Is Steve Augeri tone deaf?

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Postby donnaplease » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:39 am

ChildInTime wrote:

2. I don't think he's is as scheming and conspiring as you make him out to be, dude. I won't say he doesn't have issues; he does, but I don't think he's sitting at a desk, rubbing his hands together and laughing maniacally thinking up new evil schemes either. (Though that is a funny image... :lol:)




Exactly my point. Too many people like to make definitive statements about the circumstances surrounding who did what to whom, but none of us were there to know the details. Saying things like SP had NO intention of touring is pure conjecture, and I personally don't believe it. Did he bail on them for the last tour? Apparently he did. Did he have a legitimate medical condition, or was he lazy, scared or otherwise just didn't wanna leave his LaJolla home? I don't really know, and neither does Dan or almost anyone else here. What I do know is that he has every right to continue to make money off of Journey. Like it or not, Steve Perry is synonymous with Journey. Neither he nor the band would be anything to speak of without the other. And it's true to this day, even though he's been out of circulation for all these years. Maybe he was a nightmare to work with back then (we know he was a royal ass to little Stuie), but we don't know that today. By all recent accounts, he's been a pleasure to work with. In that same vein, Neal continues to make an ass of himself by giving little "fuck him" and "I didn't know he was lipping" statements. :roll:

I proudly admit that I'm a card-carrying loon, but I honestly don't consider myself an uber-loon who won't acknowledge any of SPs faults. He has plenty, I'm sure. I just feel like he should be praised for what he did contribute to the band, and not be ridiculed at every turn. Dan, I remember how excited you were when you thought the news of JSS' ouster meant that SP was re-joining the band. Just the thought of how happy you sounded when we talked about it still makes me smile. So I justdon't understand why you so bitterly attack him every chance you get now. :?
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Postby donnaplease » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:40 am

steveo777 wrote:
donnaplease wrote:
steveo777 wrote:
Oh, he is and he is petting a large white cat with green eyes while he is doing it! LMAO! :lol: :lol:


Ok, I'm totally envisioning Dr. Evil here. Anyone good at photoshop wanna take a crack at that one? :twisted:


Oh yes! I would love this if someone could do it. It can't be that hard to put SP's head on Dr. E, infact, while they are at it they can do the same to Minnie Me. :D


Better yet, photoshop Arnel's face on Mini-me... :twisted:
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Postby Author2 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:51 pm

parfait wrote:
Saint John wrote:I think the only person that "saved" this band was Neal Schon. To have to pick up the pieces that Nostrildamus left behind (again ... intentionally), look for another lead singer and fight legally to get back what was essentially stolen from you, knowing that regardless of your choice for the new lead singer he was going to get tarred and feathered by a certian sement of the fan base, took a lot of balls. But he did it and the two ensuing incarnations with Augeri and Pineda have done quite well and kept the music alive and the catlog selling, and Revelation sold extremely well in today's itunes generation and Arrival is a pretty solid album as well.


Ding ding ding! We have a winner!


I read on this board and the Rolling Stone article about that lipping done by Journey - Neal, Steve A., Deen, Cain and Ross at the time, to deceive the fans. That seems to have been intentional for I didn't read anything about flipping a switch by mistake. I guess Neal was also able to pick up those pieces and save the band, huh? Were there any legal ramifications from that?

I think Steve Perry saved the band from being axed by Sony, but unfortunately the band didn't do likewise for him at a time when he needed them. Steve Perry toured excessively for the time he was with the band and gave his all when he had it to give thus contributed greatly in having a catalog to be selling. Now, the band seems to want or need to recreate the past in a rather sickly manner, I think. Do you think this and the lipping will garner them any R&RHOF brownie points?

"the Steve Perry of the Philippines," as its new lead singer.

Journey guitarist Neal Schon, who wants the band to get back to what it used to sound like in the Steve Perry era, gets the credit for finding Pineda.

From Pineda's perspective, he's not trying to be Steve Perry, one of his idols, but he's trying to sound as much like him as he can.
"We have to make sure the hard-core fans will be satisfied listening to the songs," he said. "They're so used to Steve Perry's voice, so we have to be really close to how Steve Perry has done it. That's the hardest part." 12/2007

What music would Augeri and Pineda be keeping alive - Arrival, Red13 or Revelation? I think those greatest hits are still selling like hotcakes. Sony, Monster.., Sopranos, Glee, X-factor and Steve Perry (singer and co-writer) all have a part too in keeping it alive. I hear those songs (with Perry) constantly on the radio every day all day long and that sells music. And it seems at the shows, when I was there and from reading, that old songs glitters and new songs sitters.

I would say that maybe one day you'll respect Steve Perry's time and contributions and respectfully use his name, and realize that whatever may/maynot have happen, Neal and others were equally responsible, but I guess not.
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Postby Saint John » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:08 pm

It's stupid to even argue with you dolts. Schon and Co. were most certainly guilty of deception with Tapegate but Perry has had to become a recluse and can't even do interviews because he's wrapped himself up in 2+ decades of lies and can't answer any questions regarding Journey without putting his foot in his nose so he uses "privacy" as a veiled and weak disguise. I'd bet my fucking life that Schon would have no problem sitting down and airing out all of the bullshit from 1986 and 1996 in front of the world. You think Nostrildamus would do that? Not in a million fucking years. He'd come out looking the backstabbing shitty bandmate he was that also has a problem with committments and the truth.
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Postby donnaplease » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:18 pm

Saint John wrote:It's stupid to even argue with you dolts. Schon and Co. were most certainly guilty of deception with Tapegate but Perry has had to become a recluse and can't even do interviews because he's wrapped himself up in 2+ decades of lies and can't answer any questions regarding Journey without putting his foot in his nose so he uses "privacy" as a veiled and weak disguise. I'd bet my fucking life that Schon would have no problem sitting down and airing out all of the bullshit from 1986 and 1996 in front of the world. You think Nostrildamus would do that? Not in a million fucking years. He'd come out looking the backstabbing shitty bandmate he was that also has a problem with committments and the truth.


You're right, dear, it is stupid to argue with us. You make accusations and call them facts, when in reality you know no more than anyone else here (even those that claim to have an inside track to the band). I have no facts, only my thoughts and beliefs. Your insults do nothing to change those thoughts and beliefs, they only make me dig my heels in and stand firmer on them because you don't give a well-reasoned argument, only insults (if I didn't know better, I'd swear you were a liberal). So thanks, I appreciate ya!!! :twisted:
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Postby ChildInTime » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:12 pm

Saint John wrote:It's stupid to even argue with you dolts. Schon and Co. were most certainly guilty of deception with Tapegate but Perry has had to become a recluse and can't even do interviews because he's wrapped himself up in 2+ decades of lies and can't answer any questions regarding Journey without putting his foot in his nose so he uses "privacy" as a veiled and weak disguise. I'd bet my fucking life that Schon would have no problem sitting down and airing out all of the bullshit from 1986 and 1996 in front of the world. You think Nostrildamus would do that? Not in a million fucking years. He'd come out looking the backstabbing shitty bandmate he was that also has a problem with committments and the truth.


Pfft. It's ok. even if I'm not cool in your books, you're still cool in mine for coining the term "Nostrildamus". :lol: (Even if it does get "Nostradamus" by Judas Priest stuck in my head every single time.) Like I said, though, I didn't say the dude was an angel or that he didn't do any dickheaded moves. I just don't like the whole conspiracy theory angle. :P
*open mouth, insert foot*
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Postby Author2 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:16 pm

RobbieG wrote:
Saint John wrote:
donnaplease wrote:Dan, I love ya, but you're full of shit! Neal Schon was more than content to sit back and let someone else run the show as long as he could do whatever he wanted to do. Hell, didn't he even say that he doesn't even pay attention to what's going on around him, and that's why he never knew that SA was lipping? :roll: WTF pieces did SP leave behind? A Grammy nomination??? Fight legally??? Again, bullshit. SP was the one who had to fight legally to maintain whatever part of the the legacy he created with this band, and he was smart enough to do a damned good job apparently. Furthermore, your failure to acknowledge JSS' participation (albeit brief) in allowing this band to continue was just jacked up. It allowed you to continue your 'journey' didn't it? How many shows did you go to with JSS singing that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to see? I don't for one second credit Neal for anything except being a damned good guitar player. He's got a lotta balls, alright, but I don't mean that as a compliment. I personally think he's one unscrupulous SOB, however talented he may be. Another thing, it could be argued that SP's participation in the remasters, etc is partially what has kept them in circulation. It is my feeling that he did that because he honors the 'legacy' of the music and what was created by the entire group. The fact that Neal would sully that by allowing the remakes says alot about what he thinks of the history of the band, IMO.

I don't mind being part of the 'certain segment of the fanbase', because I feel in my heart that it is the truth. It drives me crazy that people continuously trash SP. Dan, when are you going to acknowledge what a bastard of a person Neal really is? You know, you can love a person and still hate some of the thing that they do...


Perry left Journey high and dry in 1986 because he was toast ... yet he immediately turned around and began recording Against The Wall less than a year later. They sat around waiting for him and pulled the ultimate cracking of the stone by going out by himself and singing music the band Journey made famous together. Furthermore, when he made himself unavailable to them and they decided to move on with Rolie and Chalfant, he once again felt like singing and verbally committed to a tour that he never had any plans of fulfilling. To make sure the destruction was complete when he left he made sure to fire Herbert knowing full well that Irving Azoff wouldn't give a shit about restructuring a 25 year old band without their lead singer. To make matters worse, he cleverly wrestled enough control to make them PAY him NOT to tour when Augeri was hired. Neal had to tackle finding a singer to replace the band's most recognizable member and tour when a lot of people would have rather heard Perry ... the guy that was more interested in touring with half-ass musicians rather than the guys he made great music with.

Soto is a non-entity in Journey's history. He filled in for a tour and was a non-impact. He picked up no new fans and brought no new fans. He did a nice job filling in, was paid well and the band moved on.

As for Schon, I'm sure he's been a jagoff to work with, but at the end of the day he wants to write, record and tour. I find it amazing that throughout the long history of Journey that every single member has gotten along with Neal Schon ... except two. That says a lot. Perry has never worked with anyone more than once and is seen as an unreliable, enigmatic recluse in music circles. I perosnally saw Steve Smith roll his eyes in disgust when asked about Perry and I saw David Pack get up and leave a meet and greet when the word "Perry" was mentioned. No one likes that guy.[/quote
]


SJ you are right on. Perry is a great talent but the man is hard to work with. It's funny when I spoke to Smitty years ago he also rolled his eyes when I mentioned Perry. Schon is a good guy and you really need to get to know him to find that out. The man loves to play period. Again good post SJ

:D :D :D



Hey, let me in on this hearsay. "It's funny when I spoke to Smitty years ago he also rolled his eyes when I mentioned" Neal. So funny that you two have the same convenient hearsay. Not a fan of hearsay, guess-say or speculate-say. SJ were you in meetings and discussions with them or are you just rambling as usual? When did you and Robbie work with SP?

Perry left Journey in 1987 (ROR 80 shows and was that just part 1?) after touring excessively for almost ten years, and said he was toast. If he did start working on another solo album, my only thought would be that maybe he should have given it a shot sooner. It seems there was a meeting with the guys and also spoken of on that VH1 thing.. This was posted and discussed back in 12/2006 thread:

Here are a few quotes from the interview:

"(In '87 Steve Perry) didn't want us waiting on him six to eight months down the road, a solo album later, to tell us that he wasn't ready for Journey because it wasn't in his gut to do so. He came clean with me, and said, "Hey, I can't do it again. I don't feel like I have what it takes to do another album for some reason....
He was the leader of the show who finally said, "No more!" We couldn't go on without him. Rather than talking about putting a new Journey together without Steve Perry, rather than forging ahead and trying to put a facelift on the situation like so many bands in the past have tried to do but failed miserably at, Neal and I chose to leave the legacy alive, and that's not taking anything away from the two of us, Journey is just not recognized as Journey without Steve Perry singing the music."
I know Stephen didn't make the decision to leave Journey overnight. He really thought about this from his heart. I don't want Steve Perry's confusion to come across as the only reason Journey broke up."

So was there confusion on your part and that of Neal's?

"All I can say is that collectively, all of us are held responsible for the outcome of the band....
At least Stephen had the guts to say he couldn't do it anymore. Someday, hopefully, he'll figure out why, but now he can't."

And this was after your heart to heart talk with Perry?

"We spoke non-stop for four hours. That's about as heart to heart as you can get. It was the last five minutes however where Stephen said basically, this is it. I admired him for being honest and saying it the way it was."

And how was it?

"It wasn't going to happen, and he didn't want to hang up Neal's life, or my own, on whether or not he was going to participate on a Journey album. He didn't want to leave us with the impression that Journey was going to happen. He knows Journey was a great thing for all of us. However, he felt itwas time to go our separate ways."

Excerpts: QUEEN guitarist Brian May has posted the following message on his web site 6/2007:

"I was actually moved to write a new page tonight [early hours of June 14], by thinking about our great pal, Jeff Scott Soto. Many of you have been writing to me about the shock of seeing him suddenly erased from the JOURNEY website, as if he had never existed. It's a strange place that I view this from. JOURNEY are, in a way, in a very similar position to ourselves. They have a legacy of hits which people will always want to hear played live. And their singer all through their golden age can no longer perform with them (Steve Perry, a truly luminous singer, in my opinion — a voice in a million). So the JOURNEY guys (I wrote about them just a couple of months ago when they visited — Neal Schon is a fabulous player and an esteemed friend of mine) have a similarly difficult and maddeningly set of options to juggle.

"When I saw JOURNEY this year, live in London, I felt excited, because I felt they had taken Option 4 by the horns. Knowing Jeff, I knew that he had jumped in without a parachute — he turned around the whole direction of his life, not only into being a worthy part of a great band, but pushing ahead, experimenting, looking for ways to be new, within the framework. I was truly astounded by his range, power, and interpretations, and his contact with the audience. The band looked energised - even dangerous. How cool.

"Well, now we get a shock. I know in my heart Jeff would never have walked out on this — he is way too loyal. It saddens me that he seems to [have] been shed like a used pair of boots. Those boots sure covered some good ground. You know, for all the reasons above, it's understandable that JOURNEY might decide to make a U-turn. I just hope that they will be man enough to say so if this is the case, rather than hiding behind some kind of pretence that it was a mutual decision. That's an integrity thing, and a karma thing. You have to own yer own poo. And I hope they will see fit to recognise Jeff's lasting contribution to the family, and realise that he deserves to be treated with respect. And ... I desperately hope they don't go down that other road: JOURNEY is worth a whole lot more than Option 2."


Saint John - Do you want to answer this question for Augeri's fan?

October 2009
Open letter to ANY OF THE BAND MEMBERS..just curious why there was absolutely NO mention of Steve Augeri being in the band for 8 of the 10 years it took you to find Arnel? I'm not here to start trouble. I just find it odd is all. I mean me having been a fan of this band ONLY because of Augeri and yet according to "Journey's Story" he didn't even exist, I just find it odd that he wasn't mentioned...twice now. WHY?

Saint John - This guy thought and me too thought SP's band was very talented:

"Perry performs with new, talented band" Boston Herald 1994
"He's assembled a crack quartet of young bucks, including Paul Taylor (keyboards/guitars), Todd Jensen (bass), Moyes Lucas Jr. (drums), and 23-year-old wunderkind lead guitarist Lincoln Brewster, and they provided him with tight, clean backing. Brewster's one to watch. He laid out some impressive solos with what seemed to be ridiculous ease."

It seems throughout Journey's history Neal has had problems dealing with issues. Herbie thought of him as a son. Let's not forget the lipping. Looks like Neal is starting another band - NAMM. Would that stand for Nother Aimless Mission of Mine? Yes, he does love to play and play and play, and maybe expects everyone else to feel that way. If your fans badger you about your excessive solos and you tell them to stay home and listen to the records, there seems to be a problem right there.
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Postby donnaplease » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:55 pm

Wow! I'd call that 'game, set, match'!!! :twisted:

Good work, A2!!! :wink:
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Postby marco17 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:11 am

Amazing.... how does a SA thread become people fighting about Perry...WTF?!?!?!?!? Isn't that why Andrew started the Perry forum?
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:38 am

ChildInTime wrote:1. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that he began recording the Against the Wall stuff BEFORE RoR, and tried to RELEASE it after leaving Journey.


You are wrong. The liner notes of GH directly quote him as saying in January '88 he began recording ATW. That puts it less than a year out of being "toast."
"I love almost everybody."---Rocky Balboa 1990
"Let's reform this thing.Let's go out and get some guys who want to work and go do it"--Neal Schon February, 2001
"I looked at Neal, and I just saw a guy who really wants his band back"-JCain 2/01
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:48 am

Author2 wrote:Perry left Journey in 1987 (ROR 80 shows and was that just part 1?) after touring excessively for almost ten years, and said he was toast. If he did start working on another solo album, my only thought would be that maybe he should have given it a shot sooner. It seems there was a meeting with the guys and also spoken of on that VH1 thing.. This was posted and discussed back in 12/2006 thread:

Here are a few quotes from the interview:

"(In '87 Steve Perry) didn't want us waiting on him six to eight months down the road, a solo album later, to tell us that he wasn't ready for Journey because it wasn't in his gut to do so. He came clean with me, and said, "Hey, I can't do it again. I don't feel like I have what it takes to do another album for some reason....
He was the leader of the show who finally said, "No more!" We couldn't go on without him. Rather than talking about putting a new Journey together without Steve Perry, rather than forging ahead and trying to put a facelift on the situation like so many bands in the past have tried to do but failed miserably at, Neal and I chose to leave the legacy alive, and that's not taking anything away from the two of us, Journey is just not recognized as Journey without Steve Perry singing the music."
I know Stephen didn't make the decision to leave Journey overnight. He really thought about this from his heart. I don't want Steve Perry's confusion to come across as the only reason Journey broke up."

So was there confusion on your part and that of Neal's?

"All I can say is that collectively, all of us are held responsible for the outcome of the band....
At least Stephen had the guts to say he couldn't do it anymore. Someday, hopefully, he'll figure out why, but now he can't."

And this was after your heart to heart talk with Perry?

"We spoke non-stop for four hours. That's about as heart to heart as you can get. It was the last five minutes however where Stephen said basically, this is it. I admired him for being honest and saying it the way it was."

And how was it?

"It wasn't going to happen, and he didn't want to hang up Neal's life, or my own, on whether or not he was going to participate on a Journey album. He didn't want to leave us with the impression that Journey was going to happen. He knows Journey was a great thing for all of us. However, he felt itwas time to go our separate ways."



What is the source and date of that "interview" please? Also I assume the "quotes" are attributed to Cain, though I can't actually tell.
"I love almost everybody."---Rocky Balboa 1990
"Let's reform this thing.Let's go out and get some guys who want to work and go do it"--Neal Schon February, 2001
"I looked at Neal, and I just saw a guy who really wants his band back"-JCain 2/01
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Postby Abitaman » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:18 am

I have been a Journey and Steve Perry fan for years and years. I would buy new music by both. It doesn't matter if Perry wanted out of the band in 87 to leave the leagacy intact or to go solo. It doesn't matter if he came back withm the intent to leave again, or if he really hurt his hip. What mattered then and matters now, is that Journey (without Perry) wants to keep playing THEIR songs, and keep writing new music. One man does not make a band, one man can be an image for a band, but he is not the band. What it comes down too is Neal and Jon liked playing togther (Bad English anyone), and wanted to keep playing together. Neal and Ross have a right to the Joureny name more than anyone. Jon and Gregg do to as does Perry. But Neal is keeping the Journey going. Steve can too by getting out there and touring. Journey isn't playing Perry's solo songs are they? No!! Journey is playing Journey songs. There is nothing wrong with trying to get someone who can sound like Perry (but still needs to have his own personalllity). So why is everyone complaining, Journey can do Journey and Steve can do Journey.....

So maybe that is why people are complaing is because Journey is doing Journey and Perry ainto doing crap but mixing old songs and trying to find ways to put his old songs in a movie, oops not his songs, I mean Journeys songs.

So Steve hurry up and do something, I don't care if it is sing the phone book. Release a cd, do a show or two, release a live cd then a live dvd, and sony can make ten more hits and best ofs for years to come making the loons happy, and Journey can carry on and do their thing with out the loons putting the band down (kind of doubt that part :D )
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Postby Michigan Girl » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:22 am

Author...is that from the "everytime he sings he bleeds a little", interview~the JC quotes?!?! :wink:
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Postby Saint John » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:11 am

Author2 wrote:Not a fan of hearsay, guess-say or speculate-say.


I don't give a fuck what you're a fan of. I was there and I know what I saw. Whether or not you choose to belive me is totally out of my hands.



Author2 wrote:SJ were you in meetings and discussions with them or are you just rambling as usual? When did you and Robbie work with SP?


The old plausible deniability clause ... the calling card of The Insane Asylum. Listen, I never worked with Richard Ramirez, but I feel comfortable with saying he's a maniacal asshole! The same holds true here ... just to a much lesser degree.


Author2 wrote:QUEEN guitarist Brian May has posted the following message on his web site 6/2007


Brian May is a fucking windbag blowhard. He touts Jeff Scott Cherone like he's the second coming just like Steve Lukather did, but when the opportunity arose for them to fill their lead singer position with him they suddenly had amnesia! I'd call them good friends and nice references, but that's about it!

And, hey, Jeff Scott Cherone didn't have any problem accepting the lead singer position. Nor did he have any problem opening up the band's business to his cronies. Problem is, intentional or not, that information was spread on this board like a pair of whorehouse legs. It was only when the tour was over and they decided to go in a different direction that he had a problem with the guys. Seems hypocritical at best. That guy seems best served to just sing.


Author2 wrote:Saint John - Do you want to answer this question for Augeri's fans?


Steve Augeri's a big boy and doesn't seem to have a problem with it so neither do I. If those were indeed the band's true feelings for all of those years then I guess, per usual, Neal is guilty of being overly loyal again. He held out for Perry for 7 years only to be knifed in the back when he toured with a gaggle of shitbums, welcomed him back in 1996 only to be fucked again and I thought he held on to Augeri for far too long and that Augeri should have stepped down or been let go. That ended in an ugly fashion and there was certainly a lot of blame to go around (mainly management, Schon and Cain). And guess what, if the reports were correct that Perry was still a paid member and equal partner he shares in the blame too. You fuckers can't have your cake and eat it to. If Perry was collecting checks and was an equal partner (which all accounts say he was up until 2008) in the touring revenue, and was willing to legally bully Neal Sodom and Jon Gomorrah into paying his lazy ass, then he too can shoulder some of the fucking blame. If you're part of the corporation then you're also part of the blame for a fraudulent production. Period. Perry=part owner of Tapegate. I love it that you fuckers fell face first into a steamy pile of dogshit. Enjoy!



Author2 wrote:Saint John - This guy thought and me too thought SP's band was very talented


Yeah ... so fucking what?!?! "The Family" thought Charles Manson was talented! What's your point???



Author2 wrote:It seems throughout Journey's history Neal has had problems dealing with issues.


Tapegate is the only instance that comes to mind. Other than that he's never had to deal with re-entering the Earth's atmosphere without heat tiles, has always felt like a part of the band and has 2 good hips!
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Postby slucero » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:37 am

Image

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
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Postby steveo777 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:46 am

slucero wrote:Image



Same shit, different day, huh? :roll:

We really need something new to talk about and my money is on Journey producing something new before SP does. :D
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Postby donnaplease » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:56 am

Saint John wrote:Tapegate is the only instance that comes to mind. Other than that he's never had to deal with re-entering the Earth's atmosphere without heat tiles, has always felt like a part of the band and has 2 good hips!


He sucks at personal relationships and his face is made of plastic. :x

Dan, have you never been burned out by something? (Not of the dried, leafy variety either... :P ) As someone who has been dealing with some workplace burnout, I can only begin to imagine what it would be like to feel that and have the eyes of the world on you. He has said he made some bad decisions, and if I'm not mistaken he also said if he could do them all over again he would likely do them differently. IDK what's going on inside him right now, whether he's just teasing us as some folks suggest, or if there is a mental/emotional thing that is keeping him from jumping in with both feet. From someone with so much God-given talent, much is expected, and the weight of that has got to be incredible. With nothing other than my own personal viewpoint based on all I've read, seen & heard, I believe it's possible that SP may have a form of PTSD related to performing. And before anyone jumps in and tells me how crazy I am (crazy as a loon), I realize it's my own opinion and no one has to agree with it.

I'd like to say to folks to judge the men based on their actions in relation to CURRENT events, and I certainly use that to form my own conclusions, but I understand that lots of people feel like they can't do that because they don't know what the hell is going on with SP. I have no answer to that. I just don't like the blasting of the man for what he may or may not have done 20 years ago. It seems to be a sport to some people, and I think it's just mean. :cry:
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Postby portland » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:59 am

donnaplease wrote:
Saint John wrote:Tapegate is the only instance that comes to mind. Other than that he's never had to deal with re-entering the Earth's atmosphere without heat tiles, has always felt like a part of the band and has 2 good hips!


He sucks at personal relationships and his face is made of plastic. :x

Dan, have you never been burned out by something? (Not of the dried, leafy variety either... :P ) As someone who has been dealing with some workplace burnout, I can only begin to imagine what it would be like to feel that and have the eyes of the world on you. He has said he made some bad decisions, and if I'm not mistaken he also said if he could do them all over again he would likely do them differently. IDK what's going on inside him right now, whether he's just teasing us as some folks suggest, or if there is a mental/emotional thing that is keeping him from jumping in with both feet. From someone with so much God-given talent, much is expected, and the weight of that has got to be incredible. With nothing other than my own personal viewpoint based on all I've read, seen & heard, I believe it's possible that SP may have a form of PTSD related to performing. And before anyone jumps in and tells me how crazy I am (crazy as a loon), I realize it's my own opinion and no one has to agree with it.

I'd like to say to folks to judge the men based on their actions in relation to CURRENT events, and I certainly use that to form my own conclusions, but I understand that lots of people feel like they can't do that because they don't know what the hell is going on with SP. I have no answer to that. I just don't like the blasting of the man for what he may or may not have done 20 years ago. It seems to be a sport to some people, and I think it's just mean. :cry:





OMG....ya think!!!! :lol:
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Postby Saint John » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:21 pm

donnaplease wrote:
Saint John wrote:Tapegate is the only instance that comes to mind. Other than that he's never had to deal with re-entering the Earth's atmosphere without heat tiles, has always felt like a part of the band and has 2 good hips!


He sucks at personal relationships and his face is made of plastic. :x

Dan, have you never been burned out by something? (Not of the dried, leafy variety either... :P ) As someone who has been dealing with some workplace burnout, I can only begin to imagine what it would be like to feel that and have the eyes of the world on you. He has said he made some bad decisions, and if I'm not mistaken he also said if he could do them all over again he would likely do them differently. IDK what's going on inside him right now, whether he's just teasing us as some folks suggest, or if there is a mental/emotional thing that is keeping him from jumping in with both feet. From someone with so much God-given talent, much is expected, and the weight of that has got to be incredible. With nothing other than my own personal viewpoint based on all I've read, seen & heard, I believe it's possible that SP may have a form of PTSD related to performing. And before anyone jumps in and tells me how crazy I am (crazy as a loon), I realize it's my own opinion and no one has to agree with it.

I'd like to say to folks to judge the men based on their actions in relation to CURRENT events, and I certainly use that to form my own conclusions, but I understand that lots of people feel like they can't do that because they don't know what the hell is going on with SP. I have no answer to that. I just don't like the blasting of the man for what he may or may not have done 20 years ago. It seems to be a sport to some people, and I think it's just mean. :cry:


Perry's the greatest singer ever to walk to this planet and was as much a driving force behind Journey as any one man. However, he was given the keys to the car and that car was Neal's. Perry was allowed to drive it for as long as he wanted and as fast as he wanted ... and he did it incredibly well and only recklessly for a short time at the end. However, when he pulled over and decided he was tired of driving it was his duty to give the keys back to the fucking owner! But he couldn't ... and when he started driving a Yugo with some rag-tag road dogs, Neal decided to get himself a new driver. But then Steve wanted to drive again. And he did. He took Neal, Jon, Ross and Smitty and jumped out as they went over a cliff with Herbie in the trunk. That's class. :roll:
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Postby Ehwmatt » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:00 pm

PTSD from performing? Holllllllyyyy fuckin shit. That's an embarrassment that sells short the unfortunate ones who suffer real PTSD from watching friends' legs get blown off by land mines and having to kill people. I assume you're being figurative, but my god, that's not even an appropriate figure of speech there. It's one step removed from equating a relatively light event to the fuckin Holocaust.

The bottom line is the guy quit. I love SP, don't care much for Arnel, but the guy flat out quit and continues to tease people. Maybe it's laziness, perfectionism, an inability to do it anymore, a combination of things, who knows, but the guy flat out quit. His refusal to contribute anything to his profession other than a remix of one concert in 15 years and one backing vocal is really pretty fuckin sad and indefensible. The guy was too damn good to just quit like he did and leave us high and dry when nearly all of his contemporaries and even those performers who are older than him and much more road-weary have mostly continued to go out there. Hell, look at Lou fuckin Gramm.

I'm sorry, but I just can't ever respect a quitter.
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Postby donnaplease » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:20 pm

Ehwmatt wrote:PTSD from performing? Holllllllyyyy fuckin shit. That's an embarrassment that sells short the unfortunate ones who suffer real PTSD from watching friends' legs get blown off by land mines and having to kill people. I assume you're being figurative, but my god, that's not even an appropriate figure of speech there. It's one step removed from equating a relatively light event to the fuckin Holocaust.

The bottom line is the guy quit. I love SP, don't care much for Arnel, but the guy flat out quit and continues to tease people. Maybe it's laziness, perfectionism, an inability to do it anymore, a combination of things, who knows, but the guy flat out quit. His refusal to contribute anything to his profession other than a remix of one concert in 15 years and one backing vocal is really pretty fuckin sad and indefensible. The guy was too damn good to just quit like he did and leave us high and dry when nearly all of his contemporaries and even those performers who are older than him and much more road-weary have mostly continued to go out there. Hell, look at Lou fuckin Gramm.

I'm sorry, but I just can't ever respect a quitter.


Matt, you don't have to be a jerk about it, but for the sake of argument, how about Stage Fright instead of PTSD??? (And I did say 'a form of 'PTSD related to performing - it seemed pretty self-explanatory to me, but perhaps I'm wrong. Either way, stage fright is a better description).

Read this and tell me if it could possibly be true given what we know about SP...

THE PSYCHOLOGY OF PERFORMING ARTS:
STAGE FRIGHT AND OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE

Stage fright or 'performance anxiety' is an exaggerated and more or less debilitating fear of public appearance. It ranges from mild distress to total panic and frequently impedes career development in the performing arts and professions that require public speaking. Like other phobias it is not amenable to reason. Exhorting a sufferer to 'pull themselves together', like a pair of curtains, is unlikely to help.

Stage fright is felt by most amateurs to some degree but is not correlated with talent or ability. Nor does it necessarily diminish with experience or accomplishment. Some top pros have been troubled by it well into their careers. At the height of his fame, Laurence Olivier suffered from almost incapacitating stage fright. During a run of Othello he was so terrified of his soliloquies that he asked another actor to stand just offstage so he 'would not feel so alone'. Richard Burton shook and sweated before going on stage for Equus, fearing that he had 'lost the ability to command'. Barbra Streisand was unable to sing live concerts for 27 years after once forgetting her words during a concert at New York's Central Park. Carly Simon used to stick pins in her hand before a performance to distract herself from her anxiety and once asked the entire brass section of the band to spank her just before the curtain rose.

Perhaps the problem faced by famous performers is that expectations, both their own and those of their audiences, are raised so high that they doubt their ability to live up to them. Once on the top of the pedestal the only way left to go is down. There may also be awareness of failing faculties and youngsters snapping at their heels.

Stage fright is characterised by an intense feeling of being subject to public scrutiny combined with a belief that one is likely to fail to deliver. All the adrenaline effects that accompany fear are experienced, including 'butterflies' in the stomach, dry mouth, palpitation, sweaty palms, dizziness, shortness of breath, stammering, and inability to think clearly. These are due to activation of the general fight/flight emergency system that is part of our evolutionary heritage and which would have survival value if fighting or running away from an audience were appropriate. It is as though, in the human world, social isolation has such serious consequences that fear of sabre tooth tigers has given way to a dread of public humiliation.

Harvard sociobiologist E.O. Wilson says that, for our ancestors, being intently scrutinised and singled out was often a prelude to being eaten by a predator, hence our dread of losing the protection of the group. It is therefore important to keep a sense of proportion. The audience are not predators - they may kill us but they almost certainly won't eat us.

The problems associated with stage fright are widespread. A study of students and staff at the University of Iowa School of Music yielded the following percentages:
21% 'experienced marked distress'
40% 'moderate distress'
17% 'marked impairment'
30% 'moderate impairment'
9% 'often avoided performance opportunities'
13% 'interrupted a performance at least once'
15% 'sought professional help'

Musicians seem particularly vulnerable. My own research found that nearly half of musicians suffered from stage fright at one time or another compared with about a third of actors, singers and dancers. This may be because the requirements of musical performance are more exacting than those of other performers; mistakes are likely to be conspicuous. I was in the audience at the Hollywood Bowl one night when, unforgettably, the pianist hit the wrong chord in the opening of the Tchaikovsky piano Concerto. This, of course, stood out like a sore thumb (perhaps it was because he had one).

Solos are worse than group performances because the level of felt scrutiny and self-consciousness is much higher. It has been shown that anxiety diminishes logarithmically with the number of fellow performers that are available to hide among. Auditions and competitions are more stressful than performance itself, even opening night. This is because the evaluation factor is substantially higher; by the time of the performance you at least have the reassurance that somebody has picked you for the part.

The effects of stress or arousal on performance quality are described in the Yerkes-Dodson Law. Performance improves with increases in arousal up to a certain point, after which there is a decline, yielding an inverted-U function relating arousal and performance. The optimal point is reached more rapidly when the task is cognitively complex (needing a clear head) rather than energy expenditure. Something it may help performers to know is that the best performances (objectively assessed) occur at a level of arousal that is felt as uncomfortable to themselves.

The Yerkes-Dodson Law may be extended to a three-dimensional model, in which three major groups of variables are considered in predicting when anxiety is likely to go 'over the top'. (1) the trait anxiety of the performer - the constitutional and learned tendency for certain individuals, more than others, to become anxious under conditions of social stress. (2) the degree of task mastery that has been achieved - works that are intrinsically simple or so well-prepared that they have become so are less susceptible to disruption by anxiety than those that are complex or under-rehearsed. (3) the situational stress prevailing, e.g., special pressures like solos, auditions, competitions or important public performances.

Hardy & Parfitt (1991) argue that a catastrophe model fits best both in sport and performing arts. Once anxiety goes 'over the top' and disaster is sensed there may be a precipitous downturn in the performance with little chance of retrieval. This is most likely to occur when cognitive anxiety is high as opposed to bodily agitation. Clearly, worries about whether the performance will be successful and fears of the consequences of failure, are more likely to lead to a collapse of concentration and memory than increased bodily arousal due to exercise or coffee. Mental anxiety may produce a vicious spiral whereby failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, early mistakes leading to an escalating pattern of distraction and worry.

Catastrophe theory fits research on the destructive self-talk of musicians (Steptoe & Fidler, 1987). The most detrimental style of pre-performance thinking they called catastrophising(e.g., I think I am going to faint; I'm sure to make a dreadful mistake and that will ruin everything). The best kind of self-talk was realistic appraisal (I'm bound to make a few mistakes, but so does everyone; the audience wants me to play well and will make allowance for a few slips; I'll concentrate on technical aspects of the music and the interpretation I've prepared). Not surprisingly, performers who catastrophise are most prone to stage fright. Realistic appraisal, showed the classic curvilinear relationship with performance anxiety, being used most by those with moderate (optimal) levels of anxiety.

Performance may be disrupted by many types of irrational, negative thoughts:
Over-generalization: 'I never...' 'I always...'
All-or-nothing thinking: 'I am either a star or a loser...'
Disqualifying the positive: 'They liked my performance, but what do they know?'
Self-reference: 'Whatever is said about my performance is about me'
Superstition:'Without my pre-performance ritual I can't perform well.'
Catastrophising: 'Once I make a mistake I'll never get back on track.'

A potentially harmful strategy of 'hedging bets' that is adopted by some performers is called self-handicapping. It begins with advance excuses along the following lines:
'I have a sore throat at the moment'
'I've never seen this music before.'
'My teacher demands an interpretation that doesn't suit me.'
'I would have done better if I hadn't had a late night.'

Such pessimistic self-talk easily becomes self-fulfilling prophecy, increasing the need for an excuse. The next step is self-sabotage, e.g., failing to attend rehearsals, damaging one's own instrument, or deliberately getting drunk before a performance. Susceptible individuals need to watch for signs of self-handicapping in themselves and insert positive strategies.

http://www.gresham.ac.uk/printtranscrip ... ventId=852
(I didn't copy the entire article, but feel free to read it all if you want)

Again, I have no idea if any of this is applicable to SP, it's just one possibility. Maybe he is a 'quitter' and the asshole that some suggest him to be. I personally like to think there's something else going on. It's my rationalization and I'm stickin' to it!!!

When was the Phil Graham concert in relation to his last real live performance? That was the worst of his worst performances I've ever witnessed. Could it have triggered some of these feelings? In all honesty, it probabaly should have. He sang the wrong lines on Faithfully of all songs!!! In some ways I hope he's the asshole you guys say he is. Then at least he would be not performing for his own reasons, not because something beyond his control is keeping him from it.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:09 am

Phil Graham was 91... didn't seem to scare him into not touring FTLOSM in 94, which admittedly had its highs and lows.

Whatever the justification, the guy quit. There's no reason he can't work up the courage to perform like most of the other singers from his era do.
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Postby parfait » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:00 am

Ehwmatt wrote:Phil Graham was 91... didn't seem to scare him into not touring FTLOSM in 94, which admittedly had its highs and lows.

Whatever the justification, the guy quit. There's no reason he can't work up the courage to perform like most of the other singers from his era do.



Sure there is:

He can't sing anymore :?
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Postby Its Me » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:00 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
Its Me wrote:
Abitaman wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:As for Steve, I've seen him live from two feet away at JTTC two years in a row and he's been fantastic every time.
.


Best thing said in years!!!!!!!!!


I agree, also have seen him the past two years at JTTC, he sounds great! 8)


He's a great guitar player, too!


Also very true!!!!!! 8)
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Postby Onestepper » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:13 am

Great argument/fight etc in this thread. I mean, I read it in different threads a thousand times. But this one was enjoyable. Thanks.
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Postby Don » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:44 am

One guy is a quitter, the other guys are theoretically thieves. They all have shown the ability to be assholes. Even if one anus is bigger than the others, you get the same shit flowing out regardless.

As long as as I still have the ability to maintain a working copy of of any album Journey did prior to 1984, I'm happy.
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Postby Michigan Girl » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:52 am

Gunbot wrote:One guy is a quitter, the other guys are theoretically thieves. They all have shown the ability to be assholes. Even if one anus is bigger than the others, you get the same shit flowing out regardless.

As long as as I still have the ability to maintain a working copy of of any album Journey did prior to 1984, I'm happy.


'84? I have a better range of happiness than you do!! :wink:
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Postby steveo777 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:05 am

Gunbot wrote:One guy is a quitter, the other guys are theoretically thieves. They all have shown the ability to be assholes. Even if one anus is bigger than the others, you get the same shit flowing out regardless.

As long as as I still have the ability to maintain a working copy of of any album Journey did prior to 1984, I'm happy.


What does this mean........guilt by potential? Everybody has stolen a hotel towel or bathrobe in their lives. I don't see them running around stealing other artist's work.
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Postby Don » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:15 am

steveo777 wrote:
Gunbot wrote:One guy is a quitter, the other guys are theoretically thieves. They all have shown the ability to be assholes. Even if one anus is bigger than the others, you get the same shit flowing out regardless.

As long as as I still have the ability to maintain a working copy of of any album Journey did prior to 1984, I'm happy.


What does this mean........guilt by potential? Everybody has stolen a hotel towel or bathrobe in their lives. I don't see them running around stealing other artist's work.


No. When you perform a substantial number of shows billed as live and you don't provide live vocals, you are defrauding your fans. I don't care if the instruments were live, Journey is known for the soaring vocals and not providing a live performance of that is stealing. They are not Britney Spears, out there doing dance routines and theater. The only thing you are paying for when you see them in a performance is alive show. The BGV are already canned. When you do that with the lead vocals, what is the audience actually paying for at that point? It's all water under the bridge now for some but if Perry is still the Devil for teasing the fans then the band is equally culpable for cheating them.
Last edited by Don on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:23 am

Gunbot wrote:
steveo777 wrote:
Gunbot wrote:One guy is a quitter, the other guys are theoretically thieves. They all have shown the ability to be assholes. Even if one anus is bigger than the others, you get the same shit flowing out regardless.

As long as as I still have the ability to maintain a working copy of of any album Journey did prior to 1984, I'm happy.


What does this mean........guilt by potential? Everybody has stolen a hotel towel or bathrobe in their lives. I don't see them running around stealing other artist's work.


No. When you perform a substantial number of shows billed as live and you don't provide live vocals, you are defrauding your fans. I don't care if the instruments were live, Journey is known for the soaring vocals and not providing a live performance of that is stealing. They are not Britney Spears, out there doing dance routines and theater. The only thing you are paying for when you see them in a performance is alive show. The BGV are already canned. When you do that with the lead vocals, what is the audience actually paying for at that point? It's all water under the bridge now for some but if Perry is still the Devil for teasing the fans then the band is equally culpable for cheating them.


I'll buy that.
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