Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[artist4perry]

I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in the Bible. It's as simple as that. The Bible can sit next to Lord of the rings on my bookshelf. Both discuss the beginning of the universe, good versus evil and other things. The only difference is that one book is older than the other and has caused people to spill blood over it.

Did the Bible do that, or did people do that? What I have read Jesus calls for peace. He basicly said that if a man slaps you lend him your other cheek. Doesn't sound to me like he called for any violence at all. He said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Blood thirsty? Not the way I read his teachings. Some choose to do things in his name or in the name of religion, but are far from his teachings. I don't think he would claim them.

Blood was spilled by what people thought they interpreted from the book.The book is of course an object open to different interpretation and apparently numerous editing over the years.

I don't see how you can read what he said as an open book to interpret evil as good. Can't help the wack jobs out there. I read it as a book to help me be a better person, love others, and be peaceful. I am not perfect. I have never claimed to be. I can only strive to do what I can to better myself. I cannot control you, or anyone else. Just me. The bible gives me comfort, and support in my daily life. If you don't want to read it, that is O.K. But please don't fault it because some choose to use it for evil. It was not what it was intended for.

[iLex]

I agree scientists have to modify and re-evaluate their own theories all the time. This is healthy and all part of the learning curve. Science certainly doesn't have all the answers. But it doesn't profess to either.

However, with regard to the transitional bones, there are remains of at least 50 different species of 'almost human' species identified so far. Some show signs of increased brain size or tool use, indicators of a gradual increase in brain capacity/complexity. Others sow signs of an upright stance, another evolutionary advantage over competitor species. There have been a couple of well known fraudulent 'discoveries' but most of these humanoid bones are genuine. Many of the species became dead ends and didn't evolve any further, but I believe at least one did transition into the physical form we now know as human. But I also believe it was a slow process, not an instant appearance, and I believe it is still going on.

Maybe there was a guiding hand in this process, maybe there wasn't. I can't say. But I am curious as to how the very concept of evolution is viewed by those who truly believe in a god.

Marty

You know we almost became a dead end too? A very interesting read...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_lif ... tch1.shtml

[Don]

I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in the Bible. It's as simple as that. The Bible can sit next to Lord of the rings on my bookshelf. Both discuss the beginning of the universe, good versus evil and other things. The only difference is that one book is older than the other and has caused people to spill blood over it.

Did the Bible do that, or did people do that? What I have read Jesus calls for peace. He basicly said that if a man slaps you lend him your other cheek. Doesn't sound to me like he called for any violence at all. He said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Blood thirsty? Not the way I read his teachings. Some choose to do things in his name or in the name of religion, but are far from his teachings. I don't think he would claim them.

Blood was spilled by what people thought they interpreted from the book.The book is of course an object open to different interpretation and apparently numerous editing over the years.

I don't see how you can read what he said as an open book to interpret evil as good. Can't help the wack jobs out there. I read it as a book to help me be a better person, love others, and be peaceful. I am not perfect. I have never claimed to be. I can only strive to do what I can to better myself. I cannot control you, or anyone else. Just me. The bible gives me comfort, and support in my daily life. If you don't want to read it, that is O.K. But please don't fault it because some choose to use it for evil. It was not what it was intended for.

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

[Rhiannon]

Maybe there was a guiding hand in this process, maybe there wasn't. I can't say. But I am curious as to how the very concept of evolution is viewed by those who truly believe in a god.

The idea of God evolves.

Anyhow, it's pretty easy to consider the theory of evolution when you accept that the Bible was written by people several thousand years ago and over thousands of years who were isolated to one specific region and culture for the most part. I've studied the Bible 10 different ways from Tuesday and while there's a lot in it I like and interests me, there are at the same time parts of it that I know were just handed down oral traditions used to teach a lesson. That is the purpose of archaic storytelling, is it not?

So, then I can surmise that since these people didn't know life beyond their folklore, there is no way they'd know the earth was billions of years old. They didn't know they were tracing the path of a brontosaurus. And because I can accept humas as flawed and inaccurate, I can accept that all beings share similarities, and change over time. That's survival.

I've said this since I was 13... I think people take the Bible WAY too literally. (When applied to the storytelling.)

[iLex]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

[artist4perry]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

What is the use of songs that have been used to do evil things? Beetles~ Helter Skelter. Pink Floyd~ blamed for suicides. The list can go on. A nut job can use anything as an excuse to do bad things. Do we have to do away with everything because someone might claim to be told to do it by something else? I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

[RedWingFan]

I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

Hilarious!!!

[iLex]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

[Rick]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

That 1.6% that we don't share must be some brilliant stuff.

[artist4perry]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

So your sayin your a monkeys uncle? LOL! Just kidding, I could not resist.

[Don]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

What is the use of songs that have been used to do evil things? Beetles~ Helter Skelter. Pink Floyd~ blamed for suicides. The list can go on. A nut job can use anything as an excuse to do bad things. Do we have to do away with everything because someone might claim to be told to do it by something else? I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

You're missing the point. Why would God write something that could be used in his name for murder and evil? We're not talking a few people, we're talking the whole civilized world at one time. Wouldn't he (being all knowing) have given us something with simpler instructions that wouldn't be construed by 90% of the literate population as a handbook for the Inquisition? I'm not saying ban the Bible, I'm just saying when It comes to fantasy and Science Fiction, I prefer Lord of the Rings over the a book that has be used as justification (whether warranted or not) to commit atrocities against our fellow man. I mean you can say they didn't understand what they were reading back in the dark ages but that would mean God screwed up by releasing it prematurely at the expense of millions of innocent people that suffered for not falling into it's perceived guidelines.

[iLex]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

What is the use of songs that have been used to do evil things? Beetles~ Helter Skelter. Pink Floyd~ blamed for suicides. The list can go on. A nut job can use anything as an excuse to do bad things. Do we have to do away with everything because someone might claim to be told to do it by something else? I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

Mass murders where orchestrated by the church, that's a different story, not?
Do you also deny the discrimination of gay people in christianity nowadays?

[RedWingFan]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

That 1.6% that we don't share must be some brilliant stuff.

I remember seeing a documentary on Nova about this. The chimps have no concept of teaching. They can learn stuff. But whatever that is, dies when they do.

[artist4perry]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

What is the use of songs that have been used to do evil things? Beetles~ Helter Skelter. Pink Floyd~ blamed for suicides. The list can go on. A nut job can use anything as an excuse to do bad things. Do we have to do away with everything because someone might claim to be told to do it by something else? I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

You're missing the point. Why would God write something that could be used in his name for murder and evil? We're not talking a few people, we're talking the whole civilized world at one time. Wouldn't he (being all knowing) have given us something with simpler instructions that wouldn't be construed by 90% of the literate population as a handbook for the Inquisition? I'm not saying ban the Bible, I'm just saying when It comes to fantasy and Science Fiction, I prefer Lord of the Rings over the a book that has be used as justification (whether warranted or not) to commit atrocities against our fellow man. I mean you can say they didn't understand what they were reading back in the dark ages but that would mean God screwed up by releasing it prematurely at the expense of millions of innocent people that suffered for not falling into it's perceived guidelines.

I am not asking you to take it off the dusty shelf! LOL! I am just trying to say the book nor the message is not evil. There is an evil influence in the world too. Did you ever wonder if Satan makes you doubt God's existance, by using these people to do things to doubt him, deny him, or reject him? As I said, it is a choice, I can control only me. But the book is not to be blamed for lunatics. They are working for the opposition.

[artist4perry]

I'm not faulting it. To me it's a book just like the Koran. The pages were written by men. It's words were used during the torture of supposed witches and sinners over the centuries. I'm not blaming the sword, I'm blaming the person wielding it. Can you prove to me that the Koran is not the words of God. Of course not. They're books, written by MAN.

Exactly Gunbot, that's the whole point. What's the reliability of it's content if it can be used to justify mass murdering in one century and gay discrimination the other (now). Yet it's a christians' guideline for life

What is the use of songs that have been used to do evil things? Beetles~ Helter Skelter. Pink Floyd~ blamed for suicides. The list can go on. A nut job can use anything as an excuse to do bad things. Do we have to do away with everything because someone might claim to be told to do it by something else? I guess we should have killed the dog who told Son of Sam to do those murders. Can't have an evil influence lying around. Sheesh.

Mass murders where orchestrated by the church, that's a different story, not?
Do you also deny the discrimination of gay people in christianity nowadays?

Define "the church" if you are refering to the Catholic church, sorry I said I don't subscribe to their faith. And again, that was not ordered by God. That was a choice of some evil men in the days.
I have to love homosexuals. I don't understand their lifestyles. I would never mistreat someone because of it. The bible does not tell you to harm them.

[iLex]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

So your sayin your a monkeys uncle? LOL! Just kidding, I could not resist.

I know you are. Nevertheless this method is often used by creationists to ridiculize evolution. Anyone has an uncle chimp? And all the kids would go ..hahahahahahaha.

[artist4perry]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

So your sayin your a monkeys uncle? LOL! Just kidding, I could not resist.

I know you are. Nevertheless this method is often used by creationists to ridiculize evolution. Anyone has an uncle chimp? And all the kids would go ..hahahahahahaha.

As I said I was joking! Lighten up! You guys seem to be rabid on these subjects! Have some fun!

[iLex]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then.

Hey Marty, it's even more, we share 98,4% DNA with the chimp.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260
An other source mentioned that we are in fact closer related to the chimp than the chimp to the gorilla. Remarkable, not?

That 1.6% that we don't share must be some brilliant stuff.

Definitely more brilliant for one than for the other!

[conversationpc]

Mass murders where orchestrated by the church, that's a different story, not?

Karl Marx, the father of communism, was an atheist. Therefore, atheism is responsible for the deaths of millions of people since the system he created in Russia ended up killing all those people.

That's just an example of the stupidity of this argument that religion is the cause of so much suffering. Atheism is no more responsible for the deaths of those people in Russia than Christianity, Islam, etc., are for the deaths of millions of others. Evil people seeking their own fame, fortune, and power use whatever means necessary to achieve their ends. In some cases, it's a system of government, economics, religion, etc. It's the means to justify the ends, not the thing in and of itself that is wrong. I say this as a Christian even about religions with which I totally disagree, such as Islam, Buddhism, etc.

[iLex]

Lighten up!

Lights out you mean ...2h50 am over here, off to bed.

[artist4perry]

Lighten up!

Lights out you mean ...2h50 am over here, off to bed.

Nice talking to you!

[artist4perry]

Mass murders where orchestrated by the church, that's a different story, not?

Karl Marx, the father of communism, was an atheist. Therefore, atheism is responsible for the deaths of millions of people since the system he created in Russia ended up killing all those people.

That's just an example of the stupidity of this argument that religion is the cause of so much suffering. Atheism is no more responsible for the deaths of those people in Russia than Christianity, Islam, etc., are for the deaths of millions of others. Evil people seeking their own fame, fortune, and power use whatever means necessary to achieve their ends. In some cases, it's a system of government, economics, religion, etc. It's the means to justify the ends, not the thing in and of itself that is wrong. I say this as a Christian even about religions with which I totally disagree, such as Islam, Buddhism, etc.

Exactly! Nuts are nuts. Murdering leaders are murdering leaders.

[iLex]

Mass murders where orchestrated by the church, that's a different story, not?

Karl Marx, the father of communism, was an atheist. Therefore, atheism is responsible for the deaths of millions of people since the system he created in Russia ended up killing all those people.

That's just an example of the stupidity of this argument that religion is the cause of so much suffering. Atheism is no more responsible for the deaths of those people in Russia than Christianity, Islam, etc., are for the deaths of millions of others. Evil people seeking their own fame, fortune, and power use whatever means necessary to achieve their ends. In some cases, it's a system of government, economics, religion, etc. It's the means to justify the ends, not the thing in and of itself that is wrong. I say this as a Christian even about religions with which I totally disagree, such as Islam, Buddhism, etc.

The argument is only stupid in the content you put it.
This is all about how useless a book is that can be interpreted in a million different ways. Those killing christians found justification for their deeds in the bible. They lived by "the word of god" just like you are.
Only time changed and so did the bible's interpretation.

[iLex]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

[Rhiannon]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

If you want a crazy long thread around here, just include either religion, politics, or Perry!

[Rick]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

[Rick]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

If you want a crazy long thread around here, just include either religion, politics, or Perry!

For the most part this has been a very respectful discussion. All the topics you mentioned can get people pretty worked up.

[StevePerryHair]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Oh look, there's innocent Rick, start a poll and then runs off for all hell to break loose (if there is a hell )

[artist4perry]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Well I am getting bored with it. It started out inocently enough.........then I felt I was on the firing squad! LOL! That is why I had to add some humor to the silly white rabbit chases we get into. Some still feel the need to make us justify our faith, or explain it, or whatever the motive. I just think you either believe, or don't. Just leave my right to believe alone. I get tired of some people trying to give faith a black eye for whatever purpose I don't know. Just leave me to my delusional thoughts and I will be happy! I have no problem with Atheists, till they try and infringe on my rights. Live and let live. I will with you!

[conversationpc]

This is all about how useless a book is that can be interpreted in a million different ways. Those killing christians found justification for their deeds in the bible. They lived by "the word of god" just like you are.
Only time changed and so did the bible's interpretation.

The Bible or Christianity is in no way any more responsible for the deaths of millions than is atheism for the deaths of millions in Russia. If you're going to use this argument, at least be consistent in your thinking.