Location, location, location.

[jrnyman28]

Outside writers is not needed anymore than it was while Perry was in the band.

Sorry, I thought I'd read somewhere on here that they had outside writing on this one too.

There ARE outside writers on "Generations". Steve got some help from a friend on one of his tracks. Neal's wife somehow helped with "Gone Crazy" apparantly, and the other(s) was an/were Arrival leftover(s).

Again, I don't know why you think Steve contributed so little to the mix.

I don't think it is a case of "so little", just less. And I think the reason people feel that way is based on the obvious leap in lyrical content on Escape. I have a feeling Perry would get vocal melodies and content ideas. Then Jon might flesh out Perry's ideas into lyrics. As Jon said, Perry liked the 'she left me' material. We know Perry came up with some good stuff, but based on how many times he has used collaborators compared to how many times he has written songs by himself I think it is fair to say Jon contributed a larger portion of the lyrics. In the end it is all conjecture though. But that is my theory based on the facts I do have...

[NoMoreTails]

Of course he would, I'm just saying he had to to replace Jonathan's (very likely greater than half) input.
My point was that I think Augeri's writing outside Journey was better than Perry's.

I don't know why you think Jon did the bigger part of the writing, but since I can't prove he didn't I'll just let that go,

Comparing the quality of Cain/Perry material to Perry outside Journey material, this is the conclusion I draw, I felt that maybe Jonathan had more input. Perhaps I made a jump from quality to quantity.

Sorry, I thought I'd read somewhere on here that they had outside writing on this one too..

There are a couple of outside writing credits on Generations, but they were hold overs from the Arrival sessions, as well as one Steve wrote with someone outside the band.

Again, I don't know why you think Steve contributed so little to the mix. I think he probably, in most cases, provided a lot of the hooks, melodies and lyrics, Neal provided the guitar work and the bridges, and Jon tied them together. Like a lot of popular songwriters, Steve doesn't formally read or write music, I don't think Neal does either, so I'm sure Jon provided a lot of the technical expertise where it was needed. Like they said in an ROR interview, Steve was the melodic, Neal the rock dog, and Jon was Amadeus.

I don't mean to sound like I think he contributed very little, just that I wouldn't think it would equate to Jon's contribution. Of course part of the lyrics and melodies would be from Perry, which is what I was saying.
I doubt Perry came to Neal and Jon with any of the guitar riffs or piano lines that were the basis of the songs. Even on LTS written by himself, the music he came up with was just a note progression on the bass guitar, if I recall the story correctly. I would think rather than picking up an instrument and writing something, Perry would come up with a melody and sing it to them. Therefore I said some of the melodies would basically be his contribution music-wise.
I definitely didn't imply that anyone in the band was sitting down to write out a chart for the others to play from.

[ohsherrie]

Since there are basically just the three of us having this discussion, I won't go throught the quote for quote thing.

Dave and NoMoreTails,

I think what Steve said in several interviews is that he did, in fact sing his ideas. If he wasn't with them at the time he came up with them he sang them into a recorder and took them to the sessions. In a group collaboration it would only make since that the musicians would contribute the instrumental parts.

To get back to what I originally said, I think it was the chemistry within those collaborations that made the music so great. That's why the music is overall better on TBF than FTLOSM. I don't know if there is the same kind of chemistry within the current band, but it was Jon's apparent lack of motivation that began this discussion, so I suggested that as a possible cause.

As far as the music written by Jon and Steve separately, I wasn't all that impressed with Bad English as compared to Street Talk and FTLOSM. That may be because I REALLY don't like John Waite and I'm all about how the vocals deliver the lyrics and melody. I don't know what else Jon has written other than Arrival and Generations, and I didn't care much for Arrival. We don't know what else Steve may have written that we haven't heard. He's said he's got a lot of stuff that he hasn't done anything with. I have no reason to disbelieve him. I would love to hear it, but just because I probably won't doesn't mean I should have any less respect for the great work that he's already given us and doubt his ability to do more. I also don't think it's fair that his contributions should be diminished just because Jon's doing something else now.

[NoMoreTails]

Since there are basically just the three of us having this discussion, I won't go throught the quote for quote thing.

Dave and NoMoreTails,

I think what Steve said in several interviews is that he did, in fact sing his ideas. If he wasn't with them at the time he came up with them he sang them into a recorder and took them to the sessions. In a group collaboration it would only make since that the musicians would contribute the instrumental parts.

I agree with this and have heard him say this as well, my saying he contributed part of the melodies but not chord progressions, riffs, etc is not an insult to him. On some of the songs where his melody was the original idea, the songs would never have been written if not for his idea. On Neal and Jon's original ideas, Perry's input certainly is a part of what made them what they were. But I feel that the "Journey sound" musically (not vocally of course) is the collective efforts of Neal and Jon primarily as Perry didn't play an instrument on the album or pick one up and show them what to play. I'm sure he did a lot of critiquing and editing.

but it was Jon's apparent lack of motivation that began this discussion, so I suggested that as a possible cause

Jon's motivation issues are likely more due to the situation with Napster, etc as Dave or someone here suggested recently. Everything thats been said lately has been very positive about Steve as a writer.

As far as the music written by Jon and Steve separately, I wasn't all that impressed with Bad English as compared to Street Talk and FTLOSM. That may be because I REALLY don't like John Waite and I'm all about how the vocals deliver the lyrics and melody. I don't know what else Jon has written other than Arrival and Generations, and I didn't care much for Arrival. We don't know what else Steve may have written that we haven't heard. He's said he's got a lot of stuff that he hasn't done anything with. I have no reason to disbelieve him. I would love to hear it, but just because I probably won't doesn't mean I should have any less respect for the great work that he's already given us and doubt his ability to do more. I also don't think it's fair that his contributions should be diminished just because Jon's doing something else now.

"just because Jon's doing something else now" --This has nothing to do with my opinion that Jon's a better, more prolific songwriter. But, as far as what else Jon has done, enough to earn a nice living as a songwriter only, no doubt.
Besides Bad English which could have been well on its way to being the hit machine that Journey was, Jon Cain has written for a great many people, helping break Michael Bolton and Jimmy Barnes, his solo vocal album has some great singer-songwriter type songs.

He's said he's got a lot of stuff that he hasn't done anything with. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

And we have no reason to disbelieve that Kevin Chalfont has better songs in his underwear drawer than what are on TBF although we'll never hear them.

[yak]

He's said he's got a lot of stuff that he hasn't done anything with. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

And we have no reason to disbelieve that Kevin Chalfont has better songs in his underwear drawer than what are on TBF although we'll never hear them.

Yeah, if he has all these tunes, where are they? I've been asking that for awhile now.

[ohsherrie]

Jon's motivation issues are likely more due to the situation with Napster, etc as Dave or someone here suggested recently.

I don't really understand that NMT. Seriously, why would the Napster thing have such a dramatic impact on his motivation as a songwriter? I understand that it had an impact on the sales of Arrival, but unless all your writing means to you is having "hits", that shouldn't impact what you want to say as a musician. Maybe I'm just being naively idealistic in that though.

"just because Jon's doing something else now" --This has nothing to do with my opinion that Jon's a better, more prolific songwriter. But, as far as what else Jon has done, enough to earn a nice living as a songwriter only, no doubt.
Besides Bad English which could have been well on its way to being the hit machine that Journey was, Jon Cain has written for a great many people, helping break Michael Bolton and Jimmy Barnes, his solo vocal album has some great singer-songwriter type songs.

I didn't mean to directly imply that you were intentionally dissing Steve. It just seemed like the thread was going in that direction and I wanted to point that out. I think it should be possible to appreciate Jon without doing it at the expense of Steve's credibility. I have no doubt that Jon is an extremely talented musician. In fact, my grandson is starting his piano lessons and I'm going to get him one of Jon's solo CDs as an example of what he can accomplish.

And we have no reason to disbelieve that Kevin Chalfont has better songs in his underwear drawer than what are on TBF although we'll never hear them.

I don't know anything about Kevin Chalfont, but he may be a very good songwriter. If you want to hear them, I hope you get to do so. I hope I someday get to hear Steve's. Which is better though, may again be a matter of personal taste.

[jrnyman28]

I don't really understand that NMT. Seriously, why would the Napster thing have such a dramatic impact on his motivation as a songwriter? I understand that it had an impact on the sales of Arrival, but unless all your writing means to you is having "hits", that shouldn't impact what you want to say as a musician. Maybe I'm just being naively idealistic in that though.

It seems simple to me...you take the time to create something only to have it stolen from you. That would affect my passion for my art too.

I don't know anything about Kevin Chalfont, but he may be a very good songwriter. If you want to hear them, I hope you get to do so. I hope I someday get to hear Steve's. Which is better though, may again be a matter of personal taste.

Kevin was referring to the music he and Journey wrote together before the TBF (with Gregg). I would LOVE to hear that material. Kevin has said that he plans on recording some of them, but he keeps doing other projects instead.

I would also love to hear the material Steve has shelved. And if it was recorded when he wrote it it should be pretty good. However, if he tries to record it now, he may have to re-work it some to account for the physical changes. Not that that is a bad thing...it could be very advantagious (sp?) to the material. But I think it is unlikely that he will ever record a full-length CD again.

[ohsherrie]

It seems simple to me...you take the time to create something only to have it stolen from you. That would affect my passion for my art too.

Well maybe, I don't know. I don't really think the Napster thing was the whole problem with Arrival. But that's another subject. Maybe he though it was that relevant.

Kevin was referring to the music he and Journey wrote together before the TBF (with Gregg). I would LOVE to hear that material. Kevin has said that he plans on recording some of them, but he keeps doing other projects instead.

Since I know nothing about Kevin, and I'm not a fan of Gregg, I don't have a lot of interest in these songs. I respect the fact that you do though.

I would also love to hear the material Steve has shelved. And if it was recorded when he wrote it it should be pretty good. However, if he tries to record it now, he may have to re-work it some to account for the physical changes. Not that that is a bad thing...it could be very advantagious (sp?) to the material. But I think it is unlikely that he will ever record a full-length CD again.

I think I'd prefer to hear Steve redo the stuff if it's old. I love his deeper more soulful voice. I don't know if he'll ever do another cd, but I won't be any less a fan if he doesn't.

[mnmsjrny]

Wow... a two page thread that hasn't gone to hell... will wonders ever cease??

Okay, I'm a bit brain dead today from 3 concerts in 3 days (all excellent) but I'm going to add my two cents.

1. Jon, Neal, & Ross are all still living in the Bay Area, Deen's up in the Portland area, and Steve's in New York. While I would imagine this would provide *some* difficulty in the creative process, I doubt it would be a show stopper. They spend sufficient time together and modern technology can help with the distance.

2. One of the things that hasn't been pointed out about Arrival is that a LOT of those songs were lying around before it was recorded. That is why there are more outside writers than usual. Jon and Neal had a lot of down time between TBF and going back on the road in '98 and they were writing solo works.

3. Someone pointed out the change in lyrics once Escape was released. The one thing I've always noticed about Journey lyrics pre-Jonathan Cain is that they were fairly simplistic and basically about sex and life on the road. The songs with the strongest images had input from other people -- Robert Fleischman & Diane Valory for "Wheel in the Sky" for example. When Jon joined the band there was more a song-as-story vibe added. The line I always remember is Jon saying "what I added to the songs was the fans" -- or something like that. He brought that "oh my god this is my life" sense that a lot of the songs have. That's not to say it was all one person, but by bringing in different strengths other bits came in to focus. Am I making sense? (I'm really tired)

4. I can really see how having worked so hard to make something happen only to have it stolen, unsupported, and generally not do well beyond a small circle would cause a lack of motivation. God knows that when I work my butt off on a project for work only to be told "thanks for your work, but we're doing something else now" I am hugely frustrated and far less motivated to work as hard on the NEXT project.

[mnmsjrny]

whoops. double post.

[Rockindeano]

I haven't heard all of Generations(still waiting on my CD from Deano), what I've heard was pretty good,

I am sorry there Oh Sherrie...I have been a bit busy....I am going home for 5 days so I will get that out to you....It is very good.......
I will catch the last show on the tour in LA.......Sorry for the delay Sherry.

[ohsherrie]

I haven't heard all of Generations(still waiting on my CD from Deano), what I've heard was pretty good,

I am sorry there Oh Sherrie...I have been a bit busy....I am going home for 5 days so I will get that out to you....It is very good.......
I will catch the last show on the tour in LA.......Sorry for the delay Sherry.

I'm so damn glad to hear from you!!! Not because of the CD either.

[Monker]

I guess you can say that's true IF you really think most of the songs on Arrival and Generation are of the quality of most of the ones that were on the earlier albums.

I don't think there is ANY drop in 'quality' on Arrival or Generations (or Red 13). There is absolutely no way you can point to an instance on those songs and say such things...and especialy not admit there are the "Back Talk" and "Dead or Alive" and "Homemade Love" of the earlier years.

So do you think just anyone could have written those Journey songs that you love if they had Jon among them and worked hard enough on it?

Some of them - absolutely yes. He had "Open Arms" when he came in the band. He wrote "Faithfully" on his own. It was his inspiration that brought "Send Her My Love" and "Rubicon". I don't think he NEEDED Perry (or Neal) to complete those ideas. In fact, BE's "Price of Love" would have made a great Journey. It's also a bit ironic that the most success the Babys enjoyed was right after Jonathan joined...and the most successful time of Journey was right after Jonathan joined.

When you listen to things like the promo interview for Frontiers you find Perry being asked about songs and him not knowing what he's talking about...then Jonathan having to come in to tell how the song 'really' came about. JONATHAN is the one who brought the Journey sound together in the 80's...not Steve Perry. It is PLAINLY obviously to me in the songs, the interviews, and even how Journey has carried themselves today...and how Steve Perry failed to carry himself without him.

IMO some of their best songwriting is on ROR. Second only to TBF. The songs on those two albums just said more than most of the songs on most of the earlier albums. (Speaking collectively, not song for song.)

Even if that is true, they said it in a pop voice and not a Journey voice. It is no different then having Ross sing a song that sounds more like ZZ Top then Journey. There is a certain history of sound from Journey and to totaly turn their back on it as they did on ROR is NOT a good thing...whether it be ROR *OR* a couple songs on Generations.

In another post you mentioned Somewhere There's Hope. Do you not think Missing You

I think "Missing You" is the best song on the CD...and it is over shadowed by MANY mediocre and subpar songs....But, Perry did not write it on his own, and you have NO IDEA who wrote what on that song.

You Better Wait

That was written by about ten people and in no way showcases Perry's songwriting abilities. It doesn't even reflect the way FTLOSM sounds!

Anyway

That song shows exactly the problem with Perry's songwriting abilities. "What was I saying?" He has the ability to start something good, but hardly ever has the ability to finish it on his own. In the end, it is a mediocre song with good intentions. Just because he meant it to be something special does NOT mean it contains special songwriting.

and the title track FTLOSM are good songs?

Geez, no. That song drolls on and on and has nothing captivating about it, especialy musicaly. The lyrics are OK, but it is delivered in a balladish form surrounded by boring music. The song mediocre at best.

You also mentioned LTS. It wasn't the instrumental parts that made it a fun song to hear, it was the story that it told and the way it was presented.

I think you are entirely wrong about that. It is the "nana" part that got it playing on school buses...not the entire "that girl screwed around on me" bit.

Lights said quite a lot within a great melody.

And, it was NEAL who provided that melody. Perry was not the sole writer as he was on LTS. Very few Journey songs have Perry as the only writer.

I do not believe Perry has the writing skills to write great songs on his own. If you look at his entire career, you can count on one hand the number of songs he wrote on his own. He always has a "Jonathan" to bounce idea off of, or to run to in the pouring rain with a song idea. You don't hear of Jonathan, or even Neal, running to Perry's house to complete a song.

[Monker]

Many may give Perry more credit than he is due for songs where Cain's contribution was probably more than Perry's.
IMO, Augeri's writing prior to Journey is more impressive than Perry's outside of Journey. Even though Perry always sought out some of the biggest name writers to help on his solo stuff. Perhaps Monker will supply the details of a statement one of the writers made about Perry giving some direction and expecting someone else to do the work and having to share credit with Perry.
And LTS, Perry's biggest sole writing credit with Journey is a largely borrowed from Sam Cooke. IMO the instrumentation (Neal) of LTS is the only thing that makes it listenable.

That's an old interview....I don't remember who said it. But, basicaly the guy was thrilled to be asked by Perry to write with him. What happened was Perry provided nothing but an 'idea' and expected the other guy to write the entire song from that idea. The times that he DID write the song, Perry insisted on a writing credit AND insisted on being listed first. The guy was so angry that he refused to let them be published and said he would never work with Perry again.

Another is about "Foolish Heart". One of his cowriters for Street Talk basicaly wrote that entire song...and became furious over how Perry took credit for that song.

Also,

[NoMoreTails]

That's an old interview....I don't remember who said it. But, basicaly the guy was thrilled to be asked by Perry to write with him. What happened was Perry provided nothing but an 'idea' and expected the other guy to write the entire song from that idea. The times that he DID write the song, Perry insisted on a writing credit AND insisted on being listed first. The guy was so angry that he refused to let them be published and said he would never work with Perry again.

Another is about "Foolish Heart". One of his cowriters for Street Talk basicaly wrote that entire song...and became furious over how Perry took credit for that song.

Also,

So one might assume as I have, that its very possible Jonathan did most of the real work on a great many Journey songs Perry got a writing credit on. And the being listed first thing with Journey is obviously a crock, Perry could not have had the first nor the most input on every song they wrote.

Thanks Monker and mnmsjrny for those great posts.

[ohsherrie]

Monker, I'm not trying to brush off what you had to say, but Dave and NoMoreTails have already brought up most of the points you mentioned. I've responded to them in various posts so I won't bore all of us by doing so point by point again.

I don't think I said anywhere that I didn't think Jon was a great songwriter and overall musical talent. I just think some people are selling Steve's abilities short.

I obviously don't agree with your assessment of the songs on FTLOSM. On the Missing You writing session CD it sounded to me like Steve was coming up with the lyrics and fine tuning the melody progressively all through the session. You must have heard it differently, but that's not really a surprise is it.

I don't, personally, think the songs that I've heard that were written for Arrival or Generations are as good as the MAJORITY of the songs from the classic albums, regardless of who did the writing. We were discussing the possibility that Jon has lost some of his writing motivation. I suggested that the chemistry between Perry/Cain/Schon may have been a motivating factor in their time. Nothing more, nothing less, and not meant to take anything away from any member of any lineup.

Even though you, in your uniquely charming way, state your opinions as if they are fact simply by virtue of having been said by you, all any of us can really say is that we all hear what we hear according to our individual tastes(and possibly our preconceptions?), and like what we like.

Lovely chatting with you as usual.

[Eric]

This is just the usual case where Perry is given too much or even all the credit by the mass...and that is unfair. Then hardcore fans like myself overzealously support the current era by downgrading Perry's contributions too much the other way..

I will make these quick blanket statements, which are sure to anger everyone at least once:

1) Cain was as responsible for the 80's hits as much as Perry, if not more.
2) Journey had hits before Cain. They weren't as big then, but they are
more respected now (Just the Same Way, Feeling that Way/Anytime,
Lights, LTS, Wheel in the Sky, Anyway You want it).
3) Perry's solo stuff lacked the Journey magic.
4) Current era Journey needed outside help on Arrival, and have only 2
full length albums in 8 years - so Perry is clearly missed in that regard.
5) Arrival and Generations would have been smash hits in the 80's
6) Escape and Frontiers would be bombs in the 2000's. Sorry-true...
7) Augeri hasn't contributed much writing in 8 years
Perry hasn't done any writing in years (that we know of)
9) Perry is retired
10) Augeri is not

[jrnyman28]

Those seem pretty fair Eric.

[NoMoreTails]

[quote="Eric"]T
4) Current era Journey needed outside help on Arrival, and have only 2
full length albums in 8 years - so Perry is clearly missed in that regard.
5) Arrival and Generations would have been smash hits in the 80's
6) Escape and Frontiers would be bombs in the 2000's. Sorry-true...

Some good points, these are the ones I find most interesting, 5&6 I certainly agree with.
As for 4, I don't think lack of creativity or Perry missing is the issue with the amount of material or number of albums since 98. They are on pretty much the same pace Journey would likely have been if they had continued after 1986, there were three years between Frontiers and ROR. Bands don't do an album every year like they used to twenty years ago, but I do feel that maybe Journey should have their fourth full-length Augeri era album out by now.
As for outside help on Arrival, it was another JDK mistake, he pushed them to write additional material with outside writers and ended up with songs that shouldn't have even been on the album.

[ohsherrie]

Eric,

There's nothing in your post that should make anyone angry. Numbers 5&6 though, are pretty much opinion rather than fact. I also don't think anyone in this thread was trying to give Steve ALL the credit. If someone did and I missed the post, forgive me. I do agree that some people tried to overcompensate for a perceived slight toward Jon.

[NoMoreTails]

Eric,

There's nothing in your post that should make anyone angry. Numbers 5&6 though, are pretty much opinion rather than fact.

There are not millions of record buyers waiting for Perry to return to Journey. These are different times, as different from 1996 as 1996 was from 1986.
If Journey had replaced Perry in 1984 or 87, they would have lost some Perry only fans, but they certainly would have still done very well.

[Eric]

ohsherrie,

Yeah - they are certainly opinion, however, I feel pretty confident about them, especially that Escape and Frontiers would have been bombs in the 2000's. There is obviously no way to prove this, but Arrival and Generations would fit the music climate of the 80's and Escape and Frontiers wouldn't fit the music climate today...

[amaron]

There is obviously no way to prove this, but Arrival and Generations would fit the music climate of the 80's and Escape and Frontiers wouldn't fit the music climate today...

Plain and simple. Journey is an AOR band. AOR is dead in the US radio scene.

That's it. That is the one of the reasons Arrival sold only 300,000 and why Generations won't top that. No one will touch Journey unless they are promoting something.

[ohsherrie]

There are not millions of record buyers waiting for Perry to return to Journey. These are different times, as different from 1996 as 1996 was from 1986.
If Journey had replaced Perry in 1984 or 87, they would have lost some Perry only fans, but they certainly would have still done very well.

I agree that it's a logical assumption, but it's just that, not fact. I guess it's just sort of a pet peeve with me to have opinion, however logically derived, presented as fact. No big thing most of the time, just a minor irritation for me.

[NoMoreTails]

There are not millions of record buyers waiting for Perry to return to Journey. These are different times, as different from 1996 as 1996 was from 1986.
If Journey had replaced Perry in 1984 or 87, they would have lost some Perry only fans, but they certainly would have still done very well.

I agree that it's a logical assumption, but it's just that, not fact. I guess it's just sort of a pet peeve with me to have opinion, however logically derived, presented as fact. No big thing most of the time, just a minor irritation for me.

I think most everyone here is capable of realizing that this is my opinion, it obviously is not based on any scientific evidence. Is it really necessary to put IMO on every sentence we write...

[ohsherrie]

I think most everyone here is capable of realizing that this is my opinion, it obviously is not based on any scientific evidence. Is it really necessary to put IMO on every sentence we write...

Of course that isn't necessary.

This is what I was talking about:

5) Arrival and Generations would have been smash hits in the 80's
6) Escape and Frontiers would be bombs in the 2000's. Sorry-true...

The "Sorry-true..."part.
That's what I said was opinion, not fact, and I didn't mean for it to offend anyone or become an issue. Geeeez NMT, don't be so touchy.

[NoMoreTails]

I think most everyone here is capable of realizing that this is my opinion, it obviously is not based on any scientific evidence. Is it really necessary to put IMO on every sentence we write...

Of course that isn't necessary.

This is what I was talking about:

5) Arrival and Generations would have been smash hits in the 80's
6) Escape and Frontiers would be bombs in the 2000's. Sorry-true...

The "Sorry-true..."part.
That's what I said was opinion, not fact, and I didn't mean for it to offend anyone or become an issue. Geeeez NMT, don't be so touchy.

My appologies...I thought the fact comment was in reply to my post.

[Monker]

> We were discussing the possibility that Jon has lost some of his
> writing motivation.

...and you were also discussing how much, or little, Steve Perry contributed to Journey songs. I think that there is very little to base an opinion that Perry was more involved in the writing process then Neal and especialy Jonathan.

> I suggested that the chemistry between
> Perry/Cain/Schon may have been a motivating
> factor in their time.

It may have been. But, there are MANY other things to add to that motivation...Herbie pushing the band forward. The snowball effect of the success they had. Their immense popularity. I'm sure there are many other things too. IMO, the 'writing chemistry' is probably just one of many things and probably not as significant you may believe...especialy for someone like Jonathan who doesn't need two other songwriters in the mix anyway.

> Even though you, in your uniquely charming way, state your opinions
> as if they are fact simply by virtue of having been said by you,

No, I state my opinion and then surround it by facts to explain WHY I have that opinion.

> all any of us can really say is that we all hear what we hear
> according to our individual tastes(and possibly our
> preconceptions?), and like what we like.

And, I can also repeat what others have said about Perry...to explain WHY he is listed first on so many songs...some he had very little to do with, like "Open Arms". I gave two examples...Cliff Magness (Dave was right) and "Foolish Heart", and a third would be Herbie's interview where he said Perry pushed Cain into the background during interviews and took more credit for Escape then he deserved.

Yeah, Perry made his contributions to Journey...But, it seems to me that some people have over-estimated the size of that contribution. He brought in "Patiently" and "Lights" and LTS and much of Evolution and "Walks Like a Lady". But, following Departure, his influence seemed to diminish in favor of Jonathan's writing...until ROR. But, even on ROR, Jonathan's writing is there...Neal even said he removed himself from the process...So, who do you think picked up Neal's slack?

As for Jonathan not being motivated. I said I believed that, before anyone, I think...and that is the reason there has not been so many new songs from the band. If he had been motivated, I would think Red 13 would have been a full album. I don't think it has anything to do with writing chemistry...it has to do with putting your heart and soul into something and having it given away without your permission. Jonathan has even said that killed his motivation as a songwriter. He also said that motivation came back when he started working with Augeri for Generations. I have no reason to not believe him. Do you?

One other thing...I would have to go and check, but I think the writing sessions with Jack Blades took place BEFORE Augeri was even hired. I think Neal commented on it somewhere that he had those songs and Augeri took off with them very naturaly. That interview may even be here on mr.com, not sure.

[Monker]

1) Cain was as responsible for the 80's hits as much as Perry, if not more.

And, so was Neal.

2) Journey had hits before Cain. They weren't as big then, but they are
more respected now (Just the Same Way, Feeling that Way/Anytime,
Lights, LTS, Wheel in the Sky, Anyway You want it).

I'm not sure how you measure that 'respect'. They have definitely survived the passing of time...

3) Perry's solo stuff lacked the Journey magic.

Yep! I have always felt he should not have even tried to go there (which is what I think he tried to do with FTLOSM)...He should have been unique and cotinued down a different path then Journey's sound.

4) Current era Journey needed outside help on Arrival, and have only 2
full length albums in 8 years - so Perry is clearly missed in that regard.

I disagree with this...I think Sony REQUIRED outside 'help' for Arrival...But, I doubt VERY much that they 'needed' it.

5) Arrival and Generations would have been smash hits in the 80's

If Sony had ignored it in the 80's as they did in the 90's - I doubt it would have been much of a hit. If Journey had released Generations in the same way they did this week - I doubt it would have been a hit either.

6) Escape and Frontiers would be bombs in the 2000's. Sorry-true...

Don't know...it depends on how they are released in today's world.

7) Augeri hasn't contributed much writing in 8 years

Journey hasn't recorded much of Augeri's writing in 8yrs. Who knows what he brought to the table that wasn't recorded? If he releases a solo album, maybe we'll know what Journey missed.

Perry hasn't done any writing in years (that we know of)

Except remaster his OLD voice.

9) Perry is retired
10) Augeri is not

Perry will never say he's retired.
Augeri obviously isn't.

[jrnyman28]

One other thing...I would have to go and check, but I think the writing sessions with Jack Blades took place BEFORE Augeri was even hired. I think Neal commented on it somewhere that he had those songs and Augeri took off with them very naturaly. That interview may even be here on mr.com, not sure.

From MR.com Arrival Interview with Neal:

Andrew: Lets maybe go through the tracks on the album and just get your thoughts on it now that you've had a bit of time to live with them. "Higher Place"?

Neal: "Higher Place" was something that I had written a long time ago, I mean actually the music and, you know, we hadn't really done anything with it. I had the music sitting up at Jonathan's and we hadn't really worked on it. And we were running out of time and he was busy doing some other things and so at the last minute I had grabbed the remainder of my rock stuff that we didn't get to and I went up to Jack Blade's house and it was really the first time that Jack and I had ever written together and worked together and, you know, that was what came out of our first day of working together.

Andrew: "Signs of Life" is one of my favorite tracks on the album.

Neal: That was actually one of the first tracks that Jon and I worked on when we got back together. We started writing for a new record when we didn't know if we were going to have a band or not.

Andrew: This is after the Perry departure?

Neal: This was after we were just in, you know, we didn't know what we were going to do. The band was basically in hiatus, he had hurt himself, and we didn't know what was up. You know, I had nothing to do at the time and Jon didn't know what to do, and I said why don't we just start writing.

Andrew: Actually, I think that's about the time that I interviewed Jon last time, yeah.

Neal: I said, why don't we start writing, I mean, you know, maybe Steve will decide that he wants to come back, maybe he won't, but at least when we decide what we're going to do, and we figure out what's going on, we won't be starting right at the beginning again. So I felt that we used the time wisely and we just started writing right away and we started compiling material.

Andrew: Any other songs of that era that made the record?

Neal: Yeah. There is actually. "All the Things" was one of the earlier tracks that I worked on with Jon. "Signs of Life", "All the Things"...

Andrew: And it shows a great side of Steve's voice doesn't it on the record?

Neal: Yeah, definitely. He's a chameleon, Mr. Augeri has a lot of different things he can do and personally I think one of the best songs for him vocally on a record is like "Kiss Me Softly". I really like his R&B inflection.

Andrew: Yeah. Let's talk about that track. Another Jack Blades track. You and him?

Neal: This was, you know, Jack and I were sort of on a roll at this point and we had written like four or five tunes, and, you know, I just went up to his house and we were writing every day. And I didn't really have anything in mind, and I started playing this riff that I was messin' around with, for months and I actually pictured it much heavier, the same guitar riff that it opens up with, you know, but it was much faster, and it was heavier.
And so I was explaining it to Jack and he just went back and he hit like this loop that he had, this R&B loop that sort of sounded almost like a seal R&B loop on a drum. And then, you know, he goes, "Try playing that against this". And so I played the riff, and then all of a sudden, I was playing really clean Stratty like guitar, sort of like "Walks Like a Lady" type clean Strat tones, and we just went with it that way.
And, you know, by the end of the day, we had a completed song, and we sent the DAT out to Steve, and then Steve messed with it a bit more and he changed a few of the melodies on the front. He actually sang everything in a lower register.
I had written different melodies originally and he used pretty much the same phrasing, and he lowered everything and he sang it sort of in this low sexy type thing, you know? I was really happy with what I heard when it came back; I thought that he did a really great job on it.