Moderator: Andrew
by The_Noble_Cause » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:07 pm
strangegrey wrote:However, Palin had a few old-school republican things going for her, from the perspective of the disillusioned republican base....and those few things.....in todays atmosphere....were enough to make people forget all about the fact that she's an idiot....
by hoagiepete » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:21 pm
strangegrey wrote:And #2 of the definition you post falls exactly under this context. I'm sorry if you don't want to view tax credits, trade policy that encourages sending jobs overseas an entitlement. I do...and perhaps for you to understand the concept I'm trying to drive home, let's not call it an entitlement. Let's call it tax and trade policy welfare to big business. The net effect is the same.
Who cares what it's called?
The point I was driving home was that the republican party has shifted from core values in what seems like an overt, deliberate attempt to adopt old school democrat ideals....welfare spending and fiscal irresponsibility. The fiscal irresponsibility is well documented...
However, the welfare spending is no different with the grand exception of who the beneficiaries are. Democrats spend on the poor through welfare, healthcare, etc and hook them into the entitlement system. Republicans as of late, have spent through tax credits and irresponsible trade policy to benefit big business. It's NO different other than who's getting the 'benefits' ....
but it *is* welfare. Just a different kind to a different party.
And the point of what I was saying is that the core principles of irresponsible budgeting and "government programs providing benefits to members of a specified group" (i.e. welfare or entitlements) of what was once core principles of the democrat party are now adopted by the right....
by Michigan Girl » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:27 am
hoagiepete wrote:strangegrey wrote:And #2 of the definition you post falls exactly under this context. I'm sorry if you don't want to view tax credits, trade policy that encourages sending jobs overseas an entitlement. I do...and perhaps for you to understand the concept I'm trying to drive home, let's not call it an entitlement. Let's call it tax and trade policy welfare to big business. The net effect is the same.
Who cares what it's called?
The point I was driving home was that the republican party has shifted from core values in what seems like an overt, deliberate attempt to adopt old school democrat ideals....welfare spending and fiscal irresponsibility. The fiscal irresponsibility is well documented...
However, the welfare spending is no different with the grand exception of who the beneficiaries are. Democrats spend on the poor through welfare, healthcare, etc and hook them into the entitlement system. Republicans as of late, have spent through tax credits and irresponsible trade policy to benefit big business. It's NO different other than who's getting the 'benefits' ....
but it *is* welfare. Just a different kind to a different party.
And the point of what I was saying is that the core principles of irresponsible budgeting and "government programs providing benefits to members of a specified group" (i.e. welfare or entitlements) of what was once core principles of the democrat party are now adopted by the right....
Ok...there are again several points you have made I agree with.
However, I'm still missin' the "entitlement" program for the middle class. I'm probably considered in the middle to upper-middle and I didn't get shit out of the bail out. I didn't overextend in my choice of house and thus not living in an upside down mortgage (even though I could have but chose not to in case interest rates went up), I'm not a Wall Street exec. I guess all I'm saying is I don't see an entitlement program for me. I see me paying for plenty and am about to pay for more...but none for me.
I am tired, I guess really almost burnt out, of working my ass off, missing dinners with the family, kids games, quiet time with my wife... sleep....to make a better life for my family and it just pisses me off that I'm going to end up paying for the bums that just want to live off the government...or in otherwards...those that actually earn a living.
You haven't said it, even though I keep trying to get it out of you...you think the middle/upper class entitlement is to actually keep the money they earn. If that is it, fuckin A, that is my god damn entitlement. Fuck me if I think I am entitled to actually keep the money I have earned. If I want to help the disadvantaged, it should be my choice. I have been in any ways, but paying into the fucked up bureaucracy of the US Govt ain't one of them. People will help a whole lot more if it is by choice than by IRS and goverment demand.
I think I just realized how burnt out I am as I find myself seeking escape on these fucked up message boards...and then end up talking this kind of shit. Oh brother. I think I need help.
Bring back Deano so I can just log on and laugh my ass off at him going off and the responses he gets from everyone else. He and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I miss the guy. Bring back tapegate. How about a rumor...Perry is rejoining the boys for their next album??? Something!
Life was much simpler then. I just had a 16 hour day...I'm going to bed.
by Skylorde » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:33 am
I write to you today as a very disgruntled ex-Republican.
On the day after America showed its disdain for the monumental failures of this party by electing a far-left Marxist to the Whitehouse, I think its time you understand why I am but one person who has abandoned the Republicans as my party.
In short, you abandoned me.
I have been a conservative for many years, having once leaned slightly left of center. I gravitated toward the Republicans because I grew weary of the infringing influence of the Left. I came to loathe the Democrats by the time Clinton saw his last days in office and hoped to see a new dawn where our constitutional principles, our ethics, morality and devotion to COUNTRY FIRST came before all other things.
And what did you give us these past 8 years? A president who will go down as amongst the absolute worst in history. A president who trampled on our constitution, who spat on the idea of WE the PEOPLE. And you, collectively as a party not only allowed him to get away with it, you defended him throughout.
When you promised smaller government we got BIGGER government.
When you promised to defend our liberties, you TRAMPLED our liberties.
When you promised sound foreign policy you gave us RECKLESS foreign policy.
When you promised fiscal responsibility you gave us fiscal CATASTROPHE.
When you promised secure borders you gave us WIDE OPEN borders.
I can go on and on about what you were supposed to do what your party actually did. Need I? How about a few more then....
- The patriot act
- Two unfinished wars
- A war in Iraq launched on LIES and personal vendettas
- A war in Afghanistan completely mismanaged from the start
- Rampant nepotism and cronieism
- The WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL policy of promoting the greatest foreign invasion on US soil ever - millions of illegal aliens
- Attempting to give amnesty to the millions of foreign invaders and pandering to radical Hispanic groups
- Using all manner of deceit to conceal your efforts at amnesty
- Putting big business well before the interests of the middle class
- Allowing massive outsourcing of US jobs
- The illegal agreement to merge Canada, the US and Mexico into a North American Union
- A FRAUDULENT bail-out of the greedy, morally bankrupt Wall Street criminals using taxpayer funds
- Fraudulently passing the CAFTA agreement
- Trying to sell out our ports to the Arabs
- Mass de-regulation on that which requires regulation
- An abusive foreign and domestic policy that made America the bane of the world
- The incompetent, useless and corrupt Department of Homeland Security
- Failing to move us toward alternative energy
- The politically motivated prosecutions and imprisonment of two innocent border agents
- Constant fraternization with globalist organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations
- Karl Rove
There is so much more that can be said about just how ruthlessly corrupt, devoid of ethics and massively incompetent this adminstration has been but I am so digusted that I don't think I can stomach writing it all out. You not only sold out your very own principles as a party, you sullied the legacy of the party and the memory of those who were true Republicans. Worst of all, you destroyed the trust of the people and to the very end you have remained arrogant and unapologetic for it.
You had the chance for redemption and the opportunity despite all this president did to damage America, to win this election. But what did you do instead? You gave us the weakest, most unpopular candidate of them all - John McCain: a pro-amnesty, liberal, do-nothing Senator. You attacked and ridiculed Ron Paul, America's best hope and allowed your weak candidate to insult American women by choosing a completely unqualified female VP hoping to capture disenfranchised Hillary Clinton supporters. This showed the height of your ineptitude as a party.
You have now doomed us to the most liberal Democratic adminstration to take office. This could have been averted had you supported a true Republican and patriot for the Whitehouse. Instead you chose a fraud and an empty suit who could gain the trust of but a few die-hard party members.
None of what has taken place while you held the reigns of power will be forgotten and for many of us you shall never be forgiven. The malfeasance of the Bush regime will live long in our memories.
For those of us who have left the Republican party in the wake of your betrayals there will be no turning back. Perhaps after you sift through the ashes of your failures these past 8 years you will learn and take heed the lessons of your errors and decide to set aside your own self-interest and put the American people FIRST. Our nation is in peril and we have never been weaker thanks to these past 8 years. Now we must face amongst our most challenging times with a liberal, spineless group of Marxists and Socialists at the helm. We are a nation divided and much of it is because of these past 8 years. When will you openly bear responsibility?
Go back and re-examine what you have done and in which direction you wish to proceed. Until such time as you learn what true conservatism means and when you have realized that the American people expect their rights, freedoms, security and ecomony to be entrusted to competent people with morals and ethics and who understand the meaning of our constitution and national soverignty then you will continue to rightly lose your place amongst the leadership of this country.
You lost this election because you deserved to lose it. At least learn from from your defeat because it is us who are ultimately going to pay for it.
by Tito » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:01 am
Journey/Survivor wrote:Brian Williams mentioned on NBC news that Sarah Palin didn't know that Africa is a continent, she thought that it was just a country.
by strangegrey » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:46 am
hoagiepete wrote:You haven't said it, even though I keep trying to get it out of you...you think the middle/upper class entitlement is to actually keep the money they earn. If that is it, fuckin A, that is my god damn entitlement.
.
by Tito » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:07 am
by hoagiepete » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:15 am
strangegrey wrote:hoagiepete wrote:You haven't said it, even though I keep trying to get it out of you...you think the middle/upper class entitlement is to actually keep the money they earn. If that is it, fuckin A, that is my god damn entitlement.
No, Im not going there....The point I was making is that republican policy has made it very easy for american businesses to stick it to the middle class through reckless trade and tax policy (which favored the upper class). Perhaps I was too greedy in suggesting that 'entitlements' for the upper class includes the upper middle. I consider myself in the middle-upper class....and according to Obama, I'm ultra rich (however, during the last weeks of the election, the 'ultra rich' threshold seems to have dropped from 250k down to 100k
Like I said...I believe that the concepts I propose are sound. The republicans adopted truly liberal concepts over the past few years...Read the letter Skylorde posted...it outlines it perfect. The two concepts that have truly drove people away are fiscal irresponsibility and welfare programs for big business. When you make it dreadfully easy for US business to cut out its workforce here in the states to replace it with outsourced workers, you kill the ability for the middle class to drive the economy here....because they've lost their fucking jobs. There's a fine line between 'free market' and 'sound' protection for US trade. Bush crossed it in his first term and pissed on the markers that defined it. These 'handouts' to american business in the form of easing restrictions....may have helped business at the top end....but at their peril...because they killed the middle class.
I remember back about 6-7 years ago...I got into it, politically with a buddy of mine. This buddy is as bleeding heart as they come...I remember talking about something Bush had done and his comment was that the result would be another clear effort for Bush 'to do whatever he could to erase the middle class'....I remember getting frustrated with him because that's not something republicans do. democrats have routinely had it in their best interest to drive as many people down from the middle...to under the poverty line, so that they will require help from the entitlement programs.
It took until recently to realize that he wasn't that fucking far off....the only difference was that he was complaining about Bush doing something very 'liberal.' Ironic, now that I think about it...however, he was 'allowed' to complain...because Bush was a big bad republican...so it was ok to complain about something that used to be truly a liberal problem.
Bush convinced the entire republican party to drive off the cliff with him...sad....truly sad.
by strangegrey » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:47 am
hoagiepete wrote:I do have a last couple of questions...someone (smarter than me) needs to explain how we walk that trightrope of developing countries (by creating jobs and buying power) around the world in order to establish new markets for our companies, while not sacrificing the jobs in our country. Also, how can we compete in the global market when foreign companies will do what we have been doing and thus have a considerable market advantage in doing so? Also, how are you going to reign in organized labor from going overboard with their demands and shooting themselves in the foot?
Someone punch me in the head....but when you trade with other countries....you're far better off SELLING your goods so that you get a fair value return.
by Tito » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:14 am
:
by Tito » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:20 am
This guy is arrogant. Why doesn't he just bring back that seal.
by AlteredDNA » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:12 am
Tito wrote:Since when do we have the Office of President-Elect.
How about this line too from the press conference:
He had reached out to former presidents for advice in the transition process, Obama said, joking that the list included only the ones that are still living. "I didn't want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing about, you know, doing any séances," he said.
by AlteredDNA » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:33 am
Obama also left the door open to the possibility economic conditions might prompt him to change his tax plan that would give a break to most families but raise taxes on those making more than $250,000 annually.
"I think that the plan that we've put forward is the right one, but, obviously, over the next several weeks and months, we're going to be continuing to take a look at the data and see what's taking place in the economy as a whole," Obama said.
by Don » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:54 am
Fact Finder wrote:I gotta say, I watched this presser today and O was completley lacking in substance. Stupid questions about him buying a dog and his daughter being allergic, the totally classless slam at Nancy Reagan, and the ever present ummms and ahhhas while reading from notes and never looking at the camera and then to top it off he completley blew off the question about raising taxes on the $250k group and instead went back into campaign mode with his 95% tax cut lie. This guy may give W a run on stringing a few sentences together.
by AlteredDNA » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:23 am
Obama apologizes to Nancy Reagan for 'careless' joke
President-elect Barack Obama called Nancy Reagan this afternoon to apologize for a joke about her having heald "séances" in the White House, an Obama aide said.
“President-elect Barack Obama called Nancy Reagan today to apologize for the careless and off handed remark he made during today’s press conference," said transition spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter. "The President-elect expressed his admiration and affection for Mrs. Reagan that so many Americans share and they had a warm conversation."
Obama was asked at his press conference today if he'd spoken to all the "living" presidents.
"I have spoken to all of them who are living," he responded. "I didn’t want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing about doing any séances."
He was apparently confusing stories about Reagan's consulting with an astrologer with those about other First Ladies -- from Mary Todd Lincoln to Hillary Clinton -- who tried to make contact with figures from the past.
by scarygirl » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:26 am
Michigan Girl wrote:Rhiannon wrote:Enigma869 wrote:Rhiannon wrote:Surely they wouldn't be that insane as to put Palin up against a dem incumbent.
In my opinion, Palin won't ever run for POTUS. This woman can't figure out whether or not Africa is a country or a continent, and we're going to elect her president? Then again, the morons of Alaska elected her and just re-elected Stevens who was convicted of a felony. No wonder people around the world think Americans are dopes!
Palin is a perfect fit for town mayor, reading "Where the Wild Things Are" to five year olds at the library once per month. She'd be great at organizing a county-wide bake sale to raise funds for little Billy who had a 4-wheeler accident. A true politician has to be a hardened, sharp, venomous creature in order to protect themselves and their job. Don't take this the wrong way, but she's too "cute" to lead a nation. She might be strong, who am I to judge, and I'd say she probably is a great woman. But president? She wouldn't last a day. Case in point comparison... Hillary could do it. Hillary is also a cold bitch who will chew you up. Palin would be the one with the band-aid for your "boo-boo".
I will have to disagree with the bolded, Very Much, so I guess I might be taking it the wrong way.
As far as strength, she looked as though she had been crying during McCain's speech, not a good sign!!
by The_Noble_Cause » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:29 pm
Fact Finder wrote:...the totally classless slam at Nancy Reagan.
by weatherman90 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:41 pm
by The_Noble_Cause » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:08 pm
weatherman90 wrote:I thought it was a very tasteless joke - if this is any preview of "the One's" sense of humor then we are in for a long 4 years.
by Barb » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:19 pm
weatherman90 wrote:I thought it was a very tasteless joke - if this is any preview of "the One's" sense of humor then we are in for a long 4 years.
by Enigma869 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:25 pm
Fact Finder wrote: This guy may give W a run on stringing a few sentences together.
by The_Noble_Cause » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:35 pm
Barb wrote:How "Presidential" of that one. Mocking a woman who is about 800 years old and frail as can be. Was that really necessary?
by Jana » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:39 pm
by Barb » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:43 pm
Jana wrote:It was announced today Obama called Nancy Reagan and apologized for his remark and expressed his admiration and affection that so many Americans share and said they had a warm conversation. So all is well. It was a stupid remark, guaranteed. It too shall pass. Bigger fish to fry.
by The_Noble_Cause » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:02 pm
Barb wrote:Glad he had the sense to apologize. BTW... wasn't it Hillary Clinton who admitted to having seances in the WH to talk to Eleanor Roosevelt? I thought Nancy's thing was astrology.
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