The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:29 pm

mac will be on snl tonight. }:C)
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:29 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:http://www.conservapedia.com/Socialist

7 Wishes wrote:
treetopovskaya wrote:i just heard obama say that the maintenance worker & a ceo should be treated equally.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???



It means EXACTLY what our founding fathers intended it to mean, that's what.

Democracy isn't just for rich white guys anymore, Tree.

And "redistribution" is NOT socialism.


I'm pretty sure the "Conservapedia" isn't exactly the best source to use in an argument. However, Wikipedia does say...

The post-war social democrat governments introduced social reform and wealth redistribution via state welfare and taxation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:31 pm

hahahaa! }:C))

thanks dave!

conversationpc wrote:
treetopovskaya wrote:http://www.conservapedia.com/Socialist

7 Wishes wrote:
treetopovskaya wrote:i just heard obama say that the maintenance worker & a ceo should be treated equally.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???



It means EXACTLY what our founding fathers intended it to mean, that's what.

Democracy isn't just for rich white guys anymore, Tree.

And "redistribution" is NOT socialism.


I'm pretty sure the "Conservapedia" isn't exactly the best source to use in an argument. However, Wikipedia does say...

The post-war social democrat governments introduced social reform and wealth redistribution via state welfare and taxation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:40 pm

Well, once again...YET again...you're missing the point.

An equitable staggered tax is NOT in of itself socialism.

Short answer: the taxes on the top 5% income earners will STILL be less than under your spendocrat-in-disguise hero Ronnie Reagan.

How does it feel to ALWAYS be wrong?

Manjoo himself states that there is substantial reason that the election was stolen: Many experts have concluded that the election there strains conventional notions of what a democracy ought to look like; very little about that race was fair, clean or competent. Way back in January 2005, a panel headed by Democratic Rep. John Conyers of Michigan reported that it had found enough irregularities in Ohio to call into question the state election results and the entire presidential vote.

But whether the election was stolen or not is unimportant to Manjoo. It's all water under the bridge: Whatever his aim, RFK Jr. does not appear intent on fixing the problem. He's more content to take us through a hit parade of the most popular, and the most dismissible, theories purporting to show that John Kerry won Ohio, theories that have been swirling about the blogosphere ever since the race was called.

Manjoo misses the point. If it is proven the election was stolen, it will no longer be possible to delay "repairing our electoral machinery" or enacting "voting reforms" that Congress smirks at. RFK, unlike Manjoo, understands politics. To get reform requires proving that the election was stolen. To prove that the election was stolen requires an investigation. To get an investigation requires lots and lots of public anger, including some that may later be discovered to have been misplaced.

Point by point: 1. Manjoo: That report does indeed point out that many people -- 26 percent -- who first registered in 2004 did not find their names on the voter rolls at polling places. What Kennedy doesn't say, though, is that the same study found no significant difference in the share of Kerry voters and Bush voters who came to the polls and didn't find their names listed. The Democrats' report says that 4.2 percent of Kerry voters were forced to cast a "provisional" ballot and that 4.1 percent of Bush voters were made to do the same First, a mere 0.1% difference between Bush and Kerry voters amounts to thousands of votes in an election where the difference between win and loss was roughly 130,000. But more important are the holes in Manjoo's reasoning: We are supposed to assume that (a) the need to cast a provisional ballot is equally distributed, (b) that everyone who should have been allowed to use a provisional ballot was in fact allowed to, and (c) that provisional ballots were counted in an equitable manner. In fact, the Conyers report found that Democratic voters were disproportionately (and in violation of the Voting Rights Act) targeted for challenge at the polls, that many more Democratic than Republican voters were turned away by long lines, and that many were improperly denied provisional ballots. As for the counting, Ohio did a remarkable job of counting provisional ballots-- except in Democratic counties like Lucas County. There, 41% of provisionals were rejected, vs. 23% statewide. In Cuyahoga, it was 34%. Knowing how averages work, those disparities mean that in Republican counties, almost all provisionals must have been counted.

2. Kennedy's headlining claim is that 357,000 voters, "most of them Democratic," were either prevented from voting or had their votes go uncounted, making Kerry (who lost by 118,000) the likely true winner. Kennedy finds these "missing votes" in the damnedest places...He says that 174,000 mostly Kerry voters didn't vote because they were put off by long lines. But the source states it was actually 129,543 voters, and that those votes would have split evenly between Kerry and Bush. Does anyone think that an estimate can be made to the voter? The source, which Manjoo might have linked at the first reference rather than below the fold, is the DNC Voting Rights Institute report. "Democracy at Risk" There is no basis given for assuming that discouraged voters would have split evenly and in fact, no basis exists. White voters waited on average about 20 minutes, black voters, nearly an hour. That suggests this assumption is simply wrong. But there were more people put off by long lines than those who actually went to the polls and were discouraged. The report also mentions 48,000 voters who didn't vote because, among other factors, they had heard about long lines. Added 6/4. Malcolm on Kos pointed out that the DNC report does say on page 5 that three percent of voters were turned away by long lines: Scarcity of voting machines caused long lines that deterred many people from voting. Three percent of voters who went to the polls left their polling places and did not return due to the long lines Kennedy may be wrong, but he's less wrong than Manjoo says. It would have made sense for Manjoo to contact Kennedy and ask about his math, since it's very usual in these situations to find that the other fellow's "errors" are actually different calculation methods. By the same token, it would have made sense for Kennedy to explain his calculation and mention why the equal split hypothesis is probably wrong. He certainly should have been clear that the DNC report made this leap into the clouds of faith, rather than short-circuiting on this point. But realistically, these things need to be worked out in discussion, rather than turned into teapot-sized tempests. 3. Worse, Kennedy relies on a band of researchers whose research on election fraud has long been called into question by experts. Only, Manjoo never tells us who they are or who "the experts" or the "band of researchers" are. This is a sleazy way to write, verging on a smear. My best guess (sneaking a peek below the fold) is that Manjoo is saying that the work of Steve Freeman and associates has been disputed by Warren Mitofsky and associates. Both Freeman and Mitofsky are experts. Mitofsky is well-connected and well-to-do. Doubtless his donations and aid support researchers and institutes in the area of research from which critics of Freeman are drawn. Freeman's work, done pro bono, poses a very serious threat to Warren Mitofsky's future income. Does anyone think this makes for a level playing field? I don't. Where Freeman has presented his findings, Mitofsky has been pretty badly stumped.
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:41 pm

7 Wishes wrote:Well, once again...YET again...you're missing the point.

An equitable staggered tax is NOT in of itself socialism.

Short answer: the taxes on the top 5% income earners will STILL be less than under your spendocrat-in-disguise hero Ronnie Reagan.


Will you please learn how to quote so we know who the hell you're replying to?
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:54 pm

a negative tax burden is socialism. that is what obama is proposing.

that is fact... can't argue against facts.

7 Wishes wrote:Well, once again...YET again...you're missing the point.

An equitable staggered tax is NOT in of itself socialism.

Short answer: the taxes on the top 5% income earners will STILL be less than under your spendocrat-in-disguise hero Ronnie Reagan.

How does it feel to ALWAYS be wrong?

Manjoo himself states that there is substantial reason that the election was stolen: Many experts have concluded that the election there strains conventional notions of what a democracy ought to look like; very little about that race was fair, clean or competent. Way back in January 2005, a panel headed by Democratic Rep. John Conyers of Michigan reported that it had found enough irregularities in Ohio to call into question the state election results and the entire presidential vote.

But whether the election was stolen or not is unimportant to Manjoo. It's all water under the bridge: Whatever his aim, RFK Jr. does not appear intent on fixing the problem. He's more content to take us through a hit parade of the most popular, and the most dismissible, theories purporting to show that John Kerry won Ohio, theories that have been swirling about the blogosphere ever since the race was called.

Manjoo misses the point. If it is proven the election was stolen, it will no longer be possible to delay "repairing our electoral machinery" or enacting "voting reforms" that Congress smirks at. RFK, unlike Manjoo, understands politics. To get reform requires proving that the election was stolen. To prove that the election was stolen requires an investigation. To get an investigation requires lots and lots of public anger, including some that may later be discovered to have been misplaced.

Point by point: 1. Manjoo: That report does indeed point out that many people -- 26 percent -- who first registered in 2004 did not find their names on the voter rolls at polling places. What Kennedy doesn't say, though, is that the same study found no significant difference in the share of Kerry voters and Bush voters who came to the polls and didn't find their names listed. The Democrats' report says that 4.2 percent of Kerry voters were forced to cast a "provisional" ballot and that 4.1 percent of Bush voters were made to do the same First, a mere 0.1% difference between Bush and Kerry voters amounts to thousands of votes in an election where the difference between win and loss was roughly 130,000. But more important are the holes in Manjoo's reasoning: We are supposed to assume that (a) the need to cast a provisional ballot is equally distributed, (b) that everyone who should have been allowed to use a provisional ballot was in fact allowed to, and (c) that provisional ballots were counted in an equitable manner. In fact, the Conyers report found that Democratic voters were disproportionately (and in violation of the Voting Rights Act) targeted for challenge at the polls, that many more Democratic than Republican voters were turned away by long lines, and that many were improperly denied provisional ballots. As for the counting, Ohio did a remarkable job of counting provisional ballots-- except in Democratic counties like Lucas County. There, 41% of provisionals were rejected, vs. 23% statewide. In Cuyahoga, it was 34%. Knowing how averages work, those disparities mean that in Republican counties, almost all provisionals must have been counted.

2. Kennedy's headlining claim is that 357,000 voters, "most of them Democratic," were either prevented from voting or had their votes go uncounted, making Kerry (who lost by 118,000) the likely true winner. Kennedy finds these "missing votes" in the damnedest places...He says that 174,000 mostly Kerry voters didn't vote because they were put off by long lines. But the source states it was actually 129,543 voters, and that those votes would have split evenly between Kerry and Bush. Does anyone think that an estimate can be made to the voter? The source, which Manjoo might have linked at the first reference rather than below the fold, is the DNC Voting Rights Institute report. "Democracy at Risk" There is no basis given for assuming that discouraged voters would have split evenly and in fact, no basis exists. White voters waited on average about 20 minutes, black voters, nearly an hour. That suggests this assumption is simply wrong. But there were more people put off by long lines than those who actually went to the polls and were discouraged. The report also mentions 48,000 voters who didn't vote because, among other factors, they had heard about long lines. Added 6/4. Malcolm on Kos pointed out that the DNC report does say on page 5 that three percent of voters were turned away by long lines: Scarcity of voting machines caused long lines that deterred many people from voting. Three percent of voters who went to the polls left their polling places and did not return due to the long lines Kennedy may be wrong, but he's less wrong than Manjoo says. It would have made sense for Manjoo to contact Kennedy and ask about his math, since it's very usual in these situations to find that the other fellow's "errors" are actually different calculation methods. By the same token, it would have made sense for Kennedy to explain his calculation and mention why the equal split hypothesis is probably wrong. He certainly should have been clear that the DNC report made this leap into the clouds of faith, rather than short-circuiting on this point. But realistically, these things need to be worked out in discussion, rather than turned into teapot-sized tempests. 3. Worse, Kennedy relies on a band of researchers whose research on election fraud has long been called into question by experts. Only, Manjoo never tells us who they are or who "the experts" or the "band of researchers" are. This is a sleazy way to write, verging on a smear. My best guess (sneaking a peek below the fold) is that Manjoo is saying that the work of Steve Freeman and associates has been disputed by Warren Mitofsky and associates. Both Freeman and Mitofsky are experts. Mitofsky is well-connected and well-to-do. Doubtless his donations and aid support researchers and institutes in the area of research from which critics of Freeman are drawn. Freeman's work, done pro bono, poses a very serious threat to Warren Mitofsky's future income. Does anyone think this makes for a level playing field? I don't. Where Freeman has presented his findings, Mitofsky has been pretty badly stumped.
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:02 pm

wtf? obama is CRAZY!! is he talking about starting a militia? that's what it sounds like to me...

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:07 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:a negative tax burden is socialism. that is what obama is proposing.

that is fact... can't argue against facts.



Tree, the article in question was a response to the faulty logic used to counter Robert Kennedy's factual description of how the Republicans stole the Presidential election in 2004...it had NOTHING to do with socialism.

SOCIALISM: An economic system in which the basic means of production are primarily owned and controlled collectively, usually by government under some system
REDISTRUBUTION: A mechanism whereby goods and services from the members of society are reallocated among the society's members

This is your brain on conservatism. Any questions?
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Postby Skylorde » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:10 pm

7 Wishes wrote:How does it feel to ALWAYS be wrong?


Your posts have degraded from the comical incoherent babble of a left wing wack job to sounding like the insane ramblings of a bastard child born out of wedlock to Howard Hughes and Janet Reno. Seriously.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:14 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:wtf? obama is CRAZY!! is he talking about starting a militia? that's what it sounds like to me...
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."


If you actually read the entire transcript, he's actually talking about AmeriCorps, the Foreign Service, and the Peace Corps.

Sorry, Dittoheads. You'll have to keep scratching around for your November Surprise.
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:14 pm

obama is crazy... that is a fact.

he wants to take over & turn american into obamica. oh hellz no! }:C|
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:15 pm

Skylorde wrote:
Your posts have degraded from the comical incoherent babble of a left wing wack job to sounding like the insane ramblings of a bastard child born out of wedlock to Howard Hughes and Janet Reno. Seriously.


This was actually a verbatim comment directed at me on multiple occasions by Stu, Lie Finder, and Dave.
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:16 pm

7 Wishes wrote:
treetopovskaya wrote:a negative tax burden is socialism. that is what obama is proposing.

that is fact... can't argue against facts.



Tree, the article in question was a response to the faulty logic used to counter Robert Kennedy's factual description of how the Republicans stole the Presidential election in 2004...it had NOTHING to do with socialism.

SOCIALISM: An economic system in which the basic means of production are primarily owned and controlled collectively, usually by government under some system
REDISTRUBUTION: A mechanism whereby goods and services from the members of society are reallocated among the society's members

This is your brain on conservatism. Any questions?


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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:16 pm

wishes...

obama

is

crazy
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:16 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:obama is crazy... that is a fact.

he wants to take over & turn american into obamica. oh hellz no! }:C|


What the hell is this? Have you been asleep at the wheel for eight years as the Republicans have stripped away many of our civil liberties while stealing two elections?
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Postby S2M » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:17 pm

La La, la la la (Tuesday, Tuesday)
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:18 pm

7 Wishes wrote:
Skylorde wrote:
Your posts have degraded from the comical incoherent babble of a left wing wack job to sounding like the insane ramblings of a bastard child born out of wedlock to Howard Hughes and Janet Reno. Seriously.


This was actually a verbatim comment directed at me on multiple occasions by Stu, Lie Finder, and Dave.


When have I used that comment (I'm guessing since you didn't quote it again...)? The only time I've used it recently is because you continually say "You're 100% wrong!!!" or "This is 100% fact!!!". BTW, I did a search on that phrase and I don't see where I've ever used it. :lol:
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:19 pm

Eh...it goes back a ways. I never took it personally.

I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, I'm sure...as are you guys.

But history will be the judge of that...the abundance of information available on the internet makes it relatively easy to find support for any particular theory to which you may or may not subscribe.
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Postby Rick » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:22 pm

StocktontoMalone wrote:La La, la la la (Tuesday, Tuesday)


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Rick » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:24 pm

7 Wishes wrote:
treetopovskaya wrote:obama is crazy... that is a fact.

he wants to take over & turn american into obamica. oh hellz no! }:C|


What the hell is this? Have you been asleep at the wheel for eight years as the Republicans have stripped away many of our civil liberties while stealing two elections?


others include, but not limited to:

Growing government
Spending like there's no tomorrow
Destroying the respect of the U.S.
Starting wars for personal gain
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:28 pm

"spending like there's no tomorrow"

if obama wins get used to it.
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Postby Enigma869 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:30 pm

Here is a woman McCain probably wouldn't want support from. What a fucking douche this bitch is! She's lucky I don't live in Michigan, because if I did, I'd throw about 100 dozen of eggs at her house and car! Hopefully, nobody here will actually defend this douche's behavior!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkBE0lWeYU


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Postby S2M » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:30 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:"spending like there's no tomorrow"

if obama wins get used to it.


I'm sure Washington can do without raises for a few years....
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Postby Rick » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:31 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:"spending like there's no tomorrow"

if obama wins get used to it.


Naa. Bush has set records that are going to be hard to break. :lol:
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Postby Rick » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:34 pm

Enigma869 wrote:Here is a woman McCain probably wouldn't want support from. What a fucking douche this bitch is! She's lucky I don't live in Michigan, because if I did, I'd throw about 100 dozen of eggs at her house and car! Hopefully, nobody here will actually defend this douche's behavior!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkBE0lWeYU


John from Boston


Punishing kids for their parents choices is about as low as you can get. What a fucking bitch.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:34 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:"spending like there's no tomorrow"

if obama wins get used to it.


Again, where HAVE you bee the past eight years?

If Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, and Katz all told you the sky was pink, would you believe them? Probably. If they all took a shit on a plate and passed it to you, and told you it was caviar, would you eat it? Almost certainly.

Try to think for YOURSELF for a change...you are a very intelligent woman.
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:52 pm

okay i should have said get used to it some more. better? }:C|

first thing i'm going to do when i join obama's little army is put a bullet in wishes butt. }=C))

HA!!
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Postby treetopovskaya » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:53 pm

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Postby Rick » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:58 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:this is really cute...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWdZuqXzJI


SNL could use that kid. :lol: Great costume.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:01 pm

treetopovskaya wrote:a negative tax burden is socialism. that is what obama is proposing.

that is fact... can't argue against facts.


Yet communal ownership of resources, which Marx advocated, somehow is not , or so says you.
You figure out a way to square that with your marching orders yet?
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