Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[artist4perry]

Amish and Menonites are great people. Great neighbors, excellent cooks, and will kick your ass in beer league softball!!!

Peace lovers for sure!

[iLex]

Nah, I don't buy it...Islam is the fastest spreading religion in the world. If what you were saying was true, then any particular religion wouldn't spread all that readily. Most of those people who are converting to Islam were adherents of other religions so the statement that indoctrination is the main reason people believe just doesn't fly.

The reason Islam is spreading in Europe is because in the sixties loads of Moroccans came to work here. Throughout decades they stuck to their religion and habits ...integration: none.
They all have at least 6 children who have at least 6 children, etc.
Due to (here we go again...) muslim-indoctrination they are all still muslims, even the Belgian/Moroccan youngsters speak fluently Arab, because their religion demands it, and Dutch with an Arab accent.
Exactly proving my point.

[iLex]

More muslims in muslim-countries, more christians in christian countries. Denying this is just silly artist4perry, everyone will confirm this.

No one's saying that a particular religion being the most prominent one in a particular country doesn't mean that most of its citizens won't be adherents to that religion. However, this doesn't account for the millions of people around the world in other cultures, where other religions are the majority, that are converting to religions like Islam.

I can only speak for my own country as I have no statistics of others but in Belgium only few have converted to Islam. It happens so rarely that they usually make it on TV or in the newspapers.
Usually, they do that to be able to marry to a muslim.

[conversationpc]

The reason Islam is spreading in Europe is because in the sixties loads of Moroccans came to work here. Throughout decades they stuck to their religion and habits ...integration: none.
They all have at least 6 children who have at least 6 children, etc.
Due to (here we go again...) muslim-indoctrination they are all still muslims, even the Belgian/Moroccan youngsters speak fluently Arab, because there religion demands it, and Dutch with an Arab accent.
Exactly proving my point.

No, it doesn't prove your point. Millions of people who were not formerly Muslim are becoming Muslims. It's undeniable. Same thing happens with Christianity. Literally millions of people in Korea and China, for instance, have converted to Christiantity, despite the fact that many of them had never come into contact with a Christian before they encountered a missionary and despite government crackdowns on any kind of faith.

[artist4perry]

More muslims in muslim-countries, more christians in christian countries. Denying this is just silly artist4perry, everyone will confirm this.

No one's saying that a particular religion being the most prominent one in a particular country doesn't mean that most of its citizens won't be adherents to that religion. However, this doesn't account for the millions of people around the world in other cultures, where other religions are the majority, that are converting to religions like Islam.

I can only speak for my own country as I have no statistics of others but in Belgium only few have converted to Islam. It happens so rarely that they usually make it on TV or in the newspapers.
Usually, they do that to be able to marry to a muslim.

Birds of a feather flock together maybe? LOL! Silly statistic.

[iLex]

and the Catholic church didn't have so many pedophiles,

You have these in the US too? Pheeeww, I didn't mention it assuming it was a typical Belgian problem. We're a country lacking priests and yet the past few years we've went through a plague of pedophile priests.
Makes me wonder ...maybe we're short on priest because half of them is in jail

[artist4perry]

and the Catholic church didn't have so many pedophiles,

You have these in the US too? Pheeeww, I didn't mention it assuming it was a typical Belgian problem. We're a country lacking priests and yet the past few years we've went through a plague of pedophile priests.
Makes me wonder ...maybe we're short on priest because half of them is in jail

Well, I won't comment on the Catholic church, because I don't belong to it. But I still wonder what the obsession is for some of you not to recognize that when someone does something in the "name of God", you seem to not be able to seperate hypocrasy for Christian teachings. A pedophile, regardless of what he calls himself is not behaving in a Christian manner, they are commiting a sin condemned by the Bible. So talking about sinners using God's name in vain to prove how evil Christianity is, would be futile, because they are not behaving in a Christian manner.

[iLex]

The reason Islam is spreading in Europe is because in the sixties loads of Moroccans came to work here. Throughout decades they stuck to their religion and habits ...integration: none.
They all have at least 6 children who have at least 6 children, etc.
Due to (here we go again...) muslim-indoctrination they are all still muslims, even the Belgian/Moroccan youngsters speak fluently Arab, because there religion demands it, and Dutch with an Arab accent.
Exactly proving my point.

No, it doesn't prove your point. Millions of people who were not formerly Muslim are becoming Muslims. It's undeniable. Same thing happens with Christianity. Literally millions of people in Korea and China, for instance, have converted to Christiantity, despite the fact that many of them had never come into contact with a Christian before they encountered a missionary and despite government crackdowns on any kind of faith.

BUT ...IT'S A DIFFERENT STATEMENT!
I'm saying religiously indoctrinated people hardly ever get out of it, you're talking about how many getting into it.

[conversationpc]

BUT ...IT'S A DIFFERENT STATEMENT!
I'm saying religiously indoctrinated people hardly ever get out of it, you're talking about how many getting into it.

No, it's not. I'm talking about people who are mostly of another religion converting to a completely different one. That doesn't happen via indoctrination necessarily. Besides that, one could make a case for people being indoctrinated with atheism. It's a knife that cuts both ways.

[Enigma869]

Well, I won't comment on the Catholic church, because I don't belong to it. But I still wonder what the obsession is for some of you not to recognize that when someone does something in the "name of God", you seem to not be able to seperate hypocrasy for Christian teachings. A pedophile, regardless of what he calls himself is not behaving in a Christian manner, they are commiting a sin condemned by the Bible. So talking about sinners using God's name in vain to prove how evil Christianity is, would be futile, because they are not behaving in a Christian manner.

Just so I'm clear, NOWHERE in my statement did I ever say that Catholic priests were molesting children in the name of God! I wouldn't even begin to psychoanalyze their reasoning, because it's far beyond my level of understanding! Whether they're doing it "in the name of God" isn't really the issue. The bottom line is that they are members of the clergy, and are supposed to be trusted confidants, not child molesters! Again, I would never (and didn't) suggest that religion is evil because of some wayward priests!


John from Boston

[artist4perry]

Well, I won't comment on the Catholic church, because I don't belong to it. But I still wonder what the obsession is for some of you not to recognize that when someone does something in the "name of God", you seem to not be able to seperate hypocrasy for Christian teachings. A pedophile, regardless of what he calls himself is not behaving in a Christian manner, they are commiting a sin condemned by the Bible. So talking about sinners using God's name in vain to prove how evil Christianity is, would be futile, because they are not behaving in a Christian manner.

Just so I'm clear, NOWHERE in my statement did I ever say that Catholic priests were molesting children in the name of God! I wouldn't even begin to psychoanalyze their reasoning, because it's far beyond my level of understanding! Whether they're doing it "in the name of God" isn't really the issue. The bottom line is that they are members of the clergy, and are supposed to be trusted confidants, not child molesters! Again, I would never (and didn't) suggest that religion is evil because of some wayward priests!


John from Boston

Then what was the purpose of bringing it up?

[Enigma869]

Looks like some hotels are actually beginning to recognize that there are other religions in the world, other than Christianity! I applaud them for this!

http://information.travel.aol.com/artic ... 1200604661


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

Then what was the purpose of bringing it up?

I brought it up because I believed you might be intimating that I somehow was tying the transgressions of some religious leaders to their religion. I simply wanted to make it clear that I was not suggesting that. My apologies if I misunderstood your comment!


John from Boston

[S2M]

So I could basically INVENT my own religion - and it would HAVE to be respected, and recognized due to freedom of religion?

not being crass....just asking.

[Enigma869]

So I could basically INVENT my own religion - and it would HAVE to be respected, and recognized due to freedom of religion?

not being crass....just asking.

Actually, if you believe in Freedom of Religion, then the answer would have to be unequivocally yes!


John from Boston

[S2M]

Then.....I could buy a 'house'....have a weekly 'religious' group meeting....and never have to pay taxes again for my own house/church....?

[iLex]

No, it's not. I'm talking about people who are mostly of another religion converting to a completely different one.

I really don't see any evidence that this is really happening.

Besides that, one could make a case for people being indoctrinated with atheism. It's a knife that cuts both ways.

Atheists use science to explain things and teaching science cannot be considered indoctrination, this is called education.

[artist4perry]

No, it's not. I'm talking about people who are mostly of another religion converting to a completely different one.

I really don't see any evidence that this is really happening.

Besides that, one could make a case for people being indoctrinated with atheism. It's a knife that cuts both ways.

Atheists use science to explain things and teaching science cannot be considered indoctrination, this is called education.

Not all science is infallable. Science discovers mistakes all the time. I believe in science, but not that it is always correct. If you beleive science cannot be wrong then you are sadly mistaken. A Christian can believe in God and science too, just not all the "theories".

[artist4perry]

So I could basically INVENT my own religion - and it would HAVE to be respected, and recognized due to freedom of religion?

not being crass....just asking.

Actually, if you believe in Freedom of Religion, then the answer would have to be unequivocally yes!


John from Boston

Be my guest!

[Enigma869]

Then.....I could buy a 'house'....have a weekly 'religious' group meeting....and never have to pay taxes again for my own house/church....?

Well, because I'm not a CPA and don't understand the convoluted tax code, I'm not sure about that. I think the biggest scam that religion perpetrates is this tax free existence!


John from Boston

[artist4perry]

Then.....I could buy a 'house'....have a weekly 'religious' group meeting....and never have to pay taxes again for my own house/church....?

Well, because I'm not a CPA and don't understand the convoluted tax code, I'm not sure about that. I think the biggest scam that religion perpetrates is this tax free existence!


John from Boston

Yet they give a great deal to Charities and needy people. I am sure they would pay more taxes, if others would give more to those in need.

[iLex]

My question still stands. Can anyone answer these questions please?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18

And I'll add 2...
Is the catholic church still discriminating gay people?
Does the catholic church still thinks it's a sin to use condoms? (in order to fight AIDS in Africa)

[Enigma869]

Yet they give a great deal to Charities and needy people. I am sure they would pay more taxes, if others would give more to those in need.

Many religious organizations do indeed give a lot to charities. That said, the chairty argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with taxes. I can't think of any big companies (and many small ones) who don't give generously, and they still have to pay taxes. The religious organizations should be able to deduct their charitable givings off of their taxes, just like every other organization! I'm still curious (and I'm not being a wiseguy...I really would like to know) as to why that exemption even exists. It seems to me that many religious organizations raise money like politicians!


John from Boston

[S2M]

Yet they give a great deal to Charities and needy people. I am sure they would pay more taxes, if others would give more to those in need.

Many religious organizations do indeed give a lot to charities. That said, the chairty argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with taxes. I can't think of any big companies (and many small ones) who don't give generously, and they still have to pay taxes. The religious organizations should be able to deduct their charitable givings off of their taxes, just like every other organization! I'm still curious (and I'm not being a wiseguy...I really would like to know) as to why that exemption even exists. It seems to me that many religious organizations raise money like politicians!


John from Boston

Doesn't your priest own a Caddy, Lincoln, Lexus....?

I remember my priest owning a huge luxury car. Vow of poverty my arse!

[artist4perry]

Yet they give a great deal to Charities and needy people. I am sure they would pay more taxes, if others would give more to those in need.

Many religious organizations do indeed give a lot to charities. That said, the chairty argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with taxes. I can't think of any big companies (and many small ones) who don't give generously, and they still have to pay taxes. The religious organizations should be able to deduct their charitable givings off of their taxes, just like every other organization! I'm still curious (and I'm not being a wiseguy...I really would like to know) as to why that exemption even exists. It seems to me that many religious organizations raise money like politicians!


John from Boston

It truely would not bother me if religions did have to pay taxes. Then they could not tell us we cannot talk about politics from the pulpit! LOL! Belieive me with that exemption, comes restrictions.

[artist4perry]

My question still stands. Can anyone answer these questions please?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18

And I'll add 2...
Is the catholic church still discriminating gay people?
Does the catholic church still thinks it's a sin to use condoms? (in order to fight AIDS in Africa)

You still haven't answered my question about why it is so important to knock religion, that you keep adding all these things that you can find that are bad.
Not all religions believe in modern day miracles.

[conversationpc]

My question still stands. Can anyone answer these questions please?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18

And I'll add 2...
Is the catholic church still discriminating gay people?
Does the catholic church still thinks it's a sin to use condoms? (in order to fight AIDS in Africa)

I am not Catholic and do not pretend to speak for the Catholic church.

[Enigma869]

My question still stands. Can anyone answer these questions please?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18

And I'll add 2...
Is the catholic church still discriminating gay people?
Does the catholic church still thinks it's a sin to use condoms? (in order to fight AIDS in Africa)

I am not Catholic and do not pretend to speak for the Catholic church.

I don't know about the condom thing (I believe Catholocism prohibits ALL methods of birth control and not just condoms) but to my religious friends who aren't Catholic...Isn't homosexuality a sin across the board, according to Christianity? I never thought this was a Catholic versus Protestant issue, so perhaps someone who knows more about it than I do can shed some light on it.


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

No, it's not. I'm talking about people who are mostly of another religion converting to a completely different one.

I really don't see any evidence that this is really happening.

Then you aren't looking or choosing to not see it. Again, I go back to the growing numbers of Korean and Chinese Christians, which now number literally in the millions. These people were not Christian before and many practiced animist religions, Buddhism, etc., and other religions completely different from the teachings of Christianity.

Atheists use science to explain things and teaching science cannot be considered indoctrination, this is called education.

Nice try but that doesn't quite cut the mustard, does it? It might be a nice catch phrase but science cannot completely explain everything that we know and there's no way of knowing that it ever will (my opinion is that it won't or even can't).

[artist4perry]

I still wonder what the purpose of all this is. It seems some wish to find fault in religion, or religious people. I personally thought this thread was do you beleive? I am not trying to convert anyone. But I sure feel the pressure of atheistic thoughts being pressed on me. If I don't see things your way, I am dumb, delusional, etc. Conversationpc it has been fun talking to you. I think if people can discuss their thoughts without blowing a gasket or feeling the need to insult or belittle others for not looking at life the way they do, they might be more fun to talk to.