After The Fall

[heardonthestreet]

Great bass guitar influence. Shades of ROR.

[NoMoreTails]

Great bass guitar influence. Shades of ROR.

Perry had Ross sit this one out in favor or Randy Jackson if I'm not mistaken. Ross should have seen it coming. Of course, the other guys agreed...

[heardonthestreet]

Yes! Randy's co-efforts with the drums gave the song what it needed, imo.

[NealIsGod]

Yes! Randy's co-efforts with the drums gave the song what it needed, imo.

Were you happy when Ross and Smitty were fired, HOTS?

[heardonthestreet]

Of coarse not!
There was so much going around at that time. I figured that the guys had split and heard that later, the three had got together to do something and had already started some studio work. Damn, but I do remember one of them saying that it wasn't even supposed to be Journey, which is why it was so influenced by Perry. Smitty admitted that he didn't know the technique at the time but admitted that it was necessary to know to work with studio musicians iin the future.
I love ROR, the songs, the new,classy, upbeat sound and to me it was a sign of the times.
Ross in his recent interview says that he and Smitty were into something and the three were doing ROR.
I have never considered it to be that anyone was fired! I just don't happen to feel that anyone had even been hired at that point.
The band had split awhile before.
We all live in our own unique Journey world on how we view the story of Journey and it's fascinating, to say the least.
I like my version. It makes sense to me.
No one know's the whole story and I don't wish to listen to a version that will put as much hate in my heart as I seen from some who post here.

Please just take this as my personal view to live with and to each his own.
It's just my view and I won't argue it with anyone's lack of knowledge of what anyone has perceived to have transpired.

[Red13JoePa]

I love the song.


HOTS: history admits Perry fired Smitty and Ross. Behind the Music ALL interviewed including Perry acknowledge this. He said something like "I let music drive me to demand my own way, and boy i had to have it. I wouldn't do it again, though it seemed like a good idea at the time."


How do you figure your slant that they weren't fired?

[The_Noble_Cause]

No one know's the whole story.

That's not true.
This guy does: http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/

[The_Noble_Cause]

I love the song.


HOTS: history admits Perry fired Smitty and Ross. Behind the Music ALL interviewed including Perry acknowledge this. He said something like "I let music drive me to demand my own way, and boy i had to have it. I wouldn't do it again, though it seemed like a good idea at the time."


How do you figure your slant that they weren't fired?

I once heard on Usenet that Ross was let go during ROR for other reasons. The poster hinted at drug issues. Any truth to this?

[heardonthestreet]

Sorry, I figured that they were never hired.

What I got from Perry's words was that he should never have tried to do something with just Neal and Jon because of the hard feelings it caused but I non-the-less feel that he is proud of ROR and can't imagine it not existing.

[heardonthestreet]

BTM was a great vehicle for publicity and damn but didn't it serve it's purpose. It was created for high drama and really pretty funny at times. I'll bet the guys laughed their butts off at times.

[NealIsGod]

BTM was a great vehicle for publicity and damn but didn't it serve it's purpose. It was created for high drama and really pretty funny at times. I'll bet the guys laughed their butts off at times.

Yeah, one of the greatest bands of all time being torn apart and held hostage for a decade is a barrel of laughs.

[The_Noble_Cause]

BTM was a great vehicle for publicity and damn but didn't it serve it's purpose.

Depends on whose purpose you are referring to.
If you mean Steve Perry, than I'd say you are correct as it absolves him of largely all accountability.
They make it seem like HE wanted to reunite with Journey and made that happen. When in actuality, as Perry's own drummer in FTLOSM has attested, Perry reunited just so FTLOSM would get one last push from Sony. It also makes it seem like Perry was hastily kicked out when in truth (as Neal put it once) "you know, that was one thing in the show that caused a lot of controversy, in one section it said we waited months for him. And I called up the producer and I said months? Are you kidding? We waited years. We waited ten years and then we got back together and then it was close to two years. "

[jrnyman28]

BTM was a great vehicle for publicity and damn but didn't it serve it's purpose. It was created for high drama and really pretty funny at times. I'll bet the guys laughed their butts off at times.

You are correct that it was edited for dramatic effect. It is hard to take every word as truth.

One example, Perry saying he never really felt like part of the band...it could have been more specifically talking about his addition to the band, not after his history with the band. You just can't tell from the editing...

[Red13JoePa]

Er, Ross Valory was hired at the goddam ADVENT of the band.
Steve Smith was hired with Evolution, HOTS. Both were part of the band from Evolution through Frontiers. What do you base your opinion that they sinply weren't hired just prior to the ROR sessions on? They weren't session players for chrissakes they were bandmembers.

[jrnyman28]

HOTS was implying that (to her) Perry, Neal and Jon were working together but nOT as Journey. She thought Ross and Smitty were doing something else. So Ross and Smitty were not invited to be a part of ROR.

But we know that is not true. It has been covered in many places, most notably BTM, that Smitty was fired because he could not give Perry the sound he wanted. And Ross was let got for less specific reasons. (I too had heard the drug rumor, but I don't believe it).

[mnmsjrny]

But we know that is not true. It has been covered in many places, most notably BTM, that Smitty was fired because he could not give Perry the sound he wanted. And Ross was let got for less specific reasons. (I too had heard the drug rumor, but I don't believe it).

And let's not forget that Smitty actually PLAYED on ROR... can't remember which tunes off the top of my head, but he does have performance credits on 2 or 3 of the ROR songs

[jrnyman28]

But we know that is not true. It has been covered in many places, most notably BTM, that Smitty was fired because he could not give Perry the sound he wanted. And Ross was let got for less specific reasons. (I too had heard the drug rumor, but I don't believe it).

And let's not forget that Smitty actually PLAYED on ROR... can't remember which tunes off the top of my head, but he does have performance credits on 2 or 3 of the ROR songs

That's right! And they sound better than any other drum work on the album.

[Liz22562]

Jrnyman28,

I agree with you 100% regarding the editing job done on BTM. No telling what was said before or after Steve Perry's comment (or anyone else for that matter) that was edited to suit the show's 'wow' effect.

Would anyone know if there is an unedited version floating around somewhere? I've read before on one of these forums that there was some type of different version out there.

Journey On...

[Red13JoePa]

Yea a "director's cut" ran like once. It is in circulation, though I've never bumped up against anyone who's got it. I've never heard the alternate spin that ROR was not supposed to be a JRNY effort in my life.
So it was Neal, Jonathan and Perry, but they WEREN'T gonna call it JRNY? I guess at the time it could've happened. Duran Duran at the same time schismed off into Arcadia and the much heavier outfit The Powerstation. This is the first time I've heard this about ROR though....

[heardonthestreet]

Ross suggests it in Andrew's interview with him.

What's so hard to believe? Neal and Jon went off and did Bad English.
In my opinion, with Neal and Perry aboard, how could it be anything but Journey, after all.

[jrnyman28]

Ross suggests it in Andrew's interview with him.

Which interview?

What's so hard to believe?

It just seems that, if you have the three key ingredients to Journey's success ALL included in a project, how could it NOT be Journey?

[cudaclan]

I spoke to Smitty shortly after Behind the Music aired. I asked him how long his interview was (2.5-3.0 hrs). It must have been 3-mnts. of conversations shown. He was more pleased that the 'directors cut' version was shown. It represented that he continued on with Vital. He had a musical career before, during & after Journey. I asked if the program was accurate. There were discrepancies and difference in interpretation. I think the editing involved promoted controversy. I personally think Smitty felt insulted on using something not 'organic' as a means of (tool) percussion instruments. Also you were under the restraint (timing) of a machine and not creativity. I wonder what Smitty would have done if he was requested to play an electronic drum set?

[heardonthestreet]

http://www.cavemanproductions.com/REVS/ssmithiv.html

[OpeningAct]

BTM was a great vehicle for publicity and damn but didn't it serve it's purpose. It was created for high drama and really pretty funny at times. I'll bet the guys laughed their butts off at times.

You are correct that it was edited for dramatic effect. It is hard to take every word as truth.

One example, Perry saying he never really felt like part of the band...it could have been more specifically talking about his addition to the band, not after his history with the band. You just can't tell from the editing...

Good point 28!!! The BTM feature could have had a completely different feel with a different edit...would LOVE to see what was cut!!!!

[brandonx76]

...As much as I love the voice, the talent, the song writing, and the numerous Journey and Perry classics - I really wonder how an ego like his (Perry) could've gotten to out-of-control so much to have literrally steam rolled the band out of its existence from its most popular periods and arrangments. Let me speak real briefly about the drumming for Journey.... It's funny, for me there has always been a comparison between my two all-time favorite drummers - Jeff Porcaro or Steve Smith... For a long time I was convinced this comparison was like comparing apples to oranges - Jeff as many know, was the slicker than grease studio pro and Toto drummer, Steve, the jazz familiar rock drummer for Journey. When Larrie London came on board, I really thought Perry wanted the "studio" sound from records of the age (i.e. to sound similar to Porcaro). But how god-damn wrong or mis-informed could he have been? Journey's rhythm section was, and, in many regards is, unmatched. It's just a shame... I do remember reading how Smitty was "devasted" at the "firing" of his services...maybe he didn't use those words, but I can understand how the guy would've been perplexed by what went down.... I'll use Captured as a shining example of defining Arena Rock drumming...it's that good. Of course, most fans (and non fans, but those that think they know why Journey saw success) see Perry as the reason for their fame - but to me, clearly, there was a cohesive synergistic mix of talents, that quite honestly, I have yet to see the likes of from any modern rock music. bands, domestic (US) and abroad.

I could go on - but I recognize that no one truly knows what "went down" except for those who participated in the events. I'm thankful we got Trial By Fire, that's for sure, and I'm eternally optimisitic for another album by this line up, tour or no-tour,.....someday maybe they'll work their shit out and the Journey will continue - in this life or the next.

my .02

-Brandon

[Andrew]

Ross suggests it in Andrew's interview with him.

Have you got ESP or is there another Andrew out there that has interviewed Ross?

And before anyone asks....I only talked present history with Ross....didn't have the time on this one to get into the nitty gritty.

[heardonthestreet]

Sorry Andrew, I meant the interview in the topic here entitled, "Ross, about Perry and Steve." If you forgive me, I'll give you an interview.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Sorry Andrew, I meant the interview in the topic here entitled, "Ross, about Perry and Steve."

What "Ross interview" in this thread?
If you posted a link, it's certainly not showing up.

[heardonthestreet]

N.C., Darling, I meant, here on this message board, on this page, maybe about seven or eight topics down.............shall I draw you a picture?

[NealIsGod]

N.C., Darling, I meant, here on this message board, on this page, maybe about seven or eight topics down.............shall I draw you a picture?

LOL. She did say it was in the "Ross about Perry and Steve" thread...