Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

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What do you believe?

I completely believe in God.
56
64%
I'm Agnostic. Not sure whether there is a God or not.
13
15%
I'm a running scared Agnostic. I'll believe in God when I get sick and am on my death bed.
2
2%
Atheist. I do not believe in God.
12
14%
I believe in another higher power.
5
6%
 
Total votes : 88

Postby Michigan Girl » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:52 am

Arianddu wrote:
Michigan Girl wrote:
I remember when they were teaching the theory of evolution in the public school system. I waited for years for the apes at the Detroit Zoo to evolve, but I think they died before they became human :shock: Funny how I needed to see it to believe it, but my belief in The Holy Trinity, just was!! :wink:


Hey, if it worked like that, I'd be a lot more comfortable with wishing my tone-deaf friend would evolve into Steve Perry! :roll: :lol: :wink:


My point, at seven years of age it was very confusing!!! :roll: :wink:
People are going to believe what they believe no matter what is jammed down their throats!! :wink:
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:23 am

You know maybe we should break this discussion into 2. One about RELIGION, and the other about FAITH.

Or maybe we can just see who here knows the difference?
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:53 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:You know maybe we should break this discussion into 2. One about RELIGION, and the other about FAITH.

Or maybe we can just see who here knows the difference?


Wisdom is the application of knowledge, Religion is the application of faith......not so hard, actually....

Stu, I'm sure you thought you had us misanthropes stumped.... :wink:
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:03 am

bluejeangirl76 wrote:Goooood lord, there's no better way to get people fighting down and dirty, on the ground, no holds barred, than with a religion topic. :lol:



See? I was right. ^^ ----> Image

:lol:
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:16 am

StocktontoMalone wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:You know maybe we should break this discussion into 2. One about RELIGION, and the other about FAITH.

Or maybe we can just see who here knows the difference?


Wisdom is the application of knowledge, Religion is the application of faith......not so hard, actually....

Stu, I'm sure you thought you had us misanthropes stumped.... :wink:


Actually...

Faith is belief in something that cannot be proven by experimentation. Faith is the application of belief.

Religion is the framework by which belief is guided.

I am a Christian by definition. I have a belief in God and his son Jesus Christ. My faith is that salvation and eternal life is only available through Jesus. I cannot prove it in any way.

The framework of Chritianity is formed out of the religious tennents espoused in the Bible. Religion is a man made construct used to provide an understanding of belief and to try and ensure that people who adhere to a set of beliefs all have the same foundation to build thier faith on.

Religion can be used to warp faith. Just look at the Islamofacists, the Branch Davidians, and any other freaky sect out there where the basic belief has been twisted and changed from the original intent.
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Postby Just Mindy » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:29 am

bluejeangirl76 wrote:
bluejeangirl76 wrote:Goooood lord, there's no better way to get people fighting down and dirty, on the ground, no holds barred, than with a religion topic. :lol:



See? I was right. ^^ ----> Image

:lol:

Right you are but it's been highly entertaining, no? :lol:
Things do not change, we change. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Postby iLex » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:17 am

Greg wrote:I understand how evolution works, thanks. I've studied it many times over from elementary school on up through college. So, I think I have pretty firm idea of it's concepts thank you very much. And I am very well educated, I definitely assure you of that. In fact, I'm educated enough to have an open mind and consider every theory of creation, scientific or not, before I disregard and assume one as irrational just because it doesn't coincide with what I believe.

Greg, in your case I believe you are well educated, etc. Your english is definitely better than mine to begin with :wink:
I been taught evolution at school as well but not thoroughly enough to truly understand it's potential.
The problem I have with religion is that it's not as innocent as it seems, it has an influence on all important matters of life.
Choices are often made in relation to what people believe in and so it has it's influence on politics and every aspect of society...
birth control (fighting AIDS), abortion, euthanasia, even animal well-being etc.
Without religion the WTC would still be there, Jews & Palestinians wouldn't be killing each other over some piece of wasteland they call holy land, etc.
That something so imperceptible as religion determines the look of our planet is really really sad.
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Postby Sarah » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:35 am

The thing that's very interesting to me about discussions like this is that Christianity and Judaism have not been around forever... just think, we might be arguing about whether or not Apollo drives the sun across the sky if things had been different in the Roman Empire.

Basically it's all made up to give people a sense of purpose. Which is fine, I guess. I think that some people eschew science because they are afraid of what it might discover (forgot who said it in this thread, but someone said "I am NOT descended from apes"). Interesting, to me.
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:45 am

I don't see anyone complaining about being descended from a rib....... :lol:
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Postby Rick » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:02 am

If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?
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Postby stevew2 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:12 am

Rick wrote:If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?
There a couple dudes up the street from me that I think maynot evolved completely{if ya know what i mean}
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Postby iLex » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:17 am

Rick wrote:If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?

We had a common ancestor, we did not descend from one of the current species.

This what Arianddu replied to Greg about this subject...

5. "If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans?"
Why should they? The whole theory of evolution is based on radical differentiation, diversity and niche specialisation. Evolution would be a lot less plausible if all apes DID evolve into humans. Might as well ask 'why didn't all apes evolve into orang utans?' or 'why did God bother to make so many different kinds of animal when humans only need maybe 20 different sorts?'
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Postby Rick » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:07 am

iLex wrote:
Rick wrote:If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?

We had a common ancestor, we did not descend from one of the current species.

This what Arianddu replied to Greg about this subject...

5. "If we came from apes, why didn't all of the apes evolve into humans?"
Why should they? The whole theory of evolution is based on radical differentiation, diversity and niche specialisation. Evolution would be a lot less plausible if all apes DID evolve into humans. Might as well ask 'why didn't all apes evolve into orang utans?' or 'why did God bother to make so many different kinds of animal when humans only need maybe 20 different sorts?'


I only need about 4, Cows, Pigs, Chickens and Fish. :lol:
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Postby iLex » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:08 am

Rick wrote:If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?

Also ..we can see evolution happening on bacterial or viral level before our eyes, simply because on that level one day can count many generations.
Even little changes to more complex species like ourselves may take thousands of years. That's why evolution is so hard understand, it's been going on for 4,5 billion years and we can picture a time span that big. Recently I saw a Richard Dawkins movie about this. He streched his arm, his armpit is where life started and the tip of his nail is where we are now. With one strike of the nail file he wiped away all modern history ...including the Egyptian culture (4500 years ago).
Damn, I can't find this vid.
Also a must see...
The Root of All Evil - The Virus of Faith


Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FpdYCLWFs&fmt=18
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHSpE-2 ... ted&fmt=18
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnK3Qq2M ... ted&fmt=18
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T703JeL--0&fmt=18
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw0eC6oD ... ted&fmt=18
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Postby Rick » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:10 am

iLex wrote:
Rick wrote:If people are descended from apes, why are there still apes? Some didn't evolve?

Also ..we can see evolution happening on bacterial or viral level before our eyes, simply because on that level one day can count many generations.
Even little changes to more complex species like ourselves may take thousands of years. That's why evolution is so hard understand, it's been going on for 4,5 billion years and we can picture a time span that big. Recently I saw a Richard Dawkins movie about this. He streched his arm, his armpit is where life started and the tip of his nail is where we are now. With one strike of the nail file he wiped away all modern history ...including the Egyptian culture (4500 years ago).
Damn, I can't find this vid.
Also a must see...
The Root of All Evil - The Virus of Faith


Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FpdYCLWFs&fmt=18
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHSpE-2 ... ted&fmt=18
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnK3Qq2M ... ted&fmt=18
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T703JeL--0&fmt=18
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw0eC6oD ... ted&fmt=18


Thanks Alex. I'll get into these after football is over. :D
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Postby Wildfire » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:11 am

Anyone can be religious, as in the way you put on your socks..right one, then left, for example. A religion is a set of tenets and practices, rituals, or that of personal convictions.

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things unseen.

RossValoryRocks wrote:You know maybe we should break this discussion into 2. One about RELIGION, and the other about FAITH.

Or maybe we can just see who here knows the difference?
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Postby Greg » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:36 am

iLex wrote:Greg, in your case I believe you are well educated, etc. Your english is definitely better than mine to begin with :wink:
I been taught evolution at school as well but not thoroughly enough to truly understand it's potential.
The problem I have with religion is that it's not as innocent as it seems, it has an influence on all important matters of life.
Choices are often made in relation to what people believe in and so it has it's influence on politics and every aspect of society...
birth control (fighting AIDS), abortion, euthanasia, even animal well-being etc.
Without religion the WTC would still be there, Jews & Palestinians wouldn't be killing each other over some piece of wasteland they call holy land, etc.
That something so imperceptible as religion determines the look of our planet is really really sad.


True, there have been plenty of wars started in the name of religion. Look at what has been going on in the middle east. I would just be very careful not to lump everybody's religion into one category. Also, I live by the mindset (and it's often found to be quite factual) that you take something away, something else is going to take it's place. Meaning, it's quite easy to think that if there was no religion in the world, there would be no wars. While that sounds like a great idea, it probably would not turn out to be true! By nature, man always wants more than what he/she has. There would still be power struggles for territory and wars would still break out amongst people in the world. While we can focus on all the negativity surrounding religion, there is also a lot of good that faith based programs have brought to the homeless, the hungry, the shut in, the alcoholic, the drug abuser, and other life counseling that people turn to when they need it. And yes, I realize there are plenty of secular counseling programs out there, but there are plenty within the religious society who try to help people for the betterment of society.

While I realize I am not going to change the minds of some of you guys on here, and most I'll just agree to disagree with. I will close with just saying that I am not ashamed of my beliefs. I'm not ashamed to believe in Jesus Christ nor to follow His teachings. It's what I base my life on, and it's what gives me peace. I, like most of you, have searched other avenues in life that I thought would bring me peace. They didn't. So, it's my choice in life. I respect those who have chosen other roads, whether if I agree with them or not. I just ask for the same respect. For those of you who only follow science, I'm always looking at science to see if they can prove their theories beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not scared, nervous, nor apprehensive in the least. If scientists can prove the beginnings of creation and man beyond theory, then great! I'm all for furthering scientific knowledge. But, in my 33 years on this earth, I have yet to see proof. I've witnessed several well educated theories, and a lot of great ideas, and several occasions where those ideas and theories have been passed around as fact. But, the truth is, the beginning of time and man has not been proven. Until I can see proof with my own eyes, then I'll continue to hold true to what is considered faith (or blind faith to others.) If it gives me meaning in life and allows me to appreciate life, no harm done. I'll continue to hold true to those beliefs so as long as those beliefs don't infringe on other people's rights, as long as I'm given the same respect.
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Postby Jana » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:46 am

Well said, Greg.





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Postby RossValoryRocks » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:48 am

I submit than when a religion is hijacked by people who have their own agrandisement as the ultimate goal is when problems arise and those people who do so are not true adherents to their faith.
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Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:52 am

Rick wrote:I argued today that if you're not sure whether you believe or not, why is it that when you go to church, you feel so much better after having gone?


It's simply because religious tradition shames people for not going to church.

All religion is based on fear and guilt.

I am an agnostic. All I see in the Bible and other books like it are the writings of men who say they are speaking for God. There is no way to prove any of it. If there is a God, he's either abusive or incompetent. Otherwise he/she would not let earthquakes, hurricanes, starvation, rape, and other calamities happen to people.

Why base your beliefs on the religious traditions of men? Have you ever proved any of them to be true for yourself? How can people say, "Well, I just KNOW there is a god. I feel him all around me." That is no evidence at all that there is a god. Saying that you know the Bible is true doesn't mean anything either. What do you do about the verses in Deutoronomy where God commands his followers to kill gay people, non-virgin brides, and adulterers? Are you ready to obey those commands?

Don't get me wrong, I would like to believe there is a god. But I don't just believe things that people tell me without some sort of proof. Just because religious books like the Bible and the Qu'ran have been around for thousands of years is not proof. They both describe a murderous, bigoted god who bullies people to get his way. If there is a god, I don't think he/she would be at all like that. I think he/she would be doing things like giving Steve Perry a new set of vocal chords so he could sing for Journey instead of turning people into hateful religious bigots who fly airplanes into buildings in the name of god.

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Postby conversationpc » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:02 am

Voyager wrote:It's simply because religious tradition shames people for not going to church.


No, SOME religious traditions shame people for not going to church.

All religion is based on fear and guilt.


No, not all religion is based on fear and guilt. That isn't the way Jesus worked. He was compassionate towards people. He didn't try scaring people into religion.

There is no way to prove any of it.


There is if you are willing to allow yourself to see it. If you keep telling yourself these kinds of things, your mind will never be open to see it even if it's right in front of your eyes. That's why Jesus said "Having eyes to see, they see not" and "Having ears to hear, they hear not".

If there is a God, he's either abusive or incompetent. Otherwise he/she would not let earthquakes, hurricanes, starvation, rape, and other calamities happen to people.


I'll never claim to completely understand why bad things happen to good people. However, would you rather that God just cleaned up everything for us and made us into obedient little automatons? The Bible says that it rains on the just AND on the unjust. Good AND bad things happen to good and bad people.

That being said, I would highly recommend reading the novel "The Shack". It deals with why bad things happen and why there is suffering. It's as good a book as I've ever read on the subject, even though it's a novel.

Why base your beliefs on the religious traditions of men? Have you ever proved any of them to be true for yourself? How can people say, "Well, I just KNOW there is a god. I feel him all around me." That is no evidence at all that there is a god.


I don't base my beliefs on the religious traditions of men. For me, it all starts and ends with Jesus. Is Jesus who the Bible claims he is? The big question everyone should answer is Jesus really God as he claimed to be and did he literally physically rise from the dead? If he didn't, Christianity is a farce. If he's not, as I believe, then he is the savior of the world as he claimed.

Saying that you know the Bible is true doesn't mean anything either. What do you do about the verses in Deutoronomy where God commands his followers to kill gay people, non-virgin brides, and adulterers? Are you ready to obey those commands?


Those were Old Testament laws and I don't claim to be an expert on them. However, part of why Jesus came was to FULFILL the law. The Old Testament sacrifices foreshadowed Jesus' blood sacrifice on the cross, so we are no longer under the law but under grace.

You pointed out non-virgin brides. Have you heard the New Testament story about the woman caught in adultery? The men brought her before Jesus and said that she should be stoned to death for her sin. He said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". They all dropped their stones one by one and left. Jesus changed many things about the law and ended up fulfilling it by dying on the cross and rising from the dead.
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:15 am

One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.

My favorite of all times.....

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Postby conversationpc » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 am

StocktontoMalone wrote:One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.


Who says he doesn't?
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:35 am

conversationpc wrote:
StocktontoMalone wrote:One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.


Who says he doesn't?


Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....
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Postby conversationpc » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:41 am

StocktontoMalone wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
StocktontoMalone wrote:One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.


Who says he doesn't?


Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....


Like it or not, that's the nature of faith. There's nothing "genius" about it, as if faith was made up just that people could have an excuse when there was nothing else to give.
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Postby artist4perry » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:14 am

iLex wrote:
conversationpc wrote:As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

There are several ways amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. We only just started to discover, and luckily we now live in a time and place we can share our discoveries without being cursed, burned or hanged by religious leaders.
Not knowing everything (yet) is no reason to believe that a magic man must have done it.
Thanks to the Large Hadron Collider in Geneve we're gonna know a lot more about the birth of our universe soon...
http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/lhc2008/index.html
...these are interesting times to live in :wink:

I think at times though, some scientist, and yes I say some! LOL! Treat evolution like it is a religion. It is not a perfect theory or it would be fact. As for creationism.......it is based on a theory as well, and yes just as many scientist have found evidences for creationism as darwinism. The list is great. They just can't teach it in school! :lol: :lol: I look at it this way, if I am wrong and you are right. I turn to a pile of dust, and I tried to live a life of love and kindness. If I am right and you are wrong, there is a great deal of happiness waiting for me on the other side! I'll take my chances with God! :wink: :D
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Postby conversationpc » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:22 am

iLex wrote:
conversationpc wrote:As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

There are several ways amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. We only just started to discover, and luckily we now live in a time and place we can share our discoveries without being cursed, burned or hanged by religious leaders.
Not knowing everything (yet) is no reason to believe that a magic man must have done it.
Thanks to the Large Hadron Collider in Geneve we're gonna know a lot more about the birth of our universe soon...
http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/lhc2008/index.html
...these are interesting times to live in :wink:


Where did the amino acids come from? Who/what created it? The point being, at some point, that matter had to start from somewhere out of nothing. It can't always have existed unless you want to imply God-like qualities onto matter. Believing that matter created itself out of nothing at some point in the distant past makes you no less of a "magic man" than you are claiming God is.
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Postby artist4perry » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:29 am

StocktontoMalone wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
StocktontoMalone wrote:One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.


Who says he doesn't?


Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:31 am

conversationpc wrote:
iLex wrote:
conversationpc wrote:As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

There are several ways amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. We only just started to discover, and luckily we now live in a time and place we can share our discoveries without being cursed, burned or hanged by religious leaders.
Not knowing everything (yet) is no reason to believe that a magic man must have done it.
Thanks to the Large Hadron Collider in Geneve we're gonna know a lot more about the birth of our universe soon...
http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/lhc2008/index.html
...these are interesting times to live in :wink:


Where did the amino acids come from? Who/what created it? The point being, at some point, that matter had to start from somewhere out of nothing. It can't always have existed unless you want to imply God-like qualities onto matter. Believing that matter created itself out of nothing at some point in the distant past makes you no less of a "magic man" than you are claiming God is.



Dave, you are regressing back to the times of polytheistic times.....explaning things otherwise unexplainable by attributing them to gods....

Oh my, there is drought....we must've angered the god of wheat....

OMG, the amazon is overflowing....damn that trixter - poseidon!

Jeesh, that big yellow thing in the sky moves back and forth ....hey, it's just Apollo and his seven immortal horses pullinh the sun across the sky....

Wow...look at these poly-peptides coming together to make amino-acids.....silly fool - its just GOD's tinkertoys.....

Everything that is unexplainable cannot be attributed to god.....perhaps we just don't know.....but man is too proud to say that he just don't know. So he invents a god to explain it all away....sad really.... :wink:
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Postby Michigan Girl » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:32 am

artist4perry wrote:
StocktontoMalone wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
StocktontoMalone wrote:One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.


Who says he doesn't?


Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.


S&M knows what faith is, I'm quite sure he has faith in SOMETHING...he's just trying to be difficult, he acts like he's from the Show me State!!!! :lol: :P :wink:
Last edited by Michigan Girl on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michigan Girl
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