President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[conversationpc]

If you're gleefully relishing the thought of Repubs taking back Congress, I'd argue you are NOT an independent who hates both sides equally.

Well, I don't claim to hate both sides equally but I also certainly don't relish the Repubs taking back Congress, either.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If you're gleefully relishing the thought of Repubs taking back Congress, I'd argue you are NOT an independent who hates both sides equally.

Well, I don't claim to hate both sides equally but I also certainly don't relish the Repubs taking back Congress, either.

Ok. But Slucero does and that's who I was addressing. He clarified that I am reading waaaay too much into his smiley face and he's right. So this whole conversation is moot.

[slucero]

If you're gleefully relishing the thought of Repubs taking back Congress, I'd argue you are NOT an independent who hates both sides equally.

Well, I don't claim to hate both sides equally but I also certainly don't relish the Repubs taking back Congress, either.

Ok. But Slucero does and that's who I was addressing. He clarified that I am reading waaaay too much into his smiley face and he's right. So this whole conversation is moot.

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

I'd prefer a more Liberal Libertarian party in opposition to the Reps and Dems.. but as they say "you gotta dance with who you came to the dance with". I also believe this next set of elections (2010 -2012) is going to be won by the candidates that appeal best to the rising demographic of Americans that feel disenfranchised by both parties... I'll vote Democrat or Republican, Green Party or Martian if I feel they want what I want for the country, and their platform meets that criteria.

I am a conservative.. but in a Constitutional sense... I also believe in a woman's right to choose.. and think marriage (for all) should be either be legitimized by the courts for all forms of none at all.

[artist4perry]

During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."

They're going to take over the world too. I watched a video on Youtube that said they're breeding 8 kids per household on average. Christians are breeding less than 2.

Your avatar is hilarious.

I thought so too, that's why I stole it off some blog.

FF that av is priceless, I showed my husband and the both of us laughed our butts off. The origami and horses butt drawing were the funniest.

[Monker]

Exactly...ARGH! Why would the Port Authority 'donating' land and money to build a church? Are they not an extension of state government? THAT is wrong. And, I am glad it was stopped.

And, since the Port Authority says the church has every right to build on its own land with its own funds makes the comparison to the cultural center like comparing Fact Finder with somebody who actually knows how to come up with an original thought.

Argggggg...

Mosque Moves Forward, Yet Church in Limbo

by Mark Impomeni

08/09/2010

The battle raging over the Ground Zero mosque is bringing new attention to another, less publicized controversy involving a house of worship in Lower Manhattan.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which once sat right across the street from the World Trade Center, was crushed under the weight of the collapse of Tower Two on September 11, 2001. St. Nicholas was the only church to be lost in the attacks, and nine years later, while City of New York officials are busy removing every impediment to the building of the Cordoba mosque two blocks from the site, St. Nicholas’ future remains unclear.

The last bit of hopeful news for St. Nicholas came two years ago, in July 2008, when church officials and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey announced a deal which would have allowed the church to be rebuilt about two blocks from its original location.

The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center.

Trouble emerged after St. Nicholas announced its plans to build a traditional Greek Orthodox church building, 24,000 square feet in size, topped with a grand dome. Port Authority officials told the church to cut back the size of the building and the height of the proposed dome, limiting it to rising no higher than the World Trade Center memorial. The deal fell apart for goodin March 2009, when the Port Authority abruptly ended the talks after refusing to allow church officials to review plans for the garage and screening area underneath. Sixteen months later, the two sides have still not met to resume negotiations.

St. Nicholas Church’s difficulty in getting approvals to rebuild stands in stark contrast to the treatment that the developers of the proposed Cordoba mosque have received. New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg, state Atty. Gen. Andrew Cuomo, and a raft of city officials have all come out publicly in favor of building the mosque, and the city’s Landmarks and Preservation Commission recently voted unanimously to deny protection to the building currently occupying the site where the mosque is to be built.

The mosque is proposed to rise 13 stories, far above the height of the World Trade Center memorial, with no height restrictions imposed.

Inspired by former representative Vito Fossella (R-NY), Human Events and RedState.com are sponsoring an online petition calling on New York officials to take action to stop the mosque from being built.

The contrast has not been lost on at least one candidate for Congress. George Demos is a Republican running in New York’s 1st Congressional District. Demos has made the Cordoba mosque an issue in his campaign, even though his district is on Eastern Long Island, and is highlighting the plight of St. Nicholas Church.

In an exclusive interview with Human Events, Demos had harsh words for the Port Authority, which he accuses of blocking the church from being rebuilt. “The Port Authority is a creation of Congress and should be answerable to two states [New York and New Jersey], but in reality is answerable to no one,” Demos said. “The Port Authority is insular and simply doesn’t care about public opinion. They are simply not making this a priority. Chris Ward is the Port Authority director and he is not allowing this to go forward.”

For its part, the Port Authority says it had no choice but to break off negotiations with the church to avoid delaying the World Trade Center project any longer. The authority said that the church retains the right to rebuild on its own at its original location. “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority said last year. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Demos said it is the church that has been unjustly delayed. “One place of worship was destroyed in the attacks. That should be the first thing on that board’s agenda. That should be the first priority,” he said. “There were actually relics of St. Nicholas in that church that were lost in the attacks. Why is it that the same government officials who are so ferverently fighting for the mosque’s right to be built aren’t also fighting for the church to be rebuilt.”

Demos was critical of Mayor Bloomberg’s recent comments on the occasion of the Landmarks Commission vote. In a speech immediately following the vote, Bloomberg said, among other arguments, that allowing the mosque project to go forward would be a victory of sorts over the forces that attacked America on 9/11.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans,” Bloomberg said. “We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.”

Demos called those remarks “premature” and echoed New York Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio’s call for an investigation into the funding of the mosque. “We need to investigate sources of funding for the mosque. If in fact it is being funded by terrorist regimes, then it is the terrorists who are winning by building a mosque at Ground Zero,” Demos said. “Bloomberg’s comments only beg the question of why aren’t we investigating?”

Demos calls his district, currently represented by four-term Democrat Tim Bishop, a bellwether for Republicans in the fall elections. The district is a traditionally Republican seat, which President Obama narrowly won with 51% of the vote in 2008.
While Demos is focusing his campaign on the issues of jobs, government spending, and his opponent’s voting record—which he characterized as out of step with the district—he said that the plight of St. Nicholas Church is resonating with voters.

Recent polling in New York shows that a majority disagrees with the plan to build the mosque so close to Ground Zero.
Asked what prompted him to take up St. Nicholas’s cause, Demos said the apparent favorable treatment the mosque’s developers received served to illuminate the issue to him as simply a question of right versus wrong.

“This is not a partisan issue,” he said. “It’s an issue of fair-minded candidates for office stepping up and doing the right thing. The focus should be something we can all agree on—getting the church rebuilt.”

[The_Noble_Cause]

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

Agreed 100%

[hoagiepete]

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

Agreed 100%

You forget the 1000s of inbred bureaucrats (congressional and agency staffers) whose primary purpose in life is self preservation. They control things, with nary a clue as to what life is like outside of the beltway. They are the ones providing input to congress that ends up screwing us. They have no idea what impact their brainchilds (rules, regs and policies) have on ordinary folks and businesses.

Unfortunately Congress allows their staff to write legislation that they themselves have no idea what the ramifications are. Shame on them for that.

I agree, clean house in DC, but don't forget the bureaucrats!! Until they are gone, no matter who you elect, the result will be the same.

[slucero]

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

Agreed 100%

You forget the 1000s of inbred bureaucrats (congressional and agency staffers) whose primary purpose in life is self preservation. They control things, with nary a clue as to what life is like outside of the beltway. They are the ones providing input to congress that ends up screwing us. They have no idea what impact their brainchilds (rules, regs and policies) have on ordinary folks and businesses.

Unfortunately Congress allows their staff to write legislation that they themselves have no idea what the ramifications are. Shame on them for that.

I agree, clean house in DC, but don't forget the bureaucrats!! Until they are gone, no matter who you elect, the result will be the same.

Agreed!

[Monker]

Exactly...ARGH! Why would the Port Authority 'donating' land and money to build a church? Are they not an extension of state government? THAT is wrong. And, I am glad it was stopped.

And, since the Port Authority says the church has every right to build on its own land with its own funds makes the comparison to the cultural center like comparing Fact Finder with somebody who actually knows how to come up with an original thought.

So I guess you missed the part where Gov. Paterson has offered State Land and State Money to move the Mosque further away from GZ, right? What's the difference in that from the Port Autority?

Also, does everyone realize that the building where they want to build the Mosque was where the landing gear from one of the 9/11 planes landed?

Nothing. Neither should happen. No public money should go to fund a religious site of any kind. That is wrong.

If the Muslims have the $'s and own the land, they should be allowed to build their site. That's just the way it is, deal with it. In fact, I would find it VERY unAmerican for federal, state, or local government to tell a religious organization what they can or can not do with the land they own. That is opening up a huge can of worms. If that precedent is allowed, what is to stop some local government from not allowing a church to be built on church owned land?

it's a very politically charged debate being waged without any thought to what the consequences are. Those who are against this 'cultural center' are not thinking of the long term consequences, and if they are, they are against ALL religious freedom...because that is what it really comes down to.

Are we as a nation going to limit one particular religion's freedoms because of what some loonies did almost 9yrs ago? Because, if we are, this nation is no better then those who we are fighting against in Afghanistan and Iraq. This country either believes in religious freedom, or it doesn't. It seems to me that Republicans no longer believe in it.

[Rhiannon]

So the smiley face emoticon you used regarding Obama handing the Repubs the mid-terms was meant to indicate what? You're a supreme GOP hack. Just admit it.

Actually I just like smiling.. (see there I did it again)

I'm looking for the "shrieking" emoticon for ya.. will let ya know when I find it..

Will this work?

[Babyblue]

Muslim Group holds groundbreaking Ceremony for new Mosque in Manhatten..
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Never forget 9/11

[Monker]

Probably, since these are all zoning issues.

The bottom line is they have every right to build the "cultural center". Denying them that right is unAmerican. Fleeing religious persecution is one of the reasons that Europeans came to this continent in the first place. If you want to live in a country where religious freedom is controlled by the government move your communist ass to China.

Monker seems to be in need of some edumacashun...


http://www.times-herald.com/Local/Churc ... mit-957724

Church denied permit
By Sarah Fay Campbell

The Times-Herald

By a vote of 3-2, the Coweta County Commissioners rejected the plans of All Souls Church of God in Christ to build a church of five acres on Buddy West Road.

The church purchased the property a couple of years ago and is now ready to build.

Commissioners Randolph Collins, Tim Lassetter and Paul Poole voted against the church's plans. Commissioners Al Smith and Rodney Brooks voted in favor of the church.

Under Coweta's zoning ordinances, there is nowhere that a church is allowed as a "by right" use. Churches can be built in any zoning district but must be granted a conditional use permit.

Pastor Curtis Connally said that when he saw the property up for sale, "we checked to find out if a church could be built there, and we were told that it could be."

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Southlak ... 78994.html

SOUTHLAKE — Southlake's oldest subdivision is doing everything it can to keep out an unwanted neighbor — Bethel Methodist Church.

The church currently rents a small building next to a small herd of donkeys.

But Bethel Methodist has big plans for a permanent home on a prime piece of land about ten minutes from Town Square — but the neighborhood has mobilized to stop them.

Jarod and Mika Johnson fell in love with a neighboring wooded lot when they bought their home in Southlake. They say it protects their neighborhood from the highway.

This week, they went to the City Council to protect it. "We are supposed to be in Colorado, but we are here because we believe that this will destroy the value of our property," Jarod told Council members.

They're talking about the proposed church on neighboring Jellico Circle. Bethel Methodist Church members purchased the land a few years ago after selling their sanctuary in Irving.

The proposed new church, fellowship hall and storage building would cover 16,800 square feet of the nearly three-and-a-half acre lot.

Jarod Johnson told the Council what his new backyard view would be like: "I will have an 8-foot fence and a 52-foot building — not including steeple, according to what was presented today — behind my house. Clearly, that can't be good," he said.

Southlake's planning and zoning commission denied the church's proposal last year, but this week, Bethel Methodist went above the commission, appealing directly to the Council.

After all the talking, the Council unanimously denied the church's proposal. Bethel Methodist is now considering all of its options, and is continuing to talk to community leaders — pointing out that the land it now owns could prove nearly impossible to sell.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/199 ... t5072.html

Until about 40 years ago, churches in most U.S. cities had an inherent right to build anywhere without enduring a lengthy and often expensive public hearing process. But now, even though a congregation may be small and wanting to open in a blighted region, city officials no longer believe churches have intrinsic worth.

Increasingly, congregations wanting to relocate to a new area or to expand existing facilities are met with resistance from both neighbors and city officials anxious about increased traffic, a decreased tax base, and parking and noise problems.

Most church leaders want to be good neighbors, but some have encountered as much opposition as if they had proposed opening a nuclear waste dump.

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/proper ... 612-1.html

The East Baton Rouge Parish Planning and Zoning Commission on Monday rejected South Baton Rouge Presbyterian Church's request for a zoning permit to build a new church on the north side of Oliphant Road east of Bluebonnet Boulevard.

Several neighborhood residents, including Metro Councilwoman Alison Cascio and representatives of four local homeowners associations, spoke against the proposed conditional use permit.

The Planning and Zoning Commission staff also recommended denying the permit, saying the proposed project was not in line with the urban design district created with the Bluebonnet Boulevard extension.

Neighbors' main objections included safety and quality of life issues stemming from the added vehicle traffic; the impact of a church on property values; and that the church didn't really fit in with single-family residential neighborhoods.

Cascio said she had nothing against the church and that it and its members had been a joy to work with even though she was upfront about opposing their request.

Commission member Ervie Ellender said he lives just two doors down from a church and it is a great neighbor.

Ellender said it's a shame, but if neighbors don't want a church in their subdivision, that is their right. He offered the motion to deny the permit.

Global Mission Church to appeal denial in January

The Frederick County Board of Zoning Appeals will hear an appeal by Silver Spring-based Global Mission Church, which was denied the right to build a sanctuary on its property on the border with Montgomery County.

The hearing will take place at 1 p.m. Jan. 20 in Winchester Hall, 12 E. Church St., Frederick. If the board can't hear the entire case in one day, it has set aside Jan. 28 and March 1 for additional testimony.

I'll bet I could Google hundreds of these...

[Monker]

Monker Muslim apologist wrote:

Probably, since these are all zoning issues.

The bottom line is they have every right to build the "cultural center". Denying them that right is unAmerican. Fleeing religious persecution is one of the reasons that Europeans came to this continent in the first place. If you want to live in a country where religious freedom is controlled by the government move your communist ass to China.

The point Richard Cranium, is that yes, * Zoning laws can and do tell Churches where they can and cannot build all of the time. There are 23 mosques in New York, the Constitution does not guarantee you can put your church anywhere you want, it just says you cannot be denied the practice of worship./* New York City could easily Zone this Mosque out of that spot if they had the balls to do so.

*Hat Tip and a Paraphrase from Rush Limbaugh, just in case someone says I didn't have an original thought. Rush just said it better than I.

Your point is invalid because zoning laws affect EVERYBODY. They do not discriminate solely on a religious basis. In those cases, it would not matter what religion was practiced in that place of worship - their permit would be denied.

And, I doubt it would be EASY to "zone out" the cultural center...because it would not just affect this one case, but ALL places of worship in that area.

My point is that they have every right to build the "cultural center". You arguing against it is unAmerican If you want to deny them this right, you will need to amend the Constitution and remove religious freedom. Good luck.

Funny how 'conservatives' want to start to 'liberally' change the laws and Constitution when rights guaranteed to a minority are not what they want. What, burning a flag is allowed, amend the Constitution. What, babies of illegals become citizens, amend the Constitution. What abortion is legal, amend the Constitution. What homosexuals can marry, amend the Constitution. What, Muslims can build a cultural center near ground zero....come on...when is the right-wing, 'conservative' nut-job going to propose the amendment? It's moronic to call 'Conservatives' conservative...they don't seem to know the definition of the word, until it suits them politically to start spouting it.

[slucero]

Monker.. no need to lump all us conservatives into one big bucket.. all people come in all flavors my friend...

[Monker]

Monker.. no need to lump all us conservatives into one big bucket.. all people come in all flavors my friend...

Why not? It seems conservatives are very good at doing just that.

[SF-Dano]

Can somebody please tell me exactly where in the constitution it states that there is a "rite" to build a church, mosque, temple, etc., anywhere a person or group wants to. Please provide the exact text.

I may have missed it, but I don't recall that being in there. There is a rite to freedom of religion. But that doesn't saying anything about building mosques, churches, etc.

[slucero]

Monker.. no need to lump all us conservatives into one big bucket.. all people come in all flavors my friend...

Why not? It seems conservatives are very good at doing just that.

OK - here's why...

If you're gleefully relishing the thought of Repubs taking back Congress, I'd argue you are NOT an independent who hates both sides equally.

Well, I don't claim to hate both sides equally but I also certainly don't relish the Repubs taking back Congress, either.

Ok. But Slucero does and that's who I was addressing. He clarified that I am reading waaaay too much into his smiley face and he's right. So this whole conversation is moot.

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

I'd prefer a more Liberal Libertarian party in opposition to the Reps and Dems.. but as they say "you gotta dance with who you came to the dance with". I also believe this next set of elections (2010 -2012) is going to be won by the candidates that appeal best to the rising demographic of Americans that feel disenfranchised by both parties... I'll vote Democrat or Republican, Green Party or Martian if I feel they want what I want for the country, and their platform meets that criteria.

I am a conservative.. but in a Constitutional sense... I also believe in a woman's right to choose.. and think marriage (for all) should be either be legitimized by the courts for all forms of none at all.

Big of you to agree with me TNC...

For the record... I'd rather we have neither Democrats or Republicans in Congress.. as I believe both have been corrupted by the business lobby. President Obama has done nothing to tear down K-Street, and thats the biggest problem in Washington right now IMHO. The government no longer serves the People first, it serves Corporations, then the Parties, and lastly the People... and the Preamble does not say "We the Corporations, Parties, and People"..

Agreed 100%

See - I'm a conservative.. yet I don't fall into the neat little category you seem to want to put all conservatives in... (the same as all liberals don't fall into the same category)

TNC was good enough to realize this.. and acknowledge it.. and he and I have had some serious disagreements here. But on the point above we have consensus...

Generalizations serve no purpose but to show how unwilling one is to consider the other perspective/opinion.... and that is the LAST thing the Founding Fathers and Framers wanted.. they designed and expected DEBATE.. not FACTION... in the form of government they designed for us... giving in to partisanship is the EASY thing to do... having the balls to debate an issue is, IMHO, what the Founding Fathers and Framers intended, because they knew that only through debate comes consensus and action... partisanship and faction only leads to polarization and inaction.

[donnaplease]

I am beginning to believe that the Obama's are doing whatever they want to thumb their noses at the American public. The vacations, the willingness to ignore the will of the people with regard to health care, immigration, and now the building in NYC... I have so many feelings about this, but it's hard to articulate them because it would come across as 'racist' or in the very least politically incorrect. Remembering some of the things said publicly by J. Wright and some of BO's other alliances combined with current behaviors definitely makes me wonder about his true intentions. I am also disgusted with his cross-country campaigning tour during a time in which our country NEEDS a strong leader in the WH, so that we KNOW someone is at the wheel. He doesn't seem to care very much about the actual job he has been given by the American public.

[slucero]

THis is from Politico.. which in fairness is considered a conservative media outlet...

The gist is that the Dems now believe that the HealthCare Bill will not reduce costs and are strategizing a way to save it from being repealed... The last line in the bottom slide:

"Don't... say the law will reduce costs and deficit"

The President has to be furious.. they're tossing him under the bus...

What concerns me is that if they are moving away from what most considered the main reason for the passage of the bill, and the main argument against it... reducing the cost of healthcare... how can they now defend the law and be believed? The benefit of passing it was reducing costs and now its not??



I've pasted the article in its entirety, including the 2 slides shown.

New Dem message: 'Improve' health care, don't talk cost
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... ml?showall




Key White House allies are dramatically shifting their attempts to defend health care legislation, abandoning claims that it will reduce costs and deficit and instead stressing a promise to "improve it."

The messaging shift was circulated this afternoon on a conference call and PowerPoint presentation organized by Families USA — one of the central groups in the push for the initial legislation. The call was led by a staffer for the Herndon Alliance, which includes leading labor groups and other health care allies. It was based on polling from three top Democratic pollsters: John Anzalone, Celinda Lake and Stan Greenberg.

The confidential presentation, available in full here and provided to POLITICO by a source on the call, suggests that Democrats are acknowledging the failure of their predictions that the health care legislation would grow more popular after its passage, as its benefits became clear and rhetoric cooled. Instead, the presentation is designed to win over a skeptical public, and to defend the legislation — and in particular the individual mandate — from a push for repeal. [/b]

The presentation concedes that groups typically supportive of Democratic causes — people under 40, non-college-educated women and Hispanic voters — have not been won over by the plan. Indeed, it stresses repeatedly that many are unaware that the legislation has passed, an astonishing shortcoming in the White House's all-out communications effort.

"Straightforward ‘policy’ defenses fail to [move] voters’ opinions about the law," says one slide. "Women in particular are concerned that health care law will mean less provider availbality — scarcity [is] an issue."

The presentation also concedes that the fiscal and economic arguments that were the White House's first and most aggressive sales pitch have essentially failed.

"Many don’t believe health care reform will help the economy," says one slide.

The presentation's final page of "Don'ts" counsels against claiming "the law will reduce costs and deficit."

The presentation advises, instead, sales pitches that play on personal narratives and promises to change the legislation.

"People can be moved from initial skepticism and support for repeal of the law to favorable feelings and resisting repeal," it says. "Use personal stories — coupled with clear, simple descriptions of how the law benefits people at the individual level — to convey critical benefits of reform."

The presentation also counsels against the kind of grand claims of change that accompanied the legislation's passage.

"Keep claims small and credible; don’t overpromise or ‘spin’ what the law delivers," it says, suggesting supporters say, "The law is not perfect, but it does good things and helps many people. Now we’ll work [to] improve it.”

The Herndon Alliance, which presented the research, is a low-profile group that coordinated liberal messaging in favor of the public option in health care. Its "partners" include health care legislation's heavyweight supporters: AARP, AFL-CIO, SEIU, Health Care for America Now, MoveOn and the National Council of La Raza, among many others.

The presentation cites three private research projects by top Democratic pollsters: eight focus groups by Lake; Anzalone's 1,000-person national survey; and an online survey of 2,000 people by Greenberg's firm.

"If we are to preserve the gains made by the law and build on this foundation, the American public must understand what the law means for them," says Herndon's website. "We must overcome fear and mistrust, and we must once again use our collective voice to connect with the public on the values we share as Americans."

[conversationpc]

Ok libs, only 74 days until you recieve a massive beat down like you've never gotten before. This is gonna be epic and make '94 look like a walk in the park.

I wouldn't be so confident if I were you. Lots can happen between now and November.

[The_Noble_Cause]

THis is from Politico.. which in fairness is considered a conservative media outlet...

So they say...I think they're pretty middle of the road and fair. Kinda like Mediaite.

[slucero]

THis is from Politico.. which in fairness is considered a conservative media outlet...

So they say...I think they're pretty middle of the road and fair. Kinda like Mediaite.

Ya - I hear ya... I was more appalled at what they were reporting tho..

[Rockindeano]

For the first time in his presidency, Barack Obama’s average weekly “disapproval” rating has hit 50 percent, according to the Gallup Poll.


Each week, Gallup interviews about 3,500 American adults, asking them whether they approve or disapprove of the job President Obama is doing. On a daily basis, the polling firm publishes a three-day rolling average of the results; and, on a weekly basis, it publishes the weekly average.


During the week of Aug. 16-22, President Obama’s average approval was 43 percent and his average disapproval was 50 percent. This marked both Obama’s lowest average weekly approval rating in the Gallup poll and his highest average weekly disapproval rating.

You're right about all of this FF. Obama sucks and so does his numbers. However, there isn't anyone on your team that can poll higher let alone beat him. I'm telling you ll this now, Put Hillary on the top of the ticket, Biden to State and Obama retires.

[slucero]

For the first time in his presidency, Barack Obama’s average weekly “disapproval” rating has hit 50 percent, according to the Gallup Poll.


Each week, Gallup interviews about 3,500 American adults, asking them whether they approve or disapprove of the job President Obama is doing. On a daily basis, the polling firm publishes a three-day rolling average of the results; and, on a weekly basis, it publishes the weekly average.


During the week of Aug. 16-22, President Obama’s average approval was 43 percent and his average disapproval was 50 percent. This marked both Obama’s lowest average weekly approval rating in the Gallup poll and his highest average weekly disapproval rating.

You're right about all of this FF. Obama sucks and so does his numbers. However, there isn't anyone on your team that can poll higher let alone beat him. I'm telling you ll this now, Put Hillary on the top of the ticket, Biden to State and Obama retires.

Never happen Deano... if the economy continues south into 2012, and all indications are that it will... even Hillary isn't stupid enough to step in front of the trainwreck that will hit the Dems... she wants to be the candidate that wins not the one that ran against negative public sentiment about the incumbent party.. and loses

Todays headline on CNBC was : "Economy Caught in Depression, Not Recession: Rosenberg"...

It won't matter which liberal or conservative economist says it... when these headlines move from financial news to mainstream and the public sentiment starts to believe "depression" not "recession"... the incumbents will pay the price..

[Rockindeano]

For the first time in his presidency, Barack Obama’s average weekly “disapproval” rating has hit 50 percent, according to the Gallup Poll.


Each week, Gallup interviews about 3,500 American adults, asking them whether they approve or disapprove of the job President Obama is doing. On a daily basis, the polling firm publishes a three-day rolling average of the results; and, on a weekly basis, it publishes the weekly average.


During the week of Aug. 16-22, President Obama’s average approval was 43 percent and his average disapproval was 50 percent. This marked both Obama’s lowest average weekly approval rating in the Gallup poll and his highest average weekly disapproval rating.

You're right about all of this FF. Obama sucks and so does his numbers. However, there isn't anyone on your team that can poll higher let alone beat him. I'm telling you ll this now, Put Hillary on the top of the ticket, Biden to State and Obama retires.

Never happen Deano... if the economy continues south into 2012, and all indications are that it will... even Hillary isn't stupid enough to step in front of the trainwreck that will hit the Dems... she wants to be the candidate that wins not the one that ran against negative public sentiment about the incumbent party.. and loses

Todays headline on CNBC was : "Economy Caught in Depression, Not Recession: Rosenberg"...

It won't matter which liberal or conservative economist says it... when these headlines move from financial news to mainstream and the public sentiment starts to believe "depression" not "recession"... the incumbents will pay the price..

Hey it just isn't my idea. Various reputable publications have articles stating the same possible scenario.

Also, you think if the GOP managed to get both houses the economy will still suck? Or are you saying that if they gain control, all our problems will be solved and the economy will roar to life? You can't have it both ways. They are going to try to repeal everything, and just cause a fucking standstill. God it will be so good for the country to have a Rep Speaker with a fake tan not interested at all in helping the nation.

[slucero]

For the first time in his presidency, Barack Obama’s average weekly “disapproval” rating has hit 50 percent, according to the Gallup Poll.


Each week, Gallup interviews about 3,500 American adults, asking them whether they approve or disapprove of the job President Obama is doing. On a daily basis, the polling firm publishes a three-day rolling average of the results; and, on a weekly basis, it publishes the weekly average.


During the week of Aug. 16-22, President Obama’s average approval was 43 percent and his average disapproval was 50 percent. This marked both Obama’s lowest average weekly approval rating in the Gallup poll and his highest average weekly disapproval rating.

You're right about all of this FF. Obama sucks and so does his numbers. However, there isn't anyone on your team that can poll higher let alone beat him. I'm telling you ll this now, Put Hillary on the top of the ticket, Biden to State and Obama retires.

Never happen Deano... if the economy continues south into 2012, and all indications are that it will... even Hillary isn't stupid enough to step in front of the trainwreck that will hit the Dems... she wants to be the candidate that wins not the one that ran against negative public sentiment about the incumbent party.. and loses

Todays headline on CNBC was : "Economy Caught in Depression, Not Recession: Rosenberg"...

It won't matter which liberal or conservative economist says it... when these headlines move from financial news to mainstream and the public sentiment starts to believe "depression" not "recession"... the incumbents will pay the price..

Hey it just isn't my idea. Various reputable publications have articles stating the same possible scenario.

Also, you think if the GOP managed to get both houses the economy will still suck? Or are you saying that if they gain control, all our problems will be solved and the economy will roar to life? You can't have it both ways. They are going to try to repeal everything, and just cause a fucking standstill. God it will be so good for the country to have a Rep Speaker with a fake tan not interested at all in helping the nation.

IMHO - there is nothing that can "save" this economy now... The Fed induced credit bubbles are unwinding themselves.. and the US is on path to a currency crisis, as Bernanke tries to re-inflate this economy by debasing the currency in some sort of sordid Freudian-Keynesian insanity...

BOTH parties are at fault for the policy fuck-ups that have neutered the economy... Congress and the POTUS have been Dem/Rep forever... those parties are in power, they both share the blame.

I don't think a majority for either party in Congress has ever been very good for the country.. as I've stated before I think both are beholden to business first... themselves, then the People LAST..

At a minimum I see them losing the House.. if they lose the House and Senate then we get 2 years over-reaching to the far right.. with Obama symbolically vetoing everything... or becoming more centrist to play nice with the Reps, fend off Senatorial subpoenas and preserve his presidential legacy.

All of this is going to be purely a reaction to the economy... right or wrong.. ant the party in power will get blamed and feel the voter wrath.

As far as the Speaker goes... we simply will be replacing a Speaker with an overly stretched face with a Speaker with an overly tanned face

[ohsherrie]

Also, you think if the GOP managed to get both houses the economy will still suck? Or are you saying that if they gain control, all our problems will be solved and the economy will roar to life? You can't have it both ways. They are going to try to repeal everything, and just cause a fucking standstill. God it will be so good for the country to have a Rep Speaker with a fake tan not interested at all in helping the nation.

Ironic isn't it Dean? Back in 2006 and 2007 when we, along with TNC and 7 Wishes, tried to tell them that this was where Bush and his band of economic blood suckers were taking this economy they said it would never happen. Now that their house of cards economy, built on Wall Street paper instead of Main Street labor, crashed IN 2008, it's all Obama's fault.

Obama hasn't done what I think he should have to solve this mess that Reagan started, and the worst of it is that he's tried too hard to please Boner and his band of NO-bodies. But by damned he didn't cause this economic disaster and if the repubs, get back in power and put the same greed driven economic policies back in place the USA will end up as a feudal state of Corporate Barons and pathetic peons. And whether they want to believe it or not, I don't see any of the repub, kool-aid drinking lemmings on here becoming Barons.

I don't know if Obama is re-electable or not. If he isn't it's not because of his economic policies. I think Hillary is very electable, but she'll face the same repub/tea bagger tyranny that Obama is facing now and I don't know if she's got the support to withstand it. Obama certainly doesn't because he's black and anybody who doesn't think that's in play in this game is crazy as shit bugs. (but then they are repubs)

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

some sort of sordid Freudian-Keynesian insanity...

LOL what is sordid Freudian Keynesian insanity - Dreaming about sleeping with your mother whilst simultaneosly spending money that you dont have.?

either way might be a good album title.

[ohsherrie]

In case anybody is interested in facts rather than repub hyperbole:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201368300

Talk about ironies:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lack-of-s ... 7.html?x=0

[ohsherrie]

According to the NDN ( http://ndn.org/about )

The results of Boner's deficit reduction suggestions:

1. Fully Extend the Bush Tax Cuts.
Increase deficits and debt by $3.8 trillion over ten years.

2. Have the president veto the Employee Free Choice Act, a carbon tax or cap and trade, and "any other tax increases on families and small businesses" if passed during a lame-duck session of Congress.
Unable to assess impact of hypotheticals, but the provision impairs ability to address deficits and debt, including the potential loss of $624 billion in revenue over ten years from a carbon regime.

3. Call on Congress to repeal the provision in healthcare reform mandating that small businesses file IRS 1099 forms on purchases of over $600.
Increase the deficits and debt by $17 billion over ten years per Congressional Budget Office estimate. The provision was included in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act to close the business tax gap.

4. Reduce non-defense discretionary spending to 2008 levels.
In 2008, non-defense discretionary spending was approximately $494 billion. Under the President's proposed 2011 budget, non-security discretionary spending is $530 billion. In his State of the Union Address, the President announced a three year freeze on non-security discretionary spending, and levels drop to $490 billion in 2012 and $480 billion in 2013. Boehner's remarks did not address a plan beyond that point. This proposal would therefore save $36 billion next year and nothing thereafter.

5. Resignations of the President's economic team, starting with Secretary of the Treasury Geithner and National Economic Council Director Larry Summers.
The position of NEC Director is not Senate confirmed, so it is fair to estimate that it would take the Administration two weeks to fill that position. Estimating for the taxes paid on his $172,000 annual salary, two weeks without an NEC Director would save the Federal government between $5000 and $6000.Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner makes an annual salary of $191,300. Because he is Senate confirmed, it is safe to estimate that it will take two months for his confirmation. Therefore, two months without a Treasury Secretary would likely save the Federal government between $25,000 and 26,000. Therefore, these resignations amount to a fiscal impact of $30,000 - $32,000 of deficit reduction over the next two months.

Total Fiscal Impact of the Boehner Plan: Increase Deficits and Debt by roughly $3.781 trillion over ten years.