Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[Michigan Girl]

Based on what the Bible teaches (which I believe to be the infallable word of God), yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

This is getting confusing. So you're saying that only those who follow Jesus' teachings have truth and "The life" (whatever the hell that means)? How shocking...a religious person from NC! I didn't come across too many of them when I lived in NC! You guys must have all been hiding while I was there

John from Boston

i sure am glad you don't force your views and ways on others, john. : )

He doesn't force his opinions on us!!!
He blows through here like a white tornado, states his opinion and doesn't
give a crap whether or not we agree.....I love it!!!!

[iceberg]

i sure am glad you don't force your views and ways on others, john. : )

What the hell does this sentence have to do with my reply? You must be another Jackass Talk refugee!


John from Boston

well mostly cause i've been in this forum for ~16 hours and just picking up on what i see people say and do. in another thread you were all happy cause you're from MA where you don't force your views and way of life on others. i was just having fun and kidding around with that statement. but you know, i've only read a few posts from you so i know *i'm* not qualified to know all about you yet. just a few words on the screen.

even less of me you know but sure - i'm all that and a bucket of chicken. but at least i'm extra crispy. : )

[Rhiannon]

How shocking...a religious person from NC! I didn't come across too many of them when I lived in NC! You guys must have all been hiding while I was there

Stop it before I smack you. You should be used to it by now.
Remember, not every Southerner is so easily swayed by literature compiled by crusty old Roman politicians in 325. Personally, I enjoyed the Apocrypha and Gnostic books way more. On a side note, I still find it amazing that many people don't even realize the origin of their Holy book. Or that it was compiled by Pagans.

pagans are people too!!! well, usually...

ever read the celestine prophecies?

No, I haven't. But I took a few classes in college on the Gnostic gospels and the Old Testament Apocrypha. I like to know all sides of the story. I think if you're going to have religion (and I'm not religious at ALL, believe in God yes, doctrine no) you're doing a great disservice to yourself if you take everything you've been told for truth and never attempt to learn and discover things for yourself. So I guess you can say my religion would be knowledge then?

I have a religious family (they're Southerners John!!) and I live with a fervent atheist, and I can argue points with both. And yes, Pagans are people too. I find a lot of their branches are not my style, but I can embrace their origins with being aware of the world around you and respecting nature.

My whole thing is, I'm not all-knowing. So who am I to say one thing exists, and one thing doesn't? That'd be foolish. I just live and let be and don't even bother holding my breath that others will. People have to understand that they don't have to believe in one thing and fight against the alternative, but just be cognizant enough to accept that everything could be true and nothing could be true.

/soapbox.

[Rhiannon]

Perhaps not, but every one that I met surely was!

That's all changing... with the exodus of the older generation and the onset of the kids my age (who are mostly jaded and cynical) it's not what it used to be! Be glad you didn't have to live there in the 80's... and even the 90's. It doesn't bother me what they do or believe (see above post)... but I remember the Jehovah's Witnesses coming by when I was 12 and asking them questions that they couldn't answer and ultimately they took their brochures and sped off on their bikes like bats out of hell.

They all told me I was going to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as my "Lord and Savior".

You did move back to Boston, didn't you?? Guess they were onto something.

[conversationpc]

Based on what the Bible teaches (which I believe to be the infallable word of God), yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

This is getting confusing. So you're saying that only those who follow Jesus' teachings have truth and "The life" (whatever the hell that means)?

Jesus taught that he was the only way of salvation, the only way to heaven, etc. If he really wasn't, then he was either a liar or nutjob. If he really was, which is what I believe, then he is the savior of the world.

[iceberg]

How shocking...a religious person from NC! I didn't come across too many of them when I lived in NC! You guys must have all been hiding while I was there

Stop it before I smack you. You should be used to it by now.
Remember, not every Southerner is so easily swayed by literature compiled by crusty old Roman politicians in 325. Personally, I enjoyed the Apocrypha and Gnostic books way more. On a side note, I still find it amazing that many people don't even realize the origin of their Holy book. Or that it was compiled by Pagans.

pagans are people too!!! well, usually...

ever read the celestine prophecies?

No, I haven't. But I took a few classes in college on the Gnostic gospels and the Old Testament Apocrypha. I like to know all sides of the story. I think if you're going to have religion (and I'm not religious at ALL, believe in God yes, doctrine no) you're doing a great disservice to yourself if you take everything you've been told for truth and never attempt to learn and discover things for yourself. So I guess you can say my religion would be knowledge then?

I have a religious family (they're Southerners John!!) and I live with a fervent atheist, and I can argue points with both. And yes, Pagans are people too. I find a lot of their branches are not my style, but I can embrace their origins with being aware of the world around you and respecting nature.

My whole thing is, I'm not all-knowing. So who am I to say one thing exists, and one thing doesn't? That'd be foolish. I just live and let be and don't even bother holding my breath that others will. People have to understand that they don't have to believe in one thing and fight against the alternative, but just be cognizant enough to accept that everything could be true and nothing could be true.

/soapbox.

well it's going to take a bit for people to get that i'm a constant smartass. well not constant, but you can usually tell when i'm serious. or trying to be. and definately when i fail misterably at it. : )

i was born and raised roman catholic. i was an alterboy in 2 states and got to read scriptures to the congregation in the 5th grade at bible summer camp at my grandparents.

but somewhere along the line i heard someone say "religion is a fault of birth" and that made me think and that's where i tend to get dangerous. : ) but it is usually. most people either are born into their religion or marry into it cause they were in love. it's how people are taught to believe, not simply taught to believe for it's own sake. almost all religions have very simular stories to tell of desctruction, salvation, and the like. in time i went through my own hatred on my own road to understanding of religion and God.

now i don't know if God is there but i do know thousands of years ago there was a god for everything that moved and each culture had their own. time simplified that and now we have just 1 and that's MUCH easier than thinking the wind god is mad and lives in oklahoma. but it's also why i feel that people *need* a faith in something and God is the most convenient. but whether we're closing in on salvation or still thousands of years from it we'll simply never know. will it take another major change as life goes on thousands of years into the future? so to say one religion is right is arrogance to me. they're all right.

and wrong.

but they're all something to believe in and to me that's the biggest purpose of religion. i do believe in something more and that mankind will evolve into it only if and when the common mindset is ready.

[Granny]

Based on what the Bible teaches (which I believe to be the infallable word of God), yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

This is getting confusing. So you're saying that only those who follow Jesus' teachings have truth and "The life" (whatever the hell that means)?

Jesus taught that he was the only way of salvation, the only way to heaven, etc. If he really wasn't, then he was either a liar or nutjob. If he really was, which is what I believe, then he is the savior of the world.

Does this mean I am going to hell? I only believe that Jesus was a teacher, not the Saviour...now What??????

[Enigma869]

Does this mean I am going to hell? I only believe that Jesus was a teacher, not the Saviour...now What??????

It's okay Granny...You're Jewish! Jewish women are too great to ever to to hell. I should know...I married one. You should have saw the look on the Jesus loving crowd in our old southern neighborhood when they found out a Jew had snuck into the neighborhood


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

i'm all that and a bucket of chicken. but at least i'm extra crispy. : )

Huh???? You're definitely a refugee from Jackass Talk! I think you need to change your ID from "Iceberg" to nutbag. Either that, or your coconut had a collision with an iceberg, and the iceberg won!


John from Boston

[iceberg]

i'm all that and a bucket of chicken. but at least i'm extra crispy. : )

Huh???? You're definitely a refugee from Jackass Talk! I think you need to change your ID from "Iceberg" to nutbag. Either that, or your coconut had a collision with an iceberg, and the iceberg won!

John from Boston

once again, i'm so glad you're the self-proclaimed version of tolerance of other ways of thought. : )

fyi - i have no idea what jackass talk is, so you're wrong there. as for nutbag, meet enough people someone will not like you. nothing i can do about that.

[conversationpc]

Based on what the Bible teaches (which I believe to be the infallable word of God), yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

This is getting confusing. So you're saying that only those who follow Jesus' teachings have truth and "The life" (whatever the hell that means)?

Jesus taught that he was the only way of salvation, the only way to heaven, etc. If he really wasn't, then he was either a liar or nutjob. If he really was, which is what I believe, then he is the savior of the world.

Does this mean I am going to hell? I only believe that Jesus was a teacher, not the Saviour...now What??????

Considering what Jesus said and taught about himself, being just a great teacher is not really an option because he called himself "the only way" and the Son of God (which the Jews instinctively knew was making himself equal with God). Anyway, I believe exactly what Jesus taught...That he is the only way. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[iLex]

Considering what Jesus said and taught about himself, being just a great teacher is not really an option because he called himself "the only way" and the Son of God (which the Jews instinctively knew was making himself equal with God). Anyway, I believe exactly what Jesus taught...That he is the only way. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Amazing, we dont have Christians like you over here anymore, really.
You quote something a man said 2000 years ago, handed over mouth to mouth for centuries, then written down and altered several times throughout history.
Interpreted "black" in one century and "white" in the other.
It's full of the kind of miracles David Blaine can only dream of and yet in modern times, modern intelligent people take it's content for granted and live by it?
Religion must be the weirdest phenomena of mankind.
Miracles don't exist, really. Not now and not 2000 years ago.

[iceberg]

Considering what Jesus said and taught about himself, being just a great teacher is not really an option because he called himself "the only way" and the Son of God (which the Jews instinctively knew was making himself equal with God). Anyway, I believe exactly what Jesus taught...That he is the only way. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Amazing, we dont have Christians like you over here anymore, really.
You quote something a man said 2000 years ago, handed over mouth to mouth for centuries, then written down and altered several times throughout history.
Interpreted "black" in one century and "white" in the other.
It's full of the kind of miracles David Blaine can only dream of and yet in modern times, modern intelligent people take it's content for granted and live by it?
Religion must be the weirdest phenomena of mankind.
Miracles don't exist, really. Not now and not 2000 years ago.

define miracle.

[conversationpc]

You quote something a man said 2000 years ago, handed over mouth to mouth for centuries, then written down and altered several times throughout history.

The Gospels were written within the lifetimes of the authors. Though there is some disagreement about this, most scholars agree that this is the case, so there was no major length of time between when Jesus spoke these words and when the authors penned them.

Interpreted "black" in one century and "white" in the other.

This idea is really whacked out. Between all the different New Testament interpretations, they are amazingly uniform as to how they were interpreted.

It's full of the kind of miracles David Blaine can only dream of and yet in modern times, modern intelligent people take it's content for granted and live by it?

Only fools think there is no God (see Psalm 14:1). Intelligent people, and those far more intelligent than you or I, believe in God and that miracles can and indeed do occur. Even Einstein, though not necessarily a Christian, believed in a higher power of some kind.

[YoungJRNY]

You quote something a man said 2000 years ago, handed over mouth to mouth for centuries, then written down and altered several times throughout history.

The Gospels were written within the lifetimes of the authors. Though there is some disagreement about this, most scholars agree that this is the case, so there was no major length of time between when Jesus spoke these words and when the authors penned them.

Interpreted "black" in one century and "white" in the other.

This idea is really whacked out. Between all the different New Testament interpretations, they are amazingly uniform as to how they were interpreted.

It's full of the kind of miracles David Blaine can only dream of and yet in modern times, modern intelligent people take it's content for granted and live by it?

Only fools think there is no God (see Psalm 14:1). Intelligent people, and those far more intelligent than you or I, believe in God and that miracles can and indeed do occur. Even Einstein, though not necessarily a Christian, believed in a higher power of some kind.

The Sun?

[conversationpc]

Only fools think there is no God (see Psalm 14:1). Intelligent people, and those far more intelligent than you or I, believe in God and that miracles can and indeed do occur. Even Einstein, though not necessarily a Christian, believed in a higher power of some kind.

The Sun?

Seems like he believed in some kind of pantheistic idea of God or there is the possibly that he was an atheist but there doesn't seem to be any consensus so I'll have to amend my comments slightly... http://www.eequalsmcsquared.auckland.ac ... in_god.cfm

We began by asking "Did Einstein believe in God?" The answer, as Hawking pointed out, depends on what you mean by "God". In one sense (the Pantheist sense), Einstein did believe in God. But in another sense he didn't. Indeed, except for his deciding to use the term "God" in a way that is unfamiliar to most people, his views are indistinguishable from those of someone who is an unabashed atheist.

[bluejeangirl76]

define miracle.

Headline in next Rolling Stone:
"Singer/songwriter Steve Perry to release 3rd solo effort this December."

Miracle ^

Any questions?

(no, I don't know nothing. I made that up. No PMs please )

[Enigma869]

define miracle.

The Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, for the first time since 1918!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

define miracle.

The Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, for the first time since 1918!


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

Quick...someone start The Twilight Zone music


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Happens When We Die?
By M.J. STEPHEY
Tue Sep 23, 6:40 PM ET



A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.

What sort of methods will this project use to try and verify people's claims of "near-death" experience?


When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness. So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion? So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.


How does this project relate to society's perception of death?


People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive. And that's a social definition we have. But the clinical definition we use is when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and as a consequence the brain itself stops working. When doctors shine a light into someone's pupil, it's to demonstrate that there is no reflex present. The eye reflex is mediated by the brain stem, and that's the area that keeps us alive; if that doesn't work, then that means that the brain itself isn't working. At that point, I'll call a nurse into the room so I can certify that this patient is dead. Fifty years ago, people couldn't survive after that.


How is technology challenging the perception that death is a moment?


Nowadays, we have technology that's improved so that we can bring people back to life. In fact, there are drugs being developed right now - who knows if they'll ever make it to the market - that may actually slow down the process of brain-cell injury and death. Imagine you fast-forward to 10 years down the line; and you've given a patient, whose heart has just stopped, this amazing drug; and actually what it does is, it slows everything down so that the things that would've happened over an hour, now happen over two days. As medicine progresses, we will end up with lots and lots of ethical questions.


But what is happening to the individual at that time? What's really going on? Because there is a lack of blood flow, the cells go into a kind of a frenzy to keep themselves alive. And within about 5 min. or so they start to damage or change. After an hour or so the damage is so great that even if we restart the heart again and pump blood, the person can no longer be viable, because the cells have just been changed too much. And then the cells continue to change so that within a couple of days the body actually decomposes. So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.


What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?


Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles - not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side - and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.


Why do you think there is such resistance to studies like yours?


Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.


Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true. So a new science is needed in the same way that we had to have a new quantum physics. The CERN particle accelerator may take us back to our roots. It may take us back to the first moments after the Big Bang, the very beginning. With our study, for the first time, we have the technology and the means to be able to investigate this. To see what happens at the end for us. Does something continue?

[YoungJRNY]

define miracle.

The Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, for the first time since 1918!


John from Boston

I was going to say USA's victory against the Russians in the Olympics. Beat me to the point.

[iLex]

Only fools think there is no God.

Sure, cause the bible says so

Intelligent people, and those far more intelligent than you or I, believe in God and that miracles can and indeed do occur.

Miracles can occur?...oh boy, you gotta be joking, right? No proof available I suppose?

Even Einstein, though not necessarily a Christian, believed in a higher power of some kind.

Einstein hoped there would be a religion that didn't conflict with science. Somehow it's the same like saying "I don't know", which is OK, especially cause he lived in an era where religious indoctrination was everywhere.

[YoungJRNY]

Quick...someone start The Twilight Zone music


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Happens When We Die?
By M.J. STEPHEY
Tue Sep 23, 6:40 PM ET



A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.

What sort of methods will this project use to try and verify people's claims of "near-death" experience?


When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness. So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion? So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.


How does this project relate to society's perception of death?


People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive. And that's a social definition we have. But the clinical definition we use is when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and as a consequence the brain itself stops working. When doctors shine a light into someone's pupil, it's to demonstrate that there is no reflex present. The eye reflex is mediated by the brain stem, and that's the area that keeps us alive; if that doesn't work, then that means that the brain itself isn't working. At that point, I'll call a nurse into the room so I can certify that this patient is dead. Fifty years ago, people couldn't survive after that.


How is technology challenging the perception that death is a moment?


Nowadays, we have technology that's improved so that we can bring people back to life. In fact, there are drugs being developed right now - who knows if they'll ever make it to the market - that may actually slow down the process of brain-cell injury and death. Imagine you fast-forward to 10 years down the line; and you've given a patient, whose heart has just stopped, this amazing drug; and actually what it does is, it slows everything down so that the things that would've happened over an hour, now happen over two days. As medicine progresses, we will end up with lots and lots of ethical questions.


But what is happening to the individual at that time? What's really going on? Because there is a lack of blood flow, the cells go into a kind of a frenzy to keep themselves alive. And within about 5 min. or so they start to damage or change. After an hour or so the damage is so great that even if we restart the heart again and pump blood, the person can no longer be viable, because the cells have just been changed too much. And then the cells continue to change so that within a couple of days the body actually decomposes. So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.


What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?


Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles - not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side - and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.


Why do you think there is such resistance to studies like yours?


Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.


Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true. So a new science is needed in the same way that we had to have a new quantum physics. The CERN particle accelerator may take us back to our roots. It may take us back to the first moments after the Big Bang, the very beginning. With our study, for the first time, we have the technology and the means to be able to investigate this. To see what happens at the end for us. Does something continue?

Read that this morning and immediately thought of this thread. What an interesting piece and interesting thing to base your career off of. These kinds of things bring me in. I love reading about this stuff. It can really be freaky but at the same time let you realize how really powerful the mind really is.

[conversationpc]

Only fools think there is no God.

Sure, cause the bible says so

Hey, you're free to believe whatever you want. I'm not going to try to shove it down your throat.

Intelligent people, and those far more intelligent than you or I, believe in God and that miracles can and indeed do occur.

Miracles can occur?...oh boy, you gotta be joking, right? No proof available I suppose?

Would you really believe even if you were shown the evidence? Be honest, you wouldn't. "Having eyes to see, they see not. Having ears to hear, they hear not" (my paraphrase).

Even Einstein, though not necessarily a Christian, believed in a higher power of some kind.

Einstein hoped there would be a religion that didn't conflict with science. Somehow it's the same like saying "I don't know", which is OK, especially cause he lived in an era where religious indoctrination was everywhere.

You're right. Religious indoctrination IS everywhere. Let's not be dishonest, though, and pretend it doesn't exist from the atheist side.

[YoungJRNY]

Only fools think there is no God.

This only proves my theory and experience that most religious people are so close minded and so caught up in the magical world of make believe..that if one doesn't follow the yellow brick road like themselves.. then all sin to you for the rest of your life and all who don't believe shall be punished. If anything, religion brings out the rotten in people..starting with this sentence that speaks a thousand words.

Only fools think there is no God.

[conversationpc]

This only proves my theory and experience that most religious people are so close minded and so caught up in the magical world of make believe..that if one doesn't follow the yellow brick road like themselves.. then all sin to you for the rest of your life and all who don't believe shall be punished. If anything, religion brings out the rotten in people..starting with this sentence that speaks a thousand words.

Only fools think there is no God.

Kinda hypocritical to point out my comment and its supposedly being "close minded" and then not also point out the fact that others have said similar things about Christians in this very thread, isn't it? iLex just got done posting that "intelligent" people don't believe in God and then you single me out for saying basically the same thing. If you're going to try to swat me on the knuckles for my statement, at least have the decency to do the same thing to the other side.

[YoungJRNY]

This only proves my theory and experience that most religious people are so close minded and so caught up in the magical world of make believe..that if one doesn't follow the yellow brick road like themselves.. then all sin to you for the rest of your life and all who don't believe shall be punished. If anything, religion brings out the rotten in people..starting with this sentence that speaks a thousand words.

Only fools think there is no God.

Kinda hypocritical to point out my comment and its supposedly being "close minded" and then not also point out the fact that others have said similar things about Christians in this very thread, isn't it? iLex just got done posting that "intelligent" people don't believe in God and then you single me out for saying basically the same thing. If you're going to try to swat me on the knuckles for my statement, at least have the decency to do the same thing to the other side.

Yeah, you're right and it's hypocritical for both sides. I, for one, love the fact when someone stands up for what they believe in. I've looked into the eyes of my girlfriend and whoever else was influenced by Religion and personally told them that I love the way they stand up for what they will always believe in and preached that even though there is a lot of wrong in this world.. there will always be room for personal belief and no one will ever take that away from you and that's the respect I have for anyone who steps before me.

But to not receive the same treatment and to see some of those same faces of those same people (who I congratulated) when I say I never went to Church, nor will I ever is a true kick in the nuts. The emotion shows of true sin and dis-taste. People have pushed the issue of Church with me many times, and as I maturely disapproved, I was still dis-respected in a way and was trying to be made out to be a fool.

Here's a question for those people... how about you convert to Atheism for ONE DAY to see if you would like it JUST TO SEE WHAT IT IS LIKE and go to many social gatherings of nothing but slammage of atheism down your throat?


No?? What do you mean no? "BUT maybe it will change your perception of things and maybe you will understand this way of living! (Disgusted face) I'm picking you up tomorrow and you will see first hand of what it's like. I guarantee you it will change your mind and make you feel better that you took the time to just go!"

Not fun, eh?

[iceberg]

define miracle.

Headline in next Rolling Stone:
"Singer/songwriter Steve Perry to release 3rd solo effort this December."

Miracle ^

Any questions?

(no, I don't know nothing. I made that up. No PMs please )

nope. that should do it.

[iceberg]

Only fools think there is no God.

This only proves my theory and experience that most religious people are so close minded and so caught up in the magical world of make believe..that if one doesn't follow the yellow brick road like themselves.. then all sin to you for the rest of your life and all who don't believe shall be punished. If anything, religion brings out the rotten in people..starting with this sentence that speaks a thousand words.

Only fools think there is no God.

and in ancient greek times, only fools believe in a god for the wind and all that moves. norse too. hell eqypt had a plethora of gods and felt "only a fool could deny".

[iceberg]

define miracle.

The Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, for the first time since 1918!

John from Boston

works for me. : ) now if we wanna double up on miracles, let the texas rangers win a world series.