Multiple Vocals and Negative Reviews

[The_Noble_Cause]

And as for hiring someone who could do the material: Sure, they needed a competent singer to do the archived material. But did they "need" a soundalike? No! A soundalike is exactly what they didn't need, IMO. A soundalike simply reminds people of Perry, and makes them wish Perry were still there.

If they wanted a sound alike (and a look-alike, for that matter) they could've gone after Hugo. The Storm's Kevin Chalfant also sounds waay more like Perry than Augeri could ever aspire to. Out of all the possible replacement candidates looked at, you could almost argue that Augeri sounds the least like Perry.

However, he certainly does have his similarities.

A singer who came ready-equipped with his own style would have pushed the band forward and given them a new distinctive flavor.

I own Augeri's early stuff (Tyketto, Tall Stories).
Even then, the cat clearly had his own style.
Still does, actually.

Anyway. A Perry soundalike is NOT what Journey needed, or needs.

Well at one point they did consider Michael Bolton.

[The_Noble_Cause]

A Perry soundalike is NOT what Journey needed, or needs.

Then what do they need? Neal, Jon and Ross don't sound anything like Perry, but the fact that they are now singing doesn't seem to sit well with you, either.
So what kinds of voice exactly are you looking for?

[jrnyman28]

Yea right, the band was "so destroyed" that they made it to the Hollywood Walk OF Fame!


Lori

A) The band had to rebuild itself.
B) If the band had not continued, the fans would not have petitioned for the WOF Star. But it was the fans who got it accomplished. And other than the fee, they could have done it whether or not Journey was together. But they would not have cared to...

[jrnyman28]

None of the above three posts are even to be given consideration, imo,as Journey and Santana's histories will declare them null and void.

Every post, including yours, should be given consideration.

[jrnyman28]

Perry's hyper-controlling ways may have led to the dissolution of the band,

True.

Augeri was hired for his vocal kinship to Perry and YET has half the vocal aptitude that Perry possessed.

True. Although I would not say half.
It has been posted MANY times that Perry was incredible. And Augeri, while talented and similar, is not at the same level Perry was. However, many of us believe that Steve is closer now to Perry then, then Perry is now. Either way, that does not matter.

Perry was an ass, and his dictatorship led the band down the path of mediocrity with ROR, and eventually to the band's demise.

True. But sadly, you cannot lay all the blame on Perry because the other guys allowed it to happen.

Augeri was hired to help ressurect Journey, yet his vocal stylings, while similar to Perry's, are not as strong, and have not enabled the band to soar to the same cosmic heights as previously...and in fact may be the main reason why the band lingers in commercial limbo.

The first part is true, but Steve is not the reason why Journey cannot "soar". Journey does lack focus. And the commercial world of music is so different now that it would take a lot of support and a specific plan of attack to achieve a specific goal, in order for a band like Journey to succeed commercially.

HOWEVER, we do not know what Journey wants to accomplish. And we do not know what they would be willing (or capable) to do to acheive that. But we DO know that Journey are commercially successful enough to continue doing what they love. Maybe that is all the success they desire?

Both factions need to face the music.

I have...who's next!

[jrnyman28]

A singer who came ready-equipped with his own style would have pushed the band forward and given them a new distinctive flavor.

I forgot, have you heard the 'new' Journey?
Steve sounds similar, but he definately has his own voice. And I am enjoying hearing it finally. It seems to have taken a while for him to find it...and record it. But I would say that 2002 was the turning point for Steve. That is when, on stage, he fully became himself. And in turn, he fully became the frontman and voice of Journey.

[jrnyman28]

A Perry soundalike is NOT what Journey needed, or needs.

Then what do they need? Neal, Jon and Ross don't sound anything like Perry, but the fact that they are now singing doesn't seem to sit well with you, either.
So what kinds of voice exactly are you looking for?

Good Point. Journey is finally using voices capabale of singing material, but do not sound like what we are used to. And that seems to be a major issue for many.

When the band returned, with Steve, there were MANY people saying the same things Soledad is saying. The outcry from many was that Journey should have hired someone with a different sound. The general answer (and the bands decision) was that Journey needed someone who could stay true to the original recordings. NOW, the band is spreading it's wings more and including vocals that are not similar to what we are used to (as suggested so long ago) and everyone is criticizing them for it.

Like Journey has learned over these past 8 years: they cannot please everyone so they better please themselves. I give you "Generations" which, I am happy to say, pleases me.

[NealIsGod]

When the band returned, with Steve, there were MANY people saying the same things Soledad is saying. The outcry from many was that Journey should have hired someone with a different sound. The general answer (and the bands decision) was that Journey needed someone who could stay true to the original recordings. NOW, the band is spreading it's wings more and including vocals that are not similar to what we are used to (as suggested so long ago) and everyone is criticizing them for it.

Like Journey has learned over these past 8 years: they cannot please everyone so they better please themselves. I give you "Generations" which, I am happy to say, pleases me.

True. First of all, Augeri is not a sound-alike. He is a singer with a high range. If Journey had hired a singer with a lower range or with a different style who could not "sell" the hits in concert, where would that leave Journey? Most of their fans would complain that they are not the Journey they know and love. So Journey gets a singer with a great voice, who is a great fit, and other people (who would complain no matter what the band did, unless Perry came back) now complain that Journey is trying to replace Perry with a clone. So, IMO, Journey did the right thing. And Generations is GREAT proof of this.

[Red13JoePa]

Check Neal's archived interviews. He's has perfectly sound, reasoned out and simple explanations for why Augeri's the front man now.
And like NC said earlier out of all the singers around who have Perr qualities, Augie's one of the LEAST perryesque.

[NealIsGod]

Hagar was not a soundalike of Roth; Brian Johson was not a soundalike of Bon Scott. They were both capable of singing (if you could call Johnson a singer - more like a screamer) past material competently, and also making their own stamp on their respective bands' sound. In Hagar's case, the band began to suck, but it least it began to suck distinctively. In Johnson's case, the band got even better (for a while anyway).

Anyway. A Perry soundalike is NOT what Journey needed, or needs.

You are forgetting a BIG difference between VH, AC/DC and Journey.


AC/DC changed singers in 1980. They were still young and rock ruled the radio.

VH's singer switch happened in 1984. They were still young and rock ruled the radio.

Perry and Journey split in 1986. They did not replace him. They reunited shortly in 1996. Perry could not tour, and the other members of Journey were sick of waiting for Perry. Augeri was hired in 1998. What kind of music ruled the radio? Sure as hell not the rock and roll that Journey, Van Halen or AC/DC plays.

[ohsherrie]

There's no denying that Steve was a controlling perfectionist. He doesn't even deny it. But, like HOTS said, how can we know that we'd have had the quality of music and performances from them if he hadn't been? I don't think he should have been abusive, if he really was, but I can't help but credit his guidance with a large portion of the success of the group. I mean, think about it, how can you say he was in control of the band and not say he was the driving force in their success? I'm not saying that the talents of the other members weren't significant. I know it was the chemistry between them that ultimately made it work. Then again, how could that chemistry have been so great if he was soooooooooo terrible to work with?
And, like Jeremy said, how do we know they wouldn't have gotten off course without his controlling nature. I know most of you dislike ROR because of the way Steve handled it, but there were many more Journey fans that loved the album. I certainly don't see the end product as a mistake even though I do wish he hadn't done what he did to Smitty and Ross.
Do we know for a certainty that some of the more critical comments that Jon and Neal have made aren't tinged with a little bitterness? It would be perfectly natural for them to harbor some resentment towards Steve and for that feeling to come through in some of their interviews. Did we really want to hear anyone else sing on their albums? You may think so now, expecially in your defense of the new album, but back in the day would you have thought of a track sung by one of the other guys as anything more than a curiosity or indulgent bit of whimsy?

[JourneyTroll]

There's no denying that Steve was a controlling perfectionist. He doesn't even deny it. But, like HOTS said, how can we know that we'd have had the quality of music and performances from them if he hadn't been? I don't think he should have been abusive, if he really was, but I can't help but credit his guidance with a large portion of the success of the group. I mean, think about it, how can you say he was in control of the band and not say he was the driving force in their success? I'm not saying that the talents of the other members weren't significant. I know it was the chemistry between them that ultimately made it work. Then again, how could that chemistry have been so great if he was soooooooooo terrible to work with?
And, like Jeremy said, how do we know they wouldn't have gotten off course without his controlling nature. I know most of you dislike ROR because of the way Steve handled it, but there were many more Journey fans that loved the album. I certainly don't see the end product as a mistake even though I do wish he hadn't done what he did to Smitty and Ross.
Do we know for a certainty that some of the more critical comments that Jon and Neal have made aren't tinged with a little bitterness? It would be perfectly natural for them to harbor some resentment towards Steve and for that feeling to come through in some of their interviews. Did we really want to hear anyone else sing on their albums? You may think so now, expecially in your defense of the new album, but back in the day would you have thought of a track sung by one of the other guys as anything more than a curiosity or indulgent bit of whimsy?

I agree. Journey was so much better with Steve Perry in the band compared to pre-Perry and post-Perry. Most of the songs that the majority of the fans want to hear in concert are the songs with Steve Perry.

Journeytroll

[Monker]

But, like HOTS said, how can we know that we'd have had the quality of music and performances from them if he hadn't been?

Because he did not have 'control' of Journey until ROR. To give any type of 'credit' to Perry's controling perfectionism to the sucess of : Infiity, Evolution, Departure, Escape, or Frontiers is misrepresenting Perry's contributions to Journey.

I mean, think about it, how can you say he was in control of the band and not say he was the driving force in their success?

Because he was NOT in 'control' prior to 1985...when MOST of the 'success' happened. AFTER 1985, ALL of Journey's decline happened...when Perry WAN undeniably in control of Journey.

I know most of you dislike ROR because of the way Steve handled it, but there were many more Journey fans that loved the album.

If a person starts quoting numbers, the way Perry fans do: 8,000,000 LOVED Escape. 6,000,000 LOVED Frontiers. 2,000,000 loved ROR...1/4 the number of Escape, 1/3 the number of Frontiers. Seems to me the slope had become slippery...and out of the 2,000,000, I bet MANY didn't 'love' ror.

You may think so now, expecially in your defense of the new album, but back in the day would you have thought of a track sung by one of the other guys as anything more than a curiosity or indulgent bit of whimsy?

I didn't realize that "Just the Same Way", "Feeling That Way", "Anytime" and all of the pre-Perry albums were nothing but a 'bit of whimsy'. They should have done MORE of that, not less...And, yes, Jonathan could have filled the role.

[ohsherrie]

Because he did not have 'control' of Journey until ROR. To give any type of 'credit' to Perry's controling perfectionism to the sucess of : Infiity, Evolution, Departure, Escape, or Frontiers is misrepresenting Perry's contributions to Journey.

So, when Jon says Steve wouldn't allow him to sing he was only talking about ROR? Seems to me that I've heard something about Steve supposedly being difficult during the recording of Frontiers. Then of course there was the powerplay between he and Neal over Open Arms. I even think Gregg complained some about Steve wanting to take over before he left.

If a person starts quoting numbers, the way Perry fans do: 8,000,000 LOVED Escape. 6,000,000 LOVED Frontiers. 2,000,000 loved ROR...1/4 the number of Escape, 1/3 the number of Frontiers. Seems to me the slope had become slippery...and out of the 2,000,000, I bet MANY didn't 'love' ror.

I wasn't quoting numbers. I only said that more Journey fans liked ROR than didn't like it. It looks to me as if the numbers declined after Frontiers because of their venture into a harder sound on the B side.

I didn't realize that "Just the Same Way", "Feeling That Way", "Anytime" and all of the pre-Perry albums were nothing but a 'bit of whimsy'. They should have done MORE of that, not less...And, yes, Jonathan could have filled the role.

I personally never cared that much for Gregg's singing. Those songs are OK but, to me, not great. Their most successful songs were sung by Steve. IMO the pre-Perry albums were nothing to brag about. I think Jon is an adequate singer, but why would you use an adequate singer on an album when you've got a great one except for indulgent whimsy? Unless you just want to be a fusion band with a relatively small hardcore following.

[jrnyman28]

So, when Jon says Steve wouldn't allow him to sing he was only talking about ROR? Seems to me that I've heard something about Steve supposedly being difficult during the recording of Frontiers. Then of course there was the powerplay between he and Neal over Open Arms. I even think Gregg complained some about Steve wanting to take over before he left.

It is true that Perry grew more and more difficult throughout his tenure with Journey. He did not have 'complete' control until ROR but he certainly was able to influence things 'his way'. My understanding is that Perry was responsible for Aynsley's dismissal, Gregg's 'retirement' from Journey, Smitty and Ross' dismissal. And I am sure Perry's influence was part of the reason Jon's song was not on Frontiers. That may not have been specifically Perry's "decision", but the success of his vocals obviously influenced the decision that ONLY his voice would be on a Journey CD.

I wasn't quoting numbers. I only said that more Journey fans liked ROR than didn't like it. It looks to me as if the numbers declined after Frontiers because of their venture into a harder sound on the B side.

Then why wouldn't they have rebounded with ROR?
The fact is that a band only gets about 3 years on "top". By 1981 Journey was riding high, by 1984 they were declining. And it is probably likely that "more" people liked ROR then didn't, but 1/4 of the people bought it than Escape and a LARGE group don't particularly care for it. I have not heard many (if any) people say they bought Escape and don't care for it.

[ohsherrie]

I think you're right Dave about Journey naturally declining from their peak after Escape. What could they have done, at the time, to match that? All I'm saying is that Steve had more to do with Journey's success than it's decline. Do you really think that after Escape many fans really wanted to hear someone else sing? It might have been more fun for the other members of the band, but from a business standpoint it wouldn't have made much sense. It would have been creative indulgence. (or whimsy)

[yak]

I don't think he should have been abusive, if he really was, but I can't help but credit his guidance with a large portion of the success of the group.

Let me get this straight...You are saying that it's perfectly OK to be abusive if your last name is Perry? Or are you still in denial that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the Portuguese god could do no wrong?

I mean, think about it, how can you say he was in control of the band and not say he was the driving force in their success?

Just because somebody, by somebody else's perception, is the driving force behind a band's success, does not mean that person has the right to take control of an entity. Just for the record, a minority of people believing Perry is entitled to the rainbow doesn't make it fact. He did not get there alone, otherwise his solo projects would have catapulted him to stardom when he set out on his own. Unfortunately for Perry fans, he couldn't even follow through on that.

I know it was the chemistry between them that ultimately made it work. Then again, how could that chemistry have been so great if he was soooooooooo terrible to work with?

IF the chemistry was so great he would still be singing with Journey. IF the chemistry was so great, Perry wouldn't have left Journey high and dry numerous times. Get a grip on reality, because the chemistry was NOT good; hence the consistent dissension and final breakup.

Do we know for a certainty that some of the more critical comments that Jon and Neal have made aren't tinged with a little bitterness?

Neal and Jon were supposed to wait for all eternity? Perry appears to be the bitter pill, since he has taken it personally that The Journey Continues without him.


You continually post long answers in these threads, but no matter how the words change, the posts come out the same. How many times and how many different ways do you think you have to put forth your argument before somebody realizes you are saying the same thing? Do you roll out of bed every morning with a new plan for your old mantra?

[jrnyman28]

All I'm saying is that Steve had more to do with Journey's success than it's decline.

Well, I would give equals to that. I think Perry had as much to do with Journey's success as their decline/demise.

Do you really think that after Escape many fans really wanted to hear someone else sing?

No. I agree with the choice from a commercial standpoint.

It might have been more fun for the other members of the band, but from a business standpoint it wouldn't have made much sense. It would have been creative indulgence. (or whimsy)

Creative indulgence would have been good. The 2nd side of Frontiers was almost ALL creative indulgence. Had it included ATL and OTY then it would have been commercial instead. But that 2nd side would have been an ok place for Jon's song.

One thing I like now is the room for "creative indulgence".

[NealIsGod]

I think you're right Dave about Journey naturally declining from their peak after Escape. What could they have done, at the time, to match that? All I'm saying is that Steve had more to do with Journey's success than it's decline. Do you really think that after Escape many fans really wanted to hear someone else sing? It might have been more fun for the other members of the band, but from a business standpoint it wouldn't have made much sense. It would have been creative indulgence. (or whimsy)

I think Perry was a HUGE part of the success of Journey. And I don't think he is the entire reason for their collapse after ROR, just a big part (from what I have read and heard from the band). But the thing is, he is no longer in the band. And the music is still great. Some people can get past Perry's departure, some can't. But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

[yak]

But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

Who said that?

[NealIsGod]

But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

Who said that?

Nobody that I know of, ask ohsherrie. She seems to think someone did.

[Greg]

I think Perry was a HUGE part of the success of Journey. And I don't think he is the entire reason for their collapse after ROR, just a big part (from what I have read and heard from the band). But the thing is, he is no longer in the band. And the music is still great. Some people can get past Perry's departure, some can't. But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

Agreed! Now, if Perry had already possessed a successful solo career prior to joining Journey, then the case that Perry was single handedly the reason why Journey was successful would be hard to dispute. This is assuming that Journey wouldn't have made any commerical success prior to Perry. However, it's hard to dispute the fact that Journey without Schon wouldn't be Journey in my opinion.

[NealIsGod]

I think Perry was a HUGE part of the success of Journey. And I don't think he is the entire reason for their collapse after ROR, just a big part (from what I have read and heard from the band). But the thing is, he is no longer in the band. And the music is still great. Some people can get past Perry's departure, some can't. But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

Agreed! Now, if Perry had already possessed a successful solo career prior to joining Journey, then the case that Perry was single handedly the reason why Journey was successful would be hard to dispute. This is assuming that Journey wouldn't have made any commerical success prior to Perry. However, it's hard to dispute the fact that Journey without Schon wouldn't be Journey in my opinion.

Neal is the heart and soul of the group, IMO. The only one there from the beginning and the one who will turn off the Lights on his way out...

[The_Noble_Cause]

IF the chemistry was so great he would still be singing with Journey. IF the chemistry was so great, Perry wouldn't have left Journey high and dry numerous times. Get a grip on reality, because the chemistry was NOT good; hence the consistent dissension and final breakup.

Great post all around Yak, except I gotta disagree with you here. Jon has acknowledged that him and Perry really shared a rare special relationship. Perry's personal problems aside, him and Jon def. shared chemistry.

As Jon said himself,

"The songs with Steve Perry were from a "zone " that we would create we 'd lose it and then find it almost every album ...but to wait so long in between the creative process was.... frustrating at best .We could have easily written at least three albums in the ten years we waited around...Still the music stands the test of time and I'm proud of the "zone time" we shared and the success we had as a team."

[ohsherrie]

But anyone who says Perry is not a HUGE reason they hit it big is full of shit!

Who said that?

Nobody that I know of, ask ohsherrie. She seems to think someone did.

No NIG, that's not exactly what I was talking about. That's just what sort of got extracted then distorted out of what I said.

Someone said Jon said Steve wouldn't let him sing.

Someone then commented on Steve being so controlling over the band.

Then it was said that Steve's control was what led to the demise of Journey.

I said I thought that control may have contributed more to Journey's success than it's demise.

Someone also thinks I said Steve wasn't controlling or abusive. I didn't say that either. I acknowledged that he was controlling and may or may not have been abusive. I just don't think all of the personality flaws that caused the conflicts between them were on his part.

[heardonthestreet]

I know! Maybe it was Neal. Dosen't he have a track record.

Bad English
Hardline

I wonder how long SS will last.

Could Journeys troubles have been a lot of Neals fault? Would he admit to anything? It's worth discussing.

[Monker]

All I'm saying is that Steve had more to do with Journey's success than it's decline.

Well, I would give equals to that. I think Perry had as much to do with Journey's success as their decline/demise.

Steve Perry was not producing albums during Journey's road to success.

Steve Perry was not firing members during Journey's road to success.

Steve Perry was not doing Herbie's job during Journey road to success, deciding album covers and album titles and firing members.

Steve Perry was a singer/songwriter during his ENTIRE time with Journey...but he took on a LOT of extra baggage during their decline. The music became HIS responsibility when he took on the role of producer (and IMO, it sucked for ROR). The band itself because HIS responsibility when he started taking on things traditionaly left to Herbie.

He had a LOT more to do with Journey "decline" then their success. I think history CLEARLY shows that.

And, people are throwing words around. If "huige part" of Journey's success means that Perry's part was larger then Herbie's or Neal's, or even Gregg's or Jonathan's, and not as an equal, then yeah, I'm full of shit...cuz there is NO WAY anybody will convince me that Perry's part in Journey's success was any bigger then theirs.

[Monker]

So, when Jon says Steve wouldn't allow him to sing he was only talking about ROR? Seems to me that I've heard something about Steve supposedly being difficult during the recording of Frontiers. Then of course there was the powerplay between he and Neal over Open Arms. I even think Gregg complained some about Steve wanting to take over before he left.

So what. That is a band debating band issues. That isn't one person controling anything. That did not happen until ROR.

I wasn't quoting numbers. I only said that more Journey fans liked ROR than didn't like it. It looks to me as if the numbers declined after Frontiers because of their venture into a harder sound on the B side.

Oh, please. I doubt anybody was bitching between 8million and 6million records. The true decline started with the pop crap on ROR. That is a hard pill for fans like you to swallow, but it's the truth.

And, to make a statement that more Journey fans liked ROR then didn't like it is baseless. There is absolutely NOTHING you can point to to support that as a fact...and I frankly doubt that it is true.

I personally never cared that much for Gregg's singing. Those songs are OK but, to me, not great. Their most successful songs were sung by Steve.

And, the songs I mentioned helped build a foundation for everything that followed. Without that foundation, I doubt Journey would have had the langevity that they have had - no matter who the singer was. To diminish the songs Gregg sang on Infinity and Evolution is to also diminish the importance of the albums themselves. Those old albums, pre-Escape, were not just a collection of hits but should also be considered as a whole.

IMO the pre-Perry albums were nothing to brag about.

Yet, without them, Journey would not exist....and neither would Steve Perry...at least not as you know him today.

I think Jon is an adequate singer, but why would you use an adequate singer on an album when you've got a great one except for indulgent whimsy?

Because Jonathan has a voice that is different enough from Steve, or Deen's, to use as a contrasting statement in a duet. He also has more vocal talent then Neal and probably Ross.

Unless you just want to be a fusion band with a relatively small hardcore following.

Infinity was not a fusion album. Neither was Evolution. Are you going to critique that version of Journey for using Gregg's voice?

[NoMoreTails]

Could Journeys troubles have been a lot of Neals fault? Would he admit to anything? It's worth discussing.

Neal's role in Journey's troubles, along with Jonathan, was in giving Perry as much control as they did.

[NoMoreTails]

I know! Maybe it was Neal. Dosen't he have a track record.

Bad English

Bad English was brought down by yet another singer with his own agenda and an overblown ego.
Interestingly, it seems to be Jonathan and John Waite that still have hard feelings, whereas Neal & Waite seem to have gotten past their problems.