Marie Osmonds son takes own life

[Behshad]

How old are you Behshad?

2 years old today! He is growing up to be such a big boy! LOL!
:

Rather 2 than older than dirt

[Arianddu]

Matt, Dan, why not just acknowledge that you watched Heathers one time too many and be done with it?

[Ehwmatt]

Because it's the cool thing to do

Until we stop feeling sorry for every dickwad who wants to kill himself, this problem will just get more widespread. We sanction this cop-out bullshit as a society.

Bingo! These fuckers need to be laughed at and made fun of, not felt sorry for. Being a selfish, self-centered pussy should never be condoned. Regardless of how sad I got I could never do this to my family.

Jesus mate. I've often questioned your outlook on life, but that statement is so seriously fucked, I wonder if you will ever gain clarity of thought. Holy shit man...

You know the thing about all of you people? Even though Dan and I were making a point somewhat satirically, all of you people who deride us for being judgmental are just as judgmental of us. You can't escape judging people, every body judges people. It's one of those great ironies of life because when people say not to judge, they're judging themselves.

You guys think it's "seriously fucked" for us to not shed a river of tears every time some asshole thinks it's ok to act out in a ridiculous way because of "depression," which they more often than not don't really have. I (we I presume if I can speak for Dan) think it's fucked that EVERY time some one comes around doing this stuff you people have to rush to make excuses for them. We're admittedly being extreme and satirical in the expression of our opinions because after all, this is MR and you people are too goddamn easy these days.

But, just because you allegedly "non-judgmental" people that think making an excuse for every single person who wants to kill himself or shoot up the office or family before offing himself is somehow the noble thing to do and preferable to our way of looking at the reality of these situations on a case-by-case, realistic basis, doesn't mean it's any less judgmental of you guys to deride our views and call us assholes and what not.

Lesson learned: Everybody judges. That so-called "judgmental" criticism is just a hackneyed way of trying to take the moral high ground with your position, which is certainly not objectively better.

[Ehwmatt]

Matt, Dan, why not just acknowledge that you watched Heathers one time too many and be done with it?

What's that? Is that Stephen King?

[Michigan Girl]

And it's an EXTREMELY complicated illness/disease. EXTREMELY. It is just not about feeling down at any given time or all the time. It is life effecting and can be woven into so many other aspects of day to day artivity and every little thing a person does.

And depression is just the tip of the iceburg as to what can lie underneath.

Of course it is. I know some people don't see that, or they lump suicidal behavior in with your run-of-the-mill publicity seeking drama queens out there, but it's absolutely a real problem in our society. Sometimes they are doing anything but looking for attention, and even their loved ones don't recognize the signs in time. Suicide is absolutely an extremely selfish act (unless done as an alternative to an imminent worse form of death, like being eaten by Nazi zombies or forced to listen to the last Bon Jovi album). Unfortunately people in that spot aren't in a rational form of mind, and sometimes people need HELP. A damn shame our society doesn't offer enough of it while there is still a chance. It's a COLD world we live in.

LOL, ...I liked a couple, LOVE We Weren't Born To Follow!!
Anxious see what they include in their setlist!!

[DrFU]

The part I don't understand is why folks who get epically drunk on a regular basis fail to grasp the principle that altered brain chemistry can make actions that would never be considered under normal circumstances seem like viable options.

In other words, you can't THINK your way out of being shitfaced; likewise, you can't think your way into being happy if the neurotransmitters in your brain are at too low of levels or are out of balance with each other.

Sincerest condolences to Marie Osmond and her family; the loss of a child it just the worst thing ever; the parents' lives go on, but they are never the same.

[StevePerryHair]

[b]The part I don't understand is why folks who get epically drunk on a regular basis fail to grasp the principle that altered brain chemistry can make actions that would never be considered under normal circumstances seem like viable options.
In other words, you can't THINK your way out of being shitfaced; likewise, you can't think your way into being happy if the neurotransmitters in your brain are at too low of levels or are out of balance with each other.

Sincerest condolences to Marie Osmond and her family; the loss of a child it just the worst thing ever; the parents' lives go on, but they are never the same.

what a great point Linda!! That makes total sense!!

[Saint John]

Lesson learned: Everybody judges. That so-called "judgmental" criticism is just an hackneyed way of trying to take the moral high ground with your position, which is certainly not objectively better.

I view it more as a cheap shot akin to pulling the race card.

The problem society faces is this ... how do you decipher which people are clinically depressed from those that have just been taught that it's ok to be selfish and end the pain caused by the sort of shit that life throws at all of us??? Because that's what I/we think we're seeing. It's almost become justified to not have a fucking spine. People making fun of you on Facebook? Insert gun in mouth and end it! Naked texts being passed around because you showed poor judgment? Grab some rope and a chair! Lost all of your money on E-Trade and the wife found out? Seal off the garage and start the car! Out of work Hollywood actor and can't afford pills? Swallow a bottle of Excedrin!

This is what I have been talking about and I think Matt was, too. And just from the amount of people that jumped our asses (and some justifiably so), I would wager that some of you, or the cases you cited, are exactly what I just talked about. To those cases in which clinical depression was involved ... my sincerest apologies.

[Ehwmatt]

Lesson learned: Everybody judges. That so-called "judgmental" criticism is just an hackneyed way of trying to take the moral high ground with your position, which is certainly not objectively better.

I view it more as a cheap shot akin to pulling the race card.

The problem society faces is this ... how do you decipher which people are clinically depressed from those that have just been taught that it's ok to be selfish and end the pain caused by the sort of shit that life throws at all of us??? Because that's what I/we think we're seeing. It's almost become justified to not have a fucking spine. People making fun of you on Facebook? Insert gun in mouth and end it! Naked texts being passed around because you showed poor judgment? Grab some rope and a chair! Lost all of your money on E-Trade and the wife found out? Seal off the garage and start the car! Out of work Hollywood actor and can't afford pills? Swallow a bottle of Excedrin!

This is what I have been talking about and I think Matt was, too. And just from the amount of people that jumped our asses (and some justifiably so), I would wager that some of you, or the cases you cited, are exactly what I just talked about. To those cases in which clinical depression was involved ... my sincerest apologies.

Couldn't have said it better

[Voyager]

Even though Dan and I were making a point somewhat satirically, all of you people who deride us for being judgmental are just as judgmental of us.

LOL! I had this same argument with my wife yesterday. She was shaming one of our daughters for doing something wrong, and I asked her kindly to stop shaming her and instruct her on how to do it right instead. She lashed back at me and said I was shaming her for shaming our daughter. I replied that just because I asked her to stop shaming someone doesn't equate to me shaming her.

It's like the age-old argument between religious bigots and non-religious people: "You're being a bigot towards me by telling me I am a bigot!"

[Ehwmatt]

Even though Dan and I were making a point somewhat satirically, all of you people who deride us for being judgmental are just as judgmental of us.

LOL! I had this same argument with my wife yesterday. She was shaming one of our daughters for doing something wrong, and I asked her kindly to stop shaming her and instruct her on how to do it right instead. She lashed back at me and said I was shaming her for shaming our daughter. I replied that just because I asked her to stop shaming someone doesn't equate to me shaming her.

It's like the age-old argument between religious bigots and non-religious people: "You're being a bigot towards me by telling me I am a bigot!"

I don't really see what a common every day slight marital quarrel over child disciplinary differences of opinion has to do with any of this? Sorry, but bad analogy.

What exactly is a religious bigot vs a bigot? Is that supposed to mean all bigots are so because they are religious? All religious people are bigots? Or what? The fact that you use a phrase like that tells me you ARE judgmental and prejudiced. I'm not religious, but if I were, I'd certainly think you were being judgmental using a phrase like that. You "accepting" people are truly hilarious sometimes with your own transparency.

[Rip Rokken]

LOL, ...I liked a couple, LOVE We Weren't Born To Follow!!

I think that's the only song on the album I like. It is VERY catchy, but it's just a rework of "Born to Be My Baby" and probably not their only one. They are just rehashing at this point.

[Ehwmatt]

LOL, ...I liked a couple, LOVE We Weren't Born To Follow!!

I think that's the only song on the album I like. It is VERY catchy, but it's just a rework of "Born to Be My Baby" and probably not their only one. They are just rehashing at this point.

Is that the tune that's on that annoying commercial all the time? ugh.

[JasonD]

This video just seems appropriate at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps



Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

[Ehwmatt]

This video just seems appropriate at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps



Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

lol, every suicide is the result of clinical depression? What about Japanese samurai suicide? Were they clinically depressed? Hell, modern day Asian cultures embrace "honor suicide" as well... are all of those guys clinically depressed or a PRODUCT OF CULTURE? (DING DING DING DING! Transfer that over to the culturally sanctioned things we allow here and you see how it's not always a case of mental illness). How about corporate scumbags who fleece their companies and shareholders and get caught and then summarily blow their brains out to avoid criminal penalties... clinically depressed? A sociopathic murderer sentenced 25 to life who hangs himself... clinically depressed? A suicide bomber... clinically depressed? A previously happy teen cheerleader who gets made fun of for a week or two after having her "sext" message passed around school by a disgruntled ex and takes pills to kill herself... clinically depressed? To me, the only one that's even a debatable call is the teen cheerleader

[Saint John]

Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

Dumb and queer ... if anyone should be depressed, it's you.

[Saint John]

Motherfucker ... now we have Cecil B. DeMille in this thread.

[JasonD]

This video just seems appropriate at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps



Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

lol, every suicide is the result of clinical depression? What about Japanese samurai suicide? Were they clinically depressed? Hell, modern day Asian cultures embrace "honor suicide" as well... are all of those guys clinically depressed or a PRODUCT OF CULTURE? (DING DING DING DING! Transfer that over to the culturally sanctioned things we allow here and you see how it's not always a case of mental illness). How about corporate scumbags who fleece their companies and shareholders and get caught and then summarily blow their brains out to avoid criminal penalties... clinically depressed? A sociopathic murderer sentenced 25 to life who hangs himself... clinically depressed? A suicide bomber... clinically depressed? A previously happy teen cheerleader who gets made fun of for a week or two after having her "sext" message passed around school by a disgruntled ex and takes pills to kill herself... clinically depressed? To me, the only one that's even a debatable call is the teen cheerleader

Okay, let's stay within our own culture, shall we? I don't pretend to know what goes on in the minds of people from other countries or other PLANETS (just in case you were planning on "going there" next). To me it's the same argument as when the courts ponder, "Hmmm.... Do we think Jefferey Dahmer was insane?" I'm like--- WELL, DUH!!!! Any mass murderer who boils people's body parts & stores them in his fridge is insane IMO. ..... or buries them in his crawl space ala John Wayne Gacy. To me, that goes without saying. In AMERICAN culture if you kill yourself you must be clinically depressed. How can you not be?

[Ehwmatt]

This video just seems appropriate at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps



Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

lol, every suicide is the result of clinical depression? What about Japanese samurai suicide? Were they clinically depressed? Hell, modern day Asian cultures embrace "honor suicide" as well... are all of those guys clinically depressed or a PRODUCT OF CULTURE? (DING DING DING DING! Transfer that over to the culturally sanctioned things we allow here and you see how it's not always a case of mental illness). How about corporate scumbags who fleece their companies and shareholders and get caught and then summarily blow their brains out to avoid criminal penalties... clinically depressed? A sociopathic murderer sentenced 25 to life who hangs himself... clinically depressed? A suicide bomber... clinically depressed? A previously happy teen cheerleader who gets made fun of for a week or two after having her "sext" message passed around school by a disgruntled ex and takes pills to kill herself... clinically depressed? To me, the only one that's even a debatable call is the teen cheerleader

Okay, let's stay within our own culture, shall we? I don't pretend to know what goes on in the minds of people from other countries or other PLANETS (just in case you were planning on "going there" next). To me it's the same argument as when the courts ponder, "Hmmm.... Do we think Jefferey Dahmer was insane?" I'm like--- WELL, DUH!!!! Any mass murderer who boils people's body parts & stores them in his fridge is insane IMO. ..... or buries them in his crawl space ala John Wayne Gacy. To me, that goes without saying. In AMERICAN culture if you kill yourself you must be clinically depressed. How can you not be?

Most of those were American culturally based. All you just did was beg the question. I don't believe for a second narcissistic scumbags like Cliff Baxter at Enron were in ANY WAY clinically depressed before they killed themselves. Upset/distraught at the direction his life was about to take and not willing to own up to the consequences? Sure, but NOT clinically depressed. Same with a sociopathic criminal who doesn't want to do the hard time.

As I said, the cheerleader is the only close call of my examples that I can see.

You guys can't have it both ways... on one hand it's all chemical and biological and my culture influence argument holds no weight, but now you mean to tell me that culture DOES play a role in it? No way sir.

[JasonD]

Matt/Dan: You guys believe that being clinically depressed & what you refer to as "...someone who's been taught to that it's ok to be selfish & end the pain, etc" are two separate entities. They are one in the same. If someone is distraught to the point of killing themself, then they ARE clinical depressed. There is no such thing as being of sound mind & body & killing yourself as the ultimate fake out.

Dumb and queer ... if anyone should be depressed, it's you.

I love you. Will you marry me?

[Saint John]

Okay, let's stay within our own culture, shall we?

So you're saying that it can be a learned action, huh?

In AMERICAN culture if you kill yourself you must be clinically depressed. How can you not be?

Because, like you unintentionally mentioned above, it can become a learned response/justification ... and it has.

[JasonD]

Okay, let's stay within our own culture, shall we?

So you're saying that it can be a learned action, huh?

In AMERICAN culture if you kill yourself you must be clinically depressed. How can you not be?

Because, like you unintentionally mentioned above, it can become a learned response/justification ... and it has.

I don't believe so. I believe we are talking about a couple of different things here: Depression & insanity. I don't think a suicide bomber or Japanese Kamikaze learns to kill himself along with others. I think they are insane. In contrast, the cheerleader who's ex-boyfriend destroys her reputation (or whatever the example was) is not insane by definition. She is depressed.

[Ehwmatt]

Okay, let's stay within our own culture, shall we?

So you're saying that it can be a learned action, huh?

In AMERICAN culture if you kill yourself you must be clinically depressed. How can you not be?

Because, like you unintentionally mentioned above, it can become a learned response/justification ... and it has.

I don't believe so. I believe we are talking about a couple of different things here: Depression & insanity. I don't think a suicide bomber or Japanese Kamikaze learns to kill himself along with others. I think they are insane. In contrast, the cheerleader who's ex-boyfriend destroys her reputation (or whatever the example was) is not insane by definition. She is depressed.

Nice try, but you're ignoring the lion's share of the pertinent examples. The purpose of the examples was to show all extremes. Again, how about a business man in Japan who kills himself because it is considered honorable to do so when you shame yourself and your family by failing? How about the callous murderer who kills himself? How about the corporate criminal who kills himself when facing charges? Suicide bombers are probably insane (but even there, culturally sanctioned, which arguably leads them to actually follow through in many cases), but samurai harakiri was probably not done by insane people back in the day. It was considered the honorable thing to do by the culture.

Your original argument was that someone who follows through on a suicide is categorically "so distraught" that they have to do it. Now, you're trying to change your basic premise and ignore examples that clearly demonstrate the futility of that argument, as well as expanding your own original argument to include things you ruled out before. Again, you can't have it both ways. Rational, mentally healthy people commit suicide sometimes because they aren't strong enough to deal with the consequences of their actions or the trials of life and their doing so is just facilitated by the availability of medical/cultural "rationalizations" for the act that often don't truly apply.

[JasonD]

Nice try, but you're ignoring the lion's share of the pertinent examples. The purpose of the examples was to show all extremes. Again, how about a business man in Japan who kills himself because it is considered honorable to do so when you shame yourself and your family by failing? How about the callous murderer who kills himself? How about the corporate criminal who kills himself when facing charges? Suicide bombers are probably insane (but even there, culturally sanctioned, which arguably leads them to actually follow through in many cases), but samurai harakiri was probably not done by insane people back in the day. It was considered the honorable thing to do by the culture.

Your original argument was that someone who follows through on a suicide is categorically "so distraught" that they have to do it. Now, you're trying to change your basic premise and ignore examples that clearly demonstrate the futility of that argument, as well as expanding your own original argument to include things you ruled out before. Again, you can't have it both ways. Rational, mentally healthy people commit suicide sometimes because they aren't strong enough to deal with the consequences of their actions or the trials of life and their doing so is just facilitated by the availability of medical "rationalizations" for the act.

Oh yes I can. I've been doing it for years.

[Michigan Girl]

I don't believe that everyone who kills him/herself is "clinically depressed"!!
I do agree w/Siskel and Ebert on this point. I think that some people
find themselves in bad situations that they feel they cannot face or are unwilling
to face and the only answer, in their minds, is to off themselves. Sure, they were
drepressed over their situation, but CD?!?! Everyone is depressed at some point and
some people are capable of getting through it, some aren't, e.g. elderly uncle of a friend recently
found out he had cancer!! He was 77 years old and a very happy man, fun, full of life!!! The day after
he found out he went into his bathroom and shot himself. Was he suddenly clinically
depressed or did he just not want to be a burden to his family!?!

[Ehwmatt]

Nice try, but you're ignoring the lion's share of the pertinent examples. The purpose of the examples was to show all extremes. Again, how about a business man in Japan who kills himself because it is considered honorable to do so when you shame yourself and your family by failing? How about the callous murderer who kills himself? How about the corporate criminal who kills himself when facing charges? Suicide bombers are probably insane (but even there, culturally sanctioned, which arguably leads them to actually follow through in many cases), but samurai harakiri was probably not done by insane people back in the day. It was considered the honorable thing to do by the culture.

Your original argument was that someone who follows through on a suicide is categorically "so distraught" that they have to do it. Now, you're trying to change your basic premise and ignore examples that clearly demonstrate the futility of that argument, as well as expanding your own original argument to include things you ruled out before. Again, you can't have it both ways. Rational, mentally healthy people commit suicide sometimes because they aren't strong enough to deal with the consequences of their actions or the trials of life and their doing so is just facilitated by the availability of medical "rationalizations" for the act.

Oh yes I can. I've been doing it for years.

Touché

[Voyager]

Even though Dan and I were making a point somewhat satirically, all of you people who deride us for being judgmental are just as judgmental of us.

LOL! I had this same argument with my wife yesterday. She was shaming one of our daughters for doing something wrong, and I asked her kindly to stop shaming her and instruct her on how to do it right instead. She lashed back at me and said I was shaming her for shaming our daughter. I replied that just because I asked her to stop shaming someone doesn't equate to me shaming her.

It's like the age-old argument between religious bigots and non-religious people: "You're being a bigot towards me by telling me I am a bigot!"

I don't really see what a common every day slight marital quarrel over child disciplinary differences of opinion has to do with any of this? Sorry, but bad analogy.

What exactly is a religious bigot vs a bigot? Is that supposed to mean all bigots are so because they are religious? All religious people are bigots? Or what? The fact that you use a phrase like that tells me you ARE judgmental and prejudiced. I'm not religious, but if I were, I'd certainly think you were being judgmental using a phrase like that. You "accepting" people are truly hilarious sometimes with your own transparency.

Let me try to clarify. However, I realize I am trying to discuss something in the middle of a battlefield, so I expect to take a little friendly fire.

Here's an analogy of what I am saying:

Gay Daughter To Mother: "Mother, I have decided after a lot of thoughtful consideration to tell you that I am gay."

Mother To Gay Daughter: "I knew something was wrong with you. We need to go see the pastor and get that homosexual demon driven out of you. These kind only come out by prayer and fasting. I will not show my face in church with a gay daughter!"

Gay Daughter To Mother: "Mother, you are acting like a bigot."

Mother To Gay Daughter: "A bigot? You are the one who is bigoted for calling me a bigot!"

Let's take it to another level:

Depressed Daughter To Mother: "Mother, I have decided after a lot of thoughtful consideration to tell you that I suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts."

Mother To Depressed Daughter: "I knew something was wrong with you. We need to go see the pastor and get that depression demon driven out of you. These kind only come out by prayer and fasting. I will not show my face in church with a suicidal daughter!"

Depressed Daughter To Mother: "Mother, you are acting like a bigot."

Mother To Depressed Daughter: "A bigot? You are the one who is bigoted for calling me a bigot!"

[yulog]

Because it's the cool thing to do

Until we stop feeling sorry for every dickwad who wants to kill himself, this problem will just get more widespread. We sanction this cop-out bullshit as a society.

Bingo! These fuckers need to be laughed at and made fun of, not felt sorry for. Being a selfish, self-centered pussy should never be condoned. Regardless of how sad I got I could never do this to my family.

Jesus mate. I've often questioned your outlook on life, but that statement is so seriously fucked, I wonder if you will ever gain clarity of thought. Holy shit man...

My thought process is just fine, man. Which is in direct contrast to people that find jumping off of a building easier than facing their problems.

I could have so much fun with this post but i guess i bore easily these days.

[artist4perry]

How old are you Behshad?

2 years old today! He is growing up to be such a big boy! LOL!
:

Rather 2 than older than dirt

Yes little one, now go and play on the freeway..............


Dan and Matt have either of you dealt with this on a close personal level? I mean clinical depression? If not, then I hardly see how you would understand. My brother was happy go lucky, easy going and laughing all the time. He is not selfish, self centered, or attention seeking. It just hit him one day when the pressure at work got too much. It was years of things going bad for him. He is seeking help for it, so it is not like he is not trying. He realizes something is not right. He used to have your point of view, and he was one of the last people I would have ever thought could go that direction. It can hit anyone, at anytime.

[parfait]

How old are you Behshad?

2 years old today! He is growing up to be such a big boy! LOL!
:

Rather 2 than older than dirt

Yes little one, now go and play on the freeway..............


Dan and Matt have either of you dealt with this on a close personal level? I mean clinical depression? If not, then I hardly see how you would understand. My brother was happy go lucky, easy going and laughing all the time. He is not selfish, self centered, or attention seeking. It just hit him one day when the pressure at work got too much. It was years of things going bad for him. He is seeking help for it, so it is not like he is not trying. He realizes something is not right. He used to have your point of view, and he was one of the last people I would have ever thought could go that direction. It can hit anyone, at anytime.

You don't have to deal with a unipolar disorder to understand it. Only thing you got to have is a bit of common sense. To say that a person with a clinical depression is a coward or got poor resiliency or whatever, is so fucked up on every god damn level. It's like debating whether or not the Holocaust ever happened, or better yet, if 9/11 was some stupid conspiracy - it just shows you got the brain of a fucking otter (no offence, Beshad)