Trial by Fire overlooked....

[NealIsGod]

Hey guys! Is this what's called,"arguing with success?"

Elaborate.

[jrnyman28]

Hey guys! Is this what's called,"arguing with success?"

I do not consider TBF a "success". A decent album? Defenitely.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Hey guys! Is this what's called,"arguing with success?"

So because something is succesful it is off-limits to criticism?
TBF's success, in itself, does not render the album impervious to critique.
Lord knows this also to be true for the horrid yet succesful ROR.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I hear Neal solo material, Jon solo material...it just sounded like they threw it all together.

No, that would be Generations.

[jrnyman28]

I hear Neal solo material, Jon solo material...it just sounded like they threw it all together.

No, that would be Generations.

Well, on Generations I hear solo material that became Journey material. I don't know what it is about TBF, but it did not sound like a collaboration as much as indivduals playing together.

And while you may hear Jon's solo work with Every Generation, I don't really. His solo work feels "lighter" to me. So does most of Neal's. They both fit into the almost light jazz, easy listening material on most of their solo work. Yes, there is Steve solo material. And yes, there is the rock vibe that Neal brings from SS. But Neal made SS specifically for that rock edge. Now he is seeing that it CAN fit in Journey. So it still ends up sounding like Journey. They all still sound like a team, working together, no matter the source of the material. It still sounds like the BAND Journey.

IMO

[NoMoreTails]

And yes, there is the rock vibe that Neal brings from SS. But Neal made SS specifically for that rock edge. Now he is seeing that it CAN fit in Journey.IMO

I think Neal has always known it could fit into Journey, and that was his vision of Journey. The problem was that "His Highness" and then Sony didn't think so. I think that rather than bringing it from SS, he took it to SS to start with because of the backlash of so many against Red13.

[jrnyman28]

I think Neal has always known it could fit into Journey, and that was his vision of Journey. The problem was that "His Highness" and then Sony didn't think so. I think that rather than bringing it from SS, he took it to SS to start with because of the backlash of so many against Red13.

I feel the same way. But going off what Neal said in interviews, he mentioned many times that he was "going where he could rock". Something made him think he couldn't do this in Journey. But I think finding the compromise between RED13 and the 'classic' Journey sound has helped form Generations. And it is a compromise that is easier for the fans to adjust to.

[NoMoreTails]

I feel the same way. But going off what Neal said in interviews, he mentioned many times that he was "going where he could rock". Something made him think he couldn't do this in Journey. But I think finding the compromise between RED13 and the 'classic' Journey sound has helped form Generations. And it is a compromise that is easier for the fans to adjust to.

Yeah, personally I'd like to see them push it further in the direction Red13 was going. But I do think Gens is a good compromise not only for what the fans want, but particularly between what Neal wants Journey to be and what Jon may want. In an interview somewhere I think Jon stated something to the affect that Red13 was what Neal wanted to do and that he was only really into WAFTE.

[mnmsjrny]

I really liked TBF because to me it sounded like Journey growing up and moving forward - it sounded like what a band who made Escape and Frontiers should sound like 10 years later. I thought it showed a maturity that maybe went a little too far (I think that dropping one ballad would fix it - my choice would be Don't Be Down On Me Baby), but I felt like Arrival was trying too at times hard to step back (especially To Be Alive Again).

I'm new, so go easy on me. I like both Steves and have no axe to grind.

That's more or less my thought on TBF. I haven't listened to it in a while -- I tend not to because, like ROR, it depresses me with the "what might have and what was" vibe -- but I remember writing a letter to my cousin the day it was released as I was listening to it for the first time. I made some comment along the lines of "it has a lot of ballads, but I guess they're getting older, and we're getting older, so it works"

My cousin has in the intervening years returned the letter to me for posterity, and I should pull it out again and see what ALL my comments were in 1996 (damn... has it really been 9 years?) but one thing I do know, my comments were very similar to the ones that have been stated by many other fans on-line over the years. In 1996, I was just venturing out into the Internet for non-work purposes, so it's neat to see the similar comments with out having the opinions of other fans to assess as well.

Now, as for "To Be Alive Again" ... THAT is my favorite track off Arrival, don't be messin' with it! Otherwise, yes, Arrival was definitely an attempt to sound like Journey circa Escape/Frontiers. I like it more than Generations because it's more Journey-like in the mode of what we're used to, and it grabbed me much quicker than Generations did. However, I love seeing the band stretch out on Generations as well. The guys have a balance they need to keep between keeping their sound familiar enough so that fans don't look at them like they've all got 3 heads and trying new and different things to sound like the reformulated band they are.

[jrnyman28]

I like it more than Generations because it's more Journey-like in the mode of what we're used to, and it grabbed me much quicker than Generations did. However, I love seeing the band stretch out on Generations as well.

I can understand that, and you have a good attitude about it. There is always the issue of what "we the fans" expect. I think Journey has finally figured out that they can do two things at the same time: 1) please a lot of fans and 2) please themselves. I also think thay have figured out that they will never please everyone...which makes it easier to please yourselves along the way.

The guys have a balance they need to keep between keeping their sound familiar enough so that fans don't look at them like they've all got 3 heads and trying new and different things to sound like the reformulated band they are.

And I think they succeeded with Generations...with flying colors!

[OpeningAct]

I remember getting ROR and being incredibly disappointed. Fast forward 10 years or so. I was so excited about Journey reuniting and releasing a new CD, Trial By Fire. I bought it, and remember, once again, being incredibly disappointed. I wrote Journey off as part of my past.

Then the incredible news that Perry was no longer in the band. I was shocked, but VERY interested in hearing who they thought could fill those shoes. I went to see Journey in 1999 or 2000, before Arrival was released. I was amazed at Steve Augeri, and the fantastic job he did at replacing Perry.

Then Arrival came out. I remember liking it, but still not quite as much as ESC4P3 or Frontiers. But it blew away ROR and TBF, which was a good sign.

Fast forward to 2005. Steve Augeri seems to have really settled in nicely with the band. Generations was released. Finally, the band is back to the level of their heyday. Excellent songs, strong vocals, and Neal's guitar wizardry on full display. Journey is BACK.

Back to the level of their heyday????!!!!! Neal's guitar is the one constant of what you described NiG, but I would take ROR and TBF over Generations hands down.

[Monker]

My cousin has in the intervening years returned the letter to me for posterity, and I should pull it out again and see what ALL my comments were in 1996 (damn... has it really been 9 years?)

I was thinking the same thing after Dan said he may put the old Journey digests online. It would be interesting to read my thoughts on TBF...and FTLOSM, if the archives go back that far.

I don't think I posted much about my opinion of TBF right away, because everybody was so hyped for the reunion. I waited until it was obvious, to me, that there would be no tour and the band was on hiatus again...then I really layed on a lot of critique towards the band.

I know I've posted many times that it sounds like "Beyond the Thunder" with Perry adding vocals. It was WAY too much of the same sound. I had the same reaction to it as I did BE's "Backlash"...I thought it was a great album at first but instead of liking the songs MORE as I listened, I ended up liking them less. The only song from TBF that I have always liked was "One More"...because it sounded like they were trying something new and different.

TBF is not an overlooked album. Overall, it's just not that exciting of an album....and nothing really stuck, not even 'When You Love a Woman".

[jrnyman28]

it sounds like "Beyond the Thunder" with Perry adding vocals. ......... .I thought it was a great album at first but instead of liking the songs MORE as I listened, I ended up liking them less.

I agree completely. Very excited at first. Enjoyed TBF, at first. But now....

[NealIsGod]

Back to the level of their heyday????!!!!! Shocked Neal's guitar is the one constant of what you described NiG, but I would take ROR and TBF over Generations hands down.

That's fine. I tried to listen to TBF yesterday, and it is crap, IMO. ROR has some good pop songs on it, but Gens, to me, is fantastic. More suited to my musical tastes.

[thebook]

MMMMMMMmmmmmmm don't know about overlooked. It went Platinum. Arrival, imo was overlooked.

TBF to me is a case of the whole being LESS than the sum of its parts.
I don't like the record as a whole, but still of course listen to it a lot and am fond of a lot of parts on it.

When Augie and Deen first came abord they were playing a lot TBF material. I've heard MOL, WYLAW, Castles Burining, TBF, and Can't Tame The Lion played.

I wonder if it ever sold platinum.
I agree, it didn't live up to its potential, but still some great stuff here and there. Smitty's best playing on a Journey album imo, for example, One More, Jonathan's only real piano solo on a Journey album, and Neal is always great. I didnt think Perry was great on the rockers.
When I Think Of You was a nice sentiment for Perry's mother but came across as the sappiest song they've ever done, imo.
The '98 set list was incredible I thought, I saw the Lousville KY show, they played MOL, WYLAW (I think) Castles Burning, CTTL(I heard it somewhere that year anyway) and One More.

Well, I know 28 corrected me up there, but "shipped" platinum is like I said going platinum. That disticntion's made by units shipped, not necessarilly units sold. So TBF went platinum. I don't know if you can get accurate sales figures for records. The RIAA goes by shipped.

shipped after returns it appears:
The certification process begins with an independent sales audit of each title by Gelfand, Rennert & Feldman, a highly respected accounting firm that has been auditing title sales for the RIAA® for more than 20 years.

The audit calculates what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes, for the life of the release. When certifying audio and music video releases, the independent auditor is careful to survey the entire music marketplace. An artist's Gold® or Platinum® award represents sales through retail, record clubs, rackjobbers, and all other ancillary markets that legitimately distribute music. Once a title’s sales has been audited and verified as having reached requisite levels, a formal certification report is issued and sent to the title's record company.

[thebook]

MMMMMMMmmmmmmm don't know about overlooked. It went Platinum. Arrival, imo was overlooked.

TBF to me is a case of the whole being LESS than the sum of its parts.
I don't like the record as a whole, but still of course listen to it a lot and am fond of a lot of parts on it.

When Augie and Deen first came abord they were playing a lot TBF material. I've heard MOL, WYLAW, Castles Burining, TBF, and Can't Tame The Lion played.

I wonder if it ever sold platinum.
I agree, it didn't live up to its potential, but still some great stuff here and there. Smitty's best playing on a Journey album imo, for example, One More, Jonathan's only real piano solo on a Journey album, and Neal is always great. I didnt think Perry was great on the rockers.
When I Think Of You was a nice sentiment for Perry's mother but came across as the sappiest song they've ever done, imo.
The '98 set list was incredible I thought, I saw the Lousville KY show, they played MOL, WYLAW (I think) Castles Burning, CTTL(I heard it somewhere that year anyway) and One More.

yes, it did go platinum, Andrew's sales figures, from only soundscan, showed over a million. And it did hit #3 on the charts when it debuted, the problem was perry's hip leading to no tour or followup single to "When You Love a Woman". Though I think "If.." was released to AC stations.
Personally I think it's a very good album.

[jrnyman28]

WYLAW and Message Of Love were released simultaneously. If He Should Break Your Heart was the 3 single. The "strength" of the music was not enough to sustain TBF, what does that tell you?

[PROPERRY]

TBF is one of my favorites Cd to listen to! I like alot of the songs on the cd , but my favorites are "Don't Be Down On Me Baby" & "When I think Of You", & "Forever In Blue".

One of the things I appreciate about Perry singing abilities is the way he can "change his singing voice to fit the song". Such as with the song, "Castles Burning". I really like the way he sings that song!

Lori

[jrnyman28]

One of the things I appreciate about Perry singing abilities is the way he can "change his singing voice to fit the song". Such as with the song, "Castles Burning". I really like the way he sings that song!

Lori

This is not a jab at Perry, but I think it is more likely that they changed (actually they wrote) the song to fit his voice. There is no question that Perry used his voice to it's fullest on TBF. The music is just not my first choice in style.

[heardonthestreet]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Hey HOTS, why don't you lay off crucifying Dave and actually answer some of the many valid and cogent counter-arguments put forth to your initial remarks in this thread?

[jrnyman28]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Please explain to me how THIS can be a negative:

There is no question that Perry used his voice to it's fullest on TBF. The music is just not my first choice in style.

[heardonthestreet]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Hey HOTS, why don't you lay off crucifying Dave and actually answer some of the many valid and cogent counter-arguments put forth to your initial remarks in this thread?

.......................................................

WAS I TALKING TO YOU?

[heardonthestreet]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Please explain to me how THIS can be a negative:

There is no question that Perry used his voice to it's fullest on TBF. The music is just not my first choice in style.

......................................................
Take my word on it. Let's just see how long it takes for you to get on his case about any little thing. Your actions will be all the explanation you need. Let's see you prove me wrong. It won't last long. You just have to get your digs in anytime his name is mentioned.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Hey HOTS, why don't you lay off crucifying Dave and actually answer some of the many valid and cogent counter-arguments put forth to your initial remarks in this thread?

.......................................................

WAS I TALKING TO YOU?

What does that matter?
THIS is a public forum.
You entered this thread, made brusque nonsensical comments, and as usual, are now attempting to flee from having to explain or corroborate on ur preposterousness.
So I strongly advise against u starting new arguments when you quite obviously can't even finish the very first one u started.

[Monker]

the problem was perry's hip leading to no tour or followup single to "When You Love a Woman". Though I think "If.." was released to AC stations.

Tours don't sell many albums. If that were the case then Styx' Cyclorama would be a platinum album.

Radio, and TV exposure sell albums...along with promo from the label - which Sony did. Radio simply didn't play it, and Perry refused to do ANY appearences with the band.

Finaly, TBF may have debut at #3, but it fell of the charts VERY quickly...just like Perry's FTLOSM...Once the hype was over, they simply couldn't break onto the radio.

[Monker]

WYLAW and Message Of Love were released simultaneously.

Yep...on the same CD single, along with the remastered "Open Arms".

If He Should Break Your Heart was the 3 single. The "strength" of the music was not enough to sustain TBF, what does that tell you?

Absolutely true.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Please explain to me how THIS can be a negative

Take my word on it. Let's just see how long it takes for you to get on his case about any little thing. Your actions will be all the explanation you need.

Wow.
This is rare.
A case where a Perryfreak is called to prove one of her asinine claims and she comes up empty.
Man, I never saw that coming.
Opting out, resorting to the old stand-by excuse of "err..ur actions prove my argument for me" does not prove jack diddly, HOTS.
If anything, (and that's a big *IF*), it serves to prove how embarassingly out of your depth you are.

[Monker]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

And, you sound like somebody who simply can't face reality. So, you would rather shoot the messenger then understand what he's saying.

TBF is the ONLY Journey album from Infinity on that has absolutely NO vocal 'wow' moments for me. There is absolutely nothing he does on it that I don't think any other decent high tenor voice could do just as well, or better.

I remember during this time that I first listened to a John Farnham CD and had that same 'blown away' feeling as I used to have for Perry. I then knew that Perry had lost more of his vocal ability then most Perry fans would ever admit. His range and clarity is very limited now...it is very evident on TBF. He can't even use the studio to hide it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

His range and clarity is very limited now...it is very evident on TBF. He can't even use the studio to hide it.

I wouldn't go that far.
Next time ur in the shower, try singing "Don't be Down on me Baby" and let us know how you do.