Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[S2M]

One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.

Who says he doesn't?

Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.

S&M knows what faith is, I'm quite sure he has faith in SOMETHING...he's just trying to be difficult, he acts like he's from the Show me State!!!!

I have faith in S&M....

[Michigan Girl]

One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.

Who says he doesn't?

Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.

S&M knows what faith is, I'm quite sure he has faith in SOMETHING...he's just trying to be difficult, he acts like he's from the Show me State!!!!

I have faith in S&M....

Right now I'm having faith in the Cowboys....

[S2M]

One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.

Who says he doesn't?

Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.

S&M knows what faith is, I'm quite sure he has faith in SOMETHING...he's just trying to be difficult, he acts like he's from the Show me State!!!!

I have faith in S&M....

Right now I'm having faith in the Cowboys....

How about the Lyins....got faith in them?

[artist4perry]

As I asked above, how did matter come into existence? Who or what created it? Did it create itself?

There are several ways amino acids could have evolved to unicellular organisms. We only just started to discover, and luckily we now live in a time and place we can share our discoveries without being cursed, burned or hanged by religious leaders.
Not knowing everything (yet) is no reason to believe that a magic man must have done it.
Thanks to the Large Hadron Collider in Geneve we're gonna know a lot more about the birth of our universe soon...
http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/lhc2008/index.html
...these are interesting times to live in

Where did the amino acids come from? Who/what created it? The point being, at some point, that matter had to start from somewhere out of nothing. It can't always have existed unless you want to imply God-like qualities onto matter. Believing that matter created itself out of nothing at some point in the distant past makes you no less of a "magic man" than you are claiming God is.

Dave, you are regressing back to the times of polytheistic times.....explaning things otherwise unexplainable by attributing them to gods....

Oh my, there is drought....we must've angered the god of wheat....

OMG, the amazon is overflowing....damn that trixter - poseidon!

Jeesh, that big yellow thing in the sky moves back and forth ....hey, it's just Apollo and his seven immortal horses pullinh the sun across the sky....

Wow...look at these poly-peptides coming together to make amino-acids.....silly fool - its just GOD's tinkertoys.....

Everything that is unexplainable cannot be attributed to god.....perhaps we just don't know.....but man is too proud to say that he just don't know. So he invents a god to explain it all away....sad really....

Sad for who? I am quite happy! And when I am down, I am never alone! Believe, don't believe, it is up to each person individually. My friend as I said, if I am wrong, I lived a good life, I return to a pile of dust. If I am right, I live happily for eternity. Just a choice of perspective! What happens when you die? Are you dead all over like rover? That is very sad! Nothing to hope for, nothing to believe in. Again though, your choice.

[Michigan Girl]

One defense I've heard the most from religious types is this gem...'God gave us freewill'. As a response to why he doesn't interact on an everyday basis....an absentee landlord.

Who says he doesn't?

Because it is not open to falsification....that's the genius of religion.....you can't disprove anything.....well, you can't prove anything either, but you just can't disprove shit.....

That is why we call it faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Unless you have it, I can't explain it. And yes we have freewill. If he interacted there would be no need for faith, and it would not be free will beleif would it? You would always be fearing the "landlord" will pop in! LOL! Either you believe, or you don't. He gives us a choice. I choose yes.
Many choose no. I am not trying to make you feel either way, I was just asked if I believe.

S&M knows what faith is, I'm quite sure he has faith in SOMETHING...he's just trying to be difficult, he acts like he's from the Show me State!!!!

I have faith in S&M....

Right now I'm having faith in the Cowboys....

How about the Lyins....got faith in them?

I really want to cry.....but I REFUSE to let go~THAT's FAITH!!! :wink:

[scarygirl]

I believe because though he has saved me from some things, including myself, he has also allowed bad things to happen. Things so indescribable, you wonder why? What did I do to deserve this? But like Conversation PC says, bad things happen to those both good and bad. There is no rhyme or reason for it. Not everything that happens to us is by our own hand or deserved, but you pick yourself up anyway, and go on in the knowledge that even in the bad he was there.

[Enigma869]

How about the Lyins....got faith in them?

Not even the Lions have faith in the Lions!


John from Boston

[Sarah]

yes just as many scientist have found evidences for creationism as darwinism. The list is great.

People keep saying this but we haven't actually heard any of this evidence yet. Please post sources.

[Shadowsong]

This is a very hard one for me.

On one hand I have had years of science & have gotten seriously disillusioned with the scientic process that tries to explain nature.
When you take quantum physics you either believe with blind faith or come away shaking your head. I soon found science has no real answers only ways that seem to explain a phenomena. It's sort of a master game.

Then again do I believe word for word the bible I'd say I can't as I have had no experience of it.
I think did Noah (coincidently the flood was around this time)... really find 2 of each animal???
2 of everything?
Is this possible?
Is it probable?
How did they come from all over the world to be saved in the ark???

I don;t know

What I do think I know is:
we are all in various stages of spiritual enlightenment.
I do believe this is not the end & we are more than this body would imply.
I believe we all know but we are not all aware???

So was there an Adam & Eve?
If so...
It would seem we gained free will when Eve took the fruit from the forbidden tree of knowlege, ate of it & offered it to Adam.

How deep her sorrow must be for the man she was made for. No greater love she should have had to never want to hurt him yet she made a mistake or was it rather as it was supposed to be as at that very moment time had begun.

I think there are many things we just can't conceive
Science can only give us some expanations to that seem to apply to the world as we see it.

I believe that this existance is so miniscule compared to the true identity of the universe.

I beleive we are all here for a reason.

I think you will know when you know & that;s just the way it is.
We try the best we can to understand this Beautiful Mess
we know as "life"



Forever is a plane sort of the past, present & future at the same time without the benefit of time...

Well that's enough thinking for tonight

Oh & I still believe love is the fundemental unmeasureable elemental force of all things!

Can two people 9n love share the same space without space
Now I can't sleep
How can I sleep
so I reach with my mind
feeling soothing thoughts
take deep breaths
relax
let my mind go free
to just be...

[conversationpc]

Dave, you are regressing back to the times of polytheistic times.....explaning things otherwise unexplainable by attributing them to gods....

Oh my, there is drought....we must've angered the god of wheat....

OMG, the amazon is overflowing....damn that trixter - poseidon!

Jeesh, that big yellow thing in the sky moves back and forth ....hey, it's just Apollo and his seven immortal horses pullinh the sun across the sky....

Wow...look at these poly-peptides coming together to make amino-acids.....silly fool - its just GOD's tinkertoys.....

Everything that is unexplainable cannot be attributed to god.....perhaps we just don't know.....but man is too proud to say that he just don't know. So he invents a god to explain it all away....sad really....

The question still remains...Where did the first matter come from? Atheists either have to say that it's always existed OR they have to admit there's some kind of supernatural force that created it. Obviously, most of them are not going to admit the latter. However, if they don't admit to the latter then that begs the question of how matter came into existence in the first place, out of nothing.

[Arianddu]

Dave, you are regressing back to the times of polytheistic times.....explaning things otherwise unexplainable by attributing them to gods....

Oh my, there is drought....we must've angered the god of wheat....

OMG, the amazon is overflowing....damn that trixter - poseidon!

Jeesh, that big yellow thing in the sky moves back and forth ....hey, it's just Apollo and his seven immortal horses pullinh the sun across the sky....

Wow...look at these poly-peptides coming together to make amino-acids.....silly fool - its just GOD's tinkertoys.....

Everything that is unexplainable cannot be attributed to god.....perhaps we just don't know.....but man is too proud to say that he just don't know. So he invents a god to explain it all away....sad really....

The question still remains...Where did the first matter come from? Atheists either have to say that it's always existed OR they have to admit there's some kind of supernatural force that created it. Obviously, most of them are not going to admit the latter. However, if they don't admit to the latter then that begs the question of how matter came into existence in the first place, out of nothing.

Actually, this atheist is content to say "I don't know."

[conversationpc]

The question still remains...Where did the first matter come from? Atheists either have to say that it's always existed OR they have to admit there's some kind of supernatural force that created it. Obviously, most of them are not going to admit the latter. However, if they don't admit to the latter then that begs the question of how matter came into existence in the first place, out of nothing.

Actually, this atheist is content to say "I don't know."

OK...That's fair but doesn't it then beg the question that there's a possibility in your mind that there could be a God who created matter?

[Arianddu]

The question still remains...Where did the first matter come from? Atheists either have to say that it's always existed OR they have to admit there's some kind of supernatural force that created it. Obviously, most of them are not going to admit the latter. However, if they don't admit to the latter then that begs the question of how matter came into existence in the first place, out of nothing.

Actually, this atheist is content to say "I don't know."

OK...That's fair but doesn't it then beg the question that there's a possibility in your mind that there could be a God who created matter?

Nope. I don't believe in God, pure and simple. I can't prove there is a God, I can't prove there isn't. Either way, it doesn't affect me - I live my life as best I can, and whether there is or isn't a God is irrelevent to me. I respect that isn't the case for other people, but as far as I am concerned, the potential existance of God is an interesting philosophical debate with little impact on my reality.

[conversationpc]

OK...That's fair but doesn't it then beg the question that there's a possibility in your mind that there could be a God who created matter?

Nope. I don't believe in God, pure and simple. I can't prove there is a God, I can't prove there isn't. Either way, it doesn't affect me - I live my life as best I can, and whether there is or isn't a God is irrelevent to me. I respect that isn't the case for other people, but as far as I am concerned, the potential existance of God is an interesting philosophical debate with little impact on my reality.

Interesting statement because the implications if there actually is a God should be huge but at least you don't appear to be a militant atheist, the kind who seem to want to attack Christianity and Christians and religion in general, for that matter, at every opportunity. I can respect that.

[artist4perry]

yes just as many scientist have found evidences for creationism as darwinism. The list is great.

People keep saying this but we haven't actually heard any of this evidence yet. Please post sources.

Feel free to google it! I found quite a few! Some scientists are just as curious about Creationism! LOL!

Look, I see evidences every day as an artist I am curious about life and things in nature. I have also studied science in school, and the complexity and symbiotic way that life works together in harmony, tells me there is someone, or something orchestrating it all. It is evident to me in something so small as a mollecule. It is evident to me in the very air I breathe. I gather you are a "show me" person as well! LOL! There have been records of a great flood found all over the world.

I wish I had the time to explain it all to you, but I will have to keep this brief today. Some things science cannot explain. Some things are a mystery, and just as you cannot scientificly prove beyond a doubt that Darwinism is correct, the same holds for creationism. Yes, there are scientists that are curious about creationism as well. This is one site I found, there are others.
http://www.creationfaq.net/

[iLex]

True, there have been plenty of wars started in the name of religion. Look at what has been going on in the middle east. I would just be very careful not to lump everybody's religion into one category. Also, I live by the mindset (and it's often found to be quite factual) that you take something away, something else is going to take it's place. Meaning, it's quite easy to think that if there was no religion in the world, there would be no wars. While that sounds like a great idea, it probably would not turn out to be true! By nature, man always wants more than what he/she has. There would still be power struggles for territory and wars would still break out amongst people in the world. While we can focus on all the negativity surrounding religion

All true, but if religion didn't cause the misery, it never helped to avoid it either.

, there is also a lot of good that faith based programs have brought to the homeless, the hungry, the shut in, the alcoholic, the drug abuser, and other life counseling that people turn to when they need it. And yes, I realize there are plenty of secular counseling programs out there, but there are plenty within the religious society who try to help people for the betterment of society.

Probably but you will find these amongst atheist societies just the same.
I'm an atheist and I pay every month for my Foster Child (Plan International) in Kenia, I'm a an animal rights activist and I support several projects that benefits nature (or what's left of it) and I definitely don't discriminate gay people. Don't need no church to tell me what to do, as said before ...regilion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

While I realize I am not going to change the minds of some of you guys on here, and most I'll just agree to disagree with. I will close with just saying that I am not ashamed of my beliefs. I'm not ashamed to believe in Jesus Christ nor to follow His teachings. It's what I base my life on, and it's what gives me peace. I, like most of you, have searched other avenues in life that I thought would bring me peace. They didn't. So, it's my choice in life. I respect those who have chosen other roads, whether if I agree with them or not. I just ask for the same respect.

I really don't feel you should feel ashamed of anything. As long as you are happy and use your common sense whenever important choices need to be made, all is good.

For those of you who only follow science, I'm always looking at science to see if they can prove their theories beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not scared, nervous, nor apprehensive in the least. If scientists can prove the beginnings of creation and man beyond theory, then great! I'm all for furthering scientific knowledge. But, in my 33 years on this earth, I have yet to see proof. I've witnessed several well educated theories, and a lot of great ideas, and several occasions where those ideas and theories have been passed around as fact. But, the truth is, the beginning of time and man has not been proven. Until I can see proof with my own eyes, then I'll continue to hold true to what is considered faith (or blind faith to others.) If it gives me meaning in life and allows me to appreciate life, no harm done. I'll continue to hold true to those beliefs so as long as those beliefs don't infringe on other people's rights, as long as I'm given the same respect.

I agree on most of this. Beginning of mankind started when amino acids started to interact with each other forming unicellular organism in a later stage. Magic man done it? ...actually NO! There are several ways it could have happened without any extra mysterious force required. Search Google.
Beginning of time started with the big bang and, thanks to the CERN project, we are about to find out more of this soon...
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/

Also interesting...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/96399
...maybe god put it there to test your faith

[conversationpc]

...as said before ...regilion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

Unbelievably false. It has a very great positive influence on morality.

I really don't feel you should feel ashamed of anything. As long as you are happy and use your common sense whenever important choices need to be made, all is good.

If people never feel ashamed, then they never feel guilt. Guilt is a motivating factor to do what's right in the future. It's a natural response and necessary. Of course, taken to its extreme is not a good thing, either.

I agree on most of this. Beginning of mankind started when amino acids started to interact with each other forming unicellular organism in a later stage. Magic man done it? ...actually NO! There are several ways it could have happened without any extra mysterious force required.

My question still stands...How did the first matter appear in the first place?

[bluejeangirl76]

as said before ...religion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

No, it doesn't. Condoning discrimination and hypocrisy, allowing church leaders to break the law and face little or no repurcussions and teaching inequality is certainly not positive.

[conversationpc]

as said before ...religion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

No, it doesn't. Condoning discrimination and hypocrisy, allowing church leaders to break the law and face little or no repurcussions and teaching inequality is certainly not positive.

Sure it does...MOST churches boot their pastors who break the law but you never hear about it in the press. The only time you hear about them are when the pastors actually break the law and when they are not punished by their churches.

[iLex]

...as said before ...regilion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

Unbelievably false. It has a very great positive influence on morality.

Christian & muslim societies have the same kind and the same amount of crime than atheistic or agnostic societies.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/pub ... elig05.pdf
“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”
http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm

I really don't feel you should feel ashamed of anything. As long as you are happy and use your common sense whenever important choices need to be made, all is good.

If people never feel ashamed, then they never feel guilt. Guilt is a motivating factor to do what's right in the future. It's a natural response and necessary. Of course, taken to its extreme is not a good thing, either.

Sorry, I might not have been clear on this, I meant feeling ashamed about him being a Christian. Ofcouse shame is a way we interact with our environment and therefore useful.

I agree on most of this. Beginning of mankind started when amino acids started to interact with each other forming unicellular organism in a later stage. Magic man done it? ...actually NO! There are several ways it could have happened without any extra mysterious force required.

My question still stands...How did the first matter appear in the first place?

Yet the answer is given several times...
What we know so far is it all started with the big bang. Thanks to the CERN project we will soon know more about this.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/
If you are really interested in this subject, studying quantum physics will get you as close to the answer as possible.
Not knowing everything is OK, leave it open, sooner or later we'll find out.

[conversationpc]

What we know so far is it all started with the big bang. Thanks to the CERN project we will soon know more about this.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/
If you are really interested in this subject, studying quantum physics will get you as close to the answer as possible.
Not knowing everything is OK, leave it open, sooner or later we'll find out.

But in order for the big bang to occur, there had to be matter for the explosion to happen. The CERN project might be a cool experiement but it's not going to answer the question of how the first matter appeared out of nothingness.

[bluejeangirl76]

as said before ...religion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

No, it doesn't. Condoning discrimination and hypocrisy, allowing church leaders to break the law and face little or no repurcussions and teaching inequality is certainly not positive.

Sure it does...MOST churches boot their pastors who break the law but you never hear about it in the press. The only time you hear about them are when the pastors actually break the law and when they are not punished by their churches.

Not speaking for all cases, but in many, they don't boot them. They send them off to a smaller parish in another city, usually a smaller city a couple hundred miles away. That's what they did to the pee-pee toucher they found in the parish I grew up in. They helped him hide. I've heard this isn't exactly uncommon, either, that's what I mean by condoning it.

[conversationpc]

Not speaking for all cases, but in many, they don't boot them. They send them off to a smaller parish in another city, usually a smaller city a couple hundred miles away. That's what they did to the pee-pee toucher they found in the parish I grew up in. They helped him hide. I've heard this isn't exactly uncommon, either, that's what I mean by condoning it.

That sounds like a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and I have huge problems with Catholicism to begin with, so I'm not going to argue that with you.

[Don]

...as said before ...regilion has no "positive" influence on morality whatsoever.

Unbelievably false. It has a very great positive influence on morality.

I really don't feel you should feel ashamed of anything. As long as you are happy and use your common sense whenever important choices need to be made, all is good.

If people never feel ashamed, then they never feel guilt. Guilt is a motivating factor to do what's right in the future. It's a natural response and necessary. Of course, taken to its extreme is not a good thing, either.

I agree on most of this. Beginning of mankind started when amino acids started to interact with each other forming unicellular organism in a later stage. Magic man done it? ...actually NO! There are several ways it could have happened without any extra mysterious force required.

My question still stands...How did the first matter appear in the first place?

I believe someone or something has to have created it. What I don't believe is that we have been talked to by that someone and he told 20 different people 20 different ways to interpret his word. I believe We use religion as hope that what ever caused creation actually cares about us. The dinosaurs appear to have been around for about 20 million years, We as developed humans, not even 1 million years. Were dinosaurs created for a special purpose just to confuse us and throw doubt on our believes? I can't believe that, just like I can't believe the earth is only 12 thousand years old. We keep reinterpreting the bible to make sense when it may have gaps or fallacies in it, but wouldn't an All knowing god have told us the correct story from the start? I think whatever has created the universe is beyond our imaginations and that all we can do is create a make believe stand in that conforms to what we think God should be. There probably was a real Jesus just like there was a real L.Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith. What makes the latter two's religions any different other than they came to be created latter than Christianity? I guess in the end, If you find solace in your faith, that's all you can really ask for.

[bluejeangirl76]

Not speaking for all cases, but in many, they don't boot them. They send them off to a smaller parish in another city, usually a smaller city a couple hundred miles away. That's what they did to the pee-pee toucher they found in the parish I grew up in. They helped him hide. I've heard this isn't exactly uncommon, either, that's what I mean by condoning it.

That sounds like a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and I have huge problems with Catholicism to begin with, so I'm not going to argue that with you.

I grew up Catholic and *I* have huge problems with Catholicism, so we're probably in agreement there anyway.

[conversationpc]

I believe someone or something has to have created it. What I don't believe is that we have been talked to by that someone and he told 20 different people 20 different ways to interpret his word.

I have no earthly idea what you mean here. Please explain.

There probably was a real Jesus just like there was a real L.Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith. What makes the latter two's religions any different other than they came to be created latter than Christianity?

The big difference is that Jesus claimed to be God and his followers claim that he literally, physically rose from the dead, something the other two didn't.

[iLex]

What we know so far is it all started with the big bang. Thanks to the CERN project we will soon know more about this.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/
If you are really interested in this subject, studying quantum physics will get you as close to the answer as possible.
Not knowing everything is OK, leave it open, sooner or later we'll find out.

But in order for the big bang to occur, there had to be matter for the explosion to happen. The CERN project might be a cool experiement but it's not going to answer the question of how the first matter appeared out of nothingness.

You should really talk to somebody who knows all about quantum physics. How matter can exist out of nothing is explained to me before but I'm too stupid to repeat this in a sensible way.
I should ask this for my birthday...

[conversationpc]

You should really talk to somebody who knows all about quantum physics. How matter can exist out of nothing is explained to me before but I'm too stupid to repeat this in a sensible way.

All I've been able to find is that preceding the big bang was some kind of energy. However, energy is still made up of some kind of matter. I've never seen anything that claims matter can be produced from absolutely nothing.

[Enigma869]

That sounds like a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and I have huge problems with Catholicism to begin with, so I'm not going to argue that with you.

I'm not going to fault religion for the priests or ministers diddling little boys and girls, because I'm not sure that's remotely fair. On another note, what difference does it make whether it's a Catholic (for the record, I'm not Catholic, nor was I raised Catholic) church or not? The last time I checked, Catholics are practitioners of Christianity!


John from Boston

[Michigan Girl]

That sounds like a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and I have huge problems with Catholicism to begin with, so I'm not going to argue that with you.

I'm not going to fault religion for the priests or ministers diddling little boys and girls, because I'm not sure that's remotely fair. On another note, what difference does it make whether it's a Catholic (for the record, I'm not Catholic, nor was I raised Catholic) church or not? The last time I checked, Catholics are practitioners of Christianity!


John from Boston

Thank you!!!!