Trial by Fire overlooked....

[jrnyman28]

Take my word on it.

No, I won't take your word on it. Your word means nothing to me. I want you to answer the question!

Let's just see how long it takes for you to get on his case about any little thing. Your actions will be all the explanation you need.

Well, that would make it wasy for me to "not fall into your (oh so obvious) trap. All I have to do is keep quiet.

Let's see you prove me wrong. It won't last long.

It can last a lot longer than YOU can avoid tearing down Neal, Journey and Generations.

You just have to get your digs in anytime his name is mentioned.

I think you have me confused with someone else...

[OpeningAct]

Quit being such a whiner , Dave. imo, you always try to make the least positive into a negative where Steve Perry is concerned. Yes, you do! Don't deny it. Bitch, bitch, bitch. You're worse than a nasty old maid.

Hey HOTS, why don't you lay off crucifying Dave and actually answer some of the many valid and cogent counter-arguments put forth to your initial remarks in this thread?

.......

[The_Noble_Cause]

Hey NC how bout giving a reply about who you would bang in the thread I put up earlier...turnabout is fair play...and if its a guy...well, so be it....
Dpn't be a hypocrite...it doesn't suit you...

Hi Journey Troll.
If I had to choose to take someone to bed with me it would def. have to be you.
With your renowed multiple personality affliction, it'd be like banging five or six different people all for the price of one.
You're an orgy personified, man!
Your friend,
The Noble Cause

[thebook]

the problem was perry's hip leading to no tour or followup single to "When You Love a Woman". Though I think "If.." was released to AC stations.

Tours don't sell many albums. If that were the case then Styx' Cyclorama would be a platinum album.

Radio, and TV exposure sell albums...along with promo from the label - which Sony did. Radio simply didn't play it, and Perry refused to do ANY appearences with the band.

Finaly, TBF may have debut at #3, but it fell of the charts VERY quickly...just like Perry's FTLOSM...Once the hype was over, they simply couldn't break onto the radio.

good points Monker:
Tours don't sell albums, true, but they do help since people would be covering the band more. The tour would have been huge. In case of Styx, nobody really cared since the lineup didn't have both DeYoung and Shaw.

It did fall fast, but most albums are like that now ever since they changed to only sales on album charts, they debut high and fall fast.

Radio played "When you love a Woman" all over the place. It was a top 20 single and was #1 on Casey Kasem's for a couple weeks. Ever since they changed the billboard single criteria, some may argue, Casey's, at that time was more legit. Of course, it depends where you are in terms of what you hear, In Detroit, they played a few cuts off TBF quite a bit.

Same with FTLOSM, it debuted around 13 I think, and "You Better Wait" was played all over the radio.

[OpeningAct]

Back to the level of their heyday????!!!!! Shocked Neal's guitar is the one constant of what you described NiG, but I would take ROR and TBF over Generations hands down.

That's fine. I tried to listen to TBF yesterday, and it is crap, IMO. ROR has some good pop songs on it, but Gens, to me, is fantastic. More suited to my musical tastes.

Music is so subjective anyway....I understand why a lot of people don't like TBF, but it grabs me.

[NealIsGod]

Back to the level of their heyday????!!!!! Shocked Neal's guitar is the one constant of what you described NiG, but I would take ROR and TBF over Generations hands down.

That's fine. I tried to listen to TBF yesterday, and it is crap, IMO. ROR has some good pop songs on it, but Gens, to me, is fantastic. More suited to my musical tastes.

Music is so subjective anyway....I understand why a lot of people don't like TBF, but it grabs me.

Yes, it is. Some people also love the Stones, but I can't stand them.

[OpeningAct]

Back to the level of their heyday????!!!!! Shocked Neal's guitar is the one constant of what you described NiG, but I would take ROR and TBF over Generations hands down.

That's fine. I tried to listen to TBF yesterday, and it is crap, IMO. ROR has some good pop songs on it, but Gens, to me, is fantastic. More suited to my musical tastes.

Music is so subjective anyway....I understand why a lot of people don't like TBF, but it grabs me.

Yes, it is. Some people also love the Stones, but I can't stand them.

I didn't see them on the current tour, but I did see them twice before live...I like em....

[ohsherrie]

Y'know, on second thought, it's not even so much that these ballads are bad when looked at separately on their own merits. It's that they are soo densely clustered together on the album. One ballad after another. It's just overkill for me. Similar to how the 2nd half of Generations is almost rock overload for me.

So let's say the track list was as follows, just for example:

One More
When You Love A Woman
Colors of the Spirit
When I Think of You
Message of Love
Don't Be Down on Me
Castles Burning
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Still She Cries
Can't Tame the Lion
Easy to Fall
It's Just the Rain
Trial by Fire
Baby I'm Leavin' You

Would you have liked it better?

[OpeningAct]

Y'know, on second thought, it's not even so much that these ballads are bad when looked at separately on their own merits. It's that they are soo densely clustered together on the album. One ballad after another. It's just overkill for me. Similar to how the 2nd half of Generations is almost rock overload for me.

So let's say the track list was as follows, just for example:

One More
When You Love A Woman
Colors of the Spirit
When I Think of You
Message of Love
Don't Be Down on Me
Castles Burning
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Still She Cries
Can't Tame the Lion
Easy to Fall
It's Just the Rain
Trial by Fire
Baby I'm Leavin' You

Would you have liked it better?

Hey...I like it!!!!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Y'know, on second thought, it's not even so much that these ballads are bad when looked at separately on their own merits. It's that they are soo densely clustered together on the album. One ballad after another. It's just overkill for me. Similar to how the 2nd half of Generations is almost rock overload for me.

So let's say the track list was as follows, just for example:

One More
When You Love A Woman
Colors of the Spirit
When I Think of You
Message of Love
Don't Be Down on Me
Castles Burning
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Still She Cries
Can't Tame the Lion
Easy to Fall
It's Just the Rain
Trial by Fire
Baby I'm Leavin' You

Would you have liked it better?

No, the ratio of ballads to rockers (9:6) is still improportionate for my tastes. Throw in the rockin Japan bonus track "I Can See it in Your Eyes" and you just might have yourself a deal.

[Rodimus]

When journey got back together to make this album, it was to be their big comeback. Not only did it have powerful, meaningful songs, but it was mixed, and mastered very very well. You have to keep into account that Sony, their label at the time wanted them to be a ballad machine.
THis album does have alot of ballads on it, but about all of them are good. There are about 5 rocking songs out of 14+bonus regae song. These songs are some of my favorite. Cant tame the lion is such a great song that just drives you. MEssage of love, out of all the rockers they have done is my favorite. Castles burning is a little dumb lyrically, but the more I listen to it, the better I like it. One more.....that is an awesome song, that is all I can say for that one. COlors of the spirit, I believe also rocks. ANd I like the style of it too. Many of the ballads like down on me baby, and others are great songs, that by journey standards could be ballad hits. Now this is just my opinion, but Trial by fire is my favorite album. I didnt think that way at first, but it has grown on me alot. Plus to see how much the band had matured and tome come out with something so great after being away from each other for so long says alot.
People will always say they will never compare to the classics, but TBF is a classic album. It may take 20 years for people to see that, but if journey had toured for the album, I think people would have thought otherwise.
On the other hand tehre are maybe, 2 sappy songs, but over all to have 13 out of 15 be listenable over and over again, that says alot.

Again it is my opinion, but I think people just put trial by fire, through a trial by fire.

[NealIsGod]

People will always say they will never compare to the classics, but TBF is a classic album. It may take 20 years for people to see that, but if journey had toured for the album, I think people would have thought otherwise.

Classic albums are classics immediately.

[NoMoreTails]

So let's say the track list was as follows, just for example:

One More
When You Love A Woman
Colors of the Spirit
When I Think of You
Message of Love
Don't Be Down on Me
Castles Burning
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Still She Cries
Can't Tame the Lion
Easy to Fall
It's Just the Rain
Trial by Fire
Baby I'm Leavin' You

Would you have liked it better?

Maybe if you throw out Baby I'mA Leavin' You, Forever In Blew-uhhh, Colors of the Spirit, and the sappy When I think of You. Take out Perry's melodrama on Don't Be Down On Me Baby and add ICSIIYE.

[Rodimus]

An album does not always become a classic right away, especially in the realm that journey has had so many albums and great songs come before TBF. That automatically puts journey fans at a bias to new material. To say that an album becomes a classic right away would be a little flawed.

[NealIsGod]

An album does not always become a classic right away, especially in the realm that journey has had so many albums and great songs come before TBF. That automatically puts journey fans at a bias to new material. To say that an album becomes a classic right away would be a little flawed.

OK, name one. Doesn't have to be Journey.

[OpeningAct]

People will always say they will never compare to the classics, but TBF is a classic album. It may take 20 years for people to see that, but if journey had toured for the album, I think people would have thought otherwise.

Classic albums are classics immediately.

I don't remember ESCAPE being referrred to as a classic back in the day....although it obviously is. I think with time we refer to albums as classics. It was regarded as their breakthrough album, as I remember.
I don't know if TBF will be regarded as a classic album, but I think it may be more appreciated 10, 15 or 20 years ffrom now.
I know there are bands I appreciate and enjoy their music a LOT more now than back in the day (Duran, Duran...Men At Work...REO...Fleetwood Mac),

[NealIsGod]

People will always say they will never compare to the classics, but TBF is a classic album. It may take 20 years for people to see that, but if journey had toured for the album, I think people would have thought otherwise.

Classic albums are classics immediately.

I don't remember ESCAPE being referrred to as a classic back in the day....although it obviously is. I think with time we refer to albums as classics.

It only spawned 4 or 5 monster hits. It immediately launched Journey into the stratosphere.

[OpeningAct]

People will always say they will never compare to the classics, but TBF is a classic album. It may take 20 years for people to see that, but if journey had toured for the album, I think people would have thought otherwise.

Classic albums are classics immediately.

I don't remember ESCAPE being referrred to as a classic back in the day....although it obviously is. I think with time we refer to albums as classics.

It only spawned 4 or 5 monster hits. It immediately launched Journey into the stratosphere.

I think I was elaborating more on my post when you typed this NIG...

[NealIsGod]

When you say an album is considered a "classic", do you mean by the general public, or by the hardcore fans? A song that had one single played for a couple months will never be considered a classic by the general public. As time goes by, I could see the hardcore fans looking back and saying, "Yeah, TBF was a great album." But harcore fans are easy to please!

[OpeningAct]

When you say an album is considered a "classic", do you mean by the general public, or by the hardcore fans? A song that had one single played for a couple months will never be considered a classic by the general public. As time goes by, I could see the hardcore fans looking back and saying, "Yeah, TBF was a great album." But harcore fans are easy to please!

Actually, by the general public NIG...hmmm, so I guess I have to ammend my argument and agree with you on the ESCAPE album being an instant classic then....

[Rodimus]

Escape may have spawned that many hits, but look at the era at was in....
the 80's where music like that was on the verge of coming out. Not only that, Journey was already had a huge following. Come time for trial by fire, was a decade where grunge was the popular trend. Which is deffinately not how journey sounds. therefore, most of the people who would buy the album are older journey fans. Not only that, being that the style of music was not very popular for the times, you are not going to see many hits played on the radio all the time. I heard just the other day, when you love a woman, being played at a starbucks. I was amazed that after 9 years taht song is still being played. Of course I hear faithfully played too, but only on a classic rock station would I ever hear the old Journey. You are not going to hear something from the 90s played on a classic rock station.

Either way, if the album had come out in the 80s, there would have been more than the two singles. At least that is just my opinion.

TBF came out in a different era of music.

ohh and to answer your earlier question, Bon jovi 'these days', is a classic album, I never hear much about it, doesnt get much radio play, as it came out in 95, also in the grunge era. These days, was and is a classic album by bon jovi, and has alot of songs I can listen to time and time again. That album is also underrated.

[NealIsGod]

When you say an album is considered a "classic", do you mean by the general public, or by the hardcore fans? A song that had one single played for a couple months will never be considered a classic by the general public. As time goes by, I could see the hardcore fans looking back and saying, "Yeah, TBF was a great album." But harcore fans are easy to please!

Actually, by the general public NIG...hmmm, so I guess I have to ammend my argument and agree with you on the ESCAPE album being an instant classic then....

I remember it was hard to turn on the radio w/o hearing DSB, SIL, OA, or WCN. Was Still They Ride on the radio? I think I remember it was. Dave? TNC? A little help!

[OpeningAct]

When you say an album is considered a "classic", do you mean by the general public, or by the hardcore fans? A song that had one single played for a couple months will never be considered a classic by the general public. As time goes by, I could see the hardcore fans looking back and saying, "Yeah, TBF was a great album." But harcore fans are easy to please!

Actually, by the general public NIG...hmmm, so I guess I have to ammend my argument and agree with you on the ESCAPE album being an instant classic then....

I remember it was hard to turn on the radio w/o hearing DSB, SIL, OA, or WCN. Was Still They Ride on the radio? I think I remember it was. Dave? TNC? A little help!

The summer of 81 NIG...the guys were somewhere on the dial 24-7....

[amaron]

Was Still They Ride on the radio? I think I remember it was. Dave? TNC? A little help!

Sure was.

Code: Select all

Year   Single    Chart    Peak
1978   Anytime   Pop Singles   83
1978   Lights   Pop Singles   68
1978   Wheel In The Sky   Pop Singles   57
1979   Just The Same Way   Pop Singles   58
1979   "Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin'"   Pop Singles   16
1980   Any Way You Want It   Pop Singles   23
1980   Good Morning Girl/Stay Awhile   Pop Singles   55
1980   Too Late   Pop Singles   70
1980   Walks Like A Lady   Pop Singles   32
1981   Dixie Highway   Mainstream Rock   30
1981   Don't Stop Believin'   Mainstream Rock   8
1981   Don't Stop Believin'   Pop Singles   9
1981   Stone In Love   Mainstream Rock   13
1981   Who's Crying Now   Mainstream Rock   4
1981   Who's Crying Now   Pop Singles   4
1981   The Party's Over (Hopelessly In Love)   Mainstream Rock   2
1981   The Party's Over (Hopelessly In Love)   Pop Singles   34
1982   Only Solutions   Mainstream Rock   22
1982   Open Arms   Adult Contemporary   7
1982   Open Arms   Mainstream Rock   35
1982   Open Arms   Pop Singles   2
1982   Still They Ride   Adult Contemporary   37
1982   Still They Ride   Mainstream Rock   47
1982   Still They Ride   Pop Singles   19
1983   After the Fall   Mainstream Rock   30
1983   After the Fall   Pop Singles   23
1983   Faithfully   Adult Contemporary   24
1983   Faithfully   Pop Singles   12
1983   Send Her My Love   Adult Contemporary   27
1983   Send Her My Love   Pop Singles   23
1983   Send Her My Love   The Billboard Hot 100   23
1983   Separate Ways (Worlds Apart)   Mainstream Rock   1
1983   Separate Ways (Worlds Apart)   Pop Singles   8
1985   Only the Young   Mainstream Rock Tracks   3
1985   Only the Young   The Billboard Hot 100   9
1986   Be Good to Yourself   Mainstream Rock Tracks   2
1986   Be Good to Yourself   The Billboard Hot 100   9
1986   Girl Can't Help It   Mainstream Rock Tracks   9
1986   Girl Can't Help It   The Billboard Hot 100   17
1986   I'll Be Alright Without You   The Billboard Hot 100   14
1986   Raised on Radio   Mainstream Rock Tracks   27
1986   Suzanne   Mainstream Rock Tracks   11
1986   Suzanne   The Billboard Hot 100   17
1987   I'll Be Alright Without You   Adult Contemporary   7
1987   I'll Be Alright Without You   Mainstream Rock Tracks   26
1987   Why Can't This Night Go on Forever   Adult Contemporary   24
1987   Why Can't This Night Go on Forever   The Billboard Hot 100   60
1993   Lights   Adult Contemporary   30
1993   Lights   The Billboard Hot 100   74
1993   Natural Thing   Mainstream Rock Tracks   32
1996   Message of Love   Mainstream Rock Tracks   18
1996   When You Love a Woman   Adult Contemporary   1
1996   When You Love a Woman   Adult Top 40   3
1996   When You Love a Woman   The Billboard Hot 100   12
1996   When You Love a Woman   Top 40 Mainstream   9
1996   When You Love a Woman   Top 40 Mainstream   15
1997   Can't Tame the Lion   Mainstream Rock Tracks   33
1997   When You Love a Woman   Top 40 Adult Recurrents   2
2001   All the Way   Adult Contemporary   22
2005   Don't Stop Believin'   Hot Digital Songs   13

[NealIsGod]

Wow, that is awesome info, amaron. Are those in order of release? For example, After the Fall is listed well before Separate Ways, and I thought SW was the first single released off of Frontiers.

[amaron]

Wow, that is awesome info, amaron. Are those in order of release? For example, After the Fall is listed well before Separate Ways, and I thought SW was the first single released off of Frontiers.

Alphabetical Order.

More fun:

Code: Select all

Year   Album    Chart    Peak
1975   Journey   Pop Albums   138
1976   Look Into The Future   Pop Albums   100
1977   Next   Pop Albums   85
1978   Infinity   Pop Albums   21
1979   Evolution   Pop Albums   20
1980   Departure   Pop Albums   8
1980   In The Beginning   Pop Albums   152
1981   Captured   Pop Albums   9
1981   Escape   Pop Albums   1
1983   Escape   The Billboard 200   139
1983   Escape   The Billboard 200   156
1983   Frontiers   Pop Albums   2
1983   Frontiers   The Billboard 200   33
1983   Frontiers   The Billboard 200   38
1986   Raised on Radio   The Billboard 200   4
1988   Greatest Hits   The Billboard 200   10
1988   Greatest Hits   The Billboard 200   18
1992   Time 3   The Billboard 200   90
1996   Trial By Fire   The Billboard 200   3
1998   Greatest Hits Live   The Billboard 200   79
2001   Arrival   The Billboard 200   56
2001   Arrival   Top Internet Albums   12
2001   The Essential Journey   The Billboard 200   47


[jrnyman28]

I remember it was hard to turn on the radio w/o hearing DSB, SIL, OA, or WCN. Was Still They Ride on the radio? I think I remember it was. Dave? TNC? A little help!

I see amaron already answered with some killer facts. I was simply going to state that I knew Still They Ride was a single because the B-Side was La Raza Del Sol...

[NealIsGod]

I remember it was hard to turn on the radio w/o hearing DSB, SIL, OA, or WCN. Was Still They Ride on the radio? I think I remember it was. Dave? TNC? A little help!

I see amaron already answered with some killer facts. I was simply going to state that I knew Still They Ride was a single because the B-Side was La Raza Del Sol...

Yeah, I have that 45"!

[jrnyman28]

Bon jovi 'these days', is a classic album, I never hear much about it, doesnt get much radio play, as it came out in 95, also in the grunge era. These days, was and is a classic album by bon jovi, and has alot of songs I can listen to time and time again. That album is also underrated.

OK, I have tried to stay out of the "classic" album conversation. But this comment gave me something to say. Escape is widely regarded as a classic album. And it was recognized very early on because of the amount of success it enjoyed. In fact, I think it was an episode of "Ultimate Albums" on VH1. If it wasn't, it should have been.

But you are listing "These Days" as a classic album. Now it is not universally talked about as a classic album. You have the personal opinion that it is. That is the difference. It is widely accepted that Slippery When Wet is a classic album. VH's VH1 and 1984 are widely acknowledged as classics. Hotel California is a classic.

For an album to be acknowledged as a classic I think 2 things must happen: it must be very successful and it must stand the test of time publicly. A classic album must practically define a genre/era/time period. It must give a band identity.

"These Days" is a good CD. It is full of good music. But I don't believe it will ever be looked on as a classic by anyone other than hardcore fans. Critics, journalists, music/culture historians are not going to cite that CD as a classic. And they won't about TBF either. That does not mean the CD does not have all the makings of a classic CD...but it takes a social impact to create the label of "classic".

A classic (IMO) requires social, cultural, popular impact.

[NealIsGod]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Dave. Fantastic reply.