Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[artist4perry]

Dave, what's your take on these verses? Are they in the same book you are reading?


I looked up the first one and it's really there...

WHOA! I must admit that I'm not a Bible reader but am STUNNED to learn that these verses are actually in The Bible. It's quite shocking, actually. To clear up some of my own ignorance....Is what you're saying Dave is that "Christians" don't recognize The Old Testament and that only Jewish people do??? Or is it just certain factions of Christianity that don't recognize this nonsense?


John from Boston

Would be nice if he read it in context. And remember that was old testement time, not how we are told to live by Jesus today. As far as Jewish people go, isn't your wife Jewish? Or am I thinking of someone else? If she is ask her what she beleives! I don't know enough about their religion to tell you! To say we don't recognize it is nonsense. It is part of the bible. Some faiths do not live by the old but the new testement. That is why it is a "NEW" testement. But I am not sure I can explain it to someone in a short time. Do you know what these verses say, and why God said it in those times? You need a deeper study to understand it.

[RossValoryRocks]

Questions for atheists:

1. If you really think there is no God, why even bother caring that others believe in Him? After all, it really doesn't matter if this life is all there is and then you turn into worm food.

Because religion is irrational and it hurts us as a species.

2. Again, there is no God...Who cares if people murder, rape, steal, etc., because we will all send up in the same place when we die...the ground.

That's morality you're getting at, nothing to do with religion.

3. If you are an atheist, why not support anarchy instead of some form of government? Since there is no higher power to answer to and every man is his own God, wouldn't it make more sense to not have a government?

Cause I believe it's useful for a society to have a law, simple as that. It's makes sure morality is applied the way its suppose to.
Reversing the question would make more sense... why do christians societies need a law when there's a god who's judge and jury. Muslim countries have the "sharia". Basically, in conflict, the one with the best "religious" record gets of the hook. And if he lied, Allah will take care of him. No prove, no evidence, nothing.

You know you just keep on going and acting the fool. You need to back off here. No one is slamming you for being an atheist. No one has attacked you, but you are on the attack against those of us with religious faith. You need to stop, now. You are out of line, and contrary to your previous post to in response to my asking you to stop, you are not having a nice debate. You are being very insulting to everyone here who practices any faith. What you are doing now rises to the level of harassment.

I don't need to defend my faith against you or anyone else and neither do any of the people of faith here.

[RedWingFan]

I don't need to defend my faith against you or anyone else and neithe do any of the people of faith here.

Remember we will only have to answer for our own actions.

[Enigma869]

Would be nice if he read it in context. And remember that was old testement time, not how we are told to live by Jesus today. As far as Jewish people go, isn't your wife Jewish?

I can't imagine "context" altering that content much, but okay. And yes, my wife is indeed Jewish (by birth). That said, she's about as religious as I am, meaning not remotely. Because my wife describes herself as Agnostic, I'm confident she wouldn't know the answer to this question. Hell, she doesn't even know when Yom Kippur is (which I believe is the holiest day on the Jewish calendar). We seem to have a lot knowledgeable people here, as it pertains to religion, so I was hoping someone could clear up my confusion between The New and Old Testaments.


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

WHOA! I must admit that I'm not a Bible reader but am STUNNED to learn that these verses are actually in The Bible. It's quite shocking, actually. To clear up some of my own ignorance....Is what you're saying Dave is that "Christians" don't recognize The Old Testament and that only Jewish people do??? Or is it just certain factions of Christianity that don't recognize this nonsense?

Christians don't and historically never have followed the law as described in the Old Testament, though there are very few who say you must still follow the Jewish law. However, it's very clear while reading the New Testament that because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, he fulfilled the Old Testament law. Christians live according to Jesus' teachings, not the law. Romans 6:14 says "You are not under the law but under grace". The Apostle Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to return to the law as a way to please God (Galatians 3:1-3). Also, under Jewish law, men were required to be circumcised but Paul specifically instructed believers that it was not necessary (Galatians 5:1-6 & 6:15).

[artist4perry]

Questions for atheists:

1. If you really think there is no God, why even bother caring that others believe in Him? After all, it really doesn't matter if this life is all there is and then you turn into worm food.

Because religion is irrational and it hurts us as a species.

2. Again, there is no God...Who cares if people murder, rape, steal, etc., because we will all send up in the same place when we die...the ground.

That's morality you're getting at, nothing to do with religion.

3. If you are an atheist, why not support anarchy instead of some form of government? Since there is no higher power to answer to and every man is his own God, wouldn't it make more sense to not have a government?

Cause I believe it's useful for a society to have a law, simple as that. It's makes sure morality is applied the way its suppose to.
Reversing the question would make more sense... why do christians societies need a law when there's a god who's judge and jury. Muslim countries have the "sharia". Basically, in conflict, the one with the best "religious" record gets of the hook. And if he lied, Allah will take care of him. No prove, no evidence, nothing.

You know you just keep on going and acting the fool. You need to back off here. No one is slamming you for being an atheist. No one has attacked you, but you are on the attack against those of us with religious faith. You need to stop, now. You are out of line, and contrary to your previous post to in response to my asking you to stop, you are not having a nice debate. You are being very insulting to everyone here who practices any faith. What you are doing now rises to the level of harassment.

I don't need to defend my faith against you or anyone else and neithe do any of the people of faith here.

I know you mean well, but if he is curious, I will answer his questions. If I feel he is abusive, I will say as much. I feel he has alot of turmoil over this subject. Maybe something he needs to work out. I am so thankful to you for looking out for those of us of faith through these discussions. I am a big girl, and I will answer what I know. What I don't I will say as much. My faith has never been swayed because someone doubts the existance of God. It gives me strength and that is what matters. If they cannot see out of the "box" as I said, I am not angry. Be at peace my friend. I bear no ill will to someone with curiosity.

[Don]

I don't see what is harassing about ilex's posts. He hasn't used derogatory language. Every post he has made has gotten him a response. When someone put something in one of the earlier posts which might have been offensive to Catholics, no one blinked. I thought the debate was going well. If it has caused someone to rethink or question their faith or atheism, what's wrong with that? I just can't see what he did that is so wrong to be labeled as harassment.

[StyxCollector]

Would be nice if he read it in context. And remember that was old testement time, not how we are told to live by Jesus today. As far as Jewish people go, isn't your wife Jewish?

I can't imagine "context" altering that content much, but okay. And yes, my wife is indeed Jewish (by birth). That said, she's about as religious as I am, meaning not remotely. Because my wife describes herself as Agnostic, I'm confident she wouldn't know the answer to this question. Hell, she doesn't even know when Yom Kippur is (which I believe is the holiest day on the Jewish calendar). We seem to have a lot knowledgeable people here, as it pertains to religion, so I was hoping someone could clear up my confusion between The New and Old Testaments.


John from Boston

Yom Kippur is in just under two weeks (just saying).

The confusion is easy: for Jews, anything written after (i.e. the Gospel) by Christians (well, some were still Jews at the time) the Five Books of Moses is not part of the Torah (bible, whatever you want to call it in your religion). There are of course the commentaries and such which are part of Jewish canon, but anything referring to Jesus is not part of Judaism. The New Testament extends the Old Testament, and in some cases, has needed (depending on your variation of Christianity) needed a bit of an update/explanation from the church since it's 100% proven and false that the Jews killed Jesus. To Jews, no one is refuting he existed as a human, but the Romans killed him. Some of the bad mojo in the New Testament and its interpretation has led to some ugliness in the past. That's the simplest explanation.

[artist4perry]

WHOA! I must admit that I'm not a Bible reader but am STUNNED to learn that these verses are actually in The Bible. It's quite shocking, actually. To clear up some of my own ignorance....Is what you're saying Dave is that "Christians" don't recognize The Old Testament and that only Jewish people do??? Or is it just certain factions of Christianity that don't recognize this nonsense?

Christians don't and historically never have followed the law as described in the Old Testament, though there are very few who say you must still follow the Jewish law. However, it's very clear while reading the New Testament that because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, he fulfilled the Old Testament law. Christians live according to Jesus' teachings, not the law. Romans 6:14 says "You are not under the law but under grace". The Apostle Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to return to the law as a way to please God (Galatians 3:1-3). Also, under Jewish law, men were required to be circumcised but Paul specifically instructed believers that it was not necessary (Galatians 5:1-6 & 6:15).

As I said~ Old law was nailed at the cross. So no christian today that lives by the new law, abides by the old.

[Rhiannon]

WHOA! I must admit that I'm not a Bible reader but am STUNNED to learn that these verses are actually in The Bible. It's quite shocking, actually. To clear up some of my own ignorance....Is what you're saying Dave is that "Christians" don't recognize The Old Testament and that only Jewish people do??? Or is it just certain factions of Christianity that don't recognize this nonsense?

Christians don't and historically never have followed the law as described in the Old Testament, though there are very few who say you must still follow the Jewish law. However, it's very clear while reading the New Testament that because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, he fulfilled the Old Testament law. Christians live according to Jesus' teachings, not the law. Romans 6:14 says "You are not under the law but under grace". The Apostle Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to return to the law as a way to please God (Galatians 3:1-3). Also, under Jewish law, men were required to be circumcised but Paul specifically instructed believers that it was not necessary (Galatians 5:1-6 & 6:15).

As I said~ Old law was nailed at the cross. So no christian today that lives by the new law, abides by the old.

Right... but I think it's included in the spirit of "knowing where you're going is embracing where you've been". Most of the professors I had lent that reasoning to it's inclusion as a Holy Book.

[artist4perry]

Would be nice if he read it in context. And remember that was old testement time, not how we are told to live by Jesus today. As far as Jewish people go, isn't your wife Jewish?

I can't imagine "context" altering that content much, but okay. And yes, my wife is indeed Jewish (by birth). That said, she's about as religious as I am, meaning not remotely. Because my wife describes herself as Agnostic, I'm confident she wouldn't know the answer to this question. Hell, she doesn't even know when Yom Kippur is (which I believe is the holiest day on the Jewish calendar). We seem to have a lot knowledgeable people here, as it pertains to religion, so I was hoping someone could clear up my confusion between The New and Old Testaments.


John from Boston

Yom Kippur is in just under two weeks (just saying).

The confusion is easy: for Jews, anything written after (i.e. the Gospel) by Christians (well, some were still Jews at the time) the Five Books of Moses is not part of the Torah (bible, whatever you want to call it in your religion). There are of course the commentaries and such which are part of Jewish canon, but anything referring to Jesus is not part of Judaism. The New Testament extends the Old Testament, and in some cases, has needed (depending on your variation of Christianity) needed a bit of an update/explanation from the church since it's 100% proven and false that the Jews killed Jesus. To Jews, no one is refuting he existed as a human, but the Romans killed him. Some of the bad mojo in the New Testament and its interpretation has led to some ugliness in the past. That's the simplest explanation.

Thank you for your insight. I know a little about the Jewish religion but not much. Evil men killed Jesus. Not one nationality. I hold no grudge to anyone over it. Many do not even realize he was born Jewish. That would be like saying if a gang of white men killed a man, that all white men kill. Stupid concept. Only those men, chose to do evil, therefore only those evil men did the killing.

[RossValoryRocks]

I know you mean well, but if he is curious, I will answer his questions. If I feel he is abusive, I will say as much. I feel he has alot of turmoil over this subject. Maybe something he needs to work out. I am so thankful to you for looking out for those of us of faith through these discussions. I am a big girl, and I will answer what I know. What I don't I will say as much. My faith has never been swayed because someone doubts the existance of God. It gives me strength and that is what matters. If they cannot see out of the "box" as I said, I am not angry. Be at peace my friend. I bear no ill will to someone with curiosity.

He isn't curious, he is being an ass and doing so with purpose.

He called God an "imaginary being" thereby implying we are all being delusional.

That's not being curious, that is being deliberately antagonistic.

He no more wants to know God than you want to abandon God.

[RedWingFan]

I know you mean well, but if he is curious, I will answer his questions. If I feel he is abusive, I will say as much. I feel he has alot of turmoil over this subject. Maybe something he needs to work out. I am so thankful to you for looking out for those of us of faith through these discussions. I am a big girl, and I will answer what I know. What I don't I will say as much. My faith has never been swayed because someone doubts the existance of God. It gives me strength and that is what matters. If they cannot see out of the "box" as I said, I am not angry. Be at peace my friend. I bear no ill will to someone with curiosity.

He isn't curious, he is being an ass and doing so with purpose.

He called God an "imaginary being" thereby implying we are all being delusional.

That's not being curious, that is being deliberately antagonistic.

He no more wants to know God than you want to abandon God.

What do you expect? He's in Belgium. I'd be angry enough at God to deny him too!

[artist4perry]

I know you mean well, but if he is curious, I will answer his questions. If I feel he is abusive, I will say as much. I feel he has alot of turmoil over this subject. Maybe something he needs to work out. I am so thankful to you for looking out for those of us of faith through these discussions. I am a big girl, and I will answer what I know. What I don't I will say as much. My faith has never been swayed because someone doubts the existance of God. It gives me strength and that is what matters. If they cannot see out of the "box" as I said, I am not angry. Be at peace my friend. I bear no ill will to someone with curiosity.

He isn't curious, he is being an ass and doing so with purpose.

He called God an "imaginary being" thereby implying we are all being delusional.

That's not being curious, that is being deliberately antagonistic.

He no more wants to know God than you want to abandon God.

But yet I am no worse for the wear? I am fine.

[artist4perry]

WHOA! I must admit that I'm not a Bible reader but am STUNNED to learn that these verses are actually in The Bible. It's quite shocking, actually. To clear up some of my own ignorance....Is what you're saying Dave is that "Christians" don't recognize The Old Testament and that only Jewish people do??? Or is it just certain factions of Christianity that don't recognize this nonsense?

Christians don't and historically never have followed the law as described in the Old Testament, though there are very few who say you must still follow the Jewish law. However, it's very clear while reading the New Testament that because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, he fulfilled the Old Testament law. Christians live according to Jesus' teachings, not the law. Romans 6:14 says "You are not under the law but under grace". The Apostle Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to return to the law as a way to please God (Galatians 3:1-3). Also, under Jewish law, men were required to be circumcised but Paul specifically instructed believers that it was not necessary (Galatians 5:1-6 & 6:15).

As I said~ Old law was nailed at the cross. So no christian today that lives by the new law, abides by the old.

Right... but I think it's included in the spirit of "knowing where you're going is embracing where you've been". Most of the professors I had lent that reasoning to it's inclusion as a Holy Book.

Great insight Rhi!

[StyxCollector]

Thank you for your insight. I know a little about the Jewish religion but not much. Evil men killed Jesus. Not one nationality. I hold no grudge to anyone over it. Many do not even realize he was born Jewish. That would be like saying if a gang of white men killed a man, that all white men kill. Stupid concept. Only those men, chose to do evil, therefore only those evil men did the killing.

No worries. I mean, any Christian (and insert your variation of Christianity here - Catholicism, Baptist, Orthodox, whatever) who doesn't understand that the religion's roots are squarely planted in Judaism is simply uninformed. Things diverged with the Gospels and such. Even within Judiasm, one of the nice things about it is that it leaves a lot to interpretation, and clearly there are variations within Judiasm (reconstructionist, conservative, reform, orthodox, etc.) as there are within Christianity.

And for the record - it's always been a bone of contention with many I know that people think Jews are a nationality. Judiasm is a religion and people can be Jewish. Israeli is a nationality. Being Jewish is no different than someone from anyplace on Earth with a religion (or not).

[Rhiannon]

He isn't curious, he is being an ass and doing so with purpose.

He called God an "imaginary being" thereby implying we are all being delusional.

That's not being curious, that is being deliberately antagonistic.

He no more wants to know God than you want to abandon God.

I think it's a part of a new fad of thinking, especially centered to Europe. No disrespect, just an observation after having met many "intelligent" "hip" "modern" whatevers. It's cool to them to embrace their Atheist BELIEFS... *guess what, if you're Atheist, it's still a belief system! HAAAA*

And what's cooler is flaunting that "I'm so fucking smart" attitude into their conversational engagements with those who are theistic. Keith does the same damn thing. Iiiiiiii, being the tolerant one can accept that and let him rant while I zone out to the TV. But, yeah, in anycase... Atheists tend to be smug and arrogant because to them they have it all figured out because they used simple logic and "fact" which are (for the most part) still mere scientific theories. Eh... to each their own, I guess.

I see both sides (science and faith) as being the same thing. To me, they prove each other. But, that'd take too long to go into why.

[iLex]

1. If this is all there is, who cares if it hurts us as a species? It's not going to matter in the end anyway.

But it matters now Dave! These are extremely interesting times we live in. I try to enjoy it as much as I can.

You're dead and gone and it doesn't make any difference what you did while you were alive.

Of course it does. What you do today will determine the face of the planet tomorrow. We're all part of this complex whole and we can at least try to change it for the better, not for yourself but for future generations.

You didn't answer the question...Please do not play politician and avoid the answer. Thanks.

I didn't avoid anything, I did answer it. Anyway, I would rather see kids grow up in a civilized, save and stable society.
What I think you are aiming at is that an atheist life is senseless, not? The sense of life is the joy of life itself.

[RedWingFan]

BTW, my fair question is still standing...
How did the very first matter appear on its own?
No one? Why not?

Ask a Darwinist how the complexities of the human eye evolved and they'll tell you.

"Well it's believed that it started with a collection of light sensitive cells.."

Where did the light sensitive cells come from?

You won't get an answer.

[S2M]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

[Rhiannon]

BTW, my fair question is still standing...
How did the very first matter appear on its own?
No one? Why not?

Ask a Darwinist how the complexities of the human eye evolved and they'll tell you.

"Well it's believed that it started with a collection of light sensitive cells.."

Where did the light sensitive cells come from?

You won't get an answer.

The layer of primordial sludge closest to the sunlight?

[Rhiannon]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

Have you ever been to the other side of the Universe? Is there another side to the Universe? No, don't know? ...There's a LOT we "don't know" that we just have to accept there are somethings that we just won't ever know. Which leaves open a HUGE chasm of possibility.

[S2M]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

Have you ever been to the other side of the Universe? Is there another side to the Universe? No, don't know? ...There's a LOT we "don't know" that we just have to accept there are somethings that we just won't ever know. Which leaves open a HUGE chasm of possibility.

As a matter of fact I HAVE been to the other side of the universe. I was having the best sex ever with this one girl, and I SWEAR I saw god.....He looked alot like Barry Sanders.

[Rhiannon]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

Have you ever been to the other side of the Universe? Is there another side to the Universe? No, don't know? ...There's a LOT we "don't know" that we just have to accept there are somethings that we just won't ever know. Which leaves open a HUGE chasm of possibility.

As a matter of fact I HAVE been to the other side of the universe. I was having the best sex ever with this one girl, and I SWEAR I saw god.....He looked alot like Barry Sanders.

So what you're saying is, you think of Barry Sanders when you're having sex?

[S2M]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

Have you ever been to the other side of the Universe? Is there another side to the Universe? No, don't know? ...There's a LOT we "don't know" that we just have to accept there are somethings that we just won't ever know. Which leaves open a HUGE chasm of possibility.

As a matter of fact I HAVE been to the other side of the universe. I was having the best sex ever with this one girl, and I SWEAR I saw god.....He looked alot like Barry Sanders.

So what you're saying is, you think of Barry Sanders when you're having sex?

Damn.....right upside the dome. Damn you, Rhi.....

[Rhiannon]

Then I'll throw back atcha: Who made god? OWNED!

Have you ever been to the other side of the Universe? Is there another side to the Universe? No, don't know? ...There's a LOT we "don't know" that we just have to accept there are somethings that we just won't ever know. Which leaves open a HUGE chasm of possibility.

As a matter of fact I HAVE been to the other side of the universe. I was having the best sex ever with this one girl, and I SWEAR I saw god.....He looked alot like Barry Sanders.

So what you're saying is, you think of Barry Sanders when you're having sex?

Damn.....right upside the dome. Damn you, Rhi.....

Yeah. PWND!!

[Don]

BTW, my fair question is still standing...
How did the very first matter appear on its own?
No one? Why not?

Ask a Darwinist how the complexities of the human eye evolved and they'll tell you.

"Well it's believed that it started with a collection of light sensitive cells.."

Where did the light sensitive cells come from?

You won't get an answer.

I don't know where those cells came from. I believe there is a creator that began everything. What I don't believe is that there is an evil angel that pretended to be a snake and because a woman bit into a piece of fruit the troubles started. As smug as atheists are in their beliefs aren't Christians the same, saying look at this book, it has all the answers. We all agree the universe is a wonderful complex place. But I think the bible is the same as a child writing an essay on nuclear physics. A warm and fuzzy attempt at wrapping everything up in a neat little package with no proofs to back it. Can we prove that Jesus rose from the dead? Besides hearsay in a book, no. But of course on the other hand, Can we prove there is NOT a divine creator? NO. I believe something created us, I just don't subscribe to the standard religions. if you find comfort in your beliefs I'm happy for you but
for me the Bible's of the world are nothing but attempts at explaining something that can't be explained at this point in our evolution. Science is in the the same boat but answer this. if your child has polio and you have the choice to pray or inoculate, which one do you do if you can only chose one? Which one has a better chance of making the child well? In that instance I'll go with science.

[RedWingFan]

if your child has polio and you have the choice to pray or inoculate, which one do you do if you can only chose one? Which one has a better chance of making the child well? In that instance I'll go with science.

IF is for children.
You can do both.
We'll all have to account for ourselves. That eases my mind.

[Don]

if your child has polio and you have the choice to pray or inoculate, which one do you do if you can only chose one? Which one has a better chance of making the child well? In that instance I'll go with science.

IF is for children.
You can do both.
We'll all have to account for ourselves. That eases my mind.

What part eases your mind?

[artist4perry]

BTW, my fair question is still standing...
How did the very first matter appear on its own?
No one? Why not?

Ask a Darwinist how the complexities of the human eye evolved and they'll tell you.

"Well it's believed that it started with a collection of light sensitive cells.."

Where did the light sensitive cells come from?

You won't get an answer.

I don't know where those cells came from. I believe there is a creator that began everything. What I don't believe is that there is an evil angel that pretended to be a snake and because a woman bit into a piece of fruit the troubles started. As smug as atheists are in their beliefs aren't Christians the same, saying look at this book, it has all the answers. We all agree the universe is a wonderful complex place. But I think the bible is the same as a child writing an essay on nuclear physics. A warm and fuzzy attempt at wrapping everything up in a neat little package with no proofs to back it. Can we prove that Jesus rose from the dead? Besides hearsay in a book, no. But of course on the other hand, Can we prove there is NOT a divine creator? NO. I believe something created us, I just don't subscribe to the standard religions. if you find comfort in your beliefs I'm happy for you but
for me the Bible's of the world are nothing but attempts at explaining something that can't be explained at this point in our evolution. Science is in the the same boat but answer this. if your child has polio and you have the choice to pray or inoculate, which one do you do if you can only chose one? Which one has a better chance of making the child well? In that instance I'll go with science.

Ok where to start on this one, boy you guys have been busy while I went to pick up my son at school! LOL! First off I could care less if you ever pick up that dusty Bible off the shelf or not. That falls under choice. I have not tried to convert anyone on this thread, just answered questions as best as I can. I am not trying to make anyone feel inferior, stupid, delusional, or wrong for any belief. Atheism is a belief, Rhi got that right. They can be everything she described and then some. If someone is a christian and they are trying to force you tc christianity then they are not being good christians. They might gently share it with you,or discuss religion with you, but you should never feel forced. Otherwise it is not true faith that you will have. I am just as comfortable Gunbot of you believing in your way, as iLEX beleiving his way. But just because I have faith does not mean I am a "hazzard to my species". I find that so laughable. As far as I am concerned I do believe in some science, just not the part they cannot prove. I would inoculate against Polio. I have a doctor. I have had surgery. So that too is silly. If someone in a nutty sect decides to let their child die when there could be life saving medicine, my question would be, don't you think God made us intelligent enough to figure out how to heal some diseases? So that would not apply to my beliefs at all.