So Tell Me How You Really Feel About IT!

[Ren]

I must admit, this site can be quiet entertaining. While I have seen Journey in concert during their present incarnation on four occasions, and thought they were great, the bottom line is that they will NEVER enjoy the accolades or attention that they did if the individual who led them to their greatest heights is in exile. Perry, love him or hate him, was the voice that made them a commercial success.
It seems to me that a great many of people who post on this site are living in a fantasy world. Most of the arguments are based in fantasy. Who, other than the mighty VH, has ever been successful replacing a lead singer? It just doesn’t happen! Also, no band has been so personified by a “voice” than Journey.
Of course the Sox have identified with Perry.
Kudos to Jon and Neal for trying to continue the franchise, but come on people!
If I’m not mistaken, Trial By Fire debuted at number 3 in ’96 on the Billboard charts after Journey had been gone for 9 years.
Why?
Perry!
That’s why. Let’s not delude ourselves folks!

[The_Noble_Cause]

NC.......
So where are these documented and chronicled facts??....... All I am asking anyone to do is show me where they are........... and let me read for myself......... I am not being deterimined to be "blissfully unaware" as you so put it.......... so I say........... put your money where your mouth is and show me where these well documented and chronicled facts in print..( and not just rumors )...from a reliable source.... .... and then I will decide for myself......... ( I would like to see you produce something in print...... but I don't think you will........ )

Oh.
So, it's documented proof of Perry's grade A assholishness you want, eh?
Well, for starters....
http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/

[jrnyman28]

So you are saying that Steve Perry only "helped" on the songs??.... Give me a break............then Neal and Jon only "helped" on the songs as well....... show me where Neal or Jon did most of the writing....... if you can point that out to me.....In print .... then maybe I might be swayed........ but I don't think so.............. I believe each one brought something to the table......... in which all these songs were created........ so all writers should be credited with 1/3 ownership..............

That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying that ANY song in which Perry was involved, NO MATTER HOW MUCH, has Perry credited FIRST. His name first does not mean he contributed the MOST to it. Just like Jon's name being LAST does not mean he contributed the least. The songs where all three co-wrote the songs are ALWAYS listed in the same order. And for TWO examples of this, look at the credits for Open Arms. When it came to songwriting credits it was ALWAYS Perry, Schon, Cain (and then anybody else if there was anybody else). If Schon did not get credit than it said Perry, Cain. If Cain did not get credit than it said Perry, Schon. If Perry did not get credit (did that happen any other time than Open Arms?) than it would say Schon, Cain.

[jrnyman28]

Perry, love him or hate him, was the voice that made them a commercial success.

He was the voice WHEN they made their commercial success. He is not the sole reason FOR their commercial success.

It seems to me that a great many of people who post on this site are living in a fantasy world. Most of the arguments are based in fantasy.

It is all a matter of perspective. It is only fantasy to you depending on which side you are on...

Who, other than the mighty VH, has ever been successful replacing a lead singer? It just doesn’t happen!

We have gone over this before. But for a couple of choices: Doobie Brothers, AC/DC, Genesis...

Also, no band has been so personified by a “voice” than Journey.

That is fair to say.

If I’m not mistaken, Trial By Fire debuted at number 3 in ’96 on the Billboard charts after Journey had been gone for 9 years.
Why?
Perry!
That’s why. Let’s not delude ourselves folks!

No, it was because it was a FULL reunion of the lineup MOST fans remembered. It was because Sony launched a publicity campaign. It was because Journey never said goodbye, they simply disappeared. If it was all because of Perry, why didn't his solo material do better?

Journey's success was most notable when Perry was in the band...yes. But it was due to all members involved. TBF was fueled by a reunion.

[jrnyman28]

then I will go with Steve, Neal, and Jon each brought something to the table in a collaborative endevor...... not just one or two doing the whole thing...........

Who ever said it was all one or two doing the whole tyhing. NO ONE has ever said that it was not collaborative.

[Clasicrockldy]

NC.......
So where are these documented and chronicled facts??....... All I am asking anyone to do is show me where they are........... and let me read for myself......... I am not being deterimined to be "blissfully unaware" as you so put it.......... so I say........... put your money where your mouth is and show me where these well documented and chronicled facts in print..( and not just rumors )...from a reliable source.... .... and then I will decide for myself......... ( I would like to see you produce something in print...... but I don't think you will........ )

Oh.
So, it's documented proof of Perry's grade A assholishness you want, eh?
Well, for starters....
http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/

NC......

I have this article already.....and I have read it.... ....... it does show from Herbie's point of view....... in which he is entitled to his opinion........I don't doubt that Perry... or Schon........ or Cain can be a pain in the behind...( Schon and Cain are not perfect angels either. )...... What I am looking for is information........ IN PRINT......... of who wrote most of the songs....... and who just "helped" out here and there......... is that so hard to find???..........

[jrnyman28]

What I am looking for is information........ IN PRINT......... of who wrote most of the songs....... and who just "helped" out here and there......... is that so hard to find???..........

That does not exist. NOWHERE is there a % break down of who wrote what. Why is it so important to you?

[Clasicrockldy]

What I am looking for is information........ IN PRINT......... of who wrote most of the songs....... and who just "helped" out here and there......... is that so hard to find???..........

That does not exist. NOWHERE is there a % break down of who wrote what. Why is it so important to you?

jrnyman28.......

It is all because of what I read in one of Deano's posts......... or really the way Deano put it......... that DSB was written by two other guys...like Perry had no input or ideas for the song........ so that piqued my curiosity to see if there was anything in print on who wrote what and how much.......

[thebook]

So you are saying that Steve Perry only "helped" on the songs??.... Give me a break............then Neal and Jon only "helped" on the songs as well....... show me where Neal or Jon did most of the writing....... if you can point that out to me.....In print .... then maybe I might be swayed........ but I don't think so.............. I believe each one brought something to the table......... in which all these songs were created........ so all writers should be credited with 1/3 ownership..............

That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying that ANY song in which Perry was involved, NO MATTER HOW MUCH, has Perry credited FIRST. His name first does not mean he contributed the MOST to it. Just like Jon's name being LAST does not mean he contributed the least. The songs where all three co-wrote the songs are ALWAYS listed in the same order. And for TWO examples of this, look at the credits for Open Arms. When it came to songwriting credits it was ALWAYS Perry, Schon, Cain (and then anybody else if there was anybody else). If Schon did not get credit than it said Perry, Cain. If Cain did not get credit than it said Perry, Schon. If Perry did not get credit (did that happen any other time than Open Arms?) than it would say Schon, Cain.

not quite true, look at the "dream after dream" credits, they do not list Perry first on the songs.

[OpeningAct]

Hey Deano..........

You should get your facts straight.......or at least say it in the correct way........ DSB was written by Steve Perry, Neal Schon and Jon Cain........ in that order........ so it is partly Steve's song..........I think you need to read up on your Journey facts.............

Perry was listed first on every Journey song he helped with. It has nothing to do with the amount of work he is being credited with.

So you are saying that Steve Perry only "helped" on the songs??.... Give me a break............then Neal and Jon only "helped" on the songs as well....... show me where Neal or Jon did most of the writing....... if you can point that out to me.....In print .... then maybe I might be swayed........ but I don't think so.............. I believe each one brought something to the table......... in which all these songs were created........ so all writers should be credited with 1/3 ownership..............

It's been long rumored in the Journey fan community that Perry demands his name shows up first. One incident that is frequently cited is how one of Perry's cowriters for Street Talk basicaly wrote that entire song, "Foolish Heart",...and became incensed over how Perry took credit for that song.

There's more.
Perhaps the sagacious Monker can chime in here.

NC.......

I would like to see something in print.......... not just rumors....... if it is in print......... then maybe I would consider changing my mind.......... but until I see it.............. in print............. then I will go with Steve, Neal, and Jon each brought something to the table in a collaborative endevor...... not just one or two doing the whole thing...........

And then there is the expression...don't believe everything you read.

[Rockindeano]

Hey Deano..........

You should get your facts straight.......or at least say it in the correct way.......

Yep, totally mistyped..Meant to say written WITH two other guys..

DSB was written by Steve Perry, Neal Schon and Jon Cain........ in that order........

Uh, no, YOU get YOUR facts correct..Just because Perry is listed first doesn't mean shit. I GUARANTEE YOU, Perry couldn't write that piano melody.

.........I think you need to read up on your Journey facts.............

Honey, I know more about Journey than you ever will..Why don't you go back to the TWIGS board and discuss all their "success." Like there is any... Who the Hell are you?

[Monker]

This is such an ancient argument.

My argument for this has ALWAYS been that you have absolutely NO IDEA who wrote more, who wrote less, who wrote what. You have no idea of why Perry gets a writing credit, or why he didn't, or why Perry is first and Jonathan last.

You want documented proof of something that can't be given. Why don't you give documented proof on how you know Perry wrote 'most' of a certain song that he is listed first on?

Of course Perry had some kinda input on DSB...However, I doubt very much that anybody here knows WHAT or HOW MUCH of an input he had.

The FACT remains that DSB was written by two other people and IS a JOURNEY song, not a Perry song. You can choose to ignore that fact but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

[Clasicrockldy]

Honey, I know more about Journey than you ever will..Why don't you go back to the TWIGS board and discuss all their "success." Like there is any... Who the Hell are you?[/quote]

Deano.....

First off........ don't call me "honey"......... you keep that and say it to ones who will kiss your behind.............

Two......... I don't know what you are talking about when you say "Go Back To The TWIGS board".......... I am a fan of Journey ....... have been since before Perry...........just because I might not know all the facts doesn't mean I am not one..........

and Three............. why do you ask "Who The Hell Am I?".......... it is none of your business.........

[Rockindeano]

Honey, I know more about Journey than you ever will..Why don't you go back to the TWIGS board and discuss all their "success." Like there is any... Who the Hell are you?

Deano.....

First off........ don't call me "honey"......... you keep that and say it to ones who will kiss your behind.............

Two......... I don't know what you are talking about when you say "Go Back To The TWIGS board".......... I am a fan of Journey ....... have been since before Perry...........just because I might not know all the facts doesn't mean I am not one..........

and Three............. why do you ask "Who The Hell Am I?".......... it is none of your business......... [/quote]

You showed me........I notice you cannot admit you were wrong...

[Clasicrockldy]

Honey, I know more about Journey than you ever will..Why don't you go back to the TWIGS board and discuss all their "success." Like there is any... Who the Hell are you?

Deano.....

First off........ don't call me "honey"......... you keep that and say it to ones who will kiss your behind.............

Two......... I don't know what you are talking about when you say "Go Back To The TWIGS board".......... I am a fan of Journey ....... have been since before Perry...........just because I might not know all the facts doesn't mean I am not one..........

and Three............. why do you ask "Who The Hell Am I?".......... it is none of your business.........

You showed me........I notice you cannot admit you were wrong...[/quote]

What are you talking about??.......... showed you what??......... I found out what the "TWIGS" board is............ it is the Styx forum.......... I, personally, don't like the music Styx puts out.......... it is not the style of music that I listen to..........

And wrong about what??....... I just stated an opinion...... which is my own............ which is what this forum is for........... and if you don't like it or agree with it....... so be it.......... but just don't come out and say someone is wrong without letting them know what you are talking about......

Geeze, Deano....... put it out there............ don't make people guess to what you are thinking.............

Jrnyman28.......... I didn't say that Steve wrote most of any songs in the Journey catalogue, did I?............... all I said was that there was 3 people listed as writers for the songs.......... not two......... and I was going by what is listed in the Time3 book........... and how it was written in there........... so don't go putting things out that I didn't say.............

[NoMoreTails]

If Perry did not get credit (did that happen any other time than Open Arms?) than it would say Schon, Cain.

I believe jrnyman28 intended to say Faithfully was the only time during the Perry/Cain era that Perry did not get a writing credit.

But on the subject of Perry aways being listed first even though he did not have the most input to a song, Open Arms should be "proof" enough to anyone open minded enough to accept it. Jonathan has commented more than once on the songs origin, it was written when he was in the Babys and John Waite called in rubbish or something to that affect. Even though Perry's contribution to the song was neither greater nor was it the original idea, he is still listed before Jon in the credits.

[Red13JoePa]

What's with the dotdotdotdotdotdotdotdotdots all over your posts CRL?

[NealIsGod]

Clasicrockldy - Why............... do you write................. like this? Sentences.............. only need................ one period..............

[Red13JoePa]

Get ready, NIG.
I think the ol' "I hope Andrew's proud of the way you die hards make newcomers feel" tragic victim post is coming

[NealIsGod]

Get ready, NIG.
I think the ol' "I hope Andrew's proud of the way you die hards make newcomers feel" tragic victim post is coming

LOL. Yeah, it's a comin'.

[Red13JoePa]

Bloodboiling, is that you?

[OpeningAct]

Honey, I know more about Journey than you ever will..Why don't you go back to the TWIGS board and discuss all their "success." Like there is any... Who the Hell are you?

Deano.....

First off........ don't call me "honey"......... you keep that and say it to ones who will kiss your behind.............

Two......... I don't know what you are talking about when you say "Go Back To The TWIGS board".......... I am a fan of Journey ....... have been since before Perry...........just because I might not know all the facts doesn't mean I am not one..........

and Three............. why do you ask "Who The Hell Am I?".......... it is none of your business.........

You showed me........I notice you cannot admit you were wrong...[/quote] And YOU do????

[Clasicrockldy]

Clasicrockldy - Why............... do you write................. like this? Sentences.............. only need................ one period..............

NIG.

Why does the dots matter to you so much?? You sure do pick stupid things to talk about.

And to Red13JoePA, who said that a tragic victim post is coming, it isn't coming from me. I don't give a hoot about it. But if you LIVE for that, then go pick on someone who will play the "tragic victim" so you can get your fix.

[Monker]

Jrnyman28.......... I didn't say that Steve wrote most of any songs in the Journey catalogue, did I?............... all I said was that there was 3 people listed as writers for the songs.......... not two

And, you continued stating your "Journey facts" with "Perry, Schon, Cain IN THAT ORDER". Which, to me and probably everybody else on the forum, meant that you are implying the order meant Perry was the 'main writer' of "Don't Stop Believin'" If that is NOT what you meant, WHY DID YOU POINT TO THE ORDER OF THE WRITERS?

Now, it seems you are backtracking and repeating exactly what everybody has been saying - that three people wrote DSB.

[Clasicrockldy]

Jrnyman28.......... I didn't say that Steve wrote most of any songs in the Journey catalogue, did I?............... all I said was that there was 3 people listed as writers for the songs.......... not two

And, you continued stating your "Journey facts" with "Perry, Schon, Cain IN THAT ORDER". Which, to me and probably everybody else on the forum, meant that you are implying the order meant Perry was the 'main writer' of "Don't Stop Believin'" If that is NOT what you meant, WHY DID YOU POINT TO THE ORDER OF THE WRITERS?

Now, it seems you are backtracking and repeating exactly what everybody has been saying - that three people wrote DSB.

Ahh, now it is the infamous Monker, chiming in on this. All I was saying in the very beginning is that there were 3 writers, not two, as to what Deano had written. And I was only taking information from the source, which was the Time3 book. And if you want to nitpick on the Time3 book, and how they listed the writers, then go for it. If you thought I meant something else, like Steve Perry was the main writer, that is on you and anyone else in this forum. I didn't say that Steve Perry WAS the main writer at all.

[PROPERRY]

Jrnyman28.......... I didn't say that Steve wrote most of any songs in the Journey catalogue, did I?............... all I said was that there was 3 people listed as writers for the songs.......... not two

And, you continued stating your "Journey facts" with "Perry, Schon, Cain IN THAT ORDER". Which, to me and probably everybody else on the forum, meant that you are implying the order meant Perry was the 'main writer' of "Don't Stop Believin'" If that is NOT what you meant, WHY DID YOU POINT TO THE ORDER OF THE WRITERS?

Now, it seems you are backtracking and repeating exactly what everybody has been saying - that three people wrote DSB.

I know in one of the articles that Perry commented that he was looking out the window of his Hotel in late hours of the night & saw people walking around. He later was with Jon & they started writing the song DSB.

Now that doesn't mean Neal wasn't a part of the song writing of DSB. Neal probaly came in later & helped write some portion of the song too, so therefore they are all listed, as writers of the song. It doesn't matter who's name went first on the credits, as long as they all got their name listed, right?

Lori

[Clasicrockldy]

Jrnyman28.......... I didn't say that Steve wrote most of any songs in the Journey catalogue, did I?............... all I said was that there was 3 people listed as writers for the songs.......... not two

And, you continued stating your "Journey facts" with "Perry, Schon, Cain IN THAT ORDER". Which, to me and probably everybody else on the forum, meant that you are implying the order meant Perry was the 'main writer' of "Don't Stop Believin'" If that is NOT what you meant, WHY DID YOU POINT TO THE ORDER OF THE WRITERS?

Now, it seems you are backtracking and repeating exactly what everybody has been saying - that three people wrote DSB.

I know in one of the articles that Perry commented that he was looking out the window of his Hotel in late hours of the night & saw people walking around. He later was with Jon & they started writing the song DSB.

Now that doesn't mean Neal wasn't a part of the song writing of DSB. Neal probaly came in later & helped write some portion of the song too, so therefore they are all listed, as writers of the song. It doesn't matter who's name went first on the credits, as long as they all got their name listed, right?

Lori

Exactly Lori.......... thank you........

[NealIsGod]

Clasicrockldy - Why............... do you write................. like this? Sentences.............. only need................ one period..............

NIG.

Why does the dots matter to you so much?? You sure do pick stupid things to talk about.

Nothing you say matters to me. People who have to write in different colors and use bizarre writing styles obviously feel that the content of their posts doesn't make them stand out, so they have to do SOMEthing to make people notice them. Just my $.02.

[Clasicrockldy]

Clasicrockldy - Why............... do you write................. like this? Sentences.............. only need................ one period..............

NIG.

Why does the dots matter to you so much?? You sure do pick stupid things to talk about.

Nothing you say matters to me. People who have to write in different colors and use bizarre writing styles obviously feel that the content of their posts doesn't make them stand out, so they have to do SOMEthing to make people notice them. Just my $.02.

Obiviously, it does matter to you, or you wouldn't be still talking about it.

And btw, like the name "NealIsGod" doesn't stand out??

[Clasicrockldy]

deleted second post.