President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby conversationpc » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:49 am

Seven Wishes wrote:Re-read your posts. They were quite clear. You don't get to be a revisionist and try to suggest you were referring exclusively to "union bosses".


The revisionism is obviously on your side, asshole. I very clearly stated "Big Union" and that this "has nothing to do with the average worker". How that translates into the average teacher, fireman, policeman, etc., is beyond me.

So when you refer to Big Oil, does that mean you're slamming the workers in the oil fields, dudes driving the rigs delivering the oil, etc?
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Postby Seven Wishes2 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:06 am

Dave, apples and oranges.

I feel the same way about someone working on an oil rig or logging as I do someone in the public sector. As long as they're abiding environmental regulations, I'll fight for the rights of Joe Oil Drill Worker as much as I will for a teacher in Ohio.

OK, so if we can assume you're talking about the union execs, what does that have to do with the rights of the average policeman or fireman? They're FURIOUS at Walker - even more so after he revealed himself to be the Koch brothers' fluffer / whore. If that was your intent, and I misread your posting, I apologize. And again, I believe the public employees should have to shell out a geater share for their benefits. But their CB rights are sacred and should not be taken away. If those shoes were on YOUR feet I know you would feel the same.
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Postby lights1961 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:20 am

Seven Wishes wrote:
conversationpc wrote:should realize this has nothing to do with the average worker like the phony Dems are claiming it does.


It has EVERYTHING to do with the average worker. Cops, teachers, and firemen usually make far less than the median income of $54,000 per year. In fact, it's more like $35,000. Yeah, those Fat Cats are living a life of luxury off the taxpayer dollar. :roll:

Call me when the shuttle lands.


nah your wrong... this is about BIG UNIONS...and to remind yourself this... there is no money in the states to keep up entitlement retirment programs...and that is what the union worker gets after their tenured after how many years GUARANTED RETIREMENT...FOR FRICKING LIFE... I DONT GET THE TAKERS of this country... they think the money is all theres...in every govt program... I am sick of it... period... that is why the GOV in WI is is awesome... he is sick of it too...
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Postby RedWingFan » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:41 am

Seven Wishes wrote:Good Lord. The Democratic Party stands to wield considerably more power as a consequence of this.

Yup. Just like you said the Democrats were going to benefit in the polls when everyone discovered how wonderful Obamacare is.
Seven Wishes wrote:Keep alienating the average Joe - a large majority of whom believe the rich and wealthy corporations should be paying more taxes - and it will bite the GOP in the ass like a shark in 2012.

Okay, keep living in lala land.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ith_unions
48% Back GOP Governor in Wisconsin Spat, 38% Side With Unions
Monday, February 21, 2011


A sizable number of voters are following new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker’s showdown with unionized public employees in his state, and nearly half side with the governor.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely U.S. Voters agree more with the Republican governor in his dispute with union workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) agree more with the unionized public employees, while 14% are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

In an effort to close the state’s sizable budget deficit, Walker is proposing to eliminate collective bargaining for public employees including teachers on everything but wage issues. He is excluding public safety workers such as policemen and firemen from his plan.

Thirty-eight percent (38%) of voters think teachers, firemen and policemen should be allowed to go on strike, but 49% disagree and believe they should not have that right. Thirteen percent (13%) are not sure.

There’s strong partisan disagreement on both questions and a wide gap between the Political Class and Mainstream voters.

Thirty-six percent (36%) of all voters say that in their state the average public employee earns more than the average private sector worker. Twenty-one percent (21%) say the government employee earns less, while 20% think their pay is about the same. Twenty-three percent (23%) are not sure.

With states across the country finding that benefits for public workers are becoming difficult to fund in the current economic climate, support for public employee unions has fallen. Forty-five percent (45%) of Americans favor them, and 45% don’t. These findings include 21% who Strongly Favor such unions and 30% who are Strongly Opposed to them.


The survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted on February 18-19, 2011 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Field work for all Rasmussen Reports surveys is conducted by Pulse Opinion Research, LLC. See methodology.

Fifty percent (50%) of voters favor reducing their home state’s government payroll by one percent a year for 10 years either by reducing the number of state employees or by cutting the pay of state workers. Twenty-eight percent (28%) oppose a cut of this nature, while another 23% aren’t sure about it.

In a survey last month, voters were evenly divided over the idea of a 10% across-the-board pay cut for all state employees to help reduce overall spending.

Public employee unions have long been strong supporters, financially and otherwise, of Democratic Party candidates, so it’s no surprise that 68% of Democrats support the union workers in the Wisconsin dispute. Sixty-eight percent (68%) of Republicans and 56% of voters not affiliated with either of the major political parties side with the governor.

Most Democrats (54%) say teachers, firemen and policemen should be allowed to go on strike. The majority of GOP voters (62%) and unaffiliateds (58%) disagree.

While 61% of Republicans and 56% of unaffiliated voters like the idea of a one percent reduction in their state’s government payroll for the next 10 years, a plurality (41%) of Democrats are opposed.

The Political Class’ opposition is more emphatic. Sixty-four percent (64%) of Political Class voters oppose a payroll cut of this kind, while 56% of those in the Mainstream think it’s a good idea.

But then 56% of Mainstream voters agree more with the governor in the Wisconsin dispute, while 56% of the Political Class side with the union workers.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of all voters say they are following at least somewhat closely news reports about the Wisconsin governor’s effort to limit collective bargaining rights for most state employees, with 37% who are following Very Closely.

With new Republican majorities in both chambers of Wisconsin’s legislature, the governor’s plan is likely to pass, prompting thousands of protesting public workers and their allies to descend on the state capital. President Obama and the Rev. Jesse Jackson, among others, have publicly sided with the protestors, while national Republicans have backed the governor.

A sizable majority of Americans say their states are now having major budget problems, and they think spending cuts, not higher taxes, are the solution.

Most voters continue to oppose federal bailouts for financially troubled states. Voters aren’t thrilled with the idea of letting states declare bankruptcy, but they're more supportive if told government employees might have their pensions reduced in the process.

Seventy-eight percent (78%) of Americans say politicians’ unwillingness to reduce government spending is to blame for the budget crises in many states.

When it comes to the nation’s historic-level federal budget deficit, 70% of all voters think voters are more willing to make the hard choices needed to reduce government spending than elected politicians are.

Sixty-six percent (66%) of all voters nationwide favor a proposal to cut the federal payroll by 10% over the coming decade.

Sixty-eight percent (68%) of Americans think workers in the private sector work harder than government workers.
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Postby RedWingFan » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:50 am

Seven Wishes wrote:
conversationpc wrote:should realize this has nothing to do with the average worker like the phony Dems are claiming it does.


It has EVERYTHING to do with the average worker. Cops, teachers, and firemen usually make far less than the median income of $54,000 per year. In fact, it's more like $35,000. Yeah, those Fat Cats are living a life of luxury off the taxpayer dollar. :roll:

Call me when the shuttle lands.

Uh I, don't know about cops or fireman but teachers in Wisconsin make an average salary of $51,000 + $38,406 in yearly benefits for a total of $89,527 per teacher according to the CQ Press EDU State rankings.

Better check your "facts" chief!
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Postby conversationpc » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:30 am

Seven Wishes wrote:Dave, apples and oranges.

I feel the same way about someone working on an oil rig or logging as I do someone in the public sector. As long as they're abiding environmental regulations, I'll fight for the rights of Joe Oil Drill Worker as much as I will for a teacher in Ohio.

OK, so if we can assume you're talking about the union execs, what does that have to do with the rights of the average policeman or fireman? They're FURIOUS at Walker - even more so after he revealed himself to be the Koch brothers' fluffer / whore. If that was your intent, and I misread your posting, I apologize. And again, I believe the public employees should have to shell out a geater share for their benefits. But their CB rights are sacred and should not be taken away. If those shoes were on YOUR feet I know you would feel the same.


Yes, you misread my post. I've been a union member. My Dad was a union member for most, it not all, his adult life (until he retired). I've been the average Joe Union Guy. What I'm talking about is the Democratic party sucking up to Big Union execs, who are really the same thing as a corrupt CEO of a public company.
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Postby conversationpc » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:31 am

RedWingFan wrote:
Seven Wishes wrote:
conversationpc wrote:should realize this has nothing to do with the average worker like the phony Dems are claiming it does.


It has EVERYTHING to do with the average worker. Cops, teachers, and firemen usually make far less than the median income of $54,000 per year. In fact, it's more like $35,000. Yeah, those Fat Cats are living a life of luxury off the taxpayer dollar. :roll:

Call me when the shuttle lands.

Uh I, don't know about cops or fireman but teachers in Wisconsin make an average salary of $51,000 + $38,406 in yearly benefits for a total of $89,527 per teacher according to the CQ Press EDU State rankings.

Better check your "facts" chief!


This isn't to mention benefits like having far more vacation time than the average worker, more holidays off during the school year, etc., etc.
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Postby S2M » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:59 am

Well since unions are THE biggest contributor to Democratic campaigns....I can see why Republicans want them busted.

That being said, I have a little Postal Worker story for you...when I first joined the Letter Carrier's Union, I was surprised at how high the dues actually were. But to make me scratch my head even more, we were also asked to allot more money than our monthly dues by $5, $10, and sometimes even an extra $25 per paycheck, or $50 a month for something called COLCPE(Committee on Letter Carrier Political Education), in others words - greasing the palms of congress to get favorable rulings on Letter Carrier issues....I refused to give one cent to this debacle.


http://www.nalc.org/depart/retire/colcpe.html

http://www.nalc3825.com/COLCPE.htm
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:29 pm

Fact Finder wrote:
Seven Wishes wrote:Dave, apples and oranges.

I feel the same way about someone working on an oil rig or logging as I do someone in the public sector. As long as they're abiding environmental regulations, I'll fight for the rights of Joe Oil Drill Worker as much as I will for a teacher in Ohio.

OK, so if we can assume you're talking about the union execs, what does that have to do with the rights of the average policeman or fireman? They're FURIOUS at Walker - even more so after he revealed himself to be the Koch brothers' fluffer / whore. If that was your intent, and I misread your posting, I apologize. And again, I believe the public employees should have to shell out a geater share for their benefits. But their CB rights are sacred and should not be taken away. If those shoes were on YOUR feet I know you would feel the same.



Complete fucking insanity Daniel. The "Right" was given by Wisconsin lawmakers...it was abused...and now it's being taken away by the newly elected lawmakers with balls. (if we're lucky)



You are both wrong. Seven, CB rights are not sacred, and Fact Finder," the RIGHT" to collective barganing wasnt given by the Wisconsin legislature (legistlatures can't GIVE rights, as Jefferson explains in the Declaration of Independence , rights are inborn and natural to men)

There is no such thing as a collective right. Rights come from the fact that either as a result of our evolution or our creation (whatever you believe it doesn’t matter) individuals own their own bodies – and have right to their bodies as their own property. From that self ownership people have a right to use their bodies to : own property, speak (freedom of speech) , worship (freedom of religion) , defend their rights (guns) , copulate (with any thing that consents-men women, amazons, martians, etc and in any wierd and wonderful position too).

Individuals as owners of themselves also have the right to engage in commerce and negotiate contracts , take jobs . However because all these are derived from the fact that individuals own themselves, there is no such thing as a collective group right.

Public sector workers have a right to negotiate individual employment contracts (AS INDIVIDUALS) , they have a right to associate with who they want (join unions) but there is absolutely no such thing as a Collective right. Hence , no moral basis for collective bargaining. This misunderstanding is the whole root of the whole problem
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:47 am

Fact Finder wrote:Gin and Tonic, you've misunderstood my points a bit. I was trying to tell 7 that CB wasn't a "Right", for the reasons you explained above. I'd call CB more of a privlige or perk that has/had been granted/negotiated by the State Governments to State Employee Unions. Whatever you may want to call CB, the fact remains that it is indeed granted by legislators and can be taken away by them. However, It is not a right.

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/s ... tId=553067



fair point , sorry , I didn't see your used of quotation marks around the word "Right" - makes sense to me now , I agree.
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Postby Seven Wishes2 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:34 am

My philosophical objection to your post stems from the fact that many believe CB to be a right, and as mores and ethical standards shift over the years, a "right" can evolve.
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Postby RedWingFan » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:50 am

Seven Wishes wrote: a "right" can evolve.


"living and breathing" kind of like the Constitution?
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:56 am

Seven Wishes wrote:My philosophical objection to your post stems from the fact that many believe CB to be a right, and as mores and ethical standards shift over the years, a "right" can evolve.



but dont you think its a dangerous thing to think that rights evolve and if enough people think that something is a right it should become a right? I do for a couple of reason. First of all if the basis for a rights is that that people believe it to be one and enough people can get together and decide someting is a right, then it certainly follows that enough people can get together and decide some other thing isn't a right anymore. So for example if enough people think that we've evolved away from religion and it isnt a right and was in fact dangerous, should I then all of the sudden be jailed putting on a Chewbacca costume and praying to Anakin, Luke, and Obi One Kenobi (or whoever god) every sunday morning ?

The second reason is for every right that exist there is an obligation to others. Under the system of rights I suggest-individual rights that come from owning my own body= the only obligation on others is to not violate my rights, but they dont owe me anyting else. But when you create "a right" - such as the supposed post 9/11 right to security for example-, some one is under the obligation to provide you with safety-, and inorder to meet that obligation they have to start allowing the goverment to read their email, listen to their phone calls, have their panties yanked down at Dulles airport, (and all the other wonderful provisons of the Patriot act) all so you can have that so called "right" to safety.
When people create rights its always dangerous.
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Postby S2M » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:01 am

The Best explanation I've read about 'rights'....

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_man_rights
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:06 am

S2M wrote:The Best explanation I've read about 'rights'....

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_man_rights



yep - the only better explanation you will find is in John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged ! :D Which I highly recommend
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Postby slucero » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:07 am

Worth the Read...

MAN'S RIGHTS

by Ayn Rand

If one wishes to advocate a free society—that is, capitalism—one must realize that its indispensable foundation is the principle of individual rights. If one wishes to uphold individual rights, one must realize that capitalism is the only system that can uphold and protect them. And if one wishes to gauge the relationship of freedom to the goals of today’s intellectuals, one may gauge it by the fact that the concept of individual rights is evaded, distorted, perverted and seldom discussed, most conspicuously seldom by the so-called “conservatives.”

“Rights” are a moral concept—the concept that provides a logical transition from the principles guiding an individual’s actions to the principles guiding his relationship with others—the concept that preserves and protects individual morality in a social context—the link between the moral code of a man and the legal code of a society, between ethics and politics. Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law.

Every political system is based on some code of ethics. The dominant ethics of mankind’s history were variants of the altruist-collectivist doctrine which subordinated the individual to some higher authority, either mystical or social. Consequently, most political systems were variants of the same statist tyranny, differing only in degree, not in basic principle, limited only by the accidents of tradition, of chaos, of bloody strife and periodic collapse. Under all such systems, morality was a code applicable to the individual, but not to society. Society was placed outside the moral law, as its embodiment or source or exclusive interpreter—and the inculcation of self-sacrificial devotion to social duty was regarded as the main purpose of ethics in man’s earthly existence.

Since there is no such entity as “society,” since society is only a number of individual men, this meant, in practice, that the rulers of society were exempt from moral law; subject only to traditional rituals, they held total power and exacted blind obedience—on the implicit principle of: “The good is that which is good for society (or for the tribe, the race, the nation), and the ruler’s edicts are its voice on earth.”

This was true of all statist systems, under all variants of the altruist-collectivist ethics, mystical or social. “The Divine Right of Kings” summarizes the political theory of the first—”Vox populi, vox dei” of the second. As witness: the theocracy of Egypt, with the Pharaoh as an embodied god—the unlimited majority rule or democracy of Athens—the welfare state run by the Emperors of Rome—the Inquisition of the late Middle Ages—the absolute monarchy of France—the welfare state of Bismarck’s Prussia—the gas chambers of Nazi Germany—the slaughterhouse of the Soviet Union.

All these political systems were expressions of the altruist-collectivist ethics-and their common characteristic is the fact that society stood above the moral law, as an omnipotent, sovereign whim worshiper. Thus, politically, all these systems were variants of an amoral society.

The most profoundly revolutionary achievement of the United States of America was the subordination of society to moral law.

The principle of man’s individual rights represented the extension of morality into the social system—as a limitation on the power of the state, as man’s protection against the brute force of the collective, as the subordination of might to right. The United States was the first moral society in history.

All previous systems had regarded man as a sacrificial means to the ends of others, and society as an end in itself. The United States regarded man as an end in himself, and society as a means to the peaceful, orderly, voluntary coexistence of individuals. All previous systems had held that man’s life belongs to society, that society can dispose of him in any way it pleases, and that any freedom he enjoys is his only by favor, by the permission of society, which may be revoked at any time. The United States held that man’s life is his by right (which means: by moral principle and by his nature), that a right is the property of an individual, that society as such has no rights, and that the only moral purpose of a government is the protection of individual rights.

A “right” is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man’s right to his own life. Life is a process of self- sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action-which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life. (Such is the meaning of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.)

The concept of a “right” pertains only to action—specifically, to freedom of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other men.

Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a positive—of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values.

The concept of individual rights is so new in human history that most men have not grasped it fully to this day. In accordance with the two theories of ethics, the mystical or the social, some men assert that rights are a gift of God—others, that rights are a gift of society. But, in fact, the source of rights is man’s nature.

The Declaration of Independence stated that men “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.” Whether one believes that man is the product of a Creator or of nature, the issue of man’s origin does not alter the fact that he is an entity of a specific kind—a rational being—that he cannot function successfully under coercion, and that rights are a necessary condition of his particular mode of survival.

“The source of man’s rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the law of identity. A is A—and Man is Man. Rights are conditions of existence required by man’s nature for his proper survival. If man is to live on earth, it is right for him to use his mind, it is right to act on his own free judgment, it is right to work for his values and to keep the product of his work. If life on earth is his purpose, he has a right to live as a rational being: nature forbids him the irrational.” (Atlas Shrugged)

To violate man’s rights means to compel him to act against his own judgment, or to expropriate his values. Basically, there is only one way to do it: by the use of physical force. There are two potential violators of man’s rights: the criminals and the government. The great achievement of the United States was to draw a distinction between these two—by forbidding to the second the legalized version of the activities of the first.

The Declaration of Independence laid down the principle that “to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.” This provided the only valid justification of a government and defined its only proper purpose: to protect man’s rights by protecting him from physical violence.

Thus the government’s function was changed from the role of ruler to the role of servant. The government was set to protect man from criminals—and the Constitution was written to protect man from the government. The Bill of Rights was not directed against private citizens, but against the government—as an explicit declaration that individual rights supersede any public or social power.

The result was the pattern of a civilized society which—for the brief span of some hundred and fifty years—America came close to achieving. A civilized society is one in which physical force is banned from human relationships—in which the government, acting as a policeman, may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use.

This was the essential meaning and intent of America’s political philosophy, implicit in the principle of individual rights. But it was not formulated explicitly, nor fully accepted nor consistently practiced.

America’s inner contradiction was the altruist-collectivist ethics. Altruism is incompatible with freedom, with capitalism and with individual rights. One cannot combine the pursuit of happiness with the moral status of a sacrificial animal.

It was the concept of individual rights that had given birth to a free society. It was with the destruction of individual rights that the destruction of freedom had to begin.

A collectivist tyranny dare not enslave a country by an outright confiscation of its values, material or moral. It has to be done by a process of internal corruption. Just as in the material realm the plundering of a country’s wealth is accomplished by inflating the currency—so today one may witness the process of inflation being applied to the realm of rights. The process entails such a growth of newly promulgated “rights” that people do not notice the fact that the meaning of the concept is being reversed. Just as bad money drives out good money, so these “printing-press rights” negate authentic rights.

Consider the curious fact that never has there been such a proliferation, all over the world, of two contradictory phenomena: of alleged new “rights” and of slave-labor camps.

The “gimmick” was the switch of the concept of rights from the political to the economic realm.

The Democratic Party platform of 1960 summarizes the switch boldly and explicitly. It declares that a Democratic Administration “will reaffirm the economic bill of rights which Franklin Roosevelt wrote into our national conscience sixteen years ago.”

Bear clearly in mind the meaning of the concept of “rights” when you read the list which the platform offers:

“1. The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.

“2. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

“3. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living.

“4. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home and abroad.

“5. The right of every family to a decent home.

“6. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.

“7. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accidents and unemployment.

“8. The right to a good education.”

A single question added to each of the above eight clauses would make the issue clear: At whose expense?

Jobs, food, clothing, recreation(!), homes, medical care, education, etc., do not grow in nature. These are man-made values—goods and services produced by men. Who is to provide them?

If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

Any alleged “right” of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.

No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as “the right to enslave.”

A right does not include the material implementation of that right by other men; it includes only the freedom to earn that implementation by one’s own effort.

Observe, in this context, the intellectual precision of the Founding Fathers: they spoke of the right to the pursuit of happiness—not of the right to happiness. It means that a man has the right to take the actions he deems necessary to achieve his happiness; it does not mean that others must make him happy.

The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life.

The right to property means that a man has the right to take the economic actions necessary to earn property, to use it and to dispose of it; it does not mean that others must provide him with property.

The right of free speech means that a man has the right to express his ideas without danger of suppression, interference or punitive action by the government. It does not mean that others must provide him with a lecture hall, a radio station or a printing press through which to express his ideas.

Any undertaking that involves more than one man, requires the voluntary consent of every participant. Every one of them has the right to make his own decision, but none has the right to force his decision on the others.

There is no such thing as “a right to a job”—there is only the right of free trade, that is: a man’s right to take a job if another man chooses to hire him. There is no “right to a home,” only the right of free trade: the right to build a home or to buy it. There are no “rights to a ‘fair’ wage or a ‘fair’ price” if no one chooses to pay it, to hire a man or to buy his product. There are no “rights of consumers” to milk, shoes, movies or champagne if no producers choose to manufacture such items (there is only the right to manufacture them oneself). There are no “rights” of special groups, there are no “rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.” There are only the Rights of Man—rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals.

Property rights and the right of free trade are man’s only “economic rights” (they are, in fact, political rights)—and there can be no such thing as “an economic bill of rights.” But observe that the advocates of the latter have all but destroyed the former.

Remember that rights are moral principles which define and protect a man’s freedom of action, but impose no obligations on other men. Private citizens are not a threat to one another’s rights or freedom. A private citizen who resorts to physical force and violates the rights of others is a criminal—and men have legal protection against him.

Criminals are a small minority in any age or country. And the harm they have done to mankind is infinitesimal when compared to the horrors—the bloodshed, the wars, the persecutions, the confiscations, the famines, the enslavements, the wholesale destructions—perpetrated by mankind’s governments. Potentially, a government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims. When unlimited and unrestricted by individual rights, a government is men’s deadliest enemy. It is not as protection against private actions, but against governmental actions that the Bill of Rights was written.

Now observe the process by which that protection is being destroyed.

The process consists of ascribing to private citizens the specific violations constitutionally forbidden to the government (which private citizens have no power to commit) and thus freeing the government from all restrictions. The switch is becoming progressively more obvious in the field of free speech. For years, the collectivists have been propagating the notion that a private individual’s refusal to finance an opponent is a violation of the opponent’s right of free speech and an act of “censorship.”

It is “censorship,” they claim, if a newspaper refuses to employ or publish writers whose ideas are diametrically opposed to its policy.

It is “censorship,” they claim, if businessmen refuse to advertise in a magazine that denounces, insults and smears them.

It is “censorship,” they claim, if a TV sponsor objects to some outrage perpetrated on a program he is financing—such as the incident of Alger Hiss being invited to denounce former Vice-President Nixon.

And then there is [Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission] Newton N. Minow who declares: “There is censorship by ratings, by advertisers, by networks, by affiliates which reject programming offered to their areas.” It is the same Mr. Minow who threatens to revoke the license of any station that does not comply with his views on programming-and who claims that that is not censorship.

Consider the implications of such a trend.

“Censorship” is a term pertaining only to governmental action. No private action is censorship. No private individual or agency can silence a man or suppress a publication; only the government can do so. The freedom of speech of private individuals includes the right not to agree, not to listen and not to finance one’s own antagonists.

But according to such doctrines as the “economic bill of rights,” an individual has no right to dispose of his own material means by the guidance of his own convictions-and must hand over his money indiscriminately to any speakers or propagandists, who have a “right” to his property.

This means that the ability to provide the material tools for the expression of ideas deprives a man of the right to hold any ideas. It means that a publisher has to publish books he considers worthless, false or evil—that a TV sponsor has to finance commentators who choose to affront his convictions-that the owner of a newspaper must turn his editorial pages over to any young hooligan who clamors for the enslavement of the press. It means that one group of men acquires the “right” to unlimited license—while another group is reduced to helpless irresponsibility.

But since it is obviously impossible to provide every claimant with a job, a microphone or a newspaper column, who will determine the “distribution” of “economic rights” and select the recipients, when the owners’ right to choose has been abolished? Well, Mr. Minow has indicated that quite clearly.

And if you make the mistake of thinking that this applies only to big property owners, you had better realize that the theory of “economic rights” includes the “right” of every would-be playwright, every beatnik poet, every noise-composer and every nonobjective artist (who have political pull) to the financial support you did not give them when you did not attend their shows. What else is the meaning of the project to spend your tax money on subsidized art?

And while people are clamoring about “economic rights,” the concept of political rights is vanishing. It is forgotten that the right of free speech means the freedom to advocate one’s views and to bear the possible consequences, including disagreement with others, opposition, unpopularity and lack of support. The political function of “the right of free speech” is to protect dissenters and unpopular minorities from forcible suppression—not to guarantee them the support, advantages and rewards of a popularity they have not gained.

The Bill of Rights reads: “Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press . . .” It does not demand that private citizens provide a microphone for the man who advocates their destruction, or a passkey for the burglar who seeks to rob them, or a knife for the murderer who wants to cut their throats.

Such is the state of one of today’s most crucial issues: political rights versus “economic rights.” It’s either-or. One destroys the other. But there are, in fact, no “economic rights,” no “collective rights,” no “public-interest rights.” The term “individual rights” is a redundancy: there is no other kind of rights and no one else to possess them.

Those who advocate laissez-faire capitalism are the only advocates of man’s rights.

(April 1963)

“Man’s Rights,” from Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand. Copyright (c) 1946, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966 by Ayn Rand. used by permission of Dutton Signet, a division of Penguin Group (USA) Inc.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
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Postby S2M » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:10 am

Sigh....Ayn was the shit. Seriously. What an intellectual. :( :D
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:24 am

S2M wrote:Sigh....Ayn was the shit. Seriously. What an intellectual. :( :D




Atlas Shrugged is coming out as a movie very shortly . Taylor Shilling plays Dagny Taggart . Taylor is a little bit hotter than Ayn Rand portrays Dagny Taggart in the book, but I guess thats a postitive bit of poetic licence.
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Postby S2M » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:37 am

The unions have guaranteed benefits and pay raises, regardless of whether they are doing their job effectively or not, and on top of that the largest unions are getting taxpayer money to keep their industries alive (example: Government Motors and National Education Association).

Those of us in the private sector have to produce in order to keep our jobs AND to pay taxes so the government can prop up the unions.

The unions have spent the last 50 years driving industry from the US to China, and now they want to bankrupt the taxpayers so the union members can live above the middle class.
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:41 am

Seven Wishes wrote:My philosophical objection to your post stems from the fact that many believe CB to be a right, and as mores and ethical standards shift over the years, a "right" can evolve.


"Evolution of rights" is a pretty damn soft foundation to rest on. The Constitution is our basis of law in this country. If people think "rights" have evolved, that's the reason the process of amendments was instituted. That's also why it's not a "living" document.
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Postby slucero » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:15 am

conversationpc wrote:
Seven Wishes wrote:My philosophical objection to your post stems from the fact that many believe CB to be a right, and as mores and ethical standards shift over the years, a "right" can evolve.


"Evolution of rights" is a pretty damn soft foundation to rest on. The Constitution is our basis of law in this country. If people think "rights" have evolved, that's the reason the process of amendments was instituted. That's also why it's not a "living" document.



Its also why 2A is an Amendment..

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Postby Seven Wishes2 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:09 am

Nice try, rethugs. Wrong again.

Wisconsin being broke is primarily a product of the enormous tax breaks it has been giving to mega corporations.

The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus. That's right - a surplus.

Scotty Boy claims there's a $137 million dollar budget deficit. Well, he's full of shit and he's lying!

Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special interest spending that includes:

- $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. [Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/7/11]
- $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. [Government Accountability Office, 4/1/08; Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/11/11]
- $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at-best the benefit provided to job creators would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day. [Associated Press, 1/28/01]

The governor and legislators aligned with him have over the past month given away special-interest favors to every lobby group that came asking, creating zero jobs in the process “but increasing the deficit by more than $100 million.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:09 am

Seven Wishes wrote:Nice try, rethugs. Wrong again.

Wisconsin being broke is primarily a product of the enormous tax breaks it has been giving to mega corporations.

The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus. That's right - a surplus.

Scotty Boy claims there's a $137 million dollar budget deficit. Well, he's full of shit and he's lying!

Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special interest spending that includes:

- $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs. [Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/7/11]
- $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants. [Government Accountability Office, 4/1/08; Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, 1/11/11]
- $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at-best the benefit provided to job creators would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day. [Associated Press, 1/28/01]

The governor and legislators aligned with him have over the past month given away special-interest favors to every lobby group that came asking, creating zero jobs in the process “but increasing the deficit by more than $100 million.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf



I dont know seems that from reading that report one of the major gripe is that Minnesota is screwing Wisconsin on tax treaties. Of course I can tell you for a fact that Minnesotans screwing Wisconsin is nothing new. Hell when I was in highschool in Eastern Minnesota every friday night me and my friends would load up my car up with beer drive across the Wisconsin border, roll down the windows blasting out Cinderalla, Night Ranger and Motley Crue. Them Wisconsin girls would see my Minnesota plates, and hear that hair metal, and think wow here comes some real men. Then, until the dawns early light Minnesota would be screwing Wisconsin big time. Funny thing, back then those particular citizens of Wisconsin would be lovin it. I wonder why the fuck they got a chip on their shoulder all the sudden. :?:
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Postby slucero » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:44 am

Image

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
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Postby Seven Wishes2 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:45 am

[color=red]Whatever, fuck nuts.

My information came from a .gov website and IRREFUTABLE sources.

Yours is a highly biased editorial source.

YOU are DEAD WRONG HERE. My source trumps yours.[/
color]
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Postby slucero » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:57 am

Seven Wishes wrote:Whatever, fuck nuts.

My information came from a .gov website and IRREFUTABLE sources.

Yours is a highly biased editorial source.

YOU are DEAD WRONG HERE. My source trumps yours.


Yer right... yer report does trump... except..

You musta not read this part of the report you cite.... it's on page 3


There are two items, not included in Table 1, which would reduce the general fund balance if payment is made in the 2010-11 fiscal year. Those items are discussed below.

Minnesota/Wisconsin Income Tax Reciprocity Payment.
On September 18, 2009, Minnesota's Governor informed Wisconsin's Governor that Minnesota was terminating the two states' income tax reciprocity agreement as of tax year 2010 (beginning January 1, 2010). Therefore, the agreement last applied to tax year 2009. Because more individuals live in
Wisconsin and earn income in Minnesota than live in Minnesota and earn income in Wisconsin, Wisconsin's estimated net payment to Minnesota due on December 1, 2010, for tax year 2009, was $58.7 million. In addition, under the agreement, interest is applied to late payments. The
daily interest cost owed to Minnesota is $4,584. To date, these payments have not been made.

Patients Compensation Fund.
On July 20, 2010, the State Supreme Court ruled that the state cannot transfer monies out of the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund (Fund).
In the 2007-09 state budget, $200 million was transferred from the Fund to advantage the general fund. The Court remanded the case to the circuit court with directions that the $200 million, with lost earnings and interest, be placed in the Fund. To date, the circuit court has not established an amount or date of payment.






$121 Million - $258 Million = (-$137 Million)

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Postby hoagiepete » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:32 am

The Kansas House of Representatives just passed a bill that would prohibit payroll deductions (check-offs) for union PAC contributions.
The argument for the bill is that unions could pressure or intimidate workers to sign the check off.

So what happens? Day of the vote on the floor, the unions (mainly business agents) line the hall into the chambers, forming a gauntlet a few feet wide for legislators to pass through. It was a blatant attemp at what? Intimidation. When the point against them is "that is what they do" and they are trying to say..."no we don't," yet they do this. WTF? :shock:

Then to top it off, during the vote they all start yelling from the gallery in the chambers. Class acts and so affective. :roll: :roll:

This is obviously not the correct tact, but they don't get it. Will they ever? They take offense at being called bullies, but continue to act like one, ignoring their long history of being just that. If you disagree with them, they yell at you, call you names, threaten you, slash your tires, picket your business with propaganda...on and on.

It cracks me up that the unions today still take credit for the weekend and OT. The unions of today have accomplished little, but bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator, overbargainning, thus running work out of the country and most importantly, making their top officials wealthy...all under the guise of looking out after the "working man."
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Postby S2M » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:23 am

The only thing unions have done in the recent past is making it damn near impossible to fire a fucking lazy employee....save lousy, lazy-ass workers from losing their jobs....remember, no one really needs a union until they do something wrong.
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Postby Saint John » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:37 am

S2M wrote:The only thing unions have done in the recent past is making it damn near impossible to fire a fucking lazy employee....save lousy, lazy-ass workers from losing their jobs....remember, no one really needs a union until they do something wrong.


Bingo.
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Postby Seven Wishes2 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:02 am

Right, FartFinder. A blog trumps a .gov website ONLY when it comes from the right, but I'M the one with disconnect.

If I tried to do the same - and from time to time, admittedly, I have - you would collectively shout me down. Well, the shoe fits, so wear it. FACTS do not trump OPINIONS. Ever.
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