OFFICIAL 2010-2011 NFL season & predictions thread:

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby Enigma869 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:40 pm

Rockindeano wrote:Dude, you do know Brett Favre is the all time leader in yards passing, touchdowns, completions and attempts right?


Sure he does. The fucking guy has been playing since the world was flat. You conveniently forget to mention that he's also the all-time leader in interceptions!

Rockindeano wrote:You do know he has a Super Bowl ring, right?


So does Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Jim McMahon, and Trent Dilfer!

Rockindeano wrote:The guy is a Gun Slinger and a tough old dude who plays hurt, plays through obvious pain and plays with more guts than any other QB in the league. So he throws picks? Everyone throws picks. I agree with the majority of what you say here regardless of topic, but you are dead wrong with reference to Brett Favre.


Listen Dean...you know I love you man, but we'll just agree to disagree on this topic. Favre is the biggest fucking fraud in the history of the NFL. His yearly retirement tour is fucking nauseating and anyone who can defend his bullshit act each off-season shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a sports fan. I'll never disagree that Favre is a tough guy and plays hurt. That said, it doesn't make him an elite NFL QB. The funny thing with Favre is that he's a VERY predictable QB. Anyone who has watched the guy (whether a fan or not) knows that this guy is going to give the game away when it matters most. He always has and always will. If the Favre ball washers want to genuflect at his scrotum, more power to them. Just don't tell me that this guy belongs in the same sentence with Joe Montana or even Tom Brady, because he doesn't! If the guy was half as good as some think he is, he wouldn't have just one ring in TWENTY freakin' seasons!
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Postby Angel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Enigma869 wrote:
Rockindeano wrote:Dude, you do know Brett Favre is the all time leader in yards passing, touchdowns, completions and attempts right?


Sure he does. The fucking guy has been playing since the world is flat. You conveniently forget to mention that he's also the all-time leader in interceptions!

....and retirements.
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Postby S2M » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:58 pm

Favre didnt do shit in that SB against the Pats either....Desmond Howard won that for GB...
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Postby YoungJRNY » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:59 pm

Sure he does. The fucking guy has been playing since the world is flat. You conveniently forget to mention that he's also the all-time leader in interceptions!


I know Favre apologist and Favre haters will never see eye to eye on this argument but I don't think you give him the necc. credit he should automatically as an athlete at the professional level. To be apart of the NFL for 20 seasons is a milestone in itself, but to stay relevant during that time of being the star QB for almost 2 decades where era's have come and gone is incredible. The amount of passing attempts VS interceptions during a 20 year career goes hand in hand and is expected, esp how Favre plays the position.

If the guy was half as good as some think he is, he wouldn't have just one ring in TWENTY freakin' seasons!


Same could be said for Dan Marino, who played for 17 seasons. What gives to the argument? Football is a team game and the personal of the teams all QB's play on change drastically in a year's notice. Favre has single handily built the Green Bay empire of being Super Bowl contenders during his era playing for the Packers and the same could be said about the Vikings. At age 40, Favre had one of his best seasons ever and turned Minny into a juggernaut last season. Favre had a helping hand at the kind of success that the Vikings experienced last season. The jury is still out for this season, but Favre will go down as possibly the top 3-4 QB's that ever lived.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:03 pm

S2M wrote:Favre didnt do shit in that SB against the Pats either....Desmond Howard won that for GB...


Favre completed 14/ 27 passes for 246 yards and 2 touchdowns, and also had a rushing touchdown. Favre became the first Super Bowl winning quarterback to have at least three touchdowns (2 throwing, 1 rushing) and not be named MVP. He didn't have an interception. I'd say he had a nice performance being involved in 21 out of the 35 points the Pack scored in that SB. That bomb to Risen sure was pretty though, you have to admit. The only reason Howard got the MVP was because he clinched the game winner on a 99 yard kick return but Favre certainly was worthy of the honor.

To put things into perspective, Tom Brady didn't have good numbers against the Rams neither and was named MVP. He went 16/27 for only 145 yards and 1 touchdown. Adam Vinatieri kicked the game winning FG with 0:00 remaining. Why wasn't Vinatieri considered the MVP when he clinched the game ala Howard?
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:33 pm

YoungJRNY wrote:
S2M wrote:Favre didnt do shit in that SB against the Pats either....Desmond Howard won that for GB...


Favre completed 14/ 27 passes for 246 yards and 2 touchdowns, and also had a rushing touchdown. Favre became the first Super Bowl winning quarterback to have at least three touchdowns (2 throwing, 1 rushing) and not be named MVP. He didn't have an interception. I'd say he had a nice performance being involved in 21 out of the 35 points the Pack scored in that SB. That bomb to Risen sure was pretty though, you have to admit. The only reason Howard got the MVP was because he clinched the game winner on a 99 yard kick return but Favre certainly was worthy of the honor.

To put things into perspective, Tom Brady didn't have good numbers against the Rams neither and was named MVP. He went 16/27 for only 145 yards and 1 touchdown. Adam Vinatieri kicked the game winning FG with 0:00 remaining. Why wasn't Vinatieri considered the MVP when he clinched the game ala Howard?


Fuck dude, you are a solid debater, especially when you present facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but not their own facts. Facts are a universal entity. You just destroyed JfB like the Jedi troops destroyed the Death Star.....with facts shot down a small hole and blew up his ass. I still love JFB, but disagree with him here.
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:34 pm

S2M wrote:Favre didnt do shit in that SB against the Pats either....Desmond Howard won that for GB...


You mean to tell me you aren't blaming the Pats loss on a suspect hold or an obvious offsides? :lol:
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Postby Eric » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:51 pm

All I heard from people was how much Favre sucked last season. He had 38 TD's and 7 picks.
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Postby Enigma869 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:20 pm

Eric wrote:All I heard from people was how much Favre sucked last season. He had 38 TD's and 7 picks.


I'm not sure who the hell you're listening to but I didn't hear ANYONE say that Favre sucked last season. Hell, it was probably the greatest season of his career. That said, he still puked on his shoes when it mattered, in the playoffs!
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Postby Enigma869 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:21 pm

Rockindeano wrote:Fuck dude, you are a solid debater, especially when you present facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but not their own facts. Facts are a universal entity. You just destroyed JfB like the Jedi troops destroyed the Death Star.....with facts shot down a small hole and blew up his ass. I still love JFB, but disagree with him here.


Deano...You must have been half in the bag when you wrote this, because Travis' comments weren't toward me. I didn't say a word about Favre's Super Bowl performance against the Patriots.
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Postby Enigma869 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:49 pm

YoungJRNY wrote: I know Favre apologist and Favre haters will never see eye to eye on this argument but I don't think you give him the necc. credit he should automatically as an athlete at the professional level. To be apart of the NFL for 20 seasons is a milestone in itself, but to stay relevant during that time of being the star QB for almost 2 decades where era's have come and gone is incredible. The amount of passing attempts VS interceptions during a 20 year career goes hand in hand and is expected, esp how Favre plays the position.


Do me a favor...go back and look at Favre's performances in the playoffs over the past 10 seasons and then come back and tell be how "incredible" he is. I won't even talk about what a complete attention whore, fraud the guy is. Simply look at his play on the field. It speaks for itself. No QB has cost his team more games in the playoffs over the past 10 seasons than Favre has. The NFL has ALWAYS been about winning championships and playing big in big games. The Favre ballwashers would have you believe that he is a QB that has done that when NOTHING could be further from the truth. The reality is that since 1998, the guy's playoff record is an embarrassing 4-7 and in almost every loss, he has been the one who has gagged away the game by not just throwing a pick but by heaving the ball and paying ZERO attention to where it might land. Brett's cock gets hard when all the yahoo fans call him a "gunslinger" so he can't help but play like a buffoon. Like I said, the guy's playoff record and performance speaks for itself.

YoungJRNY wrote:
Same could be said for Dan Marino, who played for 17 seasons. What gives to the argument?


Not even sure why you're bringing up Marino, but I'll indulge you. I never claimed that Marino belongs in the conversation with Montana because he certainly doesn't. What I will say is that Marino has more class in a finger than that douche Favre has. Favre also played most of his career with FAR more talent than Marino ever did! You could make the argument that Favre has been playing on a team with the best running back in the NFL the past two seasons (for the record, I don't think Peterson is the best running back in the NFL). Favre also played with far better teams in Green Bay than Marino ever played with. Clayton and Duper were VERY average receivers and Marino was that team.

YoungJRNY wrote:Favre has single handily built the Green Bay empire of being Super Bowl contenders during his era playing for the Packers



What the fuck are you talking about? What fucking "empire" did Favre build? You do realize this dude has won only one more ring than me, right? Step away from the crack pipe and find some fucking sanity!

YoungJRNY wrote:Favre will go down as possibly the top 3-4 QB's that ever lived.


Based on what? He's not better than Montana. He's not better than Elway. He's not better than Peyton Manning. He's not better than Brady. He's not better than Johnny Unitas. He's not even better than Dan Marino or Fran Tarkenton!
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Postby Everett » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:07 am

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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:56 am

Saint John wrote:
Big Ben is a lot better than Rivers. Look at the passes he made in the clutch moments of the playoffs and Super Bowl. Absolutely incredible. I expect Travis to pop in here and post the youtube clips for us at any moment. :lol:


I'm with SJ on this one. Ben gets the nod just by virtue of the two rings. If I had to pick a guy in a fantasy league, it's really no contest between them. I'd take Rivers 100 out of 100 times, but if you're talking about accomplishments in the NFL on the big stage, it's simply not even debatable.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:05 am

My opinion still hasn't changed and I don't care how much crack you think I smoke. I think it's easy for anyone to say that Favre and Hall of Fame/Great quarterback will always be mentioned in the same sentence of the all-time greats at the end of the day. If that makes me a moron, so be it but I look at the overall picture and I've come to conclusion that there isn't anyone out there over the past couple decades that turned performances into magic whenever and wherever the time presented itself. For me, watching Favre is just energizing and his presence adds more to the excitement to the game over any other QB that's ever played, OR any other player of the game for that matter. I know that doesn't make him "elite" but talkin' career, he's one of the best of what he offered to his team and was the sole reason why Green Bay was Super Bowl contenders for all those years, even til the bitter end of the 2007 season.

He's not better than Montana.

Opinion.


He's not better than Elway.


Opinion.

He's not better than Peyton Manning.


Opinion.

He's not better than Brady.


Opinion.

He's not better than Johnny Unitas.


Opinion.

He's not even better than Dan Marino or Fran Tarkenton!


Opinion & Opinion.

It's all a fair debate any way you want to look at it, but at the end of the day, Favre's name will be mentioned in the thick of things with those names you just mentioned above. Who's "better" will always be up for debate but remember that I don't care how many years Favre played, he has every passing record in the book and that won't change for a long, long time (depending on how long Manning plays atleast.)
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Postby S2M » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:17 am

One thing...LONGEVITY stats don't impress me. 99% of the time it means you over-stayed your welcome. Favre has those records because he stayed a good 5-6 years beyond what he should have....If Manning plays til he's 40, a BIG if...and he averages 4,000 yds a season - he'll have over 90,000 yds. Favre stayed too long....hence his records.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:20 am

S2M wrote:One thing...LONGEVITY stats don't impress me. 99% of the time it means you over-stayed your welcome. Favre has those records because he stayed a good 5-6 years beyond what he should have....If Manning plays til he's 40, a BIG if...and he averages 4,000 yds a season - he'll have over 90,000 yds. Favre stayed too long....hence his records.


If anything, the longevity of his career impress's me even more. The wear and tear of this dude's body is amazing. I can't believe the guy can even stand up right. 20 years, never missing a game at the pro level. Think about it. On average, an athlete these days only lasts about 4-5 years if not elite. IMHO, Manning could possibly play LONGER than Favre has when it's all said and done because Manning rarely ever gets hit during a coarse of the season while during Favre's career, he's takin some nasty bruises weekly, which all translates to the style of quarterbacking. Favre is reckless, Manning is possibly one of the smartest EVER that's played the game at any level.
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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:21 am

YoungJRNY wrote: I don't care how many years Favre played, he has every passing record in the book and that won't change for a long, long time (depending on how long Manning plays atleast.)


You better look up the passing statistics of Manning, Young Lad, because unless Manning snaps his neck, Favre's records won't hold up nearly as long as you seem to think they will. Now...you said that the QB's I said were better than Favre were only "Opinion", and while I certainly never claimed they were anything beyond that, get off the fucking fence and step up to the plate with your own opinion. Tell me of the guys I mentioned who Favre is better than and then tell me why. By the way, I'm not listening to the fact that he's better than anyone because he has more passing yards. More passing yards is canceled out by more interceptions than anyone on the planet! None of the guys I mentioned played as long as Favre has played. He's played at least 3 seasons longer than anyone on the list, and a guy like Johnny Unitas played 12 game seasons. I realize that you're not old enough to have seen much of any of their careers with the exception of Brady and Manning, but I'm willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.
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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:33 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
If anything, the longevity of his career impress's me even more. The wear and tear of this dude's body is amazing. I can't believe the guy can even stand up right. 20 years, never missing a game at the pro level. Think about it. On average, an athlete these days only lasts about 4-5 years if not elite. IMHO, Manning could possibly play LONGER than Favre has when it's all said and done because Manning rarely ever gets hit during a coarse of the season while during Favre's career, he's takin some nasty bruises weekly, which all translates to the style of quarterbacking. Favre is reckless, Manning is possibly one of the smartest EVER that's played the game at any level.


Sure longevity counts for something, because if the guy wasn't good enough, he certainly wouldn't be around for as long as he's been around. That said, you can't ignore the fact that he has more passing yards and TD's than any other QB who has ever played but has also played longer than any QB who ever played. Anyone who doesn't get the connection has their head up their ass. Marino played 17 seasons and had every record under the sun. At the end of Favre's 17th season, he hadn't caught Marino in any category. That's fact and not opinion! Playing longer doesn't make someone better and having records doesn't always make someone better. It all comes down to the eyeball test. Emmitt Smith has more rushing yards than ANY RB in the history of the NFL, and I don't know anyone outside of Dallas who would ever claim that he's the greatest RB to ever play. The reality is that Emmitt Smith rushed for 18,355 yards over 15 seasons, while Barry Sanders rushed for 15,269 yards over just 10 seasons, on FAR worse teams. I think I can safely say that if Barry Sanders hung around for the 5 extra years that Smith played, he easily would have surpassed his career rushing numbers, even behind a dreadful offensive line! Anyone who thinks Barry wasn't going to rack up 3000 yards (which is about the difference between the two guys) over 5 years didn't watch the guy play.
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Postby S2M » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:42 am

Biggest Barry fan here...ask MG. :lol: Barry stays 5 more years he has over 20,000 yds. And that, my friend, is a record that NOBODY beats.

But...just like Favre who has the most yds, but also the most INTs....Sanders probably has the most negative yard gains that anyone else too.... :lol:
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Postby YoungJRNY » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:45 am

You better look up the passing statistics of Manning, Young Lad, because unless Manning snaps his neck, Favre's records won't hold up nearly as long as you seem to think they will.


I understand how close Manning is to Favre's records and the pace at which Manning is playing right now, Manning will shatter them in the years to come, but then again, maybe he won't. That remains to be seen. Who knows what could happen through the coarse of the career with Peyton Manning when talking statistical records because lots of variables and intangibles has a lot to do with the up-coming success of Manning. Favre HAS the records. It's up to Manning to play the necc. years and take those records and call him his own. Until that happens, we can elaborate all we want. Favre's still #1 for now anyway you spin it.

Comparing "stats" is one thing (stats don't tell the whole entire story of how a football game was played) but when it comes down to it, Peyton Manning's playoff record in the playoffs isn't that far off of how bad Favre's is. As GREAT as Manning is and how he dominates and continues to dominate in this passing era, he STILL only has one ring as well. Even with Dan Marino holding all those records during his time, if he was THAT good for 17 solid seasons, then where's the Super Bowl ring? Marino also played in a Super Bowl and lost his chance. How will it be measured in the end?

get off the fucking fence and step up to the plate with your own opinion.


I think it's pretty clear what my opinion is, haha. I don't see myself riding any fence, just my personal opinion.

More passing yards is canceled out by more interceptions than anyone on the planet!


Okay, then interceptions are canceled out for how many touchdown pass's he's had more than anyone on the planet. :roll:

None of the guys I mentioned played as long as Favre has played.


That shouldn't be held against Favre and the certain numbers he's put up during the history of his career. Point is, he got it done and reached those milestone's as a competitor of the game, nothing more, nothing less. It could also be said that all those guys mentioned above who DIDN'T play as long as Favre, sure didn't have the mileage on their arm that Favre did, or the injuries, or the bumps and bruises, or the pounding the body takes during those 3 extra seasons. Plus, comparing Johnny Unitas's statistics to today's day in age is a moot point.

Unitas played in an era where middle linebackers were 160 pounds and safeties who ran the 40's ala a lineman would today. Favre simply evolved with the speed of the game and remained relevant. At the end of Marino's career, he seemed gassed and done and was ready for retirement. Last year, Favre didn't show any of those effects and still had it, even without training camps and what not.

I really don't have an answer on how to change your mind as to "whose better" when talking a bunch of H.O.F quarterbacks. I don't claim nor think Favre is the best ever, but I do think the discussion will always be in those cards when talking Favre versus whomever. Different people will have a certain QB ranked above or beneath another on their boards and that's always judged by personal reference.

The intangibles can range from anywhere and different era's have been played within each QB within the league. I'm not here to prove anything or to change your mind on how you feel about Favre, but more than likely, in the record and history books, Brett Favre's picture will be in those almanac's when I show my kids one day on how the game was played in the prior day.
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Postby RedWingFan » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:06 am

YoungJRNY wrote: I'm not here to prove anything or to change your mind on how you feel about Favre, but more than likely, in the record and history books, Brett Favre's picture will be in those almanac's when I show my kids one day on how the game was played in the prior day.

While your at it, don't forget to tell your kids to avoid lying to and about their team that purposefully damages their chances of winning....just to get out of their contract! :D If I was Charles Woodson I would have had knocked his teeth down his gullet!
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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:00 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
I understand how close Manning is to Favre's records and the pace at which Manning is playing right now, Manning will shatter them in the years to come, but then again, maybe he won't. That remains to be seen. Who knows what could happen through the coarse of the career with Peyton Manning when talking statistical records because lots of variables and intangibles has a lot to do with the up-coming success of Manning. Favre HAS the records. It's up to Manning to play the necc. years and take those records and call him his own. Until that happens, we can elaborate all we want. Favre's still #1 for now anyway you spin it.


Dude...You never answered the question. I'm calling you out here and now...You said that Favre was a top 3 or 4 QB of "all-time". Who are your top 5 QB of all time. I'm genuinely interested to see your list.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:36 am

Enigma869 wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
I understand how close Manning is to Favre's records and the pace at which Manning is playing right now, Manning will shatter them in the years to come, but then again, maybe he won't. That remains to be seen. Who knows what could happen through the coarse of the career with Peyton Manning when talking statistical records because lots of variables and intangibles has a lot to do with the up-coming success of Manning. Favre HAS the records. It's up to Manning to play the necc. years and take those records and call him his own. Until that happens, we can elaborate all we want. Favre's still #1 for now anyway you spin it.


Dude...You never answered the question. I'm calling you out here and now...You said that Favre was a top 3 or 4 QB of "all-time". Who are your top 5 QB of all time. I'm genuinely interested to see your list.


Off the top of my head without even thinking I'd have to say:

Elway, Unitas, Montana, and Marino as top 4.

Favre, Young, Aikmen, Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton, Starr, and even Warner, Manning or Brady could be argued in that category from 5 on, but I'll say Elway is the best ever on my list at what he brought and the style of sandlot football made him un-approachable. What he could do with his legs are underrated as well and that's what made Elway the most feared QB of his time (and to think it took him well into his mature and last 2 years to win a Title.)
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Postby Michigan Girl » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:58 am

S2M wrote:Biggest Barry fan here...ask MG. :lol: Barry stays 5 more years he has over 20,000 yds. And that, my friend, is a record that NOBODY beats.

But...just like Favre who has the most yds, but also the most INTs....Sanders probably has the most negative yard gains that anyone else too.... :lol:

'tis true ...you' re the biggest, I'm the best ...
I agree w/all of the above (of course some of it is just very logical speculation)
And I would like to add, he didn't do much catching either ...
but I have never witnessed such a thing of beauty on the field ....ping, pong, poing ~
where was he going next?!?!
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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:52 am

YoungJRNY wrote:[

Off the top of my head without even thinking I'd have to say:

Elway, Unitas, Montana, and Marino as top 4.

Favre, Young, Aikmen, Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton, Starr, and even Warner, Manning or Brady could be argued in that category from 5 on, but I'll say Elway is the best ever on my list at what he brought and the style of sandlot football made him un-approachable. What he could do with his legs are underrated as well and that's what made Elway the most feared QB of his time (and to think it took him well into his mature and last 2 years to win a Title.)


Thanks for finally answering the question. We're definitely not on the same page when it comes to this debate. While championships do matter and matter a lot, Aikman and Bradshaw aren't even in the conversation, because in spite of playing for great teams, neither guy was the reason those teams won and neither guy had any numbers, AT ALL! Elway was a great player but I don't know how anyone can't rank the guy ahead of Montana. Montana is the gold standard for QB's. The guy has 4 rings (Elway has 2), 3 Super Bowl MVP's (Elway has one), 2 league MVP's (Elway has 1), a 16-7 playoff record (Elway is a very respectable 14-7, but still not as good as Montana). Elway does have 10K more passing yards, but only 27 more TD's than Montana. Elway also threw about 100 more interceptions in his career than Montana did. The other thing to point out here is that even though on paper it looks like Elway only played one extra season, when you look closer at the numbers, Montana played only 1 game his rookie season, 7 games his second season and 0 games in the 1992 season. Elway never played fewer than 11 games, including his rookie season, so he effectively played three seasons longer than Montana. Montana has more rings, more mvp awards, far fewer interceptions, a better playoff record, and almost as many TD's. I'm not sure how Elway comes out ahead in this argument!
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Postby YoungJRNY » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:13 am

We're definitely not on the same page when it comes to this debate


If you're shocked, raise your hand! :lol:

I'm not saying Montana isn't or is the best quarterback who ever lived. Some and MANY have Montana at #1 and respectively so. His numbers are far and above anyone else, and like you said, championships as well. But Elway had more game as far as making things happen in different ways more than one. Montana was nothing short of an EPIC pocket passer while Elway, esp early in his career, could do damage with his legs as well. Elway was prolific when it came to getting out of the pocket and creating a mess for defense's, rushing for 3,407 yards in his career with 33 rushing touchdowns. That's 1,731 more yards rushing than Montana and 13 more touchdowns as well so that has to be calculated in the conversation as well. (Montana also had THEE best wide receiver to EVER play the game in Jerry Rice for 8 seasons, so that's a factor in comparison.)

I just think Elway was more of a bitch to contend with than anyone else of his time because he gave you an all around game to offend and was a helluva gritty football player to boot and would lower his shoulders for the extra yardage.

Stats can be thrown everywhere but I look at other things as well to an overall player so Elway, individually tops my list as the best all around Quarterback.
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Postby S2M » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:36 am

Don't forget, Elway was the whiny bitch that got drafted by the Baltimore Colts in '83...whined about not wanting to be there. So he was traded to Denver. Elway is Eli Manning's hero. Both whiny bitches...

Also don't forget that Montana's regular season stats are padded due to playing in THE worst division in the league during the 80s...it must've been nice to start every year already 6-0, 5-1, or 5-2....Atlanta didn't have a .500 season. N.O had ONE 10+ win season, and Rams had ONE 10+ win season...must've been nice....oh, and it was a 4 team division. Only the AFC Central, and NFC West had 4 teams...everyone else had 5...point is - they had it easy.
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Postby Enigma869 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:51 am

YoungJRNY wrote:I'm not saying Montana isn't or is the best quarterback who ever lived. Some and MANY have Montana at #1 and respectively so. His numbers are far and above anyone else, and like you said, championships as well. But Elway had more game as far as making things happen in different ways more than one. Montana was nothing short of an EPIC pocket passer while Elway, esp early in his career, could do damage with his legs as well. Elway was prolific when it came to getting out of the pocket and creating a mess for defense's, rushing for 3,407 yards in his career with 33 rushing touchdowns. That's 1,731 more yards rushing than Montana and 13 more touchdowns as well so that has to be calculated in the conversation as well. (Montana also had THEE best wide receiver to EVER play the game in Jerry Rice for 8 seasons, so that's a factor in comparison.)

I just think Elway was more of a bitch to contend with than anyone else of his time because he gave you an all around game to offend and was a helluva gritty football player to boot and would lower his shoulders for the extra yardage.

Stats can be thrown everywhere but I look at other things as well to an overall player so Elway, individually tops my list as the best all around Quarterback.


I'm not with you on Elway's rushing statistics. They're not relevant when talking about great NFL QB's. Hell, I think Steve Grogan still holds the NFL rushing TD record for a season when he played for the Patriots many years ago. The point you made that I highlighted above is a point that I've made about Montana forever, and it is a fair point. I've always given Brady the nod, even over Montana because Brady won three championships with the worse collection of receivers EVER assembled on three Super Bowl winning teams. Montana had Jerry Rice during all of his four championships, and that fact cannot be ignored. See that...some common ground...finally!
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Postby Saint John » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:53 am

Enigma869 wrote:Thanks for finally answering the question. We're definitely not on the same page when it comes to this debate. While championships do matter and matter a lot, Aikman and Bradshaw aren't even in the conversation, because in spite of playing for great teams, neither guy was the reason those teams won and neither guy had any numbers, AT ALL! Elway was a great player but I don't know how anyone can't rank the guy ahead of Montana. Montana is the gold standard for QB's. The guy has 4 rings (Elway has 2), 3 Super Bowl MVP's (Elway has one), 2 league MVP's (Elway has 1), a 16-7 playoff record (Elway is a very respectable 14-7, but still not as good as Montana). Elway does have 10K more passing yards, but only 27 more TD's than Montana. Elway also threw about 100 more interceptions in his career than Montana did. The other thing to point out here is that even though on paper it looks like Elway only played one extra season, when you look closer at the numbers, Montana played only 1 game his rookie season, 7 games his second season and 0 games in the 1992 season. Elway never played fewer than 11 games, including his rookie season, so he effectively played three seasons longer than Montana. Montana has more rings, more mvp awards, far fewer interceptions, a better playoff record, and almost as many TD's. I'm not sure how Elway comes out ahead in this argument!


Elway retired at the top of his game ... after winning consecutive Super Bowls. It's a real shame he didn't try to become the first QB to ever win 3 straight. Personally, I think that Broncos team, with Elway at the helm in 1999, would have beat the shit out of the Saint fucking Louis Rams. The Rams/Titans Super Bowl was a joke and a shitfest. If you're gonna cite what Montana didn't do when he wasn't starting, I think it's fair to do the same for Elway (retiring). :wink:
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Postby Ehwmatt » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:56 am

S2M wrote:Don't forget, Elway was the whiny bitch that got drafted by the Baltimore Colts in '83...whined about not wanting to be there. So he was traded to Denver. Elway is Eli Manning's hero. Both whiny bitches...

Also don't forget that Montana's regular season stats are padded due to playing in THE worst division in the league during the 80s...it must've been nice to start every year already 6-0, 5-1, or 5-2....Atlanta didn't have a .500 season. N.O had ONE 10+ win season, and Rams had ONE 10+ win season...must've been nice....oh, and it was a 4 team division. Only the AFC Central, and NFC West had 4 teams...everyone else had 5...point is - they had it easy.


After visiting Denver for the first time last weekend, I can hardly say I blame Elway. What a city.
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