The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

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Postby Ehwmatt » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:57 am

strangegrey wrote:
Voyager wrote:
I don't think Douche is the cause of those dictators and regimes being in power. I just believe that the USA has no business trying to police any of them unless we are first attacked by them. We don't see China policing the world, and they are becoming as big of a superpower (or bigger) than the USA. If another country fucks with China, there would be hell to pay - and that's why no one messes with them. They are not snooping around in other country's business like Douche & associates feel the need to do, so they don't catch the worldwide hatred that is thrown at the USA for this very reason.

Sorry if a few of my assumptions were wrong about Chavez. All I was trying to say is that I believe his relationship with the USA will be much smoother once we have a President that is not trying to police the world.

8)


Sadly, things aren't as clear, cut and dry as they were back in prior to and including WWII. Countries don't declare "war" anymore. There's a more subtle line of diplomacy, war, tension....that is often conducted with a wink and an underlying message. While I don't think that Dubya has done anywhere near a passable job in office....I think you're being a little too naive in suggesting that our general foreign policy motives changed drastically under bush.

Had the US been attacked on 9/11, under an Al Gore presidency, there would have been a military response....it might not have been the same type of response....but to suggest that "policing" of other countries is something that happens solely under GWB, well...again...that's naive. If you were to front such an idea, how do you explain Bosnia? Somalia? etc Clinton did it too....GHWB did it....Reagan did it....Carter Cluster fucked it....I can go on.


Strangegrey, you're fast becoming one of my favorite posters in these topics.
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Postby Skylorde » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:03 am

Fact Finder wrote:To Obama if you make $250,000 , $9,000 more is CHUMP CHANGE. UNREAL that you folks can think this is good after a person has already paid $90,000 in income tax, plus the various and sundry other taxes one incurs on a daily basis. Gasoline Tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax, Phone Tax, Cable Tax, Gas and Electric Tax and on and on and on....have you no shame?


Fact,

Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)
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Postby Rhiannon » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:04 am

Skylorde wrote:Fact,

Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


*Applause*... just as she's been for the past 232 years.
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Postby Barb » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:05 am

Skylorde wrote:Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


I hear Vodka has no carbs. I'm going to stock up and start watching soap operas instead of the news. :lol:
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:06 am

Barb wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


I hear Vodka has no carbs. I'm going to stock up and start watching soap operas instead of the news. :lol:


Hey, where've you been? 8)
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Postby Barb » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:07 am

conversationpc wrote:
Barb wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


I hear Vodka has no carbs. I'm going to stock up and start watching soap operas instead of the news. :lol:


Hey, where've you been? 8)


Life is crazy busy at home and work. Looking forward to Glenn's live election coverage for the INsiders tomorrow though. ;)
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Postby Ehwmatt » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:09 am

Skylorde wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:To Obama if you make $250,000 , $9,000 more is CHUMP CHANGE. UNREAL that you folks can think this is good after a person has already paid $90,000 in income tax, plus the various and sundry other taxes one incurs on a daily basis. Gasoline Tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax, Phone Tax, Cable Tax, Gas and Electric Tax and on and on and on....have you no shame?


Fact,

Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


Sadly quite true.
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Postby Saint John » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:11 am

I have my guns ready along with a fire extinguisher. My guess is that when Barack Osama wins there's gonna be plenty of looting. Not as much as if he had lost, but looting nonetheless. No one is fucking up my house. Luckily, my other propert is a 3rd floor condo and my tenant is a nut.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 am

Barb wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Barb wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


I hear Vodka has no carbs. I'm going to stock up and start watching soap operas instead of the news. :lol:


Hey, where've you been? 8)


Life is crazy busy at home and work. Looking forward to Glenn's live election coverage for the INsiders tomorrow though. ;)


I am voting early tomorrow morning, at 6am. Fortunately, the polls are only a couple of minutes away from our house.
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Postby Barb » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:14 am

conversationpc wrote:
Barb wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Barb wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Obama is going to win, you might as well accept that. They'll be power for four or eight years, fuck everything up and get thrown out of power. The Republicans will swoop into power, fuck everything up and get thrown out again.

Rinse

Repeat

:)


I hear Vodka has no carbs. I'm going to stock up and start watching soap operas instead of the news. :lol:


Hey, where've you been? 8)


Life is crazy busy at home and work. Looking forward to Glenn's live election coverage for the INsiders tomorrow though. ;)


I am voting early tomorrow morning, at 6am. Fortunately, the polls are only a couple of minutes away from our house.


Our polls don't open until 7AM, so can't vote until after work. My presidential vote doesn't count, but I'm voting on the propositions.
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:15 am

Fact Finder wrote:http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1598409/20081102/story.jhtml


MTV News sat down with Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Saturday in Nevada, but we weren't alone. We were armed with your questions, and we took them directly to the senator himself.


--snip--

Sway: Just out of curiosity, for those that are being taxed that are making more than $250,000 a year, how much difference would it be from how they are being taxed today?

Obama: Well, right now, they are getting taxed at 36 percent. Under Bill Clinton in the 1990s, they were being taxed at 39.6 percent. You are talking about a 3.6 percent difference, and for the average person who is making half a million, a million dollars, now people like you Sway, that's chump change, that's nothing. But it could make a big difference for that young person who is trying to figure out whether they can go to college or not, if we could give them more of a break or more scholarships or grants to go to college.





So lets get this straight. Obama is lying to MTV and to young voters about the math..3.6 IS A 10% INCREASE NOT 3.6% INCREASE.

Make $250,000 at 36% and pay $90,000 in taxes.

Make $250,000 at 39.6 and pay $99,000 in taxes.

To Obama if you make $250,000 , $9,000 more is CHUMP CHANGE. UNREAL that you folks can think this is good after a person has already paid $90,000 in income tax, plus the various and sundry other taxes one incurs on a daily basis. Gasoline Tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax, Phone Tax, Cable Tax, Gas and Electric Tax and on and on and on....have you no shame?


Eh, you're harping on something that could be taken 2 different ways. I don't think he's lying.

increasing the 36% rate, 3.6% to 39.6 is a 10% increase of the TAX rate. Not the overall percentage of income. Tax is almost always referred to as a percentage of income...not a percentage of itself....

Obama is calling the 3.6% hike a 3.6 percent difference. That's not a lie. It might not be the absolutely correct way to state it...but it's not a lie. Come on, if that's a lie...I'll gladly take it. It's a hell of alot LESS harmless than "There are WMDs in Iraq"


Regardless, let's take your example of 250k per year. A person getting twice a month, will get a gross check of $9,615.38.

Under a tax rate of 36% that gross check gets a federal hit of $3461.54
Under a tax rate of 39.6% the gross check gets a federal hit of $3807.69


That calls for a difference of $346.15 a month in their paycheck....and that's before tax credits, legal tax avoidance that a person making 250k has at his/her disposal that a person making 50k doesnt....etc... The effect is far less pronounced.


Regardless, lets assume that by voting for Obama a person has accepted this twice a month increase in taxes.

Therefore, the only people we're really talking about are republicans.


and frankly, making them cough up $346.15 every two weeks seems to be a worthwhile penal fine for voting for that dog-brained idiot George W. Bush in the first place. Maybe next time, they won't be so stupid! :P
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Postby Tito » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:19 am

Saint John wrote:I have my guns ready along with a fire extinguisher. My guess is that when Barack Osama wins there's gonna be plenty of looting. Not as much as if he had lost, but looting nonetheless. No one is fucking up my house. Luckily, my other propert is a 3rd floor condo and my tenant is a nut.



I'm praying for this. If it doesn't happen, I will be so depressed.
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Postby ProgRocker53 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:20 am

I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:23 am

ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.


It's not worth getting that worked up over.
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Postby SteveForever » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:23 am

ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.



God is in charge. 8)
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:28 am

conversationpc wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.


It's not worth getting that worked up over.


really....Barack can't be *that* bad. We all survived 4 years of Jimmy Carter and 8 years of George W. Bush....
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Postby Saint John » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:30 am

strangegrey wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.


It's not worth getting that worked up over.


really....Barack can't be *that* bad. We all survived 4 years of Jimmy Carter and 8 years of George W. Bush....
Neither of those 2 hated this country though.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:32 am

conversationpc wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.


It's not worth getting that worked up over.


Depending on your circumstances, it is. I'm also glad I'm not anywhere near any urban areas, regardless of the outcome.

I'm just thankful my parents own their house if Obama wins...
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Postby Skylorde » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:32 am

strangegrey wrote:Therefore, the only people we're really talking about are republicans.

and frankly, making them cough up $346.15 every two weeks seems to be a worthwhile penal fine for voting for that dog-brained idiot George W. Bush in the first place. Maybe next time, they won't be so stupid! :P


:lol: :lol: :o :o
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Postby peridactyl » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:41 am

Interesting blog from Huffington Post:

John Cusack (yes, the actor. Who would have thought he had it in him?)
November 2, 2008
No Currency Left to Buy the Big Lies

As I contemplated the real possibility of an Obama victory and listened to right wing pundits revise history still unfolding, I thought of titles for this blog:

"Neocon Logic: This Statement is Untrue"
"The Modern Free Market System is False But a New Revelation Shall Come"
" They Would Feast on Themselves: All the Money's Gone, Nowhere to Go"
I decided on:
"No Currency Left to Buy the Big Lies"

In the pre-capitalist reality, James Madison said when he put power in the hands of the business elite, he would be entrusting "enlightened statesmen and benevolent philosophers who would devote themselves to the welfare of all."

Clearly, he believed this statement in the way I guess some modern Republicans do. The only problem was that he eventually realized this didn't work and in 1792, disillusioned and worried about the democratic experiment, condemned what he called "the daring depravity of the times." He went on to denounce the business elites who, given ultimate power, "become tools and tyrants of government...they overwhelm government with their powers and combinations and are bribed by its largesse." That's how he perceived the system he had helped design. In 2008, this is an apt description of the Republican relationship to government and power.

Finally, some blue light, tectonic plate shifts, a sea change, we hear... a wave of despair carrying us to a new place. The bastards are finally meeting their grisly ends and will be discarded and abandoned as men come to power who will actually try to govern. I know we're supposed to be civil but I'm not a real believer in this method when dealing with crimes.

What does the sea change mean? How can we help people understand what is happening and help them contextualize it?

First the past: Senator McCain, Governor Palin and assorted surrogates are delusional and breathtakingly corrupt. They disgrace themselves and their country as they lie, smear, slur and write it off as political manner.

Yet the creeping truth must frighten them late at night: there is no currency left to buy the big lies.

There is no more money left to loan or borrow the big lies or to sell them. No more money left to pay off the debt, the wreckage in the wake. The orgy of excess has drained every bottle, smashed the furniture and left the cupboards bare. All that's left is derivative debts -- bets between liars and lies. Trillions of dollars. Turned capitalism into a Ponzi scheme for trading worthless paper. No real value anywhere. No matter how much money Ben Bernanke prints.

We are asked to stand over the abyss and experience our own destruction as another political game show -- just another surreal horse race. We watch millionaires and paid Republican hacks appear on television yelling "Socialist!" at Obama as if the Bolsheviks are coming to rape our daughters. These are the same people who oversaw the greatest upward redistribution of wealth in the history of this country. The same people who, through general lawlessness and a privatization frenzy, succeeded in shredding the Constitution, turning war, illegal domestic spying, security, border patrol, interrogation, and even torture into profitable industries gorging on the state.

So define the big lie: free marketers want free markets. Not so, the facts say. They are the biggest welfare freaks on the planet.

These men and keepers of the faith would lecture us with a straight face on the evil socialists/ communists/terrorists /vampires/space aliens who would dare "redistribute wealth" by amending the tax code. Two wars and the only shared sacrifice they want is more tax cuts for the rich and for the U.S. citizenry to continue shopping. As Sidney Falco said, you gotta give it to them, their gall is gorgeous.

If we stay the course, we are told, we will finally, one day, reach that shining city on a hill, the free market-based fundamentalist utopia. Even though all evidence points the other way, we should listen, reason, step back and watch them as they devour what's left of the government. They will feast on themselves -- the feast of carrion the Book of Revelation tells us -- but I digress, sort of. It's over. This would be a great system if there were no human beings.

Mathematical realism. Eat what you kill. The bottom line. Greed is good. Graphs and flow charts and metrics for success. All social organization is based on profit as the unifying force and engine of the common good and even social justice; worship the market, even as you corrupt it.

Our perfect system will provide for all.

And yet Wall Street cripples America and the world because it won't adhere to the same rules it says we must obey for the good of freedom. Because reality won't be a slave to their machine.

And so this is how we can rationalize privatizing war. At last look, with 630 corporations like Blackwater and Halliburton getting 40% of the $2 billion spent each week in Iraq, no one can doubt the corporatist dominance of the war machine.

Mathematically, the market crash shouldn't have happened according to their system, but human feelings make panic and panic cannot be calculated. I would bet that someday someone will discover that math adheres to a quantum reality: the participants and the observers affect the outcome. I digress again. But not really.

Instead of an international consensus based on trust and global community, the Neocons say trust no one, need no one, ask no one. Rigged, "open" markets are created at the barrel of a gun after bombing a country. We must all bow to the market.

Collapse, chaos, lawlessness. And even the market voted with its feet.

The era of market idolatry is over.

This is the end of Milton Friedman, Reaganomics and supply-side theory. This ideology has never been about free markets but a fundamentalist vision that is a cover for naked aggression and a social contract based on fear and greed. The government's job is to create optimal conditions for corporate profit, to privatize everything in sight and to sell off its own body parts. To literally devour itself.

So we have laws that allow borrowing money against derivatives -- basically a bet between two people who create nothing without collateral. They leveraged the public financial health on something you wouldn't be allowed to do in Vegas. It illustrates the corruption that has become institutionalized through deregulation and a culture of predatory greed. Alan Greenspan testified that he was shocked: business didn't regulate itself. The common good was not achieved by greed. Naomi Klein read him the definition of crony capitalism and asked if it fit the description of the Bush administration's relationship to its favorite corporations.



I suppose he was shocked about that too. His testimony was incredible and felt like it was coated in lies or at least standing deeply in their shadows. But one doesn't doubt him as a true believer, absolved of messy feelings of collective responsibility. We made him a high priest even though we saw the suffering and the cruelty of the system.

The final irony of the free-market Darwinist model is instead of the strongest and best surviving, it's really the weakest and the worst. From a moral and spiritual point of view this is hardly in doubt. See George Bush. The gospel he purports to serve tells us this but perhaps he saw Christ as a conqueror. I've always doubted men who call themselves Christians who live by the law of the jungle. The gospels, the Koran and the Torah make no bones about it: wealth is not strength; power often represents not the brightest and the best but the weakest and worst. The beast in the Book of Revelation is not a horn-rimmed devil but Rome. Empire. Any empire. Every empire.

As Bush leaves office, the real truth is this: the new economies of the world disprove everything he ever said. Apparently that doesn't matter.

Neoconservatives will lie in the weeds and gather forces, the same players in a revolving door. They want back in and if history has proved anything, worshiping the markets is not enough. We must actually kill to feed them. A horrible cross-pollination of fundamentalism, dementia and market fever has turned America into a willing enabler of corporate cannibalism. Nothing else to call it when murder is seen as a legitimate extension of economic policy. Preemptive war is not only justified but openly referred to as a market opportunity. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. As we look out at the wreckage -- world economies collapsing, nationalized banks and a complete loss of trust -- we can see the hypocrisy as all are revealed as true socialists on the way down, crying in their scotch and Ambien as they run to the state for cover.

Many, like the Financial Times, endorse Obama. But let's remember when the F.T. and the Wall Street Journal talked glowingly and starry-eyed about the "Baghdad Boom" -- as horrifying a moniker as Shock and Awe. It was not the site of a gold rush, it was the sight of massacre and armed robbery. Now these men jump like rats off a death ship but don't be fooled. Francis Fukuyama and company will just lay low, regroup and rebrand. They speak openly about such things, beaten but unbowed, with no moral connection to the fiasco they have fostered. They speak as passing spectators watching the Weather Channel, (see Frum, Crystal, Brooks and all the rest), rather than intellectual architects, defenders, and foot soldiers in an illegal war and the thirty-five year assault on the New Deal.

As we help Obama try to implement another New Deal, I asked Naomi Klein about the parallels to The Shock Doctrine as it's polar opposite. She told me:



"I have been talking about the need for a progressive shock doctrine in speeches a lot. I call it disaster populism and the key difference is democracy. The right has been using shocks to suspend and sidestep democracy, declaring states of emergency and the progressive use of shock to enlarge and deepen the democratic space to bring more people into the political process. This is why it is important to remember that the New Deal did not come only from kindly elites handing it down from on high, but also because those elites were under massive popular pressure from below. We can all use shock and crisis to move the political direction of the country, but the progressive route is a democratic one, the right is an authoritarian one, even if it takes place within an electoral democracy."

The real challenge is to erase the delusion that greed equals freedom and prosperity, let alone the hideous lie that it somehow spreads justice. Amazingly, we are asked to listen to this gibberish in political life no matter how high the bile rises.

Many believe economies must serve humanity and not the other way around. Economies must make a moral connection to the republic. Brace yourselves free marketers: the quality of economic and human transactions will have to take priority over money. Faith and hope have to manifest in the social transactions we make.

A new social contract could be coming based on a real currency my friend Kevin McCabe calls the currency of grace. It is a currency of economic fairness and institutionalizing concepts of shared responsibility; a currency based on the gold standard that every human has value and should be awarded respect and opportunity, the dignity that comes from human beings protecting each other from the values and ideals of a Darwinist world. Its spirit is in Keynesian economics, a mixed economy with regulated markets and social spending. In the new era, we must remove fundamentalist right wing economists as the high priests and kings. Their ideology will stay dead only if we remain vigilant and call things what they are. It's a battle for the idea of America and it's just beginning if Senator Obama becomes president.

We should worship God if we want to, not the markets.

R.I.P Studs Terkel.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:42 am

"Had the US been attacked on 9/11, under an Al Gore presidency, there would have been a military response....it might not have been the same type of response.."

Right...the difference? Maintaining a response...to the right country that issued the attack! Not send over soldiers that under-number my G.I Joe collection, completely ignore that issue while at the same time declare war on another country for a reason that turned out to be false!

Progs, I'm disappointed in you that an Ohioan or whichever you would like to be called, like you will look forward to at least 4 more years under a Republican Party..a place where blue-color was once high in profile and proud of their doings. An Obama election would benefit a place like Ohio. Then again, Ohio was the deciding factor of last elections turnout, so I'm not surprised that people of that caliber would vote another Repub. in the house.

I currently have a guy.. a young guy..2 years older than me working on my bathroom and fixing it up. He's voting for McCain. The reason? For abortion reasons. What a joke.

Hopefully this election is done by atleast 11 tomorrow and they close up shop in a landslide. :twisted:
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Postby Tito » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:42 am

strangegrey wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:I am so nervous and fearful of an Obama victory tomorrow it's ridiculous.


It's not worth getting that worked up over.


really....Barack can't be *that* bad. We all survived 4 years of Jimmy Carter and 8 years of George W. Bush....


He will be worse.
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Postby hoagiepete » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:44 am

Dems controlling the House, Senate and White House. That will be an absolute disaster for our country. The Republicans f'ed it up when they had it, this will be worse.

I still haven't figured out how anyone can theoritically determine who is making "too much money" and then say we have to take it from them because of that fact and give to those that don't. Who should have that power? When is enough enough? Where do you stop? It's all arbitrary, except as to how it can get the most votes.

Any tax increase better include incentives for charitable deductions because charities and non-profits will be massacred when this takes place.

Give the Oval office to Obama, just give Congress back to the Republicans (which I know ain't gonna happen for a while).

Save this thought for four years and I'll be glad to eat my words if that is not the case. Higher inflation, higher interest rates, higher unemployment, more companies (and jobs) fleeing to other countries, weaker defense, more entitlements, less productivity, more division...it's gonna happen.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:52 am

hoagiepete wrote:Dems controlling the House, Senate and White House. That will be an absolute disaster for our country. The Republicans f'ed it up when they had it, this will be worse.

I still haven't figured out how anyone can theoritically determine who is making "too much money" and then say we have to take it from them because of that fact and give to those that don't. Who should have that power? When is enough enough? Where do you stop? It's all arbitrary, except as to how it can get the most votes.

Any tax increase better include incentives for charitable deductions because charities and non-profits will be massacred when this takes place.

Give the Oval office to Obama, just give Congress back to the Republicans (which I know ain't gonna happen for a while).

Save this thought for four years and I'll be glad to eat my words if that is not the case. Higher inflation, higher interest rates, higher unemployment, more companies (and jobs) fleeing to other countries, weaker defense, more entitlements, less productivity, more division...it's gonna happen.


There's nowhere to go but up. It can get worse of course, but under a fresh new resume who has a different policy and different outlook on how to control the country, with a well, intelligent, thought out plan, I believe this country would be on it's way up under a Obama regime. It will take a few years, under any candidate, but it will recover faster under a regime with a plan, and with a plan for change. Did I mention that intelligence would be behind this? Something we haven't seen since the Clinton years. I'm confident we'll get back on track, come January. Slowly, but surely.
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Postby Saint John » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:55 am

YoungJRNY wrote:"Progs, I'm disappointed in you that an Ohioan or whichever you would like to be called, like you will look forward to at least 4 more years under a Republican Party..a place where blue-color was once high in profile and proud of their doings. An Obama election would benefit a place like Ohio.
Obama will destroy the trades. No one will be building anything. They're all going to leave and go where they won't be taxed to death. And here's Obama's energy plan per his own words:

Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.

That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.

The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a (sic) ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.

It's just that it will bankrupt them.
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Postby Tito » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:57 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
hoagiepete wrote:Dems controlling the House, Senate and White House. That will be an absolute disaster for our country. The Republicans f'ed it up when they had it, this will be worse.

I still haven't figured out how anyone can theoritically determine who is making "too much money" and then say we have to take it from them because of that fact and give to those that don't. Who should have that power? When is enough enough? Where do you stop? It's all arbitrary, except as to how it can get the most votes.

Any tax increase better include incentives for charitable deductions because charities and non-profits will be massacred when this takes place.

Give the Oval office to Obama, just give Congress back to the Republicans (which I know ain't gonna happen for a while).

Save this thought for four years and I'll be glad to eat my words if that is not the case. Higher inflation, higher interest rates, higher unemployment, more companies (and jobs) fleeing to other countries, weaker defense, more entitlements, less productivity, more division...it's gonna happen.


There's nowhere to go but up. It can get worse of course, but under a fresh new resume who has a different policy and different outlook on how to control the country, with a well, intelligent, thought out plan, I believe this country would be on it's way up under a Obama regime. It will take a few years, under any candidate, but it will recover faster under a regime with a plan, and with a plan for change. Did I mention that intelligence would be behind this? Something we haven't seen since the Clinton years. I'm confident we'll get back on track, come January. Slowly, but surely.


I must have missed the Clinton years. What was so good about his policies towards manufacturing. He was the one who pushed and signed NAFTA.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:00 am

Saint John wrote:Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.

That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.

The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a (sic) ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.

It's just that it will bankrupt them.


Unbelievably reckless. Yet more proof that man-made global warming is making governments and man-maders a ton of money instead of advancing actual ideas to clean up REAL environmental problems.
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Postby separate_wayz » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:06 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
hoagiepete wrote:Dems controlling the House, Senate and White House. That will be an absolute disaster for our country. The Republicans f'ed it up when they had it, this will be worse.

I still haven't figured out how anyone can theoritically determine who is making "too much money" and then say we have to take it from them because of that fact and give to those that don't. Who should have that power? When is enough enough? Where do you stop? It's all arbitrary, except as to how it can get the most votes.

Any tax increase better include incentives for charitable deductions because charities and non-profits will be massacred when this takes place.

Give the Oval office to Obama, just give Congress back to the Republicans (which I know ain't gonna happen for a while).

Save this thought for four years and I'll be glad to eat my words if that is not the case. Higher inflation, higher interest rates, higher unemployment, more companies (and jobs) fleeing to other countries, weaker defense, more entitlements, less productivity, more division...it's gonna happen.


There's nowhere to go but up. It can get worse of course, but under a fresh new resume who has a different policy and different outlook on how to control the country, with a well, intelligent, thought out plan, I believe this country would be on it's way up under a Obama regime. It will take a few years, under any candidate, but it will recover faster under a regime with a plan, and with a plan for change. Did I mention that intelligence would be behind this? Something we haven't seen since the Clinton years. I'm confident we'll get back on track, come January. Slowly, but surely.



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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:13 am

conversationpc wrote:
Saint John wrote:Let me sort of describe my overall policy.

What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there.

I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.

That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.

The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a (sic) ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.

So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.

It's just that it will bankrupt them.


Unbelievably reckless. Yet more proof that man-made global warming is making governments and man-maders a ton of money instead of advancing actual ideas to clean up REAL environmental problems.


This will always be a problem. A problem where there are too many ingredients and too much money put into a plan that mother nature will destroy. When it comes to that, things are bound to go wrong. It's going to have to take the right amount of intelligence and a team that will put together a policy that will at least help this cause out. This problem will never be fixed, but it's nice to see that something drastically needs to be taken into consideration to at least help this problem out.
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:30 am

Saint John wrote:Obama will destroy the trades. No one will be building anything.


I agree. If he gets elected, I am going to throw my hammer and the rest of my tools off a bridge into the river and just say fuck it. I'm not going to build another mother fucking thing again! I'm just going to sit on my couch, drink beer, and bitch about Obama.

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