President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[conversationpc]

If you knew anything about insurance, you would know that the more people who are part of a group plan, the cheaper the cost of insurance is for each person. THAT is the real reason why everybody is required to have health insurance.

I'm pretty sure Stu already knows that.

[whirlwind]

[Memorex]

It is in my view, an absolute "right" to have health care. I don't consider it to be a luxury. This is something that I would insist on accomplishing in my term. When we have people dying every day in this country, because they simply do not have health insurance, that to me is unacceptable.

Where do you get health care is a right?

You are granted life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...those are natural rights...where do you find any right to health care in our founding documents?

Just because something is NOT in the God damned Constitution does not mean it cannot exist. This is MY belief, not yours. I am ENTITLED to my own beliefs.

And if you want to get sticky with this, why should a person be allowed to die just because he or she possesses no health insurance? Doesn't he or she have the right to life?

Stu, our Constitution is a great document, however, it was written too long ago to always be relevant, with the advent of automation and progress.

Ahhh a belief...well, you are entitled of course...but Healthcare isn't a right...and if you want to get sticky, the law, as it is written is unconstitutional, as you will see very soon via the Supreme Court...have the Constitution amended to say something like, "Healthcare shall be provided by the federal government for every citizen of the United States and shall be provided via statute as enacted by Congress".

Now lets address the "right to life" bit...doesn't a baby have a right to life? Roe v. Wade says it doesn't...because it is the right of a person to control his or her own body...so now...the Government is going to MANDATE that I get insurance...but isn't it MY right to do with my body as I choose? So why should I have to pay for insurance if I do not want to, it's my body and if I can't pay then I die...my decision to do so.

If you knew anything about insurance, you would know that the more people who are part of a group plan, the cheaper the cost of insurance is for each person. THAT is the real reason why everybody is required to have health insurance.

That would be true for anything. So how about all of you send me $10,000 each and I'll buy myself a house! Sweet deal!

[donnaplease]

And, what you are failing to absorb, or are just choosing to ignore, is all the bill is doing is paying for the discussion. So, it will happen more often. That is something YOU SHOULD BE IN FAVOR of. And, you fail to admit that Republicans turned this discussion into political scare-tactics by calling it a 'death panel'...a total lie, and instead you try to blame Obama for it. Cut through the bullshit and see what really happened.

Your arrogance is really annoying. When it comes to Washington, nothing is "total". My words from a few short days ago:

I have spent a significant amount of my career talking to patients and families about end-of-life choices. These decisions should absolutely be made as part of an 'advance directive' as opposed to at a time when fear and emotions weigh heavily on the ability to make sound decisions. No one wants to "decide" to let someone die - there can be a huge amount of guilt associated with that. I was responsible for helping both my parents and my brother decide end-of-life decisions, so I can also speak to it from a personal level. What I'm reading in the first article posted is that a provision in the bill now will reimburse a physician for the time spent counseling patients about the different aspects of advance directives - and there are tons of things to consider. In addition, there are many misconceptions about the choice to withhold certain treatments (such as the idea that Terry Shiavo 'starved to death' - this simply did not happen) that again once we get past the emotion of impending death it can be a very comforting thing to have these decisions made. With the portability of healthcare records these days it makes sense to have this discussion with your primary care physician.

Now, that said... I think what some people (myself included) are concerned about is the so-called 'slippery slope' that can lead to a "panel" deciding what treatments will be available to patients. For those of you who have been affected by this in the private sector, surely you can understand how this is a real concern for Medicare recipients, especially for those who are at the end of their life. BO's words (we all heard them) suggested that he might be in favor of this when he said that the 95 year old woman might be just as well off to 'take the pill' instead of getting the pacemaker. Hopefully there will be enough checks & balances in place to keep this from happening - I hope there will someone there watching the store.

This bill is robbing Peter to pay Paul - or in this case, 30-some million Pauls... If you think that services won't be cut, you are delusional. Obama has said that he thought perhaps a pacer for a 95 year old isn't a good idea, regardless of her quality of life. THAT should be the deciding factor - QUALITY OF LIFE. While his words may not translate to a 'death panel' (which I agree is a "scare tactic"), it is asolutely within the realm of possibility that seniors care will suffer as a result of the need to pay for care for more patients. So seniors should be scared, IMO. Dean is all about the Canadian HC system and how great it is, but it's common knowledge that folks have to wait for certain procedures that are readily available now in the US. They make choices about who gets what treatment, and/or how soon it will be available. That is not a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

I heard a good analogy of access to healthcare with this new bill. The person suggested that you watch people at a reception when there is an open bar, as opposed to having to pay for drinks. They are much more deliberate in their choices when they have to foot the bill as opposed to when someone else is paying. Think about it, it's absolutely true.

[S2M]

I agree that quality of life/age should be a factor as far as health care/coverage....There is no way a child should be overlooked for an organ for a 60+ year-old celebrity/athlete, or an 85 year-old person with money, who also has some OTHER debilitating condition.....errrr....Mickey Mantle.

[RossValoryRocks]

If you knew anything about insurance, you would know that the more people who are part of a group plan, the cheaper the cost of insurance is for each person. THAT is the real reason why everybody is required to have health insurance.

When has the government been able to do ANYTHING cheaper than the private sector? NEVER.

Remember $100 hammers and $300 toilet seats?

Keep believing what you like, you are wrong and I would laugh at your stupidity if I wasn't crying about what this bill is about to do to this country.

You obviously haven't read the bill...which just tells you what they are going to do, not how they are going to do it, that will come with the 100,000 pages of regulations.

As usual you libtards work from the premise of the least common denominator. Rather than build everyone up, you believe in tearing the successful and those who want to achieve down to make a "level" playing field.

[Monker]

If you knew anything about insurance, you would know that the more people who are part of a group plan, the cheaper the cost of insurance is for each person. THAT is the real reason why everybody is required to have health insurance.

When has the government been able to do ANYTHING cheaper than the private sector? NEVER.

Are you really this unable to comprehend what you read?

I did not say 'the government can do this cheaper...' I said that the more people who are in a group plan, the cheaper it is for everyone. Therefore, if a large number of people are not participating, then the price for EVERYBODY ELSE goes up. It doesn't matter if it is the government, or private sector, that's how it works.

[Seven Wishes2]

Each and every single one of us pays for health care for the uninsured via our taxes, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars per year.

[RossValoryRocks]

If you knew anything about insurance, you would know that the more people who are part of a group plan, the cheaper the cost of insurance is for each person. THAT is the real reason why everybody is required to have health insurance.

When has the government been able to do ANYTHING cheaper than the private sector? NEVER.

Are you really this unable to comprehend what you read?

I did not say 'the government can do this cheaper...' I said that the more people who are in a group plan, the cheaper it is for everyone. Therefore, if a large number of people are not participating, then the price for EVERYBODY ELSE goes up. It doesn't matter if it is the government, or private sector, that's how it works.

Don't play that game Monker, I comprehend just fine...you were refering to the government forcing people to buy coverage...and as a result the healthcare companies will raise rates to the point that companies will drop coverage on their employees and eat the fine, currently $500 per person per month, which is significantly less than what they will be paying person even now, there by forcing people on to the "government plan"...it is just that simple...where if they would just take down the barriers and allow companies to compete over state lines the prices would drop.

[RossValoryRocks]

Each and every single one of us pays for health care for the uninsured via our taxes, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars per year.

Which is still less than what the healthcare law is going to cost...and the CBO has said so. To the tune of $115 billion per year ADDED to what we pay now, over the next decade. Hell almost a THIRD of it is the administrative (read: Bureaucracy!) cost for the plan per year...$34 BILLION.

Again...I don't disagree we have to do SOMETHING to fix healthcare...I actually AGREE with you...but this law isn't it. It is going to cost so much to implement, and doesn't do what the administration said it would, namely LOWER costs.

Also we don't pay for it via taxes 7, we pay for it via increased healthcare costs to the rest of us. The government doesn't reimburse hospitals if people skip on their bills for whatever reason.

[Seven Wishes2]

Public medical assistance programs are all taxpayer-funded.

People without insurance are, in general and with all other variables like age being equal, less productive and more likely to take sick days than those who have insurance. This is because they are less likely to seek out preventive medical care. Indirectly, this reduced productivity impacts the prices we pay for every good, service or commodity. Everyone ends up paying for those who do not have health insurance.

[Rockindeano]

and as a result the healthcare companies will raise rates to the point that companies will drop coverage on their employees

LOL,more Mitch McConnel talking points. You Cons are a complete joke.

Let me ask you this Stu. If the Insurance companies raise their rates so high that companies will drop coverage,

A) They will eventually go out of business because no one will be left to pay premiums

B) Makes you wonder why the Hell the Public Option wasn't put into the bill. Had Gov't been able to provide insurance for those "dropped," they could have been a competitor to these evil cocksucking insurance companies. Only a republican would defend an insurance company. Unbelievable. And you wonder what party is on the side of the citizen? Good grief

PS-and if these insurance companies DO go belly up, I will throw a keg party each and every time one does.

[conversationpc]

B) Makes you wonder why the Hell thwe Public Option wasn't put into the bill. Had Gov't been able to provide insurance for those "dropped," they could have been a competitor to these evil cocksucking insurance companies. Only a republican would defend an insurance company. Unbelievable.

Only a Democrat would be dumb enough to believe that the imperial federal government, inept in almost everything they do, could successfully administer something like a healthcare system. Priceless.

And you wonder what party is on the side of the citizen? Good grief

1 - Republicans
2 - Democrats
3 - None of the Above

Correct Answer = 3

[RedWingFan]

1 - Republicans
2 - Democrats
3 - None of the Above

Correct Answer = 3

Pretty much, then when you have an entity like the Tea Party which wants to bring change to the way both parties operate, you have libs and other big government types try to tear them down and defend what's being done to bankrupt this country.

[Rick]

and as a result the healthcare companies will raise rates to the point that companies will drop coverage on their employees

LOL,more Mitch McConnel talking points. You Cons are a complete joke.

Let me ask you this Stu. If the Insurance companies raise their rates so high that companies will drop coverage,

A) They will eventually go out of business because no one will be left to pay premiums

B) Makes you wonder why the Hell thwe Public Option wasn't put into the bill. Had Gov't been able to provide insurance for those "dropped," they could have been a competitor to these evil cocksucking insurance companies. Only a republican would defend an insurance company. Unbelievable. And you wonder what party is on the side of the citizen? Good grief

PS-and if these insurance companies DO go belly up, I will throw a keg party each and every time one does.

And if I may chime in here, how can someone skip out on a hospital bill if everyone has insurance? A copay, yeah, but hospitals should realize a huge increase in income from not having bills skipped out on.

[Rockindeano]

THAT should be the deciding factor - QUALITY OF LIFE.

Let's talk "Quality of Life" shall we? I see 31 million Americans without health care. I just bet they all are overjoyed with a sense of "quality" in their life? Especially those that actually perish because they cannot afford a life saving surgery. I noticed not one of you CONS have ever responded to this sentence....Every time I mention that a US Citizen dies in this country, and it happens every single day, because of lack of insurance, not one of you say a word. Fuck them I guess. Their problem, I guess. Not my body, so what? Again, if the sole center of the GOP and most of it's followers aren't selfish, then I am out of words. Where's the compassion?

Remember, No one wins unless we all win.

[RossValoryRocks]

and as a result the healthcare companies will raise rates to the point that companies will drop coverage on their employees

LOL,more Mitch McConnel talking points. You Cons are a complete joke.

Let me ask you this Stu. If the Insurance companies raise their rates so high that companies will drop coverage,

A) They will eventually go out of business because no one will be left to pay premiums

B) Makes you wonder why the Hell thwe Public Option wasn't put into the bill. Had Gov't been able to provide insurance for those "dropped," they could have been a competitor to these evil cocksucking insurance companies. Only a republican would defend an insurance company. Unbelievable. And you wonder what party is on the side of the citizen? Good grief

PS-and if these insurance companies DO go belly up, I will throw a keg party each and every time one does.

You know what Dean you show each and every post that you do not read or study anything. I could care less what McConnel says...I did my own reading, research and came to my own conclusions, and from what I have seen in the market place and in the work place.

I know several companies that are just waiting, but will be dropping the coverage, because the cost to pay the fine is less than the cost to insure.

The only complete joke is that a man of your intelligence can even think that this healthcare law is a good thing. You don't care because you are already on the government dole, through no fault of your own I understand, but some of us don't want to go on a government run plan nor do some want to pay a tax because they made they choice NOT to buy healthcare.

[Rockindeano]

Only a Democrat would be dumb enough to believe that the imperial federal government, inept in almost everything they do, could successfully administer something like a healthcare system. Priceless.

Funny Dave, real funny, and real stupid. If you look north, you will see a large country who does an excellent job of what you just said cannot be done.

The Gov't does things that private enterprise cannot do at a profit. I don't see private enterprise paying for new stretches or highway? I don't see private enterprise carrying the mail, or providing mass transit, Amtrak, or building airports? See, there are SOME things that the private sector cannot do, and will not do, and the Federal Gov't then steps in and provides a service.

I just proved you wrong Dave, unless you come back with the standard GOP reply of "Canada's HC sucks."-- Which is laughable and an outright lie.

[RossValoryRocks]

THAT should be the deciding factor - QUALITY OF LIFE.

Let's talk "Quality of Life" shall we? I see 31 million Americans without health care. I just bet they all are overjoyed with a sense of "quality" in their life? Especially those that actually perish because they cannot afford a life saving surgery. I noticed not one of you CONS have ever responded to this sentence....Every time I mention that a US Citizen dies in this country, and it happens every single day, because of lack of insurance, not one of you say a word. Fuck them I guess. Their problem, I guess. Not my body, so what? Again, if the sole center of the GOP and most of it's followers aren't selfish, then I am out of words. Where's the compassion?

Remember, No one wins unless we all win.

You do know that 31 million bullshit number includes a TON of young people that a) either have catastrophic insurance only or b) have made a personal choice NOT to buy insurance? Right? I mean since you are such a intellectual number cruncher...yet another FALSE talking point spun out to us via the Great Deano...perveyor of complete lies and bullshit (in politics at least).

The actual number is more along the lines of 13 to 17 million that are not offered care through their employer or do not have the financial capability to afford it.

As for your stupid "wins" comment, Bullshit Karl Marx...no ones wins if we don't educate people to take care of themselves and not rely on the work of others to support them.

[Rockindeano]

I know several companies that are just waiting, but will be dropping the coverage, because the cost to pay the fine is less than the cost to insure.

Good. The less health insurance companies, the better. Then maybe we can ammend the law and get the Public option installed.

The only complete joke is that a man of your intelligence can even think that this healthcare law is a good thing. You don't care because you are already on the government dole, through no fault of your own I understand, but some of us don't want to go on a government run plan nor do some want to pay a tax because they made they choice NOT to buy healthcare.

Fuck you Douche. How the Hell am I on the Government dole? How fucking dare you say something so slanderous? Go to Hell.

[RossValoryRocks]

Only a Democrat would be dumb enough to believe that the imperial federal government, inept in almost everything they do, could successfully administer something like a healthcare system. Priceless.

Funny Dave, real funny, and real stupid. If you look north, you will see a large country who does an excellent job of what you just said cannot be done.

Then why do the so many Canadians comes to the US for their critical care?

The Gov't does things that private enterprise cannot do at a profit.

Yeah Wars and tax collection.

I don't see private enterprise paying for new stretches or highway?

When have they had the chance to do so?? Yet another bullshit argument.

I don't see private enterprise carrying the mail, or providing mass transit, Amtrak, or building airports? See, there are SOME things that the private sector cannot do, and will not do, and the Federal Gov't then steps in and provides a service.

For which the government fleecs us...If private companies were allowed to do so then they would do it faster, with less cost, and done better than the government can do.

I just proved you wrong Dave, unless you come back with the standard GOP reply of "Canada's HC sucks."-- Which is laughable and an outright lie.

No it isn't...I know plenty of people who live in Canada and not ONE of them likes their system for any serious medical care.

Also the greater NYC are has almost as many people as ALL of Canada does...34 Million...we have almost TEN times that number of people.

[conversationpc]

Only a Democrat would be dumb enough to believe that the imperial federal government, inept in almost everything they do, could successfully administer something like a healthcare system. Priceless.

Funny Dave, real funny, and real stupid. If you look north, you will see a large country who does an excellent job of what you just said cannot be done.

The Gov't does things that private enterprise cannot do at a profit. I don't see private enterprise paying for new stretches or highway? I don't see private enterprise carrying the mail, or providing mass transit, Amtrak, or building airports? See, there are SOME things that the private sector cannot do, and will not do, and the Federal Gov't then steps in and provides a service.

I just proved you wrong Dave, unless you come back with the standard GOP reply of "Canada's HC sucks."-- Which is laughable and an outright lie.

I lived near and worked in the southern tier area of New York for most of my life. The healthcare was so good in Canada that the natives were coming by the droves to get much of their healthcare in our area and the further north you would go towards the border from where I lived and worked was even more so.

As for private enterprise not paying for new stretches of highway? Happened right here in Indiana under Republican Governor Mitch Daniels. Saved the taxpayers billions of dollars and they did it cheaper than the government would have.

Mail delivery? Obviously private enterprise can't do that since the government has a monopoly on that market. However, private enterprise like FedEx, UPS, etc., all do a better job of delivering other goods.

[Angel]

THAT should be the deciding factor - QUALITY OF LIFE.

Let's talk "Quality of Life" shall we? I see 31 million Americans without health care. I just bet they all are overjoyed with a sense of "quality" in their life? Especially those that actually perish because they cannot afford a life saving surgery. I noticed not one of you CONS have ever responded to this sentence....Every time I mention that a US Citizen dies in this country, and it happens every single day, because of lack of insurance, not one of you say a word. Fuck them I guess. Their problem, I guess. Not my body, so what? Again, if the sole center of the GOP and most of it's followers aren't selfish, then I am out of words. Where's the compassion?

Remember, No one wins unless we all win.

OK, I'll take this one on....yeah, it probably happens but you are making it sound like there are no options without health insurance-that's not true. There are government assistance programs, there are medication assistance programs, many funded by the drug companies themselves. Not to mention that it is illegal to not provide life saving treatment to people regardless of their ability to pay. There are many resources available for people that don't have insurance-they are not perfect but they are there.

I am one of the most compassionate people you'll ever know-but at the same time I firmly believe that people need to do everything in their power to help themselves and contribute to society and it disgusts me when people strive to find every way possible to rely on society to take care of them insted of being self sufficient. Give a man a fish.......you know the rest.

[RossValoryRocks]

I know several companies that are just waiting, but will be dropping the coverage, because the cost to pay the fine is less than the cost to insure.

Good. The less health insurance companies, the better. Then maybe we can ammend the law and get the Public option installed.

The only complete joke is that a man of your intelligence can even think that this healthcare law is a good thing. You don't care because you are already on the government dole, through no fault of your own I understand, but some of us don't want to go on a government run plan nor do some want to pay a tax because they made they choice NOT to buy healthcare.

Fuck you Douche. How the Hell am I on the Government dole? How fucking dare you say something so slanderous? Go to Hell.

EMPLOYERS are going to stop providing healthcare.

Read the rest of it dickhead...not your fault...and isn't your disability the government dole??? And wait...if the government stuff is so good why are you so pissed about someone saying you are on the dole?

[Rockindeano]

You do know that 31 million bullshit number includes a TON of young people that a) either have catastrophic insurance only or b) have made a personal choice NOT to buy insurance? Right? I mean since you are such a intellectual number cruncher...yet another FALSE talking point spun out to us via the Great Deano...perveyor of complete lies and bullshit (in politics at least).
The actual number is more along the lines of 13 to 17 million that are not offered care through their employer or do not have the financial capability to afford it

Well, for the sake of this argument, I'll play along. Let's say there are "only 17 million Americans without insurance. I guess that number is low enough to be irrelevent, huh? Good God, 17 million people, regardless of why, is 17 million too many. I don't care what numbers you liars want to spin and throw out therwe, the FACT is not everyone is covered, and to me, that is fundamentally wrong.

As for your stupid "wins" comment, Bullshit Karl Marx...no ones wins if we don't educate people to take care of themselves and not rely on the work of others to support them.

Actually, I first heard this great quote from Springsteen back on the Born in the USA tour in '84.
It has always stuck in my mind as true spirited Americanism. I believe in those exact words wholeheartedly.

[RedWingFan]

I don't see private enterprise carrying the mail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqUmuZnmf7A

[Angel]

And if I may chime in here, how can someone skip out on a hospital bill if everyone has insurance? A copay, yeah, but hospitals should realize a huge increase in income from not having bills skipped out on.

Not necessarily, Rick. When the government pays the bill, they decide how much they will pay and often times, the amount they will pay is less than what it costs to provide the care. This is one of the reasons healthcare is so expensive to the rest of us-we have to pick up the difference.

[RossValoryRocks]

You do know that 31 million bullshit number includes a TON of young people that a) either have catastrophic insurance only or b) have made a personal choice NOT to buy insurance? Right? I mean since you are such a intellectual number cruncher...yet another FALSE talking point spun out to us via the Great Deano...perveyor of complete lies and bullshit (in politics at least).
The actual number is more along the lines of 13 to 17 million that are not offered care through their employer or do not have the financial capability to afford it

Well, for the sake of this argument, I'll play along. Let's say there are "only 17 million Americans without insurance. I guess that number is low enough to be irrelevent, huh? Good God, 17 million people, regardless of why, is 17 million too many. I don't care what numbers you liars want to spin and throw out therwe, the FACT is not everyone is covered, and to me, that is fundamentally wrong.

As for your stupid "wins" comment, Bullshit Karl Marx...no ones wins if we don't educate people to take care of themselves and not rely on the work of others to support them.

Actually, I first heard this great quote from Springsteen back on the Born in the USA tour in '84.
It has always stuck in my mind as true spirited Americanism. I believe in those exact words wholeheartedly.

The problem is HOW you liberals want to win...not by lifiting anyone up and helping them to success and prosperity, but by taking from people who have done the hard work to get ahead.

Let me ask you do you believe that it is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"?

Sounds like you do...

[Rockindeano]

Dave and Stu, there is no sense in arguing with you. Canadians are not arriving here in droves as you two numbfucks suggest. This has always been bullshit. Like I posted the other day, a recent Ottawa sun Poll found that 88% of Canucks are "verey happy" with the health insurance provided to them via the Canadian government.

I have always brought this argument to you and not ONE of you can properly refute it.

If Canada can cover ALL of it's citizen's, it will always , always be better than the United States. You people have blinders on, and can't see the forest for the trees. When will any of you understand that we need to take care of each other, through any and all means. It just solidifies the comment I always make regarding the GOP....selfish selfish and more selfish.

[Rockindeano]

I don't see private enterprise carrying the mail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqUmuZnmf7A

Out of context and you know it.

What Obama said was correct. The USPS IS having problems, but I can guarantee you that neither UPS or Fed Ex can deliver a stamped envelope from Seattle to Tampa for 44 cents. When I see a private enterprise do this, I will suck a big cock. Currently, UPS and Fed Ex charge 15 bucks for comparable service.

So the USPS has problems? They can be fixed...it's still a great and worthy Gov't service.