Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[Rick]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Well I am getting bored with it. It started out inocently enough.........then I felt I was on the firing squad! LOL! That is why I had to add some humor to the silly white rabbit chases we get into. Some still feel the need to make us justify our faith, or explain it, or whatever the motive. I just think you either believe, or don't. Just leave my right to believe alone. I get tired of some people trying to give faith a black eye for whatever purpose I don't know. Just leave me to my delusional thoughts and I will be happy! I have no problem with Atheists, till they try and infringe on my rights. Live and let live. I will with you!

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

[artist4perry]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Well I am getting bored with it. It started out inocently enough.........then I felt I was on the firing squad! LOL! That is why I had to add some humor to the silly white rabbit chases we get into. Some still feel the need to make us justify our faith, or explain it, or whatever the motive. I just think you either believe, or don't. Just leave my right to believe alone. I get tired of some people trying to give faith a black eye for whatever purpose I don't know. Just leave me to my delusional thoughts and I will be happy! I have no problem with Atheists, till they try and infringe on my rights. Live and let live. I will with you!

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

Well at least I am not alone.........now I can go weave my baskets in peace! Can I borrow your crayon?

[conversationpc]

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

Yes, and I've joined a support group as you can probably tell by my sig.

[STYX Fan]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

[artist4perry]

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

Yes, and I've joined a support group as you can probably tell by my sig.

Where do I sign up? * take the meds again he says, go back to my room he says, bully* I hate those guys in white!

[iceberg]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

[artist4perry]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

They got Short? Well I knew Tommy Shaw was no giant but man......... I like Styx, used to play pick them up all the time.

[iceberg]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

They got Short? Well I knew Tommy Shaw was no giant but man......... I like Styx, used to play pick them up all the time.

nah. just about to play them. next week is all journey night.

[artist4perry]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

They got Short? Well I knew Tommy Shaw was no giant but man......... I like Styx, used to play pick them up all the time.

nah. just about to play them. next week is all journey night.

Enjoy!

[iceberg]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

They got Short? Well I knew Tommy Shaw was no giant but man......... I like Styx, used to play pick them up all the time.

nah. just about to play them. next week is all journey night.

Enjoy!

it's what i do.

[Sarah]

Then.....I could buy a 'house'....have a weekly 'religious' group meeting....and never have to pay taxes again for my own house/church....?

[etcetera]

STYX MY IS GOD!!!!

good call. styx up shortly.

They got Short? Well I knew Tommy Shaw was no giant but man......... I like Styx, used to play pick them up all the time.

A sis still has the set we used to spend an hour or two with ages ago...discolored by now lol.

[iLex]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Well I am getting bored with it. It started out inocently enough.........then I felt I was on the firing squad! LOL! That is why I had to add some humor to the silly white rabbit chases we get into. Some still feel the need to make us justify our faith, or explain it, or whatever the motive. I just think you either believe, or don't. Just leave my right to believe alone. I get tired of some people trying to give faith a black eye for whatever purpose I don't know. Just leave me to my delusional thoughts and I will be happy! I have no problem with Atheists, till they try and infringe on my rights. Live and let live. I will with you!

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

Throughout history mankind believed in many gods, they had gods for every not-understood phenomena. Just like religion has now ...but it never proved they were right.
Unless you try to prove one unprovable thing with the other (which rational human beings don't do) there is absolutely no reason to believe in god.
This documentary explains the success of religion... all of them, no matter how different from yours! -> absolute truth?

The Root of All Evil - The Virus of Faith
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FpdYCLWFs&fmt=18
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHSpE-2 ... ted&fmt=18
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnK3Qq2M ... ted&fmt=18
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T703JeL--0&fmt=18
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw0eC6oD ... ted&fmt=18


The closest you will ever get to the truth is through science. Somewhere in our past, scientists found out about the interaction between light particles and electrons, at first their theories were far from perfect but the result is what you are looking at right now ...a working computer monitor. That's how mainstream science works ...a long learning process resulting in something which is reproducible (prove).
Evolution used to be a theory but is proven nowadays, really. Thanks to the modern science of genetics we can see for ourselves what species evolved from where in what period of time.

But why bother about science while all answers can be found in the church around the corner, right?

BTW: These fair questions are still standing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18
No one? Why not?

[RossValoryRocks]

Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today

You still think so Rick?

I just wanted to do a simple poll and here we are 16 pages later....

Well I am getting bored with it. It started out inocently enough.........then I felt I was on the firing squad! LOL! That is why I had to add some humor to the silly white rabbit chases we get into. Some still feel the need to make us justify our faith, or explain it, or whatever the motive. I just think you either believe, or don't. Just leave my right to believe alone. I get tired of some people trying to give faith a black eye for whatever purpose I don't know. Just leave me to my delusional thoughts and I will be happy! I have no problem with Atheists, till they try and infringe on my rights. Live and let live. I will with you!

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God. So that means the vast majority of America, and probably a higher majority of the world are delusional.

Throughout history mankind believed in many gods, they had gods for every not-understood phenomena. Just like religion has now ...but it never proved they were right.
Unless you try to prove one unprovable thing with the other (which rational human beings don't do) there is absolutely no reason to believe in god.
This documentary explains the success of religion... all of them, no matter how different from yours! -> absolute truth?

The Root of All Evil - The Virus of Faith
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FpdYCLWFs&fmt=18
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHSpE-2 ... ted&fmt=18
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnK3Qq2M ... ted&fmt=18
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T703JeL--0&fmt=18
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw0eC6oD ... ted&fmt=18


The closest you will ever get to the truth is through science. Somewhere in our past, scientists found out about the interaction between light particles and electrons, at first their theories were far from perfect but the result is what you are looking at right now ...a working computer monitor. That's how mainstream science works ...a long learning process resulting in something which is reproducible (prove).
Evolution used to be a theory but is proven nowadays, really. Thanks to the modern science of genetics we can see for ourselves what species evolved from where in what period of time.

But why bother about science while all answers can be found in the church around the corner, right?

BTW: These fair questions are still standing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18
No one? Why not?

You are being rude and condescending. As Deano would say "Nothing but Eurotrash".

No one here is putting YOU down for not having a faith, why must you put people down who do?

Usually people behave like this to make them feel better.

Faith is believing is something you can't see, touch, smell, feel or taste and cannot prove. It is intensely personal. If you choose not to have faith in anything then so be it. Leave those of us who do to our faith.

Like I said before go be a happy little atheist and those of us who aren't will enjoy our lives as you enjoy yours.

[conversationpc]

The closest you will ever get to the truth is through science.

This might be one of the dumbest statements ever in this forum. Science has been wrong more times than I care to count.

Evolution used to be a theory but is proven nowadays, really.

By adding that "really" onto the end of your sentence, it seems like you are "really" trying hard to convince yourself that it is so. Look, I don't know if evolution is complete fact or not. What I do know is that it hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&fmt=18
No one? Why not?

I'll take these on one at a time as I have time to do so....

Question #1 - Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

The framer of this question thinks he has asked an intelligent question here but what he's really done is asked a question that is unanswerable and placed God in a tight, convenient box of the framer's own design. As a Christian, I do not have the answer to all questions and, in fact, the Bible says that "Now we see through a glass darkly" (my paraphrase). This is really part of the larger question of why does God allow suffering, which is something everyone asks themselves at some point. My answer has always been that I don't know for sure. There is no embarrasment in admitting that I cannot know everything or even begin to comprehend the mind of God.

What I do know is that I've seen a number of suffering people who have faith in God and whose faith is strengthened despite tough circumstances and who are able to be a Godly example to others. Because of these people, many others have had their own faith strengthened. That's nowhere near answering the question but it's hardly a reason to dismiss the fact that there is a God and that he cares about people.

Secondly, the framer puts constraints on God, hence the "God box" I mentioned earlier. "God must act immediately and restore the severed limb." The only possible answer then is for God to restore the severed limb. In other words, if you were God, wouldn't you heal them? What he's attempting to do is to get you to use your own judgement and that God should have the same judgement. But then again, we're not God are we?

BTW, my fair question is still standing...
How did the very first matter appear on its own?
No one? Why not?

[iLex]

You are being rude and condescending. As Deano would say "Nothing but Eurotrash".

No one here is putting YOU down for not having a faith, why must you put people down who do?

Usually people behave like this to make them feel better.

Faith is believing is something you can't see, touch, smell, feel or taste and cannot prove. It is intensely personal. If you choose not to have faith in anything then so be it. Leave those of us who do to our faith.

Like I said before go be a happy little atheist and those of us who aren't will enjoy our lives as you enjoy yours.

We're having a civilized discussion about religion. Everyone involved tries to come up with its best arguments possible, that's what arguing is about.
If I lived closer I would love to go out with "conversationpc" and "artist4perry", give them a hug, buy them a drink, and talk some more about this subject.
The only one having a problem is you and the solution is simple ...don't click on the thread that says "Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today".

[conversationpc]

We're having a civilized discussion about religion. Everyone involved tries to come up with its best arguments possible, that's what arguing is about.
If I lived closer I would love to go out with "conversationpc" and "artist4perry", give them a hug, buy them a drink, and talk some more about this subject.
The only one having a problem is you and the solution is simple ...don't click on the thread that says "Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today".

To be fair, posting links and videos basically calling religious people deluded or indoctrinated is not very civilized. However, I will agree that this conversation has been pretty calm, for the most part. I've enjoyed it.

[iLex]

We're having a civilized discussion about religion. Everyone involved tries to come up with its best arguments possible, that's what arguing is about.
If I lived closer I would love to go out with "conversationpc" and "artist4perry", give them a hug, buy them a drink, and talk some more about this subject.
The only one having a problem is you and the solution is simple ...don't click on the thread that says "Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today".

To be fair, posting links and videos basically calling religious people deluded or indoctrinated is not very civilized. However, I will agree that this conversation has been pretty calm, for the most part. I've enjoyed it.

I understand Dave, but how else can you call the believe in imaginary beings?

No offense meant, "really"!

Back later...

[iceberg]

We're having a civilized discussion about religion. Everyone involved tries to come up with its best arguments possible, that's what arguing is about.
If I lived closer I would love to go out with "conversationpc" and "artist4perry", give them a hug, buy them a drink, and talk some more about this subject.
The only one having a problem is you and the solution is simple ...don't click on the thread that says "Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today".

To be fair, posting links and videos basically calling religious people deluded or indoctrinated is not very civilized. However, I will agree that this conversation has been pretty calm, for the most part. I've enjoyed it.

I understand Dave, but how else can you call the believe in imaginary beings?

No offense meant, "really"!

Back later...

faith, they call it.

[conversationpc]

I understand Dave, but how else can you call the believe in imaginary beings?

To me, it's no different than saying this complex, orderly universe came to be out of chaos. There is so much design inherent in almost everything around us that it seems highly illogical that this could have arisen from anything other than a designer, otherwise known as God.

[MartyMoffatt]

I think this has been an entertaining debate. I know Alex and I know there is certainly no malice in his comments. It is simply a boisterous debate of argument and counter-argument which just may allow each of us to leave the arena slightly better informed.

The concepts of religion and faith, or indeed the lack of them, are so ingrained in all of us as individuals, that no amount of arguing here is going to convince anyone to convert to the other side. It just ain’t gonna happen. So please, take these arguments, on both sides, in a spirit of gentle sparring. If nothing else, they will allow you to re-evaluate and possibly re-affirm your own belief system.

I am an agnostic (ie sitting on the fence) but with a heavy leaning towards atheism. I also believe in extra-terrestrial life (but NOT Little Green Men in UFOs I might add – and as someone who spent several years running an organisation investigating UFO sightings I consider myself at least well informed in that area).

However, I absolutely defend the right of any individual to have and to observe their own belief system (faith, religion, science, pseudoscience, take your pick), as long as it isn’t enforced on others. I have many friends who practice one religion or another (Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus) or sometimes just passively consider themselves part of a particular religion, as well as many atheists, and I get on extremely well with them all. The only ones who bother me are those of a more extremist persuasion, for instance some Jehova’s Witnesses, who come knocking door to door trying to convince me to follow their faith, some religious cults etc. I've even encountered a religion based in all seriousness on the premise that Christ is an alien living on Pluto - look it up... they are called the Aetherius Society, and I've had many an argument with their followers. I’ve been on the end of ear-bashings from well meaning people who are absolutely and utterly convinced they’re right and can’t accept another point of view.

The simple fact is we cannot all be right so some of us must be wrong. Maybe it’s me. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s ALL of us.

Marty

[conversationpc]

The concepts of religion and faith, or indeed the lack of them, are so ingrained in all of us as individuals, that no amount of arguing here is going to convince anyone to convert to the other side. It just ain’t gonna happen.

Sometimes it actually does convince others. For instace, Lee Strobel, former atheist and legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, converted to Christianity after searching and researching the arguments of Christianity.

[Enigma869]

The concepts of religion and faith, or indeed the lack of them, are so ingrained in all of us as individuals, that no amount of arguing here is going to convince anyone to convert to the other side. It just ain’t gonna happen.

I don't even really understand the concept of trying to convert someone to what you believe in. It's sort of goofy. Who cares if someone agrees with you or doesn't agree with you. I've never felt the need to turn the whole world into New England Patriots fans, so why is it that many religions advocate their followers of trying to convert everyone around them?? It's actually kind of obnoxious. I'm very okay with someone who is devoutly religious (I have some in my own family). I'm just not okay with trying to force those beliefs on people who genuinely don't give a shit!


John from Boston

[StyxCollector]

I don't even really understand the concept of trying to convert someone to what you believe in. It's sort of goofy. Who cares if someone agrees with you or doesn't agree with you. I've never felt the need to turn the whole world into New England Patriots fans, so why is it that many religions advocate their followers of trying to convert everyone around them?? It's actually kind of obnoxious. I'm very okay with someone who is devoutly religious (I have some in my own family). I'm just not okay with trying to force those beliefs on people who genuinely don't give a shit!

Well, exactly. For example, I don't force everyone around me to keep Kosher because I do, but they need to respect me in my house, and it's appreciated that they respect it when we're out. I don't make a federal case if I'm somewhere and there's nothing for me to eat. I don't advertise it or wear it on my forehead. I wish some people would take that approach with their religion or lack thereof (some agnostic people can be just as bad as those who shill hard for their faith).

It's really obnoxious when people chime in with how restrictive being Kosher is (it isn't), how I'm "missing out", etc. Whatever! Get a life!

I think it generally stems from a lack of understanding more than anything else. Anyone who knows me knows that I'll explain things if they ask; I am not ashamed to be Jewish nor am I ashamed to keep Kosher. Most of my friends who are Jewish do not keep Kosher. No one should be ashamed of who they are; they just shouldn't try to force it on others.

[iLex]

To me, it's no different than saying this complex, orderly universe came to be out of chaos. There is so much design inherent in almost everything around us that it seems highly illogical that this could have arisen from anything other than a designer, otherwise known as God.

Basically that's quantum mechanics again. You can go study why the universe is what is and they also know how & when ,what we call the laws of nature, where formed.
It's heavy stuff and it might require a better brain than yours and mine together but that's no reason to invent simple easy-to-understand solutions to complex questions.
It's Stephen Hawking you should read, not the bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking

[MartyMoffatt]

The concepts of religion and faith, or indeed the lack of them, are so ingrained in all of us as individuals, that no amount of arguing here is going to convince anyone to convert to the other side. It just ain’t gonna happen.

Sometimes it actually does convince others. For instace, Lee Strobel, former atheist and legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, converted to Christianity after searching and researching the arguments of Christianity.

All I'm saying is that such conversion is unlikely to happen here on a public bulletin board. When people do convert, one way or the other, it tends to be in private after a period of research or a particular personal experience.

Marty

[Don]

I think this has been an entertaining debate. I know Alex and I know there is certainly no malice in his comments. It is simply a boisterous debate of argument and counter-argument which just may allow each of us to leave the arena slightly better informed.

The concepts of religion and faith, or indeed the lack of them, are so ingrained in all of us as individuals, that no amount of arguing here is going to convince anyone to convert to the other side. It just ain’t gonna happen. So please, take these arguments, on both sides, in a spirit of gentle sparring. If nothing else, they will allow you to re-evaluate and possibly re-affirm your own belief system.

I am an agnostic (ie sitting on the fence) but with a heavy leaning towards atheism. I also believe in extra-terrestrial life (but NOT Little Green Men in UFOs I might add – and as someone who spent several years running an organisation investigating UFO sightings I consider myself at least well informed in that area).

However, I absolutely defend the right of any individual to have and to observe their own belief system (faith, religion, science, pseudoscience, take your pick), as long as it isn’t enforced on others. I have many friends who practice one religion or another (Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus) or sometimes just passively consider themselves part of a particular religion, as well as many atheists, and I get on extremely well with them all. The only ones who bother me are those of a more extremist persuasion, for instance some Jehova’s Witnesses, who come knocking door to door trying to convince me to follow their faith, some religious cults etc. I've even encountered a religion based in all seriousness on the premise that Christ is an alien living on Pluto - look it up... they are called the Aetherius Society, and I've had many an argument with their followers. I’ve been on the end of ear-bashings from well meaning people who are absolutely and utterly convinced they’re right and can’t accept another point of view.

The simple fact is we cannot all be right so some of us must be wrong. Maybe it’s me. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s ALL of us.

Marty

I'm in your camp Marty.

[conversationpc]

To me, it's no different than saying this complex, orderly universe came to be out of chaos. There is so much design inherent in almost everything around us that it seems highly illogical that this could have arisen from anything other than a designer, otherwise known as God.

Basically that's quantum mechanics again. You can go study why the universe is what is and they also know how & when ,what we call the laws of nature, where formed.
It's heavy stuff and it might require a better brain than yours and mine together but that's no reason to invent simple easy-to-understand solutions to complex questions.
It's Stephen Hawking you should read, not the bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking

I've heard this stuff before and I just don't buy it. You might be able to somehow do enough mental gymnastics to explain how order came out of disorder but there is still no plausible explanation for matter to appear out of nowhere from nothing.

[artist4perry]

We're having a civilized discussion about religion. Everyone involved tries to come up with its best arguments possible, that's what arguing is about.
If I lived closer I would love to go out with "conversationpc" and "artist4perry", give them a hug, buy them a drink, and talk some more about this subject.
The only one having a problem is you and the solution is simple ...don't click on the thread that says "Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today".

To be fair, posting links and videos basically calling religious people deluded or indoctrinated is not very civilized. However, I will agree that this conversation has been pretty calm, for the most part. I've enjoyed it.

I understand Dave, but how else can you call the believe in imaginary beings?

No offense meant, "really"!

Back later...

I am an artist. I live that way~ imagination is my bread and butter. One with an open mind can conceive many things one with a closed mind cannot. Some only believe in what they can see, touch, or taste. I believe in what is not observed by the eye, but by the heart. It is hard to explain to someone who can fathom only that which he can explain in a box. I live out of a box. God is the greatest artist of all time. My mentor, and friend.

[iLex]

Probably depends on what study you read, but the one I read says that 92% of Americans believe in God.

• and yet America never got spared from misfortune.
• and yet Americans are not healthier and don't get older than people are in other Western countries.
• and yet Americans have accidents at the same rate than anywhere else.
• ...and if they do they don't heal faster, despite all prayers.
• and yet they divorce at the same rate as anywhere else.

mmmmm... a bit strange, isn't it?