Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[Enigma869]

As far as government and religion being co-mingled... our country and it's government were created with a foundation in religious beliefs. You can never fully separate the two without becoming something totally different than what we were destined to be.

We will agree to disagree on this point. Nobody will ever convince me that government has any right endorsing any one religion. Anyone who actually believes that the government should endorse one religion doesn't understand the big picture, and the potential for alienating everyone not affiliated with the one religion the government decides to endorse! The other point I'll make is that how things were when our government was created, we were a country of FAR less diversity than we are today. Just because things were a certain way 200 years ago doesn't mean they should be that way in 2008. Times change, and our government should always change to reflect the times that we live in!

What are the horrendous acts that have happened in the name of religion?

I personally read half a dozen stories every year about parents who refuse medical treatment for their sick child, because "it's against their religion"! One girl recently died, because her moronic parents refused to get the poor girl the insulin she needed to control her diabetes. As far as I'm concerned, these people are no different than any other person committing a homicide, and should be prosecuted, accordingly! People who actually think "praying away" a serious medical condition their children have, are too stupid and irresponsible to be parents!

Here is a link to the 11 year old girl who died, because her parents refused medical treatment...

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/06/12/ ... ical-help/

Here is a link to more brilliant religious "scholars" who decided to starve their 21 month old for not saying "Amen"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 511910.ece

Here is a link to the deaths of two more innocent children in Oregon...all in the name of "religious freedom"!

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/19/fa ... s-beliefs/

Here is a link to a story on an Amish family, refusing their 17 month old to have life saving heart surgery...

http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008/09 ... condition/

Here is another brilliant parent who starved her son on "religious grounds". This woman was actually a member of a mainstream "Christian" church!

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 21,00.html

These stories are endless, and I could have posted 50 more! The sad reality is that all but one of these crimes happened on U.S. soil, and none of them happened in the Middle East. What they all have in common are religious whackos who believe that their "religious rights" are more important than the rights of the human lives they are responsible for taking care of!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

I personally read half a dozen stories every year about parents who refuse medical treatment for their sick child, because "it's against their religion"! One girl recently died, because her moronic parents refused to get the poor girl the insulin she needed to control her diabetes. As far as I'm concerned, these people are no different than any other person committing a homicide, and should be prosecuted, accordingly! People who actually think "praying away" a serious medical condition their children have, are too stupid and irresponsible to be parents!

Here is a link to the 11 year old girl who died, because her parents refused medical treatment...

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/06/12/ ... ical-help/

Here is a link to more brilliant religious "scholars" who decided to starve their 21 month old for not saying "Amen"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 511910.ece

Here is a link to the deaths of two more innocent children in Oregon...all in the name of "religious freedom"!

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/19/fa ... s-beliefs/

Here is a link to a story on an Amish family, refusing their 17 month old to have life saving heart surgery...

http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008/09 ... condition/

Here is another brilliant parent who starved her son on "religious grounds". This woman was actually a member of a mainstream "Christian" church!

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 21,00.html

These stories are endless, and I could have posted 50 more! The sad reality is that all but one of these crimes happened on U.S. soil, and none of them happened in the Middle East. What they all have in common are religious whackos who believe that their "religious rights" are more important than the rights of the human lives they are responsible for taking care of!


John from Boston

All sickos. As far as the comment about the Middle East, though, it's commonplace in many Islamic countries for honor killings to occur. A parent can put their child to death for converting to Christianity, for instance, or a man can kill his wife for any number of reasons. It's pretty disgusting.

[Jana]

"infinityplusone said: I believe 'God' is a generally benevolent, somewhat absent-minded entity who wants the best for us. He doesn't muck about in the day-to-day and rarely, if ever, answers prayers. The representation of a 'supreme being' that best matches this is the old guy at the end of the film 'Time Bandits'. Even though it was written tongue-in-cheek, it's a startingly insightful version of a realistic God.

And if you think about it, it just makes the most sense. I find it comforting that God is not involved with us on a personal level for the most part. After all, where is the logic in "answering" some prayers and ignoring others? Why do football players and politicians pray for certain outcomes? Are there wishes/desires/requests more significant than those of starving kids in other parts of the world?

The whole premise is just silly. If God is real and deigns to address some suffering, and ignore others, then that's not a God I can support. "God works in myserious ways" = Sorry, you loose.

The closer I get to feeling the presence of God, the people who publically worship him just annoy me too much, and I back off."



This is exactly how I've come to feel. I've become so conflicted about how God would allow such horrible things to happen to good people or innocent children. I saw a woman on T.V. once talking about how God saved her husband on 9-11. What, God decided not to save all the other poor souls who perished? And children who are raped, mutilated, tortured at the hands of monsters. What kind of God wouldn't save them? I was beginning to really question my faith for a long time. So how I resolved my conflict about this was to come to the conclusion you stated above.


"Arnel makes me a better guy just knowing him" - Jonathan Cain

[Enigma869]

As far as the comment about the Middle East, though, it's commonplace in many Islamic countries for honor killings to occur. A parent can put their child to death for converting to Christianity, for instance, or a man can kill his wife for any number of reasons. It's pretty disgusting.

I'm actually well aware of the "honor killings" that occur in The Middle East. It's quite commonplace, and I agree with you that it is VERY disgusting. My reference to The Middle East was because Donna asked for examples of religious yahoos in this country and "not The Middle East". I was simply making the point that there is no shortage of religious whack jobs in our own back yard! This shit happens, daily, in this country, and it's simply one more reason (and it's definitely not the only reason) that I despise organized religion. Although I do believe there are some genuinely nice and sincere people, who happen to be religious, I believe there are many others who use their religion as an excuse for everything under the sun!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

Although I do believe there are some genuinely nice and sincere people, who happen to be religious, I believe there are many others who use their religion as an excuse for everything under the sun!

In my opinion, most people in this country claiming to be Christians are Christians in name only. Being baptized or going to church occasionally or even every Sunday isn't what makes a person a Christian. I've heard them called "Sunday go to meeting" Christians because they go to church on Sunday and play the part of a Christian but they live like hell the rest of the week. Pathetic.

[bluejeangirl76]

Although I do believe there are some genuinely nice and sincere people, who happen to be religious, I believe there are many others who use their religion as an excuse for everything under the sun!

In my opinion, most people in this country claiming to be Christians are Christians in name only. Being baptized or going to church occasionally or even every Sunday isn't what makes a person a Christian. I've heard them called "Sunday go to meeting" Christians because they go to church on Sunday and play the part of a Christian but they live like hell the rest of the week. Pathetic.

I agree. if you're going to claim the title, live it. As I said above, people use it when its convenient.

[donnaplease]

As far as government and religion being co-mingled... our country and it's government were created with a foundation in religious beliefs. You can never fully separate the two without becoming something totally different than what we were destined to be.

We will agree to disagree on this point. Nobody will ever convince me that government has any right endorsing any one religion. Anyone who actually believes that the government should endorse one religion doesn't understand the big picture, and the potential for alienating everyone not affiliated with the one religion the government decides to endorse! The other point I'll make is that how things were when our government was created, we were a country of FAR less diversity than we are today. Just because things were a certain way 200 years ago doesn't mean they should be that way in 2008. Times change, and our government should always change to reflect the times that we live in!

What are the horrendous acts that have happened in the name of religion?

I personally read half a dozen stories every year about parents who refuse medical treatment for their sick child, because "it's against their religion"! One girl recently died, because her moronic parents refused to get the poor girl the insulin she needed to control her diabetes. As far as I'm concerned, these people are no different than any other person committing a homicide, and should be prosecuted, accordingly! People who actually think "praying away" a serious medical condition their children have, are too stupid and irresponsible to be parents!

Here is a link to the 11 year old girl who died, because her parents refused medical treatment...

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/06/12/ ... ical-help/

Here is a link to more brilliant religious "scholars" who decided to starve their 21 month old for not saying "Amen"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 511910.ece

Here is a link to the deaths of two more innocent children in Oregon...all in the name of "religious freedom"!

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/19/fa ... s-beliefs/

Here is a link to a story on an Amish family, refusing their 17 month old to have life saving heart surgery...

http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008/09 ... condition/

Here is another brilliant parent who starved her son on "religious grounds". This woman was actually a member of a mainstream "Christian" church!

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 21,00.html

These stories are endless, and I could have posted 50 more! The sad reality is that all but one of these crimes happened on U.S. soil, and none of them happened in the Middle East. What they all have in common are religious whackos who believe that their "religious rights" are more important than the rights of the human lives they are responsible for taking care of!


John from Boston

Thanks for posting these, John. Please forgive me if I don't read them though. I've heard about stories like this, and like you, it PISSES me off and literally makes me nauseous.

However, you must admit that these are the people that have serious mental defects, not your 'average' Christian. Hell, look at Andrea Yates (see, I'm helping you! ), she was clearly a nutbar. I guess all I'm saying is that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush. Just because someone considers themself a christian it doesn't mean that he's out to take your soul from you.

As for our society, I am of the belief that some people are so radical in their thinking, and ANTI- whatever...not because that's what they really stand for, but just because they can be. I think they protest things like posting the 10 commandments in public places just to have something to bitch about, not because they are truly offended by them. That's what gripes my ass.

[Sarah]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

[conversationpc]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

[Rick]

We've got one Running Scared Agnostic.

That's a term I learned from my Crew Chief at work. I knew they existed, I had just never heard it called that.

[Sarah]

We have a soul

That's human arrogance right there.

[artist4perry]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

Problem with Darwinian theory is it is flawed. Everything works together too well to be accidental. Also, scientist claim that matter cannot come from nothing. That is the number one rule, but their big bang theory claims matter comes from nothing? Sorry, I am not a decendent of an ape. I will not ever claim such. Scientist can be wrong. They used to think the world was flat. The old testement refers to the world as round! There is as much to prove creationism as darwinian theories, the only difference is scientist don't want to tell you this. Prove creationism is fiction. It has as much to support it as Darwinism. Some have gone so far as to fake bones to try and prove darwinism. What transitional bones have been found that show one creature of one species changing to another? None. Lucy was found to be a hoax. There was a science documentary on the history channel I watched that showed that they kept that one a secret for 20 years before it was exposed. Books still claim it to be a fact when it was disproved. How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact? Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Lula]

another sick practice hiding under the religion cloak

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... child_porn

[Arianddu]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

Magic man done it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdocQHsPCNM&fmt=18

Believe in god is delusional...
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2006 ... nal-p1.php

Prayer is superstition...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&fmt=18

10 Questions that every intelligent Christian must answer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18

Religion and morality...
http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm

“When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me.”

My favourite line I've got to get on a t-shirt:

"Evolution is Just a Theory - Intelligent Design
Gravity is Also Just a Theory - Intelligent Sucking"

[artist4perry]

another sick practice hiding under the religion cloak

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... child_porn

They were not Christians. Hypocrite comes to mind, sicko comes to mind. A person can claim to be a doctor, but unless they get the degree it doesn't make them one does it? To use this as an excuse to dismiss all Christianity as bad is ridiculous.

[Lula]

another sick practice hiding under the religion cloak

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... child_porn

They were not Christians. Hypocrite comes to mind, sicko comes to mind. A person can claim to be a doctor, but unless they get the degree it doesn't make them one does it? To use this as an excuse to dismiss all Christianity as bad is ridiculous.

lol, i'm not dismissing all christianity, not at all. me not being a fan of organized religion is irrelevant in this. i just read a story that made me sick and decided to bring it into the thread. take it as you wish

[artist4perry]

another sick practice hiding under the religion cloak

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... child_porn

They were not Christians. Hypocrite comes to mind, sicko comes to mind. A person can claim to be a doctor, but unless they get the degree it doesn't make them one does it? To use this as an excuse to dismiss all Christianity as bad is ridiculous.

lol, i'm not dismissing all christianity, not at all. me not being a fan of organized religion is irrelevant in this. i just read a story that made me sick and decided to bring it into the thread. take it as you wish

I appologize then! Some use the acts of crazy people and evil people who claim to be Christians as a reason to hate Christianity. That was what I thought was your purpose. Sorry!

[Lula]

no problem. i don't hate..... too harsh and i try never to generalize. clearly the acts in the story would not be committed by any God fearing individual .

[Rick]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

Problem with Darwinian theory is it is flawed. Everything works together too well to be accidental. Also, scientist claim that matter cannot come from nothing. That is the number one rule, but their big bang theory claims matter comes from nothing? Sorry, I am not a descendant of an ape. I will not ever claim such. Scientist can be wrong. They used to think the world was flat. The old testament refers to the world as round! There is as much to prove creationism as Darwinian theories, the only difference is scientist don't want to tell you this. Prove creationism is fiction. It has as much to support it as Darwinism. Some have gone so far as to fake bones to try and prove Darwinism. What transitional bones have been found that show one creature of one species changing to another? None. Lucy was found to be a hoax. There was a science documentary on the history channel I watched that showed that they kept that one a secret for 20 years before it was exposed. Books still claim it to be a fact when it was disproved. How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact? Sorry, I don't buy it.

I agree. If the universe is made of noble gases and carbon compounds, they had to come from somewhere.

The problem humans have, is they can't comprehend infinity, nothingness, or the end of time. If we can't comprehend any of these things, trying to figure out how things started is not in our list of possibilities.

[Arianddu]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

Problem with Darwinian theory is it is flawed. Everything works together too well to be accidental. Also, scientist claim that matter cannot come from nothing. That is the number one rule, but their big bang theory claims matter comes from nothing? Sorry, I am not a decendent of an ape. I will not ever claim such. Scientist can be wrong. They used to think the world was flat. The old testement refers to the world as round! There is as much to prove creationism as darwinian theories, the only difference is scientist don't want to tell you this. Prove creationism is fiction. It has as much to support it as Darwinism. Some have gone so far as to fake bones to try and prove darwinism. What transitional bones have been found that show one creature of one species changing to another? None. Lucy was found to be a hoax. There was a science documentary on the history channel I watched that showed that they kept that one a secret for 20 years before it was exposed. Books still claim it to be a fact when it was disproved. How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Without making any comment on your faith what you've just writen is highly inaccurate, shows a decided ignorance of scientific theory and history, and really isn't worthy of you (sorry!)

I'm not going to make any comment on your belief, but I get tired of people posting stuff like this as fact. Evolutionary theory does not claim things are 'accidental' - that's a highly simplistic view of it. It's like saying the whole of the Bible, all of it's philosophy, guidance, poetry, etc, can be summed up as "Don't Sin." You want to see evolution in action? Go to a Dog Show and look at human directed evolutionary pressure in action! 'Lucy' was always known to be a fake, and there are no legitimate science books that promote the idea that it isn't. Scientists never claimed the world was flat. Scientists don't claim 'matter cannot come from nothing', nor has any scientist ever tried to prove Darwinism - because that's not how Scientific Theory works: you look at the observable facts, you try to come up with an explaination (hypothesis) and then you test it to see if it stands up. If it doesn't you find a different explaination that fits better, you don't try to prove yourself right!

I'm sorry if this comes across as aggressive - as I said, I have no comments to make on your personal beliefs. But I have to ask you this - you've said "How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact?" Any scientist who does that it not following good scientific theory, but they are behaving like a human being, wanting to be right even if they have to lie to do it.

I have been lied to by Christians, I've been robbed by Christians, I've couselled women who were raped and beaten by their husbands and were told by their Pastors that they had to accept it because the Bible said it is the right of a man to chastise his wife, and she has no right to refuse him sex, besides which women must suffer for the sins of Eve. I am told that gays should be classed as sinners, because the bible prohibits men from lying with other men as if they were women, so why are eaters of shellfish, or people who wear clothes made from wool and linen blends not sinners? The bible classes them together, so why can [some] Christians justify one but not the other? And when I listen to a Minister preaching fire and brimstone and how the adulterers and homosexuals and non-believers will burn in hell for eternity, why is it not acceptable for me to stand up and say "Judge not others, lest ye also be judged" or "Cast not the first stone unless you be free from sin"? The bible has been used by people I personally know to justify polygamy, incest, physical and sexual child abuse, murder/killing of human beings, torture, extreme veganism even for infants and permanent nudity.

The point to this little diatribe is this - how do you now feel about me if I say "How can I trust when Christians are willing to cover up and lie to support a belief as a fact?"
Am I justified in saying this about all Christians? How about all bankers? Or all people with blue eyes? Or all people born on Tuesday?

People are people - flawed, biased, prone to making mistakes and prone to believing themselves to be right, even when shown evidence that they could be wrong, whether scientist, christian, both or neither.

[Greg]

Dude...I could care less what you or "most normal" people consider shoving religion down your throats. My perception is my reality, and if it's not your reality, good for you!

Whatever. Just sounds a bit irrational in my opinion.

Right, but seeing a church (or at least what people in the south call a church) every 2 feet is simply a bit much for me. When I travel the New Jersey Turnpike, seeing a toll booth every 27 feet is "just what it is, a toll booth". That doesn't mean I have to like it!

Again, so what? Who are you to say these churches can't be there? If the mere sight of a church causes you to have some kind of mental breakdown, then it's something you need to get checked out.

I never claimed it "threatened me or my privacy". I simply said that for a guy who grew up in the most Catholic city in America, it was bizarre to see religion turned into an industry!

How is it turned into an industry?

Well, I saw it with my own two eyes and thought it was absurd. Just because you see nothing wrong with it, doesn't mean that others don't. The main problem I have with "Evangelical Christians" is their belief that their religion is the only one that exists and the only one that matters! Living in the south, I found the superiority complex to be very arrogant and frankly, not very "Christian Like"!

John. This belief isn't limited to Evangelical Christians nor is it limited to Christianity. You simply chose them because they have caused you to have some type of conviction in your life that you're angry about.

It's freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

This is a MORONIC statement! Freedom of speech and freedom of religion doesn't apply to the U.S. Government. You make a jackass statement like this, and then further down in this very reply, you say something to the effect "Hey, the government is supposed to represent all people". No shit, Sherlock! Precisely why the Government for "all people" shouldn't be advertising their own religion all over a government building that non-Christians also have to conduct their business in! The thing I learned about religion a very long time ago is that religious zealots will support their religion, no matter what. Even if it infringes on someone else's rights, it's all okay, as long as it's in the name of their God. This attitude is beyond arrogant and ridiculous!

Wow, talk about hypocritical. You're calling me a moron and a jackass and then saying my attitude is beyond arrogant and ridiculous. I'd suggest you take a look at yourself and see just how arrogant you've portrayed yourself to be. I'm not sure exactly what religious messages on marquees at fast food restaurants have anything to do with the U.S. government. Those fast food restaurants are privately owned businesses. They are in the private sector. Which means, they are NOT owned by the government genius. Which means the government has NO BUSINESS telling those business owners what they can or cannot have on those marquees. If they wanted to put a message up that says, "I love Satan" or "John's an idiot" then they can do so! The only thing the government has control over is making sure those restaurants are up with health and safety standards. People like you confuse the Freedom of Religion as being Freedom From Religion, which is incorrect.

People should have the right to a voice.

Yes, people do. The government doesn't, when it comes to matters of religion!

Thanks captain obvious! Nobody ever said government has a voice in religion.

As far seeing religious references on marguees of fast-food restaurants, well, they also have that right John. Those businesses are private businesses.

This proves that you have no idea what you're talking about. Most fast-food restaurants in this country may indeed be franchises, but that doesn't change the fact that the parent companies (that would be the name on the sign) are almost all publically traded companies. The particular restaurant that I saw many religious references on were Wendy's. In the event you still believe Wendy's is a "private" business, I'd suggest heading over to the New York Stock Exchange and type in the ticker symbol "Wen". I think you'll learn that there is nothing "private" about their company!

Just because a company's stock is open to be traded on the New York Stock Exchange doesn't necessarily mean it's a public company. Generally, yes, but not always. I'd suggest if you're that offended about the marquee, you'd grow a pair and ask the manager to take the message down.

Another self-righteous, yahoo, religious fanatic telling me that I'm "convicted of something that you know is not right in your life"! Thanks for proving my point about you religious dopes! You fuckers can't stand not to be preaching, and it's nauseating!

Again, who's the one being arrogant? Self-righteous? Have you even been reading the stuff you've typed? Please, enough of your senseless diatribe. I've struck a nerve because obviously there must be some truth in my assumption of you. Especially when you result to senseless insults and attacks. Very mature.

Two points here...If "colorful language" truly offends you, then you shouldn't be visiting a site like this. Religion offends me, and that's why I don't visit or participate in any religious forums on the internet. My final point is ....save the "freedom of speech" bullshit! NOBODY has an absolute "Freedom" to anything. I have a Legal Studies Degree so have some knowledge of Constitutional Law. Your rights end where my rights begin! If you truly believe that you have an asbolute "Freedom of Speech", I'd suggest popping your head into your local, crowded theater and yelling fire when there is no fire! Let me know how that works out for you!

John from Boston

Read your first sentence again John. What is it that I've been telling you all this time. If you don't like religious messages on certain restaurants you patron, then DON'T GO TO THOSE RESTAURANTS! I chose to post here regardless of the language (and the insults you hurl at people for no reason.) Nobody held a gun up to my head. I made A CHOICE! I exercised my freedoms. I never said anything about absolute freedoms. You're making arguments that nobody else has made. I'd suggest quit whining about it and face it like a man. If you feel religious people shouldn't have freedoms, then do what you need to do to change it. Let ME know how THAT works out for you!

[artist4perry]

We've all been deluded for centuries. Since Darwin we know where we come from and why things are the way they are.
I can understand the success of religion in our pre-Darwin history, we are born somewhere in a chain of evolution which has been going on for the past 4,5 billion years and we try to find a logical explanation of where we come from. The most simple view is then to believe someone created us like we create stuff ourselves. Thanks to Darwin we (should) know better.
The problem with most religious people I know is that they don't fully understand the process of evolution, often ridiculized and taught wrongly
(on purpose) by their religious leaders.
The only thing that makes us different from other mammals is the way our brain works... rational thinking, and yet most people prefer to believe fiction (creationism) above science (evolution).

I'm glad someone said this.

I don't know why people can't get over the fact that humans are indeed animals when it all comes down to it. Oh, we're so much better than animals. Right.

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

Problem with Darwinian theory is it is flawed. Everything works together too well to be accidental. Also, scientist claim that matter cannot come from nothing. That is the number one rule, but their big bang theory claims matter comes from nothing? Sorry, I am not a decendent of an ape. I will not ever claim such. Scientist can be wrong. They used to think the world was flat. The old testement refers to the world as round! There is as much to prove creationism as darwinian theories, the only difference is scientist don't want to tell you this. Prove creationism is fiction. It has as much to support it as Darwinism. Some have gone so far as to fake bones to try and prove darwinism. What transitional bones have been found that show one creature of one species changing to another? None. Lucy was found to be a hoax. There was a science documentary on the history channel I watched that showed that they kept that one a secret for 20 years before it was exposed. Books still claim it to be a fact when it was disproved. How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Without making any comment on your faith what you've just writen is highly inaccurate, shows a decided ignorance of scientific theory and history, and really isn't worthy of you (sorry!)

I'm not going to make any comment on your belief, but I get tired of people posting stuff like this as fact. Evolutionary theory does not claim things are 'accidental' - that's a highly simplistic view of it. It's like saying the whole of the Bible, all of it's philosophy, guidance, poetry, etc, can be summed up as "Don't Sin." You want to see evolution in action? Go to a Dog Show and look at human directed evolutionary pressure in action! 'Lucy' was always known to be a fake, and there are no legitimate science books that promote the idea that it isn't. Scientists never claimed the world was flat. Scientists don't claim 'matter cannot come from nothing', nor has any scientist ever tried to prove Darwinism - because that's not how Scientific Theory works: you look at the observable facts, you try to come up with an explaination (hypothesis) and then you test it to see if it stands up. If it doesn't you find a different explaination that fits better, you don't try to prove yourself right!

I'm sorry if this comes across as aggressive - as I said, I have no comments to make on your personal beliefs. But I have to ask you this - you've said "How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact?" Any scientist who does that it not following good scientific theory, but they are behaving like a human being, wanting to be right even if they have to lie to do it.

I have been lied to by Christians, I've been robbed by Christians, I've couselled women who were raped and beaten by their husbands and were told by their Pastors that they had to accept it because the Bible said it is the right of a man to chastise his wife, and she has no right to refuse him sex, besides which women must suffer for the sins of Eve. I am told that gays should be classed as sinners, because the bible prohibits men from lying with other men as if they were women, so why are eaters of shellfish, or people who wear clothes made from wool and linen blends not sinners? The bible classes them together, so why can [some] Christians justify one but not the other? And when I listen to a Minister preaching fire and brimstone and how the adulterers and homosexuals and non-believers will burn in hell for eternity, why is it not acceptable for me to stand up and say "Judge not others, lest ye also be judged" or "Cast not the first stone unless you be free from sin"? The bible has been used by people I personally know to justify polygamy, incest, physical and sexual child abuse, murder/killing of human beings, torture, extreme veganism even for infants and permanent nudity.

The point to this little diatribe is this - how do you now feel about me if I say "How can I trust when Christians are willing to cover up and lie to support a belief as a fact?"
Am I justified in saying this about all Christians? How about all bankers? Or all people with blue eyes? Or all people born on Tuesday?

People are people - flawed, biased, prone to making mistakes and prone to believing themselves to be right, even when shown evidence that they could be wrong, whether scientist, christian, both or neither.

What I was trying to say is that there are scientist who preach Darwinism as a fact and not a theory. Creationism is a theory and has just as many scientific facts to support it. Things to me work together too well to be what I have been taught by my Biology teacher in College! The Biology book we used a year ago claims Lucy to be a fact. As for what I wrote as being "flawed" then blame the Biology teachers. That was what they taught me in school. I don't happen to find the Darwin theory to be that true. It has not been proven as a fact. And I did not say all scientist are not trying to seek the truth. Some do. There are scientist who truely try to get to the truth. But there are some who will lie because they want everyone to buy Darwinism as a fact. The person above claimed that Creationism is fiction. They have no proof of this. You are right about my generalizing on the scientist. But I still hold that Darwinism is a theory and only this to this day. I get equally tired of hearing it being preached as a fact. I do not appreciate the insinuation from the above writer that I am not intelligent because I do not agree with the Darwin theory. If they wish to only believe in the Darwin theory that is their perogitive. Best wishes to you, I am not trying to be aggressive on this matter, but it also needs to be said that it is unfair to call me dumb because I will not see a theory as a fact. Also what you said about people using the bible to do terrible things, these are not Christians. Those are what we call hypocrites.

[Arianddu]

Without making any comment on your faith what you've just writen is highly inaccurate, shows a decided ignorance of scientific theory and history, and really isn't worthy of you (sorry!)

I'm not going to make any comment on your belief, but I get tired of people posting stuff like this as fact. Evolutionary theory does not claim things are 'accidental' - that's a highly simplistic view of it. It's like saying the whole of the Bible, all of it's philosophy, guidance, poetry, etc, can be summed up as "Don't Sin." You want to see evolution in action? Go to a Dog Show and look at human directed evolutionary pressure in action! 'Lucy' was always known to be a fake, and there are no legitimate science books that promote the idea that it isn't. Scientists never claimed the world was flat. Scientists don't claim 'matter cannot come from nothing', nor has any scientist ever tried to prove Darwinism - because that's not how Scientific Theory works: you look at the observable facts, you try to come up with an explaination (hypothesis) and then you test it to see if it stands up. If it doesn't you find a different explaination that fits better, you don't try to prove yourself right!

I'm sorry if this comes across as aggressive - as I said, I have no comments to make on your personal beliefs. But I have to ask you this - you've said "How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact?" Any scientist who does that it not following good scientific theory, but they are behaving like a human being, wanting to be right even if they have to lie to do it.

I have been lied to by Christians, I've been robbed by Christians, I've couselled women who were raped and beaten by their husbands and were told by their Pastors that they had to accept it because the Bible said it is the right of a man to chastise his wife, and she has no right to refuse him sex, besides which women must suffer for the sins of Eve. I am told that gays should be classed as sinners, because the bible prohibits men from lying with other men as if they were women, so why are eaters of shellfish, or people who wear clothes made from wool and linen blends not sinners? The bible classes them together, so why can [some] Christians justify one but not the other? And when I listen to a Minister preaching fire and brimstone and how the adulterers and homosexuals and non-believers will burn in hell for eternity, why is it not acceptable for me to stand up and say "Judge not others, lest ye also be judged" or "Cast not the first stone unless you be free from sin"? The bible has been used by people I personally know to justify polygamy, incest, physical and sexual child abuse, murder/killing of human beings, torture, extreme veganism even for infants and permanent nudity.

The point to this little diatribe is this - how do you now feel about me if I say "How can I trust when Christians are willing to cover up and lie to support a belief as a fact?"
Am I justified in saying this about all Christians? How about all bankers? Or all people with blue eyes? Or all people born on Tuesday?

People are people - flawed, biased, prone to making mistakes and prone to believing themselves to be right, even when shown evidence that they could be wrong, whether scientist, christian, both or neither.

What I was trying to say is that there are scientist who preach Darwinism as a fact and not a theory. Creationism is a theory and has just as many scientific facts to support it. Things to me work together too well to be what I have been taught by my Biology teacher in College! The Biology book we used a year ago claims Lucy to be a fact. As for what I wrote as being "flawed" then blame the Biology teachers. That was what they taught me in school. I don't happen to find the Darwin theory to be that true. It has not been proven as a fact. And I did not say all scientist are not trying to seek the truth. Some do. There are scientist who truely try to get to the truth. But there are some who will lie because they want everyone to buy Darwinism as a fact. The person above claimed that Creationism is fiction. They have no proof of this. You are right about my generalizing on the scientist. But I still hold that Darwinism is a theory and only this to this day. I get equally tired of hearing it being preached as a fact. I do not appreciate the insinuation from the above writer that I am not inteligent because I do not agree with the Darwin theory. If they wish to only believe in the Darwin theory that is their perogitive. Best wishes to you, I am not trying to be agressive on this matter, but it also needs to be said that it is unfair to call me dumb because I will not see a theory as a fact. Also what you said about people using the bible to do terrible things, these are not Christians. Those are what we call hypocrites.

Didn't want to imply you are dumb, just pointing out what you posted is a generalisation based on ignorance (NOT stupidity - there's a difference)
Whether someone is Christian because they call themselves one or not it is another argument; what constitutes a Christian lifestyle gets us into even messier arguements! But yes, did want to point out that saying you can't trust science because some people have lied about scientific evidence is a daft as me saying I can't trust people who tell me they are Christians because some people have lied to me about their faith, or used their faith to justify terrible things.

I don't actually think you can have an argument of science vs faith with any kind of hope for resolution. It's not that they are mutually exclusive, it's that they are two different things.

You can't prove the existance of God. You also can't disprove the existance of God. You believe, or you don't believe. If you believe in God then seeing evolution as being driven by an omnipotent God makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't prove that evolution can't happen without God driving it. Your strength of fatih may inspire me, it may give me a desire to find God for myself, but it cannot make me believe (even if I want to), and it cannot prove God exists. My scientific arguments and rationalisations of everything someone can say about religeous experiences, about the history of the Bible, evolution/creationism, etc, will not change your beliefs or take away from you what your faith gives to you. Because the bottom line is, they are two completely different things.

Trying to have a discussion of science and faith is like trying to have a game where one side is playing basketball and the other is playing field hockey!

[bluejeangirl76]

Trying have a discussion of science and faith is like trying to have a game where one side is playing basketball and the other is playing field hockey!

I love it. I might nab that for a sig.

[Arianddu]

Trying have a discussion of science and faith is like trying to have a game where one side is playing basketball and the other is playing field hockey!

I love it. I might nab that for a sig.

Be my guest! (I was thinking something similar the moment I wrote it, but I'm not finished with the Cheese yet ) Just remember to add the missing 'to' after trying

[iLex]

Humans are much more than animals. We have a soul and can judge right from wrong, something no other animal can do. Regardless of whether one believes in evolution or not has nothing to do with it.

We have a soul? where's the prove of that? ...and a ape with 98,6% of our genes hasn't, strange isn't it. At which point in evolution did that soul enter our body (somewhere between the 98.6% and 100%?) and why?
There is no good from wrong, try to understand that. Many historical heroes would be called mass murderers nowadays. Think of all the mass murdering Christianity was responsible for throughout history and also think about middle east suicide bombers more recently. What we call good or wrong depends of the time and place we live in. It is connected to morality, a complex whole of codes societies live by. Morality has NOTHING to do with religion, religious societies have just the same amount of murders, rapes, divorce, child abuse, etc than atheist ones.
And of course evolution has to do with religion, there is a scientific explanation why things are the way the are. Evolution is not just a theory, it's happening all around us, right now. Prove is wherever you want to grab it. What's the prove of religion billions of people live by... zero, nada, nothing.

[texafana]

Obviously there is a creator, otherwise we would not be here. Religion is a very personal matter and you don't need to go to a weekly social gathering to prove anything to anyone or anything. The creator I believe in gave us life, what we do with that life is 100% our own doing. If I decide to kill someone or help someone walk across the road, it's my own doing, no one elses.

I also believe the human brain is a ticking bomb. If one little tiny spec of "something" goes wrong or right in your brain, you can either have a serial killer or the next Einstien.

[iLex]

Problem with Darwinian theory is it is flawed. Everything works together too well to be accidental.

Wrong, exactly my point in my previous post, people don't understand the process of evolution and therefor tend to believe fiction over science.

Also, scientist claim that matter cannot come from nothing. That is the number one rule

Wrong again, they know how amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. Could have happened in several ways.

, but their big bang theory claims matter comes from nothing?

You can go study quantum physics, it's far more interesting than reading the bible and you might find the answer there.
The same question could be asked to religious people... where does god come from? And what did he do before he created us? ...practicing creating dinosaurs?

Sorry, I am not a decendent of an ape. I will not ever claim such. Scientist can be wrong.

Sorry if it hurts you ego. Also, that statement wrong as well. We had a common ancestor, we did not descend from one of the current species.

They used to think the world was flat. The old testement refers to the world as round! There is as much to prove creationism as darwinian theories, the only difference is scientist don't want to tell you this.

Prove for creationism? Where? Please reveal, billions of religious people would be grateful to you.

It has as much to support it as Darwinism. Some have gone so far as to fake bones to try and prove darwinism. What transitional bones have been found that show one creature of one species changing to another? None. Lucy was found to be a hoax. There was a science documentary on the history channel I watched that showed that they kept that one a secret for 20 years before it was exposed. Books still claim it to be a fact when it was disproved. How can I trust when scientist are willing to cover up and lie to support a theory as a fact? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Whatever cover up theories you believe in, the process of evolution is not in doubt anymore.

[iLex]

Obviously there is a creator, otherwise we would not be here.

Yep, and that creator is called "4,5 billion years of evolution".

[conversationpc]

We have a soul? where's the prove of that? ...and a ape with 98,6% of our genes hasn't, strange isn't it. At which point in evolution did that soul enter our body (somewhere between the 98.6% and 100%?) and why?
There is no good from wrong, try to understand that. Many historical heroes would be called mass murderers nowadays. Think of all the mass murdering Christianity was responsible for throughout history and also think about middle east suicide bombers more recently. What we call good or wrong depends of the time and place we live in. It is connected to morality, a complex whole of codes societies live by. Morality has NOTHING to do with religion, religious societies have just the same amount of murders, rapes, divorce, child abuse, etc than atheist ones.
And of course evolution has to do with religion, there is a scientific explanation why thins are the way the are. Evolution is not just a theory, it's happening all around us, right now. Prove is wherever you want to grab it. What's the prove of religion billions of people live by... zero, nada, nothing.

How does the theory of evolution account for the existence of matter in the first place? How did it come into being?