The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[The_Noble_Cause]

he never said that you liar

I really don't know why this is so hard to imagine.
We are talking about John McCain, right?
Even his Republican colleagues are on record about his fiery cuss-ladden outbursts.

[RossValoryRocks]

Original quote please from a reputable source. NOT Cliff Schecter...or whatever his name is...


Otherwise it's no different than me saying, "Wow, Obama juts stopped beating his wife! Didn't you know?"

My statement would be just as valid.

I thought this was common knowledge.
Stories of McCain's temper and ribald sense of humor are legendary.

Nope just Cliff Schecter says it in his book, and he doesn't name any sources other than to say 3 witnesses or something.

McCain does have a temper though I will grant you that.

[Lula]

TNC will find it. I saw it as well on many sites. Cindy almost walked off the campaign. He did call her a ****.

It comes from Cliff Schecter's book...but no one else is rushing to back the asshat up.

LOL- I kind of like the passion-





John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "shitheads," "assholes" and in at least one case "a fucking jerk."...

Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, also let me in on another incident involving McCain's intemperateness. In his 1992 Senate bid, McCain was joined on the campaign trail by his wife, Cindy, as well as campaign aide Doug Cole and consultant Wes Gullett. At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c unt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.

[Lula]

he never said that you liar

I really don't know why this is so hard to imagine.
We are talking about John McCain, right?
Even his Republican colleagues are on record about his fiery cuss-ladden outbursts.

Liz, you need to open your fuckin eyes. It's all over the place. " My God, a republican called his wife a c unt?!"

Um, yep, he sure as Hell did. You, like Sarah, are way in over your head here. Either buck up, get some facts, or shut it. To call TNC a liar when he clearly is fucked up on your part.

[RossValoryRocks]

TNC will find it. I saw it as well on many sites. Cindy almost walked off the campaign. He did call her a ****.

It comes from Cliff Schecter's book...but no one else is rushing to back the asshat up.

LOL- I kind of like the passion-





John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "shitheads," "assholes" and in at least one case "a fucking jerk."...

Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, also let me in on another incident involving McCain's intemperateness. In his 1992 Senate bid, McCain was joined on the campaign trail by his wife, Cindy, as well as campaign aide Doug Cole and consultant Wes Gullett. At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c unt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.

Yeah...anonymous reporters...VALID source there...hell a person writing a high school term paper would be failed for citing sources like that.

[The_Noble_Cause]

With no sources to back it up.

None that would jeopardize their condition of anonymity, correct.

[strangegrey]

Well, I somewhat disagree with TNC and Dave. Not one of us here know anything at all about this fuckin bailout and what it all entails. Hell, there are no mre than 5 people in these United States who really grasp it all.

So you guys say "no" to a bailout? We can't have Wall Street Bankrupt or not functioning. Regardless of the corruption at hand, it is times like this the US Gov't can and has played the key role in a domestic fiasco.

Not one of us here can say for certain whether the bailout was good or bad.

well, some issues here.

The bailout bills (both the ammended one and the previous unsuccessful one) are free and fairly easy for anyone to read....with one caveat. Both the first bill and the law have a section relating to investigating SFAS 157 and 'mark to market' accounting. The section is poorly written and was obviously done by someone who has very little knowledge of accounting or the powers that the SEC has under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Such language has no business being in any bill signed into law, but definitely not one of this magnitude. But that's another discussion....

Regardless, the point I'm making is that reading the bailing and even understanding the bailout's intentions (misdirected or not) is easy to do.


The *problem* is understanding whether or not the bailout will have the desired effect. In order for someone to have that kind of understanding, one has to have a very clear and exact understanding of how this crisis happened in the first place. To that point, I will submit to you that the number is even less than 5 persons in the world that have a full picture of what happened.

That will likely (or maybe not) be revealed in the years to come.


We're all entitled to our opinions....I for one, do *not* believe in throwing 700 billion dollars into the market right now. I dont think it's going to have a lasting effect. I equate this to refilling a fish tank before you patch up the holes. It's wasteful and idiotic...and this reeks of an effort of throwing money at a problem to see if it solves it.

I am also sick and fucking tired of Congress passing law requested by Bush under the guise of 'emergency.' Given past history, my distrust of Bush and Secretary Paulson's caveat in the first bill under Section 8....it smelled to high hell of an effort to hoodwink congress into handing over 700 billion and using the money for something other than it's stated purpose.


What frustrates me about this issue, is that the majority of mortgage backed securites, including hedges, derivatives and credit default swaps would *not* be toxic if mortages were secured. This might seem like a very simplistic view of this...but why the fuck can't the government spend a lot less money taking aim at struggling mortgages, perhaps through restructuring, small bailouts, rate adjustments, etc. If you shore up the troubled mortgages, you actually strengthen the market and the financial instruments that are bundling these mortgages.

One democrat in congress suggested this very thing....IIRC, his name is Kusinich...and it's a plan that could help "Main street" far more than throwing 700 billion at wall street.


Then, once mortgages are saved, you let Wall street fucking normalize on its own. It wont be pretty...and it might very well be ugly for a while....some companies will fail....but, fucking Darwinism comes into play here. The world needs ditch diggers too. Some companies shouldn't be bailed out. They should be allowed to die. The end result is not another bubble created by washington's desperate need to stave off another recession. When the market finally comes back...it's healthy. Not paper healthy.

[RedWingFan]

Did you all just watch the Obama speech this morning(on all the cable news networks?) MASTERFUL, inspiring,
and proposed creative immediate fixes for the middle class economic crisis, including no capital gains tax on small businesses and tax credits to companies that hire Americans (for each hire, a bigger credit!!) and more.

I found myself on my feet, in my own house, applauding.
And at the end he actually brought me to tears, and I've never cried for a political speech before.
I actually was thinking that if McCain could've heard the speech he would secretly vote for Obama, his proposals were THAT ON TARGET and the speech was THAT GOOD. If only he were President today!

He said he was calling on Congress to begin the necessasry legislation to implement his proposals immediately, but if that didn't happen, he would do it DAY 1 of an OBAMA PRESIDENCY.
You want to feel better about the future of this country? Try to catch a repeat of his speech, in full!
He isn't just any candidate for President. He has the potential to be one of the BEST WE"VE EVER HAD!

UNBELIEVABLE

Jim Jones had a fucking field day with goofs like you.

Post of the day!

[Lula]

Frank, I was speaking of the problem at hand, not the bill itself, which is truly fucking impossible to understand. I read the jist of the bill, but the problem is what nobody really knows inside and out.

[Lula]

Typical Obama supporters

How do you know they are Obama backers? You ask them personally?

[RossValoryRocks]

With no sources to back it up.

None that would jeopardize their condition of anonymity, correct.

Anonymous sources are not valid. I can invent 3 anonymous sources that say you are secretly a McCain operative.

No again, look at my whole statement, Cliff Schecter has a vested interest in the controversy. So I wouldn't trust his sources without names and dates and all such things to make them valid.

[Lula]

Post of the day!

Oh good, you're here too. It was too easy kicking Stu and FF's sorry asses. You will at least provide some resistance, probably along the likes of the relaxed asshole of George Michael.

[strangegrey]

Frank, I was speaking of the problem at hand, not the bill itself, which is truly fucking impossible to understand. I read the jist of the bill, but the problem is what nobody really knows inside and out.

Totally agree with you!

[S2M]

With no sources to back it up.

None that would jeopardize their condition of anonymity, correct.

Anonymous sources are not valid. I can invent 3 anonymous sources that say you are secretly a McCain operative.

No again, look at my whole statement, Cliff Schecter has a vested interest in the controversy. So I wouldn't trust his sources without names and dates and all such things to make them valid.

Stu, as you know....I've said it before....

Citations DO NOT strengthen an argument. Well, at least *I* don't think they do.

Whatever happened to original thought?

[RossValoryRocks]

Post of the day!

Oh good, you're here too. It was too easy kicking Stu and FF's sorry asses. You will at least provide some resistance, probably along the likes of the relaxed asshole of George Michael.

Do you REALLY want me to start on you Dean?

I am leaving personal shit out of this, but one more personal remark toward me and it's on.

Consider yourself warned. I am not in the mood to have to try and drag me through the mud, and I am not kidding.

[Tito]

This spells it out pretty good. Note I can't stand Dick Morris.

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2008/10/ ... /#more-458

[The_Noble_Cause]

Anonymous sources are not valid.

Tell that to Woodward, Bernstein, and Deep Throat.
True or false, this story is not a deal breaker.

[RossValoryRocks]

With no sources to back it up.

None that would jeopardize their condition of anonymity, correct.

Anonymous sources are not valid. I can invent 3 anonymous sources that say you are secretly a McCain operative.

No again, look at my whole statement, Cliff Schecter has a vested interest in the controversy. So I wouldn't trust his sources without names and dates and all such things to make them valid.

Stu, as you know....I've said it before....

Citations DO NOT strengthen an argument. Well, at least *I* don't think they do.

Whatever happened to original thought?

Because without independent varification and outside support anything said is merely opinion, and an opinion cannot be proved nor disproved thereby rendering a debate over such an exercise in futility.

[peridactyl]

Did you all just watch the Obama speech this morning(on all the cable news networks?) MASTERFUL, inspiring,
and proposed creative immediate fixes for the middle class economic crisis, including no capital gains tax on small businesses and tax credits to companies that hire Americans (for each hire, a bigger credit!!) and more.

I found myself on my feet, in my own house, applauding.
And at the end he actually brought me to tears, and I've never cried for a political speech before.
I actually was thinking that if McCain could've heard the speech he would secretly vote for Obama, his proposals were THAT ON TARGET and the speech was THAT GOOD. If only he were President today!

He said he was calling on Congress to begin the necessasry legislation to implement his proposals immediately, but if that didn't happen, he would do it DAY 1 of an OBAMA PRESIDENCY.
You want to feel better about the future of this country? Try to catch a repeat of his speech, in full!
He isn't just any candidate for President. He has the potential to be one of the BEST WE"VE EVER HAD!

UNBELIEVABLE

Jim Jones had a fucking field day with goofs like you.

Post of the day!

I take it you didn't wwatch the speech? But have an opinion on it anyway?

[SteveForever]

he never said that you liar

I really don't know why this is so hard to imagine.
We are talking about John McCain, right?
Even his Republican colleagues are on record about his fiery cuss-ladden outbursts.

Liz, you need to open your fuckin eyes. It's all over the place. " My God, a republican called his wife a c unt?!"

Um, yep, he sure as Hell did. You, like Sarah, are way in over your head here. Either buck up, get some facts, or shut it. To call TNC a liar when he clearly is fucked up on your part.

no one has proof he said that and the thing you posted from Heart is also phony,
you are all hot air Dean, what kind of taxes did you pay last year? in over my head....whatever, you
do not want me to post things I know about you....

[RedWingFan]

Post of the day!

Oh good, you're here too. It was too easy kicking Stu and FF's sorry asses. You will at least provide some resistance, probably along the likes of the relaxed asshole of George Michael.

How do you get him to relax?

[conversationpc]

I have NEVER lost a debate...

[RossValoryRocks]

Anonymous sources are not valid.

Tell that to Woodward, Bernstein, and Deep Throat.
True or false, this story is not a deal breaker.

Different animals, Woodward and Bernstein had no motivation other than to get to the truth of the matter, Cliff Schecter has a vested MONETARY interest in creating controversy.

And quit parsing my statements. Quote the whole thing and respond to it please, otherwise shit gets taken out of context.

[RedWingFan]

I have NEVER lost a debate...

Seconded!! Dumbass!!!

[RossValoryRocks]

he never said that you liar

I really don't know why this is so hard to imagine.
We are talking about John McCain, right?
Even his Republican colleagues are on record about his fiery cuss-ladden outbursts.

Liz, you need to open your fuckin eyes. It's all over the place. " My God, a republican called his wife a c unt?!"

Um, yep, he sure as Hell did. You, like Sarah, are way in over your head here. Either buck up, get some facts, or shut it. To call TNC a liar when he clearly is fucked up on your part.

no one has proof he said that and the thing you posted from Heart is also phony,
you are all hot air Dean, what kind of taxes did you pay last year? in over my head....whatever, you
do not want me to post things I know about you....

Ok I admonished Dean about not getting personal, none of us should..so I am asking for the same here from you...can we all just stick to the issues and debate those please?

[conversationpc]

FOLEY REPLACEMENT GETS HIS OWN SEX SCANDAL: Congressman's $121,000 Payoff to Alleged Mistress...

Congressman's $121,000 Payoff to Alleged Mistress

Tim Mahoney Elected to Remove 'Ethical Cloud' of His Disgraced Predecessor, Mark Foley

By EMMA SCHWARTZ, RHONDA SCHWARTZ, and VIC WALTER

Oct. 13, 2008
70 comments

West Palm Beach Congressman Tim Mahoney (D-FL), whose predecessor resigned in the wake of a sex scandal, agreed to a $121,000 payment to a former mistress who worked on his staff and was threatening to sue him, according to current and former members of his staff who have been briefed on the settlement, which involved Mahoney and his campaign committee.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5997043&page=1

But you know the Republicans are MORE corrupt, right?

[Saint John]

This spells it out pretty good. Note I can't stand Dick Morris.

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2008/10/ ... /#more-458

Barack Obama should have run screaming at the sight of William Ayers and his wife, Bernadette Dohrn. Ayers has admitted bombing the U.S. Capitol building and the Pentagon, and his wife was sent to prison for failing to cooperate in solving the robbery of a Brink’s armored car in which two police officers were killed. Far from remorse, Ayers told The New York Times in September 2001 that he “wished he could have done more.”

Ayers only avoided conviction when the evidence against him turned out to be contained in illegally obtained wiretaps by the FBI. He was, in fact, guilty as sin.

That Obama should ally himself with Ayers is almost beyond understanding. The former terrorist had not repented of his views and the education grants he got were expressly designed to further them.

So let’s sum up Obama’s Chicago connections. His chief financial supporter was Tony Rezko, now on his way to federal prison. His spiritual adviser and mentor was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, of “God damn America” fame. And the guy who got him his only administrative job and put him in charge of doling out $50 million is William Ayers, a terrorist who was a domestic Osama bin Laden in his youth.

[SteveForever]

he never said that you liar

I really don't know why this is so hard to imagine.
We are talking about John McCain, right?
Even his Republican colleagues are on record about his fiery cuss-ladden outbursts.

Liz, you need to open your fuckin eyes. It's all over the place. " My God, a republican called his wife a c unt?!"

Um, yep, he sure as Hell did. You, like Sarah, are way in over your head here. Either buck up, get some facts, or shut it. To call TNC a liar when he clearly is fucked up on your part.

no one has proof he said that and the thing you posted from Heart is also phony,
you are all hot air Dean, what kind of taxes did you pay last year? in over my head....whatever, you
do not want me to post things I know about you....

Ok I admonished Dean about not getting personal, none of us should..so I am asking for the same here from you...can we all just stick to the issues and debate those please?

Okay, sorry.... carry on...

[peridactyl]

Obama Expands Economic Plans
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By JACKIE CALMES and JEFF ZELENY
Published: October 13, 2008
TOLEDO — Senator Barack Obama on Monday expanded his economic platform, including proposals to spur new jobs, to give Americans penalty-free access to retirement savings to help them through the downturn, to urge a 90-day moratorium on home foreclosures and to lend money to strapped local and state governments.

Senator Barack Obama called on Americans to embrace a new “ethic of responsibility” during a speech in Toledo on Monday.

We need to give people the breathing room they need to get back on their feet,” Mr. Obama said in an afternoon speech here at the Sea Gate Convention Centre before a crowd of more than 3,000 people.

Mr. Obama called on Congress to double by another $25 billion the government loan guarantees for automakers and to temporarily eliminate taxes on unemployment benefits.

Campaign advisers said those steps and several others could be taken before January through current laws or by the Democratic-controlled Congress acting in a lame-duck session.

Mr. Obama outlined his revised plan in Toledo, a struggling city that is representative of the economic crisis and the battle for industrial-belt swing states that could determine the winner of the Nov. 4 election. He is spending three days in northwestern Ohio, sequestered with an advisers to prepare for the third presidential debate on Wednesday.

In a 30-minute address here, Mr. Obama also called on Americans to embrace a new “ethic of responsibility.” His speech was supplemented with visions of optimism, but conceded that tough times faced the nation in the coming months and years.

“I won’t pretend this will be easy,” Mr. Obama said. “George Bush has dug a deep hole for us. It’s going to take a while for us to dig our way out. We’re going to have to set priorities as never before.”

Senator John McCain, his Republican rival, also gave an economic speech in Virginia Beach, Va., with no new policy prescriptions, having rejected his advisers’ options over the weekend as too gimmicky, according to one Republican close to the campaign. He offered a glum sense of the nation’s economic outlook, bracing people for the challenges ahead.

“These are hard times, my friends,” Mr. McCain said. “Our economy is in crisis. Financial markets are collapsing. Credit is drying up. Your savings are in danger and your retirement is at risk. Jobs are disappearing.”

While the Obama campaign billed the speech here as a major economic address, about three-fourths of the proposals had already been announced. But the handful of new plans were intended to highlight how he would immediately help middle-class Americans — if not his own political standing by reassuring voters he is on top of the crisis.

“At a time when the ups and downs of the stock market have rarely been so unpredictable and dramatic,” Mr. Obama said, “we also need to give families and retirees more flexibility and security when it comes to their retirement savings.”

Mr. Obama reprimanded his audience when people started jeering at the mention of Mr. McCain’s name, declaring: “We don’t need that. We just need to vote.”

Mr. Obama praised Mr. McCain’s proposal to waive the rules that penalize retiree withdrawals from 401(k)’s, saying: “I want to give credit where credit is due.”

Before Mr. Obama spoke here, aides announced the highlights of his speech. They did so after word had spread on Sunday evening that Mr. McCain would not be presenting new economic proposals, as had been suggested by some aides.

The Obama campaign was attempting to maintain its hold on the economic message that has lifted the Democratic candidate in recent weeks.

“We have the advantage of sharing ideas that are consistent with the ideas we have shared before,” David Axelrod, the campaign’s chief strategist, said in an interview. New polls suggest mounting economic anxieties among voters are fueling Mr. Obama’s growing lead in many polls against Mr. McCain.

The main new proposals would:

— for the next two years, give businesses a $3,000 income-tax credit for each new full-time employee they hire above the number in their current workforce;

— allow savers with tax-favored Individual Retirement Accounts and 401(k)’s to withdraw 15 percent of those retirement savings, up to a maximum of $10,000, without paying a tax penalty as the law currently requires for withdrawals before age 59 and a half;

— bar financial institutions that take advantage of the Treasury’s rescue plan from foreclosing on the mortgages of any homeowners who are making “good-faith efforts” to make payments;

— direct the Treasury and the Federal Reserve to create a temporary facility for loans to state and local governments, similar to the Fed’s new arrangement to loan corporations money by buying their commercial paper, which are the I.O.U.s that help businesses with daily operating expenses like payrolls.

Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for Mr. McCain, criticized the Obama plan as one that would raise taxes on Americans, which he said would have “a devastating effect.”

“Interestingly, Barack Obama called a moratorium on foreclosures, which is a policy he had previously labeled disastrous when it was proposed by a political opponent,” Mr. Bounds said, referring to a plan proposed by Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. “Proving yet again that Barack Obama’s positions on the issues are tied to elections, not solutions for the American people.”

During his remarks here, Mr. Obama gently scolded all Americans for “living beyond their means — from Wall Street to Washington to even some on Main Street.” His audience of supporters applauded as he said it was a moment in the nation’s history to pull together and sacrifice.

“We’ve lived through an era of easy money, in which we were allowed and even encouraged to spend without limits; to take out as many credit cards as possible, to take out as many credit cards as possible, to borrow instead of save,” Mr. Obama said. “Now, I know that in an age of declining wages and skyrocketing costs, for many folks this was not a choice but a necessity just to keep up, I understand that.”

“But we now know how dangerous that can be,” he continued. “Once we get past the present emergency, which requires immediate new investments, we have to break that cycle of debt. Our long-term future requires that we do what’s necessary to scale down our deficits, grow wages and encourage personal savings again.”

[peridactyl]

The new Washington Post/ABC News national poll puts John McCain behind Barack Obama by 10 points -- his biggest deficit in the survey since the general election began in June.

But, that's not the worst news in the poll for McCain. A detailed look inside the poll shows just how toxic the national political environment has become for Republicans and suggests that McCain's attempts to deprecate Obama and portray him as a risky pick have, to date, backfired.

To wit:

* Just eight percent of the national sample believe the country is headed in the right direction while a stunning 90 percent believe it is off in the wrong direction. EIGHT PERCENT!

* Twenty-three percent of voters approve of the job that President Bush is doing -- his lowest rating ever in the Post poll and an approval score that rivals the lowly showing by President Harry Truman in a 1952 Gallup poll.

* Obama's favorable rating are rising (!) while McCain's are faltering. Nearly two-thirds of voters (64 percent) view Obama favorably in the latest poll while 33 percent view him unfavorably. In a September Post poll, Obama's fav/unfav was at 58/36. Compare that to McCain's favorable ratings, which slipped from 59 percent in September to 52 percent now, and his unfavorable ratings, which rose from 36 percent last month to 45 percent now.

* Obama has substantial edges over McCain when voters are asked which candidate is better equipped to handle the issues of the day. That includes a 16-point edge on the economy and a 29-point margin on health care -- the two issues nearly six in ten voters cite as most critical in the fall election. McCain's lone advantage over Obama comes on the issue of terrorism. Forty-nine percent of Americans believe the Arizona senator is better equipped to handle that issue while 43 percent name Obama.

* Nearly seven in ten voters believe Obama is "mainly" addressing the issues while just 26 percent say he is attacking his opponent. McCain, on the other hand, is seen as "mainly" attacking his rival by six in ten voters while just 35 percent said he is focused on issues.

* Fifty-five percent of the voters believe Obama is a "safe" choice for president while 45 percent said he would be a "risky" choice. On McCain, the sample split right down the middle; 50 percent said he was a "safe" and 50 percent said he would be a "risky" pick for the White House.

That laundry list of data is a stark showcase of the tough odds that McCain faces as he seeks to turn the race around over the next 22 days.

Not only is every leading indicator pointing to this being a change election focused on economic uncertainties but the data in the Post/ABC poll also suggests that McCain's recent tactic of questioning Obama's judgment via his past associations with former Weather Underground member Bill Ayers is not working.

Given these results, it's not terribly surprising that McCain unveiled a new campaign stump speech this morning in Virginia in which he a) cast himself as the underdog b) offered a firm break with Bush and c) toned down the character attacks on Obama.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TOO BAD