't politically expedient, not because she didn't want to. "Almost all the time she has been governor has been totally taken up with ethics and oil," Mendel says.

Indeed, there once was a governor from a conservative state who was known for his ability to work with Democrats. His campaign theme was "compassionate conservatism," and his name was George W. Bush.

Many observers, including both candidates running for president this year, say Washington is more divided and rancorous than ever.

[Barb]

mccain on palin's foreign policy experience = you can see russia from alaska

mccain jokes about an earmark to study bear dna while simultaneously palin is requesting an earmark to study seal dna

the humor never ends. seems my candidate never wins the election, as least the last two, i'll suffer great depression if i have to suffer through 4 years of these yahoos. hillary 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj6TvUQ_0to&NR=1 a little humor for this sunday morn.

How 'bout those "57 states"? "Typical white person"... "punished with a baby".... the list goes on and on.

[Lula]

put things in context if you please. i could grab many quotes to put mccain in a bad light.

"hundred year war in iraq" etc......

maybe the obama camp should run an ad saying mccain does not care about teaching our children about the dangers of child predators and how to protect themselves.... yeah, mccain supports the rights of pedophiles over the rights of children. completely absurd, as absurd as saying obama wants to teach our children about sex before they are taught how to read, this position from a father of two little girls..... give me a break .

[Monker]

I cannot believe I just read this from you, Rick. You are usually a kind-hearted person, so I'm surprised that you would be sympathetic to Saddam Hussein. You DO remember that he brutally tortured and murdered his OWN people, right?

Why the hell were peole not complaining about this WHEN IT HAPPENED? Why was the first Bush not talking about invasion THEN? Why did it take around 10yrs for people to bitch about it and use it as an excuse for war?

As far as being a 'long-standing' ally, there was a time when the US and Iraq were friends. Then this little thing called Desert Storm happened, and although he hasn't told me personally, I'd be willing to bet that ol' Saddam held a grudge against us for that.

Which happened in part because Iraq needed more oil money to fund their war machine against Iran...a war which we supported Iraq in.

I mean, what the hell were we thinking

I guess we were thinking he was a kool dude and deserved our support and help cuz Iran was evil.

I'm not linking Iraq to 9-11 here, but I do believe that if Saddam Hussein could've helped in any way to 'put us in our place' he would've done so.

We were not his enemy. We were a distraction from his real enemy - Iran...and other Islamic fundamentalists. He was no different then any other dictator in the world. His motivation is power - getting it and holding on to it.

Why didn't we invade Cuba? The could have actualy tried to swim over and invade Florida. That's more of a threat then Iraq. And, we could all have a new vacation destination.

Perhaps George W. Bush has made mistakes, MANY mistakes.

Perhaps? LOL. And, perhaps John McCain is old.

However, there are some facts that ring true: The US hasn't been attacked since they took matters into their own hands in Afghanistan and Iraq

But, other places were...which proves that Al Queda was not as weakened as you would like to believe.

and 2 entire countries can now exercise freedoms that before the wars only a select FEW could experience, including but not limited to civil liberties.

That is VERY unclear. NEITHER government is firmly standing. We have NO IDEA where the future goes.

Finally, what really chaps my ass about all this talk is that people bitch cause the man didn't do enough, and then bitch when he did something proactively. There is NO winning with some people.

He didn't do enough demosticaly...and that is directly tied to the fuck ups in Iraq and the missed opportunity in Afghanistan.

I say to anyone until you sit your ass in the oval office and have to make these decisions, take it easy and just STFU. (not you specifically Rick, just people in general. )

I say that it is our civic duty to point out the OBVIOUS fuck-ups of a President as incompetent as Bush. He should NOT be allowed to get away with being the worst president in our history without the citizens expressing how bad he actually is.

[Barb]

put things in context if you please. i could grab many quotes to put mccain in a bad light.

"hundred year war in iraq" etc......

maybe the obama camp should run an ad saying mccain does not care about teaching our children about the dangers of child predators and how to protect themselves.... yeah, mccain supports the rights of pedophiles over the rights of children. completely absurd, as absurd as saying obama wants to teach our children about sex before they are taught how to read, this position from a father of two little girls..... give me a break .

Lighten up, Lu. My point is that they are under pressure and make silly mistakes. Nothing to get too worked up about, is it really?

[donnaplease]

I cannot believe I just read this from you, Rick. You are usually a kind-hearted person, so I'm surprised that you would be sympathetic to Saddam Hussein. You DO remember that he brutally tortured and murdered his OWN people, right?

Why the hell were peole not complaining about this WHEN IT HAPPENED? Why was the first Bush not talking about invasion THEN? Why did it take around 10yrs for people to bitch about it and use it as an excuse for war?

As far as being a 'long-standing' ally, there was a time when the US and Iraq were friends. Then this little thing called Desert Storm happened, and although he hasn't told me personally, I'd be willing to bet that ol' Saddam held a grudge against us for that.

Which happened in part because Iraq needed more oil money to fund their war machine against Iran...a war which we supported Iraq in.

I mean, what the hell were we thinking

I guess we were thinking he was a kool dude and deserved our support and help cuz Iran was evil.

I'm not linking Iraq to 9-11 here, but I do believe that if Saddam Hussein could've helped in any way to 'put us in our place' he would've done so.

We were not his enemy. We were a distraction from his real enemy - Iran...and other Islamic fundamentalists. He was no different then any other dictator in the world. His motivation is power - getting it and holding on to it.

Why didn't we invade Cuba? The could have actualy tried to swim over and invade Florida. That's more of a threat then Iraq. And, we could all have a new vacation destination.

Perhaps George W. Bush has made mistakes, MANY mistakes.

Perhaps? LOL. And, perhaps John McCain is old.

However, there are some facts that ring true: The US hasn't been attacked since they took matters into their own hands in Afghanistan and Iraq

But, other places were...which proves that Al Queda was not as weakened as you would like to believe.

and 2 entire countries can now exercise freedoms that before the wars only a select FEW could experience, including but not limited to civil liberties.

That is VERY unclear. NEITHER government is firmly standing. We have NO IDEA where the future goes.

Finally, what really chaps my ass about all this talk is that people bitch cause the man didn't do enough, and then bitch when he did something proactively. There is NO winning with some people.

He didn't do enough demosticaly...and that is directly tied to the fuck ups in Iraq and the missed opportunity in Afghanistan.

I say to anyone until you sit your ass in the oval office and have to make these decisions, take it easy and just STFU. (not you specifically Rick, just people in general. )

I say that it is our civic duty to point out the OBVIOUS fuck-ups of a President as incompetent as Bush. He should NOT be allowed to get away with being the worst president in our history without the citizens expressing how bad he actually is.

Monker, your points get lost in all this cut & paste shit. Can't you just make a statement about what you feel without micro-analyzing everything to death? And, if you are gonna do that, please do it right. Don't misquote me.

I mean, what the hell were we thinking, sending him & his boys packing after they invaded their neighbor...?

referred to us helping Kuwait after Iraq invaded them. It had nothing to do with Iran. And if you think Saddam Hussein is a "kool dude" that says all I need to know about you.

[Lula]

i'm not worked up, not at all. just want to be realistic and point out some of the absurdities coming out of the mccain camp. from a partial reading of the article you posted, seems palin is good at playing that political game to her advantage. i don't support her or her policies. she is a politician capable of speaking out of both sides of her mouth, no different from the rest.

and i wasn't pointing out silly mistakes, but rather real contradictions.

[Barb]

i'm not worked up, not at all. just want to be realistic and point out some of the absurdities coming out of the mccain camp. from a partial reading of the article you posted, seems palin is good at playing that political game to her advantage. i don't support her or her policies. she is a politician capable of speaking out of both sides of her mouth, no different from the rest.

and i wasn't pointing out silly mistakes, but rather real contradictions.

Oh, I see. I thought your big problem with her was her religion interfering with how she governs. I see that is not the case. Now she is just a typical pandering pol. Got it.

[donnaplease]

maybe the obama camp should run an ad saying mccain does not care about teaching our children about the dangers of child predators and how to protect themselves.... yeah, mccain supports the rights of pedophiles over the rights of children. completely absurd, as absurd as saying obama wants to teach our children about sex before they are taught how to read, this position from a father of two little girls..... give me a break .

I haven't heard/read a whole lot about this, but I have a question... How does teaching a child about contraception and STDs protect them from child predators? I have no problems with 'family life' (I taught it to older students as a school nurse), and our guidance counselors currently address things like being touched inappropriately, etc.

I don't know how I feel about this issue. On one hand, I think our kids are being given too much information, and by people who should not be responsible for giving them that information. On the other, I understand that with knowledge comes power, and the ability to tell right from wrong. I talk to my children openly about any issue that they have questions about (my youngest is 8 years old), but I'm not sure how I would feel about my kid's teacher doing it. I do believe it's the parent's responsibility to teach the children these sensitive issues, but there are so many parents out there who simply fail to do so.

IDK the right answer here. I think our society is going to hell in a handbasket, and with it our core values.

[S2M]

Get with the program....People are SELFISH, at the core. And those who buck the system just hide it well. It is all about survival. Adapt and survive. I don't trust anyone anymore. I'm always trying to figure out the angle. Cause there's ALWAYS an angle. Sad but true....

Politicians are masters of this........