The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[7 Wishes]

Nice counter argument, based entirely on your opinion

Again, show me the 95% figure you keep throwing around.

Not MY opinion, Dittohead. The opinions of the vast majority of the scientific community and EACH AND EVERY RECOGNIZED SCIENTIFIC GOVERNING BODY AND RESEARCH GROUP, BOTH NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY.

Stop the bleating. You're wrong.

[Lula]

control our money (taxes) come on, we have to pay taxes. how are we supposed to pay for some very basic necessities such as roads, bridges, libraries, to name a few?

as for global warming, i'm of the camp that believes it is man made and we have to make better choices to preserve our planet. even if it were just the natural cycle, is it so wrong to conserve and be kinder to our planet?

[MarcelJordan]

control our money (taxes) come on, we have to pay taxes. how are we supposed to pay for some very basic necessities such as roads, bridges, libraries, to name a few?

as for global warming, i'm of the camp that believes it is man made and we have to make better choices to preserve our planet. even if it were just the natural cycle, is it so wrong to conserve and be kinder to our planet?

Time Mag. had a whole issue devoted to Environmental issues called "Heros of the Environment" I would suggest reading that. Real people doing stuff to help.

[iceberg]

Nice counter argument, based entirely on your opinion

Again, show me the 95% figure you keep throwing around.

Not MY opinion, Dittohead. The opinions of the vast majority of the scientific community and EACH AND EVERY RECOGNIZED SCIENTIFIC GOVERNING BODY AND RESEARCH GROUP, BOTH NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY.

Stop the bleating. You're wrong.

bleeting goes on on both sides.

[Saint John]

Step outside the box bro,

7 Wishes is just fine being heterosexual.

[7 Wishes]

What can I say? I like women who have mastered many tongues.

[Skylorde]

Not MY opinion, Dittohead. The opinions of the vast majority of the scientific community and EACH AND EVERY RECOGNIZED SCIENTIFIC GOVERNING BODY AND RESEARCH GROUP, BOTH NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY.

Stop the bleating. You're wrong.

Still waiting for you to prove your "95% of scientists agree!!" claim.

[Skylorde]

as for global warming, i'm of the camp that believes it is man made and we have to make better choices to preserve our planet. even if it were just the natural cycle, is it so wrong to conserve and be kinder to our planet?

Actually Lula, I'm not closed to the possibility man is the cause of the planet warming. I'm just not going to jump on either bandwagon because the evidence is inconclusive at best.

I'm all for:

Recycling: Good for the planet & makes us good human beings.
Alternative energy: Reduce or eliminate dependence on foreign oil & in the long run, fossil fuels.
Nuclear energy: Like it or not, we need it. Period end of story.

What I won't do is blindly follow the lead of hypocrites like Al Gore who's resounding message is "Do as I say, not as I do". If you want to get rational people to listen to your message (referring to Al), then lead by example! Otherwise you'll end up with people like ....<ahem> ..you get the idea.

[RossValoryRocks]

control our money (taxes) come on, we have to pay taxes. how are we supposed to pay for some very basic necessities such as roads, bridges, libraries, to name a few?

as for global warming, i'm of the camp that believes it is man made and we have to make better choices to preserve our planet. even if it were just the natural cycle, is it so wrong to conserve and be kinder to our planet?

Of course we have to pay SOME taxes...but be realistic...it is a method of control.

Our taxes are out of control...by the time everything is taken out of my check...plus the sales taxes and everything I am paying a huge percentage of my money and I don't see a whole lot of return on that investment.

As for "the we have to pay taxes" part, prior to the 13th Amendment the United States got along FINE without paying income taxes.

It becomes a method of control when it gets extreme.

[RossValoryRocks]

What can I say? I like women who have mastered many tongues.

You are smart man, relatively speaking, who has mastered many tongues....A true Cunning Linguist!

[S2M]

control our money (taxes) come on, we have to pay taxes. how are we supposed to pay for some very basic necessities such as roads, bridges, libraries, to name a few?

as for global warming, i'm of the camp that believes it is man made and we have to make better choices to preserve our planet. even if it were just the natural cycle, is it so wrong to conserve and be kinder to our planet?

Of course we have to pay SOME taxes...but be realistic...it is a method of control.

Our taxes are out of control...by the time everything is taken out of my check...plus the sales taxes and everything I am paying a huge percentage of my money and I don't see a whole lot of return on that investment.

As for "the we have to pay taxes" part, prior to the 13th Amendment the United States got along FINE without paying income taxes.

It becomes a method of control when it gets extreme.

I guess you did my excercise from the other thread....

We pay EXORBINANT amount of taxes.....and get relatively NO representation....

I'd say its about time for another tea party....no?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Nuclear energy: Like it or not, we need it. Period end of story.

Nuclear sucks.
There is only so much high grade uranium ore remaining, meaning we will have to switch over to plutonium-fueled reactors at some point.
The energy intensive cycle required by it (mining, conversion, enrichment etc) contributes to greenhouse gases, rendering its capacity as a clean alternative iffy - at best.
It does precious little to displace our reliance on foreign oil, and worse yet, private industry won't foot the bill.
Every other nation doing it heaps the bill firmly on the back of the taxpayer (i.e. corporate socialism) - a convenient fact left out by every right winger who enthusiastically makes the case for it.
And what about waste?

[Lula]

13th amendment abolished slavery. we could go back to the tariff system

[RossValoryRocks]

13th amendment abolished slavery. we could go back to the tariff system

Sorry typo...16th

[iceberg]

i wish i could make a post that would make people see what i see.

i wish i had the words to say we all want the same things, just differently.

i wish we'd put the same intensity into finding a way to agree that we put into our disagreements.

[Jana]

Iceberg, nice thought. How do I say this nicely? Dream on. It ain't gonna happen in this thread, except the rare occasion.

[iceberg]

Iceberg, nice thought. How do I say this nicely? Dream on. It ain't gonna happen in this thread, except the rare occasion.

you gotta dream it before you can do it.

i'm used to dreaming. just not used to people understanding.

[The_Noble_Cause]

In the midst of lead toys, toxic produce, and a subprime meltdown ushered in part by deregulatory maneuvers, Bush is making one last push to remove consumer protections - including existing standards on our drinking water.
This article isn’t so much (another) indictment on Bush, as it is Conservatism as a whole.
At least that's how I see it.
Reagan did this crap too.
Happens every time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

[iceberg]

In the midst of lead toys, toxic produce, and a subprime meltdown ushered in part by deregulatory maneuvers, Bush is making one last push to remove consumer protections - including existing standards on our drinking water.
This article isn’t so much (another) indictment on Bush, as it is Conservatism as a whole.
At least that's how I see it.
Reagan did this crap too.
Happens every time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

it's not being conservative. that's a viewpoint much like your own. just different.
it's not about having someone to blame. but god those are fun, right? as long as someone fucked up more than me i'm ok.

i'm conservative because i'll find my own way. if i mess up, i'll pay that price.

if something, anything, happens every time it's because everytime you look for the same thing.

[The_Noble_Cause]

it's not being conservative. that's a viewpoint much like your own. just different.

No, this is actually pretty emblematic of what happens when Conservatives get elected.

[conversationpc]

it's not being conservative. that's a viewpoint much like your own. just different.

No, this is actually pretty emblematic of what happens when Conservatives get elected.

Bush is a Republican, not a conservative. It just goes to show that you're either politically ignorant or willfully untruthful.

[conversationpc]

Give it up, Dave. Please.

These researchers aren't being "paid off" to develop their scientifically proven theories. You guys always try to invalidate anything for which you don't have a counterargument. When there is such a massive worldwide consensus, you simply have nothing other than a few rogues employed by the oil industries.

Your inexplicable defense of the Big Right Machine's pathetic attempts to disprove a known fact is quite enlightening, though.

You leftists always try to invalidate any other opinion that doesn't match yours. Give it up, dude. I've shown counterargument after counterargument to the fairy-tale stuff you post and all you can usually come up with is stuff like "You're 100% wrong!!", trying to beat the opponent into submission rather than using your own brain and coming up with solid arguments. As Stu pointed out earlier, scientists worldwide are just as in bed, if not more so, with Government subsidies and grants from environmental organizations as you claim the other side is with energy industry fatcats.

Here's a blog entry from my personal blog that I posted over a year ago on this very topic...

Who Are the Real "Flat-Earthers"?

Are you a "flat earther"? By that question, I am not attempting to discern whether or not you believe the earth is indeed flat. This is an old tag applied to a new distortion, which is if you do not fall hook, line, and sinker for the idea that global warming is largely caused by man, then you must be akin to those who once believed that if you sailed far enough on the Earth's oceans, you would surely plunge over the edge to your death in the dark abyss that waits beneath.

Critics of the "flat earthers" like to equate people like me who do not worship the man-made global warming gods with superstitious pagans who don't know any better. However, I'm beginning to think that the "man-maders" have more in common with our flat earth ancestors than they claim we do. This is not a discussion of the science, considerable in my opinion, that shows that man has little or nothing to do with the recent changes in Earth's climate.

Consider the vitriol used by man-maders against those who would dare assault their global warming fortress. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a noted member of the Kennedy family and environmental activist extraordinaire, referred to people like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sean Hannity as "flat-earthers" and even "traitors" (http://www.newsbusters.org/node/13981). Isn't this the kind of rhetoric and blind faith that is supposed to be ascribed to those he refers to as "flat-earthers"?

Al Gore, politician extraordinaire and supposed man-made global warming expert, has also used such rhetoric, claiming that the cause he believes in is settled science and that there is no disagreement in the scientific community. He, of course, discounts the hundreds and perhaps thousands of climatologists, geologists, meteorologists and other acclaimed scientists who disagree with his findings. These scientists are dismissed as aberrations or, worse, paid off by energy industry fatcats who wish to plunder and destroy the earth for profit. This is, of course, not true, at least no more so than saying there are scientists who also benefit financially from environmental activist organizations.

Personally, I believe the science is far from settled. This obviously means that I am a "flat-earther" and that I want the environment to be polluted beyond repair. Far from it. I am all for cleaning up the environment where it is needed. What I am not for is subjective science that politicians like Al Gore would use to enact huge tax hikes to pay for "solutions" which no one agrees will work in the first place.

So who are the real "flat-earthers"? Considering the religious zeal and fury that is often displayed by the man-maders against those who don't follow their beliefs, I think the conclusion is rather obvious.

Taken from my blog @ http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-EI_l9OI1 ... Ryg--?cq=1

[strangegrey]

it's not being conservative. that's a viewpoint much like your own. just different.

No, this is actually pretty emblematic of what happens when Conservatives get elected.

Bush is a Republican, not a conservative. It just goes to show that you're either politically ignorant or willfully untruthful.

Dave, One could make a very clear and concise argument that Bush isn't even a republican.....and neither is McCain. There's a wealth of social issues championed by the current president and the current "republican" candidate that are not representative of true party values.

That's one of the reasons why McCain has been chasing Obama for the past 2 months. I submit that if McCain wasa true republican (leaving Dubya to his own devises) there would actually be more of a race going on.

[conversationpc]

Dave, One could make a very clear and concise argument that Bush isn't even a republican.....and neither is McCain. There's a wealth of social issues championed by the current president and the current "republican" candidate that are not representative of true party values.

That's one of the reasons why McCain has been chasing Obama for the past 2 months. I submit that if McCain wasa true republican (leaving Dubya to his own devises) there would actually be more of a race going on.

You are 100% correct.

[strangegrey]

Give it up, Dave. Please.

These researchers aren't being "paid off" to develop their scientifically proven theories. You guys always try to invalidate anything for which you don't have a counterargument. When there is such a massive worldwide consensus, you simply have nothing other than a few rogues employed by the oil industries.

Your inexplicable defense of the Big Right Machine's pathetic attempts to disprove a known fact is quite enlightening, though.

You leftists always try to invalidate any other opinion that doesn't match yours. Give it up, dude. I've shown counterargument after counterargument to the fairy-tale stuff you post and all you can usually come up with is stuff like "You're 100% wrong!!", trying to beat the opponent into submission rather than using your own brain and coming up with solid arguments. As Stu pointed out earlier, scientists worldwide are just as in bed, if not more so, with Government subsidies and grants from environmental organizations as you claim the other side is with energy industry fatcats.

Seven, why is it that the researchers and scientists that are on board with this so-called 95% majority you keep touting took 20-30 years to come around and join the party on this global warming, oh I'm sorry, Climate Change, issue? If this were truly a philanthropic issue, I would suspect that people would jump right on board and not have a problem with it. What it looks like to most skeptics, is that the people that are suddenly coming on board have been bought and paid for.

Like I said already, the environmentalist movement is hog tied to political agendas. In order for the movement to gain credibility in my eyes, and show that it truly has philanthropic motives, it needs to be seperated from it. Otherwise, it's reeks of a democratic agenda of control.

[Skylorde]

Seven, why is it that the researchers and scientists that are on board with this so-called 95% majority

Seven arrived at the "95% majority" figure himself after he tallied all global warming opinions then eliminated nearly all the ones who were either on the fence or simply disagreed with the man made global warming claim.

Convenient majority

[strangegrey]

Hey folks, *I* know what's going to happen on tuesday:



http://www.cnnbcvideo.com/index.html?nid=Z_BvguwSdfe6Xld36zbk2DM3NTYyMzE-&id=


LOL

[Jana]

Holy shit. Early voting so far has been three million in Florida. This morning already at nine o'clock people have waited two hours. Someone came at 5:30 to get there early, the line was so long it took an hour and a half. On the news, one person said it's their third time coming back because the lines have been so long. They said they expect five million more to vote between today and Tuesday. I still haven't voted. Why didn't I vote the end of last week or this week? It's only going to be worse for me now. This is going to be a nightmare; even though, of course, there will be more voting precincts open on Tuesday. But there's a lot open now in each county where I live.



Cute, Frank. Florida is such a tight race. That's why I told my sister she better get down there and vote, to cancel out her husband's Rep. vote. It could be the deciding vote.

[Enigma869]

The back and forth banter is fun, but does anyone really believe that this thing isn't decided? I'm not concerned about jinxing Obama, because I'm not a huge fan of either candidate (even though I think Obama will be a better President). When I watched the news highlights last night and saw that Obama was showing up at rallies with Bill Clinton, while that dope McCain is showing up with "Joe the Plumber" (whose name isn't Joe, and who isn't a licensed plumber, and who doesn't pay his taxes), I just know that McCain is more "toast" than Perry! The guy is done, and in my opinion, has run one of the worst campaigns that I've ever seen run in my life (by either side). It should be fun to watch the people in the McCain camp turn on Puppet Palin, by this time next week (even though it's already happening)!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

It should be fun to watch the people in the McCain camp turn on Puppet Palin, by this time next week (even though it's already happening)!

They're already doing that but, in my opinion, they wouldn't even be as close as they are if she weren't in the mix. This thing would've been over before the Republican convention.